all 23 comments

[–]jet199 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Because feminism is about making the lives of all women better. It's not about celebrating individuals in a free society being able to do something so simple as being able to make basic lifestyle choices.

So the question then is does sex work help or hurt women as a group and the vast majority of rad fems who have looked into this subject has found it does greatly hurt women.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Choice is something feminism fought for for years. Another thing, GC is also against BDSM and any form of porn, regardless if it is consensual or not. You can’t say something people enjoy is bad for all women, or even the majority.

[–]DistantGlimmer 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Porn is a multi-billion dollar industry. Not just something a few people do for fun. It does have huge effects on society as it continually reflects negative misogynistic attitudes about women. Also, many porn actresses are not well treated even if you can find a few that possibly are and it encourages human trafficking. There are many detailed critiques of the porn industry from feminists that you can read.

Consensual BDSM is really a separate topic. We actually had a thread about it a week or two ago. I don't think it should simply be banned. Porn for profit should be though.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I don't think any GC people actually advocate banning BDSM. I'm all in favor of banning violent porn, though. I feel like that would dramatically reduce the number of people engaging in sexualized violence.

[–]DistantGlimmer 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think it's degrading and harmful even when not explicitly violent but I am sure laws would have to be made and it would be quite complicated where the line would be drawn.

I've heard people criticize BDSM but never anyone talk about banning it either. Don't know how you even could. Obviously we don't want the government policing sexual practices of consenting adults in private.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Porn would be tough to reform and even tougher to ban outright. I think it's probably better to focus attention on banning porn involving violence. That seems like a cause most decent people could get behind.

Yeah, I'm not in favor of the government policing people's bedrooms. I just believe there should be criminal penalties for injuring or killing a partner during sex. That's probably enough.

[–]DistantGlimmer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

My view is all porn is harmful and the end0goal should be ban the whole industry but it makes sense to focus on the worst most violent porn first as a political tactic I guess

I just believe there should be criminal penalties for injuring or killing a partner during sex.

Yes absolutely BDSM should not be used as a legal defense for violence

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think it's possible to ban porn again after the cat has been let so far out of the bag?

I'm skeptical. I'd be happy if it happened, but I don't see men giving up their porn without a fight.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's definitely going to be a huge fight. Was something they really seemed to be making headway with in the 70s and 80s but the Internet has made porn so much stronger and more ubiquitous. I' guess I would hope that if we can somehow make more people aware of the damage it causes and the way it exploits women more people will support banning it. But I don't know, it's a huge uphill battle and sometimes I just get really depressed about what it is doing to young people and it seems almost no way to fight such a strong and corrupting industry.

[–]yishengqingwa666 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I fully agree with those links. It's just that banning BDSM would be impossible to police. My main concern is the normalization of it in society.

[–]worried19 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is about class consciousness and class analysis.

Promoting the degradation, dehumanization, and subjugation of women in the sexual realm has negative effects on women and girls as a class of people. It's not about the rare woman who chooses to prostitute herself, but the masses of girls and women who did not choose it. It's not about the rare woman who claims that she was born a masochist. It's about the huge numbers of girls and women who have sexualized violence visited upon their bodies because violent acts have become the norm.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I absolutely can and do say that the commodification of women as sex objects and the normalisation of violence mixed with sex are bad for all women, even those who enjoy it.

How is it not harmful for people to believe that being prostituted is a fun sexy choice women just flippantly make? How are they not harmed by the idea that it is normal or expected to enjoy being slapped, choked, spat on, or restrained during sex?

[–]firebird 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I could give a long explanation about all the details that I'm personally against it, but the beginning and end of it is actually pretty short and sweet:

Consent has been an important topic the last couple of years, and one I've thought about a lot myself. Eventually there was only one question left to answer. Can consent be bought?

The answer for me is no.

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Money does not equal consent.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why should we celebrate the few women who choose this as representative of prostituted women?

The majority are not in it by choice. Trafficked women and girls, groomed children, addicts with no other means of income, the destitute mother who can see a few johns and feed her kids or watch them go to sleep hungry tonight, women who have the choice between a night on the streets in the snow or spending it in a cheap motel with the money from giving some paid blowjobs.

Is that really choice? Why are we framing the conversation around the tiny percentage of women who are ~high class call girls~?

It’s a dishonest conversation from the get-go if it’s not more focused on reality of prostitution.

[–]weirdthorn 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are two things to consider: for one, humans have something called intimate zone, which is the zone reserved for partners, kids and other close people. Constantly letting strangers invade your intimate zone is not healthy, voluntary or forced. And two, if prostitution wasn't degrading men would flock to it, but the role they play in prostitution is that of pimps (with exceptions obv).

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not GC but I feel like the number of women preyed upon by these industries vastly outnumber the number of women who are clamoring to become prostitutes. I also don't think prostitution or porn is morally acceptable in terms of consent, but my stance on that isn't super strong.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's commodification of (mostly) women's bodies, it supports and spread the idea that women's bodies are a thing that can be bought, most of the women who work in that trade are suffering for emotional and mental trauma and often physical violence, and in general we don't believe that consent can be bought.

Just because a bunch of women feel "empowered" by it, it doesn't mean that the practice is healthy and should be supported. Not to mention, the only ones who have some kind of liberty about choosing their partners are the ones who don't need the money to begin with.

A better question is, why are liberal feminists so in love with prostitution and pornography when they jump to attack objectification at any given chance? Pornography and prostitution are objectification taken up to eleven, it literally is reducing women's bodies to a tool for men's arousal/sexual pleasure, but they are awesome, while, say, an actress in a movie wearing a bikini out of nowhere is the ultimate sin.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m not sure if all GC is against sex work. Many GC are because many GC are also radfems, but there are those who aren’t.

[–]tamingthemindradfem (GC) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is a good point that people can often forget - not all GC people are radfems, but all radfems are GC.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


This recent division on neo-liberal, liberal and radical feminism (and 10 more feminisms) is weird for me. Liberal feminism of second wave was radical enough to demand changes in laws. I am not a woman to judge, but still.

Isn't any feminism that want changes for women - already radical to a degree and goes against current power situation in the world?

And if feminism does not want to change system, but just empower only few women (neo liberal one, for example) - is it feminism at all if it plays along the oppressors?