GC: How have you been socially punished for rejecting femininity?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

I understand the GC perspective that femininity is ingrained structural, societal oppression of women, and I agree with that.

My problem has always been the extent to which GC does not seem to hold women accountable for their own actions when it comes to participating in and promoting harmful femininity and female stereotypes.

On a previous Reddit thread about why women continue to wear makeup, I was told yet again that women are punished for refusing to conform to femininity and that women in South Korea have faced rape threats and death threats for refusing their country's beauty culture.

I don't doubt that happens, but to women who live in the so-called "free world" (Europe and America), I am curious what forms of social punishment you have personally faced for rejecting femininity. If radical feminists who are educated about the harms of feminine stereotypes continue to engage in them despite being aware of the problem, then what hope is there for the liberal feminists or non-feminists to reject them?

How do we change society if no one is willing to make the change?

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[–]ActualTomboy 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I feel more like I was punished for being born female. Not by my family, but by pretty much everyone and everything else.

Most well paying jobs still aren't achievable without a conventionally professional appearance. Women are still not considered professional without makeup in most settings. To this day, some bosses may even directly insist on heels. Most bosses are still older men. The amount of people that don't take women as seriously by default regularly leaves me in disbelief and is at times beyond my level of patience.

Sexists and sexist double standards are everywhere. It never ends. I'm a former top 50 player in my game of choice, and I never even speak on comms anymore. Dealing with sexist stereotypes is a constant pain both in life and tenfold in game. The level of hate some ebois have is unreal.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, it amazes me that it's still legal in America for companies to enforce sexist dress codes and tell women they must wear makeup or high heels.

I'm not sure what industry you're in. I'm in the general business field and have not had any problems with being GNC. I was worried I might have trouble finding a job after college, but that wasn't the case. I actually got hired before my partner did, and we were both job hunting at the same time. My impression is that some industries are worse than others.

[–]zephyranthes 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel more like I was punished for being born female.

This! I've been working at my current company for two years now, and men still won't greet me. Some even recoil in horror when they greet each other in a crowd and then remember there's (gasp!) a female intruder in their midst, or when they see my t-shirt and short hair from the back and run up and extend their hand. Ewww, gross!

(They don't greet the women from another department either. Unlike me, all three of them are upper management and style themselves in a way that would be socially unacceptable for a man: skirts, heels, makeup, extravagant hair, etc).

Women are still not considered professional without makeup in most settings.

...but not this. I've never been pressured to change my appearance either because I'm female or toward "femininity" in any way (one boss banned jeans for everyone and I ignored it, but I was the only one non-lawyer so no one cared).

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I am not a woman, but I am very feminine gay man, does that count?

GC perspective that femininity is ingrained structural, societal oppression of women

By GC it is not femininity that is oppression or oppressed. Femininity, masculinity and social roles are just categories, boxes, to put people in, for easier control, and easier punishment of people outside the box.

GC does not seem to hold women accountable for their own actions

You are mixing GC feminism with radical feminism. Every radical feminism is GC feminism, but not every GC feminism is radical. Radical feminism is adressing this problem too, but very rarely, their focus is on "at first lets fix problem with men and patriarchy, and then we can sort our problems", while GC feminism is more focused on everyday problems and any problems in general.

personally faced for rejecting femininity

It is not personal experience, but I was working with our feminist and LGB organizations for very long time, so I have witnessed a lot of situations, where women wanted to wear pants or more comfortable cloths, but were rejected to do so or were fired for coming like that. Gladly in majority this problem is fixed here nowadays, but not everywhere, some firms and jobs still require "be feminine and very sexy".

Liberal feminism

I don't think they will ever go along with any other feminism, or if it can be called feminism at all, as they are very individualistic and fighting only for their own goods, not for surrounding women or all women good.

This video is somewhat describing the situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PPV83fgJx0

Person on video made herself able to wear more comfortable cloths (or maybe she is he now and transmen, I was not following that channel, sorry), but every other women on that work is still required to wear sexy and uncomfortable outfit, and every other women on that job will be fired for coming in pants or anything comfortable.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I know it’s not the same question, but how have you been socially punished for being feminine or rejecting masculinity?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I had big problems with that around 20-30 years ago.

Nowadays, it is just people making inapropriate jokes all the time. Mostly jokes are "are you a gay, or something?" and most men are not taking me seriously, unless I do something "masculine". As I am not out for majority of people I know, homophobia is strong here. I don't think it will be a huge issue, but everything will become harder if they will know I am a gay. So better jokes and not taking serious, than even more jokes and "I am not turning with my back to you".

I am working in a pretty "masculine" place, on a factory, so people there are very rude. However, I am lucky that I am a "top" and dominating person, so I can stand my ground. So when they are trying to bully me or call out gay, I am answering something like "if you saying I am gay and try bully me, I will put you on your knees and f*uck you then". Strangely it is work, regardless of the fact that they are much stronger than me. So I may say that I am lucky, or maybe dominating personality and standing your ground is already enough to make such people to fear.

Before me here was one feminine guy too, who was not even gay, they bullied him, so he quit. Bullying was harsh, with damaging his uniform multiple times when he had free days, they broke his locker too.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a repeat from the old sub, by the way.

FYI, some of our old threads are still available in the Google cache, but they're being steadily deleted, so grab them while you can.

[–]valleyoftherogue 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have never had problems because I have never worn makeup in the over 40 years I have been in the labor force and in a variety of occupations. I just don't care what other people think.