all 45 comments

[–]Musky 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I actually have read a little about this, it's recommended these days that you wait and see how things develop and avoid surgery unless necessary.

In the past I believe it was typical to chop off the twig and berries and raise the child as a girl.

[–]DerpDerp3001[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, surgically removing them would make a person who is against gender affirming surgery a hypocrite.

[–]SueBoyle 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You can do what you want in that nonsense chat but over here you don't play around we have rules here.

Don't give medical advice if you're not a licensed internet doctor.

We're going to need to run a breathalyzer test on you also.

Please stand on your left foot tilt your head all the way back and sing the Mary Poppins theme song backwards.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That was John Money's idea, who started the gender cult, and was a pedophile who abused these children. Ironically in doing so he demonstreated the existence of the transsexual, when his "girl" Brenda ended up with dysphoria before finding out the truth.

[–]NastyWetSmear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

I assume the standard process is cosmetic surgery to make the most prominent genitals the only ones. If the baby mostly has a penis, you take away anything that isn't a penis. If the baby mostly has a vagina, you take away anything that isn't a vagina.

I also assume, for the purpose of your hypothetical, you want the baby to have neither and have the doctors say that they can't determine what genitals are more prominent.

In which case, listen to the medical professionals advice. If they demand I choose? I guess we hang on until they have to start school and see if we can determine which way they are leaning? If they don't have any prominent genitals I think it's safe to say they are never going to have working ones of either kind, sadly. :(

[–]DerpDerp3001[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Though usually only sometimes a person that is intersex is truly intersex (i.e. has neither testes or ovaries but rather ambiguous gonads), usually it develops that way due to hormones a male with Androgen Insensitivity Sydrome where internally, the child is male but possess female or ambiguous genitalia, and for females it is Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia which does the opposite such as that one news article where a man thought he had urinary problems but discovered he was actually menustrating and had ovaries.

[–]DerpDerp3001[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was more curious about what you'd raise your child as? Boy? Girl? Neither?

[–]NastyWetSmear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ohhh, I see. So the question is more like: "The doctors recommend no surgery, now you have to raise your child until they are of age. How to do you treat them?"

Good one!

I guess the best bet is to pick a very androgynous name, then raise them normally. I don't really raise children as one or the other, rather their natural tendency as a boy or girl comes out in the way they act. We're going to be limited in our choice of clothing and such, trying to dress the poor kid so it could pass as either sex, but I think the real challenge is waiting to see what kind of body shape and behaviour they display so we can determine what things we can't let them do... Like it's fine if the kid wants to dress in pink, hang out with the girls, giggle, play with My Little Pony toys... But if she's 6 foot 2 and built like her dad, then wants to play on the girls teams, suddenly her mother and I have a problem. :(

"Honey, your magical junk has made you built like a boy. You'll literally kill those other girls."

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I assume the standard process is cosmetic surgery to make the most prominent genitals the only ones.

Intersex does not mean that the person has a two sets of genitals, one male and one female.

"Intersex" refers to many different developmental disorders which affect the expression of sex. Some of these conditions are rarely detected because they may cause infertility but no other obvious signs.

The Intersex Society of North American recommends that disorders that directly impact the child (e.g. the lack of an opening for the urinary tract) should be corrected by surgery but that purely cosmetic surgery to match some stereotype of "normality" should be delayed until the child is old enough to understand the risks and decide for themselves.

[–]NastyWetSmear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't say it did, I was responding to the original question, which said:

... but rather looks like a hybrid.

I took that in the literal sense, to mean that the child has been born with deformed genitals and the purpose of the question was for me to choose which one to use.

Otherwise the question doesn't make much sense: "Your child is intersex, but the doctors can't tell, and there's no physical indication. What do you do?"

... Nothing, I guess? How would I even know?

[–]SueBoyle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

These medical procedures are not fully tested or approved, and should therefore never be performed on children.

[–]NastyWetSmear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

That sounds reasonable. What's the current, accepted process?

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Unfortunately, in the US some outdated practices that can involve lying to the patient and their parents, and unnecessary, harmful surgery, are still being applied. For example, if the doctor thinks that a girl baby has a clitoris which is "too big", they will recommend a clitoridectomy (surgical reduction of the clitoris by removing some or all of it). This can have devastating results on the woman's ability to feel sexual pleasure and orgasm.

The Intersex Society of North American recommends that disorders that directly impact the child (e.g. the lack of an opening for the urinary tract) should be corrected by surgery but that purely cosmetic surgery to match some stereotype of "normality" should be delayed until the child is old enough to understand the risks and decide for themselves.

CC u/DerpDerp3001

[–]NastyWetSmear 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess it depends on the extent of the deformity, but otherwise it makes sense to let the child grow to an age where they can make that choice educated - So long as we aren't impacting their life in some other way.

[–]SueBoyle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

My goal would be to create a safe and nurturing environment where the child can explore their identity and make informed decisions about their own body as they grow up. It's crucial to be sensitive to their needs, listen to their feelings, and provide resources and education about intersexuality and gender diversity. Ultimately, my aim would be to let the child lead the way in defining their own gender identity and expression.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Intersex has nothing to do with "third sex" or "gender identity".

Intersex covers many different disorders of development which may, or may not, need treatment. The right approach will depend on which specific condition they have and what disorders occur because of that.

The Intersex Society of North American recommends that disorders that directly impact the child (e.g. the lack of an opening for the urinary tract) should be corrected by surgery but that purely cosmetic surgery to match some stereotype of "normality" should be delayed until the child is old enough to decide what they want themselves.

[–]SueBoyle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Can we just clarify that there is an obvious difference between a child that is born with a birth defect and these men that have a meth induced gender dysphoria?

Video: meth induced dysphoria.

[–]NastyWetSmear 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I don't think u/SueBoyle is talking about raising a child like one of those insane TikTok parents who demands that their child undergo hormone replacement because they said they liked blue instead of pink, u/weavilsatemyface. Just that the child be permitted to decide which kind of cosmetic surgery is right for them once they are older... Don't want to roll the dice, lop off their dangly bits and end up with a kid who naturally leans towards being a man, but you mutilated him on a whim.

Like you said, the cosmetic stuff should wait.

[–]SueBoyle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just that the child be permitted to decide which kind of cosmetic surgery is right for them once they are older...

I'm a little unclear by your statement there, do you want a "child" to be able to decide on surgical issues are you want a person that is illegal adult to be able to decide that they want surgery?

My opinion will probably differ from yours, but the intent of the op of this thread is to try to find an angle from which they can legally allow children to consent to surgery without their parents permission.

They are looking for any angle they can find to allow them to be able to cut off your daughter's breasts and to cut off your son's penis and testicles WITHOUT THE PARENT'S PERMISSION.

[–]NastyWetSmear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'd want the legal adult to make the call - as in, the child once it's an adult.
I could see an exception being made for a child that's entered puberty with deformed genitals in the rare instance where no doctor can determine their sex. Where parents, child and doctor all agree that they are entering an age where having that deformity is worse than waiting and being confident that the choice was made by an adult. It's a matter of weighing up the circumstances. I wouldn't recommend that same leniency for someone who wanted similar cosmetic changes on a healthy body. For example, a 16 year old girl and her parents wanting to come in and slap on a pair of bang'n double D's on their kid - Your body is healthy and normal, these are choices you can make when you're an adult.

If we're talking about attempting to "Transition" a child, especially without the parents permission, that seems patently ridiculous to me. The difference between a scientifically testable and demonstrable physical abnormality and a vaguely understood mental and social condition are pretty vast. Additionally, though my understanding is limited, the side effects of attempting to cosmetically swap genitals are... Numerous and often life altering, as opposed to attempting to correct deformed genitals. One is shaving away some broken branches while the other is trying to get an apple tree to grow tomatoes.

[–]SueBoyle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am 60 years old and I was the class of 80, and I can't remember one child in my school that was transgender.. I can remember one young boy that tried to get with me when I was in about the 10th grade.. but he didn't push it and I really didn't understand what he was doing until years later..

I think the trans movement has gotten way out of hand and the truth is I think they're losing traction now because people are waking up and saying no more.

[–]Vulptex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's exactly how I feel. I wouldn't even be shocked if I was secretly born intersex and my parents decided they wanted a boy, and never told me. I highly doubt that, but it would make sense. Realistically I think sex dysphoria is itself an intersex disorder.

Also, that's Ed.

[–]NastyWetSmear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I understand that some people around here have certain feelings about Ed, but it doesn't matter to me who said it if it's right... At least, in my opinion. It might be a case of the broken clock being right twice a day, but if Hitler tells me that eating broken glass is bad for my health I'm not scarfing down a big plate of it to spite him.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If he's confusing you, that's why. He's trolling.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That scenario would give the kid a chance to later actually choose whether to a boy or a girl. Rarely does anyone have a say in that, unlike what the gender narrative says, this is a very special opportunity; don't just steal it away.

[–]NastyWetSmear 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I was thinking less about them getting to choose, and more about what nature naturally tends them towards. I guess it's not impossible that they would end up totally genderless and without any kind of natural leaning while also being bi-sexual, making the choice totally arbitrary, but that's a lot of dice rolls ending up as snake eyes.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Why is some arbitrary appeal to "nature" more important than a person's quality of life?

[–]NastyWetSmear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Because it isn't arbitrary. I'm talking about the natural inclination of males to be males and females to be females. The arbitrary part would be choosing a sex for your child before they started to bloom into an adult, randomly decided based on how they felt at the time of their childhood, or what they thought being a man or a woman meant, rather than what they grew into and displayed.

I might have been unclear, but what I'm suggesting is that you let your child grow and, most times, their natural proclivity towards one sex or another would inform that decision. Letting a child pick before they are an adult and their body and brain has matured would be a mistake. In the exceptionally rare cases where the child is born intersex without some dominant traits or physically apparent markers and grows up into an adult still without any clear signs of the physical and mental determination of their sex, sure, let'em just pick based on some feeling they have - Not the greatest way to do it, but it's as fallible as the other choices, and no worse than, say, flipping a coin.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay, I understand. That's the same as my idea. I probably would've made the wrong decision as a child myself, because I was taught that girls did nothing but play with pink princess doll houses (nor did I fully understand that my aversion to such things was obviously induced by fear and shame). Even I accepted most things without question at that age. I was even aware that I'd prefer having the other body, but could not grasp that that's the only real difference there is for most of my life.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Intersex covers a huge variety of conditions. It depends on what specific condition the child has.

Have a long, long talk with experts on intersex conditions and don't let any doctor push me into immediate surgery. Talk to people in intersex support groups to find out what to expect.

[–][deleted]  (6 children)


    [–]DerpDerp3001[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    I would like a serious answer please. What would you do? I'd like to hear your actual opinion. A medical condition is not a gender identity.

    [–]SueBoyle 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

    I would send the kid to Reddit..

    [–]DerpDerp3001[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Why? Why would you send that hypothetical infant to reddit when a medical condition of having an indeterminate sex has nothing to do with being transgender? And I don't believe you can physically send it to reddit (unless you are telling some reddit inc employees to adopt the child.)

    [–]SueBoyle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I think I'm starting to get your drift..

    We would obviously order a postnatal abortion, with full Doctor supervision, just to keep things on the legal up and up.

    You can't expect some kid to go through his whole life like that,

    [–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    That's Ed. He's trolling you.

    [–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    medical condition of having an indeterminate sex has nothing to do with being transgender

    It's sad that they've made this so. People like me and our struggles are erased, dismissed and laughed off by everyone. And everyone is done listening; there's no getting them to understand what this is even.

    [–][deleted]  (8 children)


      [–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

      That is objectively wrong.

      [–][deleted]  (6 children)


        [–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

        Then what's it called when someone has XXY chromosomes?

        [–][deleted]  (4 children)


          [–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

          What about androgen insensitivity syndrome?

          I suspect you are opposed to the concept of intersex simply because the LGBTQ decided it was part of their community.

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)


            [–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            It's not normal. I don't think anyone ever claimed it is.

            [–]DerpDerp3001[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            That is not how it works. With an extra X, it causes the person to develop differently (usually with slight differences such as infertility and less male secondary sex-characteristics, but there are times where it looks much more apparaent with female sex characterisics, and even ambiguous looking genitals.) So genetically, they are not male.

            [–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            I don't think that's quite right. Usually an intersex person still develops as either male or female, albeit often with some oddities (unfortunately this often includes being a transsexual). In other cases it's almost unnoticeable, and only a chromosome test could reveal it.

            [–]Mcheetah 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            They'd have to be aborted.

            [–]DerpDerp3001[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            It's difficult to tell until birth.