QT: If someone agreed to compromise with you on everything EXCEPT calling trans women "women" and trans men "men" and share intimate spaces with them, would you be satisfied with this?

submitted by IceColdLover from self.GCdebatesQT

If someone agreed to all of the following:

  1. Referring to trans people by their chosen name and pronouns,
  2. The enacting of anti-discrimination laws to protect trans people from discrimination in housing, employment, lending, etc.
  3. Allowing trans people to transition physically to whichever extent they deem fit,

BUT the also say:

  1. They will refer to trans women as "trans women" and trans men as "trans men" but not as just "women" and "men", essentially arguing for separate categories for them, albeit agreeing not to refer to them by their biological sex,
  2. Not allowing trans women to use female restrooms, locker rooms, or be housed in female prisons and shelters, and enabling them to use gender neutral facilities instead, without forcing them to use those corresponding to their sex,

Would you agree to this? Why or why not? Which part would you take issue with and why?

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Not QT, but trans. I think I’m okay with it. I assume those of us who are under the radar wouldn’t be any more and would be expected to come out as trans. Is that correct? It does make me a little nervous and it would change things if I had to be out, but it’s less scary if neutral spaces would be there and it would help trans people in general, so I’d probably say yes. I don’t care at all about being called a transwoman instead of a woman.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Out of curiosity, what is wrong with being out as trans if there’s sufficient protections in place?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Maybe nothing. 🤷‍♀️ For me personally, I’m just a little nervous about it because it would be new. I worry that people might treat me differently and it would be othering. I’d have to tell friends, coworkers, and others who I’d known for years and I’m not sure how they’d react.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ahh I see. I think I knew coworkers didn’t know, was unaware that friends and other people you’re close to don’t know.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know that feel. I am not coming out unless needed or it was seen by others too. As I don't want to be "the lesbian" or "that lesbian", it is not what my personality is, it is just what my sexual orientation/attraction is, nothing more, one of most boring parts of me, but sometimes people are just instantly starting to think with stereotypes or making bad jokes.

[–]grixitperson 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm perfectly happy to let other people refer as they like, as long as that has no legal consequences, and as long as i have the same rights.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (12 children)

The last point, access to facilities, is the one to which I would object. Denying transitioned trans women access to women's facilities exposes them to public shaming and risk of violence from haters. There few gender neutral facilities. And how would you enforce these rules?

The one exception, in my view, would be prisons: trans women with a history of violence or intimidation should be segregated in their own wing because they pose a substantial risk to the safety of female prisoners. However, nonviolent offenders, such as those who stole evidence of US military criminality, refused to testify in court, and were imprisoned for contempt, are likely low risk and can be accommodated amongst females. Case-by-case risk assessment by custodial officials.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

What’s to stop a man who was in contempt of court from raping the women you’d house him with?

“He’s probably not a rapist so into the showers with the women he goes” is basically ensuring women will be hurt.

[–]divingrightintowork 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Why are TWs a special exception in a way any other man isn't? Why didn't gay men use women's rest rooms? Why don't effeminite men use women's restrooms? Don't you believe in self-ID?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Trans women who present femme need access to women's bathrooms for the same reason as cis women: shelter from predatory male behaviour that targets women. Trans women get similar attention to cis women, and also risk being bashed by transphobes. They are seeking asylum fro persecution. Transitioned trans women tend to present a lot more femme than effeminate men. So, I guess I am saying that bathroom access should be based on gender expression; not how successful someone is a passing, but evidence of effort. It seems like the most workable compromise.

I support self ID for identity documents only (or even better, ridding identity documents of gender markers). Identity documents are not used for bathroom access.

I wonder which bathroom GNC cis men like makeup artist John Maclean use. He presents very femme.

[–]divingrightintowork 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah I'm not going to bother having this argument - male violence is not a women's problem - and you're not presenting a system for how access to women's spaces won't be abused or taken advantage of by bad actors or oblivious assholes who think they're special - trans people clearly have the clout to change societal issues, there are any number of other solutions they could be working for other than just taking away women's rights for sex solitary spaces - and of course if the TW really is passing, than there is nothing stopping them from using a woman's space and making other people uncomfortable... but if he isn't...

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The majority of women seem to be fine with granting shelter to trans women, and the ones I have asked have said they are more than happy to boot bad actors out of women's spaces on a case-by-case basis. There are so few trans people that cis predators are still the real problem; cis predators have no need to pretend to be trans to perpetrate their violence. No need to have this argument: it has already been resolved.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree there’s no need to have this argument, but you didn’t even address what was said to have the argument. Doesn’t matter that some women are comfortable with transwomen In their spaces- not all females are. And those spaces were made for females, end of. If your resolution is to just ignore the females (girls and women) who don’t feel comfortable with males in their spaces and to dismiss the fear that allowing males in the spaces could be dangerous potentially- nothing is resolved. You’re basically telling the women and girls who want female spaces to be for females to deal with having their safe spaces invaded and compromised for the sake of males. It’s absurd to me that the solutions to transwomens issues is almost always to strip females of their needs and rights. And you call it a resolution.

[–]divingrightintowork 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

First it's not woman A's place to give up woman B's place - Just like if you date a bisexual woman who says you're her lesbian girlfriend, you don't get to tell demand entry into a lesbian space - also citations please - by the numbers no the majority of women don't accept TWs into their spaces - but again, the makers of the space get to decide who is / is not a woman, no?

Indeed - the argument has already been resolved, most ts males still have their penises, therefore most women (and men) don't want them in women's spaces - https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/mpoll3a.jpg

It doesn't touch ts males without a penis but you seem to think gender presentation is more important than whether or not they're in tact... while it seems society certainly has clear thoughts on that. But regardless, it isn't your space to claim, and it's not other women's to give away.

And why not just boot male predators and problematic actors from men's spaces?

[–]penelopekitty 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Someone will have to define what "transitioned" means and enforce that. What is your definition and how do you see that line being legally enforced in day to day settings?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Transitioned has to mean some form of gender expression, that is, enough visible cues that someone is trying to live as a woman. I do not see any way that this can be legally enforced.

[–]penelopekitty 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How does one 'live as a woman?'

[–]maldita-sudakafeminist-woman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In Chile, minors between the age of 14-17 need approval of their parents/tutors and "proofs". https://www.bcn.cl/leyfacil/recurso/ley-de-identidad-de-genero Married people also need some additional bureocracy, since same-sex marriage is not legal in Chile. Only single people over the age of 18 can legally transition with 2 witnesses, a max of 2 times in their life. So, third world countries are still more strict legally.

[–]Thatstealthygal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If a trans woman looks femme enough there shouldn't even be an issue. Nobody's going to check your chromosomes at the door.

I'd love to ask John Maclean that question but he'd probably say he only goes in his own personal palace.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Depends on who “they“ is in 1 of the second part. As in this individual person or as in it would be illegal for anyone else to refer to us as we would consider appropriate?

That aside I wouldn’t care but I’ve made peace with loving as an outcast at this point anyway so it would be nice just to have legal protections and neutral facilities.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Illegal to not call someone a preferred pronoun? Yikes what a brave new world.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What? My question was whether the implication was that this would make it illegal to call us by our preferred pronouns not to require it.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How would it make it illegal to call you preferred pronouns? That’s absurd.

It wasn’t clearly worded at all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They will refer to trans women as "trans women" and trans men as "trans men" but not as just "women" and "men", essentially arguing for separate categories for them, albeit agreeing not to refer to them by their biological sex,

Since this was included as well as legislation In other areas I was asking for clarification

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How does recognising transwomen as a seperate category to women make it illegal to call men she?

[–]IceColdLover[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I say "they" I mean a given individual. Could be me, or anyone else.