GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Why does it make no sense? If gender is a social construct, then the solution to make these people happy is to change the social construct, not allowing them to get surgery and make the social problem even worse. If I am in charge of making decisions of this kind, then I need to think about society as well, not just trans people.

Allowing individuals to transition because they have social issues (such as preferring clothes associated with the other sex) means that they are things (talking about the social issues here) that make sense and that the only way to go is to accept them. That we can' t change them, so we should change the people who disagree with those issues. That' s not something I am willing to do. That' s not a GC way to go, and since we are talking about a GC world, it makes no sense that it would be accepted and allowed.

Similarly if you hate men because men are terrible and the tropes associated with them disgust you, the last thing to do is say "you are right those tropes are legitimate, so if you don' t like them you should totally get invasive surgery and voilà!!!!!! Problem solved!!!!". Not gonna happen.

Let’s say bottom surgery drops 2/3 in price. How many trans women do you think can scratch up 10k? I know of none. I know I couldn’t.

I think plenty of them could do it, just not immediately. They would have to wait until they have the money, just like any other person who wants cosmetic surgery because they hate their bodies. I don' t see why trans people should get a preferential treatment here.

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Similarly if you hate men because men are terrible and the tropes associated with them disgust you, the last thing to do is say "you are right those tropes are legitimate, so if you don' t like them you should totally get invasive surgery and voilà!!!!!! Problem solved!!!!". Not gonna happen.

It is noteworthy that trans people often say they are not placing men and women into stereotypical boxes, but it almost invariably boils down to having some preconceived notion, on their part, of what "men" and "women" are as discrete, non-overlapping social categories based on sex stereotypes, and wanting to opt out of the one assigned to them. And I agree with them, no one should have to be part of a social category based on sex stereotypes, those should not exist at all.

In my world, "men" and "women" are medical categories based on biological sex alone which determine nothing more than who can access which spaces. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want this world unless they get some sort of thrill from dressing as/being viewed as the other sex.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, I agree. It' s almost always about enforcing dangerous and toxic sex based roles and stereotypes.

If I am in charge, I am not going to include that in the gatekeeping. It just makes the social issues worse, and that' s the last thing we should do.

Of course I can' t dictate, nor I want to dictate, how people think, speak and behave, so if anyone wants to enforce that crap they are free to do it. But that' s not the same as making an official and legal statement about how the aformentioned crap is the true way and anyone who disagrees with it is entitled to surgery.

A woman who wants to transition because "women are weak and listen how much I roar" is just saying that women cannot be strong and that the only possible thing to do is to pretend she' s a man. Because men are strong!!! Yeah, no GCer would accept it and facilitate it.

[–]IceColdLover 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with you entirely. If others want to follow gender roles have at it, but the legal recognition of adherence or lack thereof as the cornerstone of a separate identity which we are all legally bound to accept and embrace, is something I see as an infringement on women's rights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Why does it make no sense? If gender is a social construct, then the solution to make these people happy is to change the social construct, not allowing them to get surgery and make the social problem even worse. If I am in charge of making decisions of this kind, then I need to think about society as well, not just trans people.

Which can be argued for people with ONLY social dysphoria but using it as a bar to people with both leaves physical dysphoria untreated and Unadressed. It’s indefensible.

I think plenty of them could do it, just not immediately. They would have to wait until they have the money, just like any other person who wants cosmetic surgery because they hate their bodies. I don' t see why trans people should get a preferential treatment here.

Most trans people would never have 10k. Hell most people will never. People live paycheck to paycheck. 10000 is literally more money that I will ever have.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Which can be argued for people with ONLY social dysphoria but using it as a bar to people with both leaves physical dysphoria untreated and Unadressed. It’s indefensible.

I guess an evaluation about whether the two things are linked could be made. For example, if your body dysphoria came after your realization that you hate men. It if came after or because of it, then surgery wouldn' t be allowed. Otherwise maybe it could be. A case by case basis.

Most trans people would never have 10k. Hell most people will never. People live paycheck to paycheck. 10000 is literally more money that I will ever have.

Lots of people desperately want cosmetic surgery without being able to get it. As I said, I don' t see why trans people should have a preferential treatment over them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Because dysphoria is a crippling condition that interferes with living a functional life.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Which is something we disagree on. And which is why we have the opposite ideas on how vital transitioning is.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You can’t disagree that dysphoria is crippling. It keeps people from living functional lives. You can’t deny that.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Yes, I do disagree. I am sure that for some of them it is crippling, but I don' t think it is for the majority of trans people.

And even if that were the case, it is still a psychological problem, and I don' t think surgery made to validate those feelings and thoughts is the best way to deal with it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

The alternative is do nothing and let people suffer.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

No, the alternative is finding a way to help them that doesn' t involve surgery and hormones that their bodies don' t need.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Therapy doesn’t stop dysphoria. It’s dysphoria or transition. Those are the only 2 choices.