all 29 comments

[–]clitoriana 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sometimes it feels like we can't do anything without somebody shitting on us. We could try to explain this kind of thing to them over and over but they still won't listen because it was always only coming from a place of hating bisexuals. So our explanations and lamentations typically fall on deaf ears. I am starting to care less and less... our dating histories and futures are none of their business. They're not invited lol. 🤭

I say we be as loud and proud as we wanna be, even if we get shit on for it, because god knows all anybody else has to say about it is that we're liars, cheaters, and fakers. We have to be there for each other since no one else will.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am starting to care less and less

Honestly same. Like, you think bisexuals are whores, unfaithful, liars, gross, etc? Cool. Whatever. But when they try to blame us for their biphobia that's when I get pissed off.

Like how if we come out, we're 'doing it for attention/not really same sex attracted/'well you've only dated men, sooo...' And if we don't come out it's 'well that's bisexuals fault for not being out and proud.' Fuck you. All of you.

And I get the resentment. I really do. it makes my skin crawl when I see other bisexuals calling themselves gay and speaking over LGs. I hate when I see straight people claiming to be bi when they really ARE just attention seeking narcs. LGs are always happy to trash bisexuals in those situations and I agree with them there.

Yet none of them want to own up to how often LGs use 'bi' as a stepping stone before coming out as gay and how damaging that is to us. It gives people a reason to think bisexuality isn't real because 'well every bi person I've known eventually came out as gay so you can only be gay or straight. bisexuality doesn't exist and you need to pick a side'. "B-b-but figuring out your sexuality is haaaard. It's confuuuusing." Yeah I get that. We've all been there. But if that's the case then just fucking wait. Don't claim a label you aren't sure about. Wait. If you aren't sure yet, oh, I dunno, say you aren't sure instead of watering down the term 'bisexual'. Bisexual is not a synonym for 'unsure' or 'questioning' and I'm sick of LGs thinking it's harmless and okay to use it as such when they're figuring themselves out.

And that's not even counting the aforementioned blatant biphobia I've seen, mostly from lesbians directed at bi women. How come we have to answer for the BS in our community against LGs but they don't have to answer to their BS against bisexuals? Oh I know, because no one gives a shit about us anyway. We're all attention seeking 'pick-me's apparently so why should they care.

I say we be as loud and proud as we wanna be, even if we get shit on for it, because god knows all anybody else has to say about it is that we're liars, cheaters, and fakers. We have to be there for each other since no one else will.

Absolutely. I just had to blow off some steam because I was like.....really? Do you not hear yourself? "b-b-but most bi's end up het paired!! so I don't have to believe them when they say they're same sex attracted!! why are you making me think critically?? -sob-" Because, why the fuck would I fight an uphill battle trying to find a girlfriend in a homophobic red state when there's a cute guy at work who likes me? Yes, we're same sex attracted, but we're also human. Generally, humans like to take the path of least resistance. I know some of them are resentful we can 'pass' as straight if we want but...that's not our fault. Get over it.

[–]BiHorror 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Good lord... I understand this completely. Like, what do you expect? The sexual orientation of the majority is HETEROSEXUAL. Of course, most bisexuals are going to be in opposite sex relationships, alongside most bisexuals are going to be leaning opposite because of that.

For this so called “let’s be allies against the big evil trans!” They (some LG, it’s not all of them obviously) sure love to throw bisexuals under the bus for what individuals do. But if you were bring some shit that they have done onto them? You’ll get struck with the “you homophobe!!!!” Real quick.

Edit: I forgot about that whole “tainted by dick” some twats do because... So, are you also going to be throwing the not “gold star” lesbians out of dating pool then? Because some of them have dated and even slept with men before they came out. The same goes for some gay men who had relationships, gotten married, and even children with women.

[–]PatsyStone 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'll give lesbians the benefit of the doubt on this "tainted by dick" thing since I've never heard a woman say it in real life. It appears to be an internet thing only, from my experience, which makes it dubious. It could stem from the context of social media and dating apps or it could be intentionally divisive bullshit coming from a variety of sources.

[–]clitoriana 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I've also fortunately never seen anyone in real life say it. The unfortunate thing is sometimes posts on the internet like "I don't want a girl that's been dicked down by a man already" (something a lesbian on twitter posted) can get a surprising amount of positive attention (shares, likes, commentary that agrees or finds it funny rather than points out the repulsive misogyny). Still, I'd like to think more people will denounce such a statement than agree with it.

[–]PatsyStone 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I remember some spectacular misogyny from accounts claiming to be lesbians on the old DroptheT Reddit sub, one psycho claimed bisexual women couldn't be trusted because semen survives for six days inside the vagina and you never know. Who were those people really? Would they express those sentiments in other contexts? People speak and behave differently based on what they're doing and who they're talking to.

I've always hit it off with lesbians and gotten along with the ones I know irl, but I've always been kept at a certain distance. I've never been called dirty or treated as less than them though!

The lesbian community exists to facilitate lifelong monogamous relationships between women, and whether you're invited in reflects how much faith they have that you can assist with that goal. From my vantage point a lot of lesbians get treated poorly within their own community because they are seen as impeding that goal, or their needs and issues are ignored in favor of the community's commitment to... well... commitment.

Let's not forget that gays and lesbians often have a hard time fitting in within their own communities and can be abused and treated with disdain by each other.

[–]BiHorror 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Let's not forget that gays and lesbians often have a hard time fitting in within their own communities and can be abused and treated with disdain by each other

I have seen that before and ffs, it can get ugly which is pretty fuckin' sad. I mean, didn't we have one user on the other sub (I believe he was a gay man? He got banned) who was pro LG but had a disdain towards bis... And any gays and lesbians who didn't agree with him. I remember him trashing on some lesbians because they dare use lesbophobia as a term and some other topics.

[–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Eh, that's true. Although, I remember making a post similar about it once in LGBDropTheT and apparently some didn't like that so meh.

[–]PatsyStone 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The old Drop the T was full of lesbian feminists who blame all of their problems on bisexual women. It was a cesspit- they successfully drove me away. Glad they're now quarantined somewhere else. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't part of a troll infestation, though.

I remember an incident on truebisexuals where someone who regularly posted and said they were a teenage girl had a hate thread started against her on truelesbians where some of the usual suspects absolutely belittled her and, honestly, sexually debased her for being attracted to women. It was bizarre and appalling. I wrote to the mods telling them they needed to ban all the women involved because of how obscene and derogatory the things they were writing were. They deleted the thread, but I still saw some of the usernames posting when I checked in a couple of days later. Disgusting.

I'm committed to getting along with lesbians, and I know many kind and lovely lesbians irl. Lesbians online are so toxic it's hard not to see behavior like this and not feel a different way about them. They don't rein in their crazies at all.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But if you were bring some shit that they have done onto them? You’ll get struck with the “you homophobe!!!!” Real quick.

And that's exactly why I usually steer clear of bringing it up on droptheT but I'm starting to not give a shit anymore.

[–]BiHorror 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I tried to keep that attitude too but sometimes it just gets so frustrating. I even took a break a while back (and now, which explains why I took like 2000 years to reply back so sorry ').

Another thing, I forgot to mention... if we are going to use dating history, then what about LGB who haven't dated at all? And don't plan to date? Are they actually asexuals then?

[–]PenseePansy 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

THANK YOU. Yeah, I'm pretty fed up with having this "we gay people require proof of your SSA credentials!" crap directed at us, too. As though it's up to them whether or not we qualify as bi. Oh yes, HOMOSEXUALS must be the experts on THAT. Dafuq?

I think what this comes down to is their unwillingness to accept us on our own terms; they demand that we conceal the side of ourselves which they don't share-- that we act like their Mini-Mes. So they're not really recognizing us as bisexual at all. In effect, by "editing out" our opposite-sex-attracted side, they're recasting us as homosexuals. And if our dating history is opposite-sex-only... we're not cooperating.

Bi erasure yet again! Gay people need to start dealing with us as who we really are-- in full, not just the part that's convenient. Until they accept the way in which we're DIFFERENT from them, rather than the same, they're not getting us at all. And it's high time that they did.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think what this comes down to is their unwillingness to accept us on our own terms; they demand that we conceal the side of ourselves which they don't share-- that we act like their Mini-Mes. So they're not really recognizing us as bisexual at all. In effect, by "editing out" our opposite-sex-attracted side, they're recasting us as homosexuals. And if our dating history is opposite-sex-only... we're not cooperating.

That's a really good point I hadn't thought about. And they only do it when it's convenient for them. That thread on droptheT about that bisexual man who was claiming to be gay because he'd only ever been in love with one woman? They tore him apart over there, INSISTING he was bisexual. And I agreed. It doesn't matter the degree to which you are attracted to men and women, as long as you ARE attracted to men and women.

But flip that around and it's a bisexual who's mostly dated their hetero sex? NOPE. PROBLEM. STRAIGHT UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. Makes no fucking sense.

[–]usehername 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think that lesbians and gays don't understand the ways that bi erasure is harmful to them. It doesn't seem like a big deal for them to say, "oh, she's not bi, she's only been with men so she's straight", and I understand where they're coming from. These people haven't shared in nearly as many struggles as gays and lesbians have for their sexuality, but even if they're not out, they probably still feel self-loathing because of homophobia they witness and their own SSA. However, if this "straight" (bi) woman can be attracted to women, and maybe even end up in a relationship with one, and then perhaps end that relationship and end up with a man again, what are the implications for lesbians, especially lesbians who come out later in life, perhaps after dating exclusively men? This is why dating history is not an accurate measure of sexual orientation.

But on the other side of the coin, to say, "oh, she's not bi, she's only been with women so she's a lesbian (not a view widely shared on s/LGBDropTheT, but shared among the wider population)" is clearly a problem because this "lesbian" is also be attracted to men, fucking up the rigid definition of "lesbian" for all of them. This idea is easier to understand, because it's basically the TRA stance we're fighting against of, "attracted to women and "trans" women (feminine males)? lesbian."

Also great points.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's a very good point. People don't tend to care about things until they are personally affected. Maybe we should start bringing up the ways in which watering down the meaning of bisexual has negative effects on the definitions of 'gay' and 'lesbian' too.

[–]MarkJefferson 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

But I'm getting real tired of people using our dating history as a way to say we aren't actually bisexual. If that were the case we could look at every closeted gay person as not actually gay because the had exclusively hetero relationships before coming out.

It is an interesting Double Standard on the Burden of Proof, isn't it? And "proof" even has to be shown repeatedly to some, even though once should be enough- but requesting "proof" itself is already asking too much for any sexual orientation, really. Which just goes to show how much Bisexuality is seen as legit. Which means we have a long way to go towards Actual, and not just Token acceptance. It's highly hypocritical for anyone who imposes this burden of proof on others to make an exception for their own sexuality. Can you imagine if it was the other way around and what the reaction would be?

I think some people became much too accustomed to the typical amiability of others to even notice how one-sided these expectations have become. Based on the current standards, I'm effectively an ACE irl right now. But apparently that's not considered a real sexuality anyway. So what am I? We're mostly defined by the transitory whims of other people, flying on the wings of steam. You'd think some people would be able to see the parallels to other things occurring to them right now, but I suppose that's far too much to ask for...

[–]PatsyStone 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think there are a lot of unstated truths that are too divisive to bring up because well... we're negotiating from a weak position. They don't think they need us, we need them.

There's a lesbian on the main sub who made a great point that bisexuals dominate online. It's because we don't have spaces irl so this is where we seek each other out and try to socialize with our identity. Maybe in the coming years, as gay rights advocacy is forced online, we will bring more to the table and be seen as more valuable to the "community."

They've certainly been driven into our arms with DroptheT.

A lot of this boils down to fighting over money and social status.

[–]MarkJefferson 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I hope to god if/once this T scourge is handled we can finally fully address the elephant in the room that Vulvamort mentioned about how many gays go through the Bi label before they finally realize/admit they're gay. I've heard at least one person on the forum adamantly announcing repeatedly that happens to every single gay person they know. What I rarely if ever hear from people is how that does untold damage to the acceptance of Bisexually as a legitimate orientation when it's being constantly dragged to one side or the other(effectively erased) by spicy-straight and gay tourists. We already have to deal with this "more than 1/2 genders" and "multiple/all genders" definition pollution from every official source on the internet that undermines the very concept of the sex Binary for Bi attraction, but being constantly blamed(personally) for sexuality label appropriation when your own identity that you are born and die with is actively and casually being appropriated and destabilized everyday without any apologies given is adding insult to injury. I don't even want to even be reminded of this outright hypocrisy from some people anymore, but I know I will be.

[–]PatsyStone 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's true, their rules are self-serving and they don't apply them to themselves.

I've always gone out of my way to be kind to guys who confess to me that they "might be bisexual." They obviously need the support, I don't mind playing pretend if it helps them. As far as I remember they've all gone on to be gay later.

These same guys will wait a couple of decades and spit in my face (metaphorically) and act like they didn't use me as a shield.

Where's my shield?

Why are bisexuals left out in the cold on our own?

Why don't gays feel the same way about us?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've only seen that elephant brought up one other time on droptheT, and I was so excited to see it because it was the first time anyone had brought it up but I'd been thinking it for years. I suspect many bisexuals are too, we just 'know our place' in a sense and know nothing we say will be received well.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They don't think they need us, we need them.

The irony being that we outnumber them. But you're right. We have nowhere to go IRL, and the few spaces we do have access to have been colonized by woke rhetoric. And they're STILL fucking with the definitions because people can't just come out and say they they never liked us to begin with and want to do away with 'bi' in favor of 'pan'. At least then we'd have some damn consistency. But no, they want to keep 'bi' around just to change the definition every two weeks.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wonderfully said and I agree completely. Sometimes it feels like bisexuals are the only ones being asked to 'prove' our sexuality. Straight people never have to. And gays and lesbians are generally accepted as gay once they come out, regardless of dating history. Even if the reaction is a homophobic one. Homophobia is not always the same as 'I don't believe you'. Usually if the reaction is bad, LGs get homophobia and we get 'I don't believe you'.

[–]PatsyStone 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We're always wrong.

I also grew up in the bible belt. Same sex dating was not a thing and if you were even suspected of being gay you were a pariah (guess who was a pariah.) Things have changed there in that gays and a handful of lesbians are now out to each other and have meetups and a bar they frequent.

Where was I supposed to be getting a girlfriend in that scenario? It's hard enough just to survive.

Gays and lesbians who live on the coasts are so clueless. They need cultural sensitivity training for their own culture.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gays and lesbians who live on the coasts are so clueless.

I'm saying though. If they aren't TRAs, then they're the ones who don't understand why not everyone can be 'out'. All regions in America are not created equal, and you'd think they'd know that by now.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What is your point in linking these? You gave zero context.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sorry, late-night post. It's academic research on the topic of transitional bisexuality, or the "bi" phase that gay people go through. Also, how some gay people fit into not the exclusively gay category, but a "mostly gay" category. So Kinsey 6 and Kinsey 5, respectively. Yet, the mostly gay people may have an exclusively gay identity... and they're bi.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Ooh yeah. Saltiness retracted lol. And yeah this is 2 sides of the same problem. But LGs only think the bisexuals identifying as gay is problematic. No, both of these situations are damaging, just in different ways. And to different groups.

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Great sources.