Trans people/QT: What is the best or most important thing gender critical people can do to help you?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

This is a spin-off thread.

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Give up our rights and pretend we don’t understand biology

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

As the threads below indicate, this is the correct answer lmao

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Haha, nothing funnier than making fun of a marginalized group while arguing all their existing protections be removed. Funny stuff.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Marginalized like black people?

Marginalized like women?

Marginalized like bisexual people?

You realize I’m marginalized too, yes (I’m also considered oppressed by my race and sex🙃) ? So that doesn’t really work with me.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And ... I haven’t made any jokes about women (which I consider myself), bisexual people (I am biromantic), nor black people.

Nor would I. You are having a good old time mocking trans a trans woman for pointing out how you are arguing for us to be stripped of rights though.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Point is, trying to call me out for “making fun of” a marginalized group is pointless as I belong to multiple marginalized groups. Unless you want to play the oppression Olympics, it’s a moot point.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The difference is I’m not mocking you for your groups.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Neither am I. If that’s how you take it that’s how you take it. My point is still- so what if I was mocking you? It’s words. Online. Grow the fuck up. I’m not privileged, so throwing out the “marginalized” bs is not really gonna accomplish anything. If anything I’m more “marginalized” than you and I consider you my oppressor in a few different ways, last I checked, the oppressed were allowed to mock their oppressors. You can always stop engaging if I’m such a bully.

This is a silly back and forth so I’m gonna go ahead and really end it this time.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You engage in bad faith.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No I don’t lol you’re just not a good debater.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I feel like the most important thing anyone can do for trans people is to normalize gender nonconformity. Kids should be taught it’s okay to be a masculine girl or feminine boy and we should try to make it where those things are just like a part of personality and not because of someone’s sex. Visibly trans people shouldn’t be treated badly because they don’t adhere to expectations for their sex. I feel like GC (actually GC, not trans hating conservatives appropriating it) do this, but it is the most important thing to me because it helps everyone and doesn’t reinforce gender roles.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Love this answer.

[–]penelopekitty 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is what GC (ie. Second Wave) feminists have been doing since at least 1965. Hence the name 'gender critical.' We are critical of socially enforced gender roles and stereotypes. We don't care if someone is gender nonconforming in fact we embrace it. The basis of actual feminism (not libfem nonsense) is that women's oppression is rooted in our biology.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We aren’t here to help transgender people.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I am asking QT posters, not GC. Anyway, this is a spin-off of this thread.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (25 children)

A few things.

  1. Remember trans people span across all races and social classes. For instance, in the thread The idiots at GenCyn finally discover Ovarit. GC brought up that a GenCyn user is an Iranian trans man. One user wrote:

She gets so much attention from gencyn cuz she's the one WoC they actually have in their midst of privileged, white males.

I read Gencyn for many years and participated there as a cis woman. Not everyone there is a privileged white males. Another thread is TIF was "found bleeding down there" and went to the hospital where the doctor be like "you are on your period" where one user said "“Dysphoria” is such a first world problem." Another thread from the old GC sub is Transgender student in a musical. This is an archived thread and the OP's mom is a teacher who has a trans (FTM) student in a musical. Unfortunately, not all the comments were saved. I do remember another person also claimed to be a teacher and said trans kids only exist in rich white communities, and in her poor inner city school district there are no trans kids, just GNC kids.

There are black trans people. There are brown trans people. There are poor trans people. There are trans people in 3rd world countries. There are trans people in Syria and North Korea. There are black and disabled trans people. There are black, disabled and poor trans people.

That said, QT should also stop using other marginalized people to compare it to trans oppression.

  1. Please stop pretending to care about trans men. I understand GC will continue to claim they include trans men in their feminism, even though they don’t. But stop using trans men to insult trans women. For instance, on reddit a trans man started a thread on how some trans women talk over trans men. In response GC in the old sub created a thread titled "TIF’s discuss how badly they are treated by over-sexualized and narcissistic TIM’s". The thread unfortunately wasn't archived, but I did save a comment "TIW: men do not give a fuck about you. Please come back to your sisters who love you." Honestly GC silences trans men also, like saying dysphoria is a "first world problem", calling trans men narcissistic for wanting their pronouns respected, the same thing they are accusing trans women of doing. If GC genuinely cared about trans men they would uplift trans men's voices in response to this. No, they are just using trans men to prove trans women are narcissistic and fetishistic and then they will accuse trans men of the same things.

If you're going to insult trans women, fine. Just leave trans men out of it. This goes for any other marginalized group as well.

  1. Acknowledge dysphoria exists. I am a cis woman. I am disgusted at the thought of me having a penis. If I was born male or woke up male the next day I would transition. The only reason I don't have dysphoria is because I was born in the correct body.

Also dysphoria affects people differently. Some trans men get pregnant because it’s the only way they can have a kid. Other trans men will have to be put on suicide watch. It's not a first world problem. It has nothing to do with socially imposed gender roles.

  1. Stop acting like you speak for all women. I'm sure many GC women are afraid to speak out. But the majority of women are not GC and you need to accept that. Reddit didn't silence women, they silenced GC, which includes GC guys. It's GC women who are afraid of men in women's bathrooms, not women.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Questions:

  1. Considering almost ALL of the statistics about violence committed against trans people are cases of poc being harmed or killed, the “transphobia is white supremacy” nonsense slogan, and the way that trans people even took over the BLM hashtag- in what world do you think that gc doesn’t realize that there are trans people of all races and ethnicities?

  2. Do you understand that when GC says they support transmen- they mean because they are female? As in, we support them having female rights, the same ones we want for ourselves? Doesn’t mean we give a fuck about them being trans or their needs, wants, and preferences that exist specifically because they are trans?

  3. Do you understand that we can acknowledge dysphoria exists, but not think it means we need to placate trans people in whatever ways they demand?

  4. “It has nothing to do with socially imposed gender roles.”

What does it have to do with, then?

  1. Do you understand that not everyone is either gc or QT/tras? There are plenty of females who don’t even know the term gc and aren’t even well informed on trans ideology who don’t support the things you support. Are all of those teenage girls who don’t feel safe changing in their locker rooms because of one teenage boy’s sense of identity gender critical? Or are they just scared and uncomfortable? Are all of the females who have expressed that they think it’s unfair or even unsafe to compete with males (any males) gender critical? Or do they just want fair and equal sport?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

  1. I have seen GC imply and openly state the trans movement is a white male movement, or an upper class movement and even cited a few sources.

  2. You misunderstood what I wrote. I wrote don't use trans men to insult trans women. Please don't say things like "the TIMs are silencing the TIFs". If you want to insult trans women, leave trans men out of it. It's one thing to insult trans women, it's another low to use trans men to insult trans women when you insult trans men yourselves.

  3. I have seen GC deny dysphoria exists, like the post above saying dysphoria is a 1st world problem. When GC people say trans men transition to escape misogyny, or because they are short little girls, they are denying dysphoria.

  4. I'd like GC to stop pretending they speak for every women, especially when there are over 3 billion women in the world and many do not share GC views. I and my female friends are OK with any gender changing in our locker rooms. I know because we discuss these things. That said, I hang out in liberal circles.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

  1. So you’re gonna ignore all evidence to the contrary for that same thread you always post. Cool. I’ll move on from this then.

  2. How is “the tims are silencing the tifs” an insult to transmen, as opposed to transwomen?

  3. Again, you want to use your go to thread instead of listening to actual gc people who acknowledge that gender dysphoria exists.

How do you do it? How do you seriously interact with gc people and tell us what we think, then have us say “no genderbender, that’s literally not what we think” and then you say “yeah it is I saw it in a thread I read!” Like... wut?

  1. So half of the women and girls have to be uncomfortable (btw, the bathroom example: all of the girls were uncomfortable. All of them. All. Parents too.) because you and your friends aren’t? You realize if gc had its way, all females would be safe and comfortable, even if some were mad that their male friends don’t get free range of female rights, right?

  2. I hang out in liberal circles too, I’m assuming an older age range. So idk what you thought that meant.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

  1. GC literally said in the 1st thread that there is only one WOC on GenCyn and everyone else is a white male. In the 2nd thread, a teacher said trans kids only exist in wealthy white communities. She teaches in a poor inner city school and says there are no trans kids.

  2. Because you're using trans men to insult trans women. If you want to insult trans women, call them narcissistic, AGP, go ahead. Just leave trans men out of it.

  3. I have seen many deny dysphoria.

  4. Not all of us would be safe and comfortable if GC had its way. We are also women and we know what is and isn't safe for us. We're tired of GC speaking for all women. They only speak for themselves.

  5. Most of my friends are liberal, vote democrat and support social justice.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

  1. You cannot base you’re entire understating of GC on that post. And I’m willing to bet my entire paycheck that the first poster you mentioned doesn’t mean that only One woc was in the sub at all- it’s more likely that they meant a frequent commenter, also- doesn’t mean they think only one trans poc exists in the world. We have all told you so many times that we are well aware that trans poc exist. This is just an odd thing to cling to for several reasons. As far as trans kids- have you been to the school she was talking about? Or do you assume that all schools have trans kids? If she meant there’s no such thing- that’s not racist

  2. This doesn’t even make any logical sense so I’m just gonna skip on past it.

  3. And you’ve had many tell you they know it exists. So it seems like denying dysphoria exists isn’t really a specifically gc thing. Also- are you unaware that there are trans people who say dysphoria isn’t a thing and or that you don’t need to be dysphoric to transition? Are those trans people and the tras who agree gc? By your logic, they would be. Except- every single gc trans person I know insists that dysphoria must be present to be trans. So... sounds like this is another illogical leap that I’m gonna skip from now on.

  4. Why would males not being allowed in female spaces make females unsafe? I’m not speaking for anyone, I’m saying that it’s just a fact that what gc advocates for would not undermine any female specific needs or rights. Even if some are upset that their TW friends don’t have access to those rights, their rights are intact. It’s laughable to claim that libfem females would be unsafe because males can’t access their rights. They may be upset about it, that’s not the same as being unsafe or disenfranchised.

  5. As are mine, they just also understand biology and fact. Just because you think abolishing female rights is social justice doesn’t mean you’re correct.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

  1. There are at least a few posts where GC says the trans movement is a white male or upper class movement.

  2. In basic terms, don't use trans men to insult trans women. You can say trans women are narcissistic and AGP. You can't say trans women are silencing trans men, or trans men are nicer than trans women. When insulting trans women, don't mention trans men (unless you're insulting them too).

  3. There are also many GC people that deny dysphoria exists, like this comment.

  4. You do not get to decide what makes other females unsafe. I am a majority rules kind of person. If the majority of women are OK with males in women's bathrooms, so be it.

  5. Most of my female friends support trans rights. We are OK with making all bathrooms gender neutral (with no gaps in the stalls).

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

  1. They are saying that white men are the ones leading the group, they are saying that white men are the ones using the statistics of violence against trans poc to further their own cause. That doesn’t mean that they don’t understand that trans poc exist. I don’t know how else to make it clear to you that we understand that people of any race can believe in any and all types of sexualities and identities. Like- you can keep insisting that this isn’t the case, but it’s an incredibly odd choice to make, since several of us have corrected your misconceptions so many times. It’s even more odd considering every single instance we see in media of a trans person being harmed or killed, that trans person is a poc. The only white trans person I can even think of off of the top of my head that we know was a victim of a transphobic attack was Brandon Teena. I’m sure others exist, all of the ones we see currently are poc. But sure, tell us we don’t think they exist. Because that makes sense. So much sense. At this point you are willfully believing what you want despite evidence to the contrary. But whatever floats your boat, buddy.

  2. If we believe that transwomen talk over transmen, we have every right to say so. If we believe that transmen are nicer than transwomen, we have every right to say so. These examples are simply not even examples of us talking badly about transmen. You need better examples to back up literally all of your claims or nobody will ever take them seriously. Just a tip.

  3. The point I’m making is that there are people, both gc and qt, who deny dysphoria exists. So why are you insisting that this is a gc specific claim?

  4. I didn’t decide what makes other females unsafe. You did. All I did was ask you how not allowing males in the bathrooms would make females unsafe. It was a question, not a statement. And obviously a question you can’t answer which must be why you’re deflecting.

  5. And most of my friends disagree (they support trans rights- but like, actual rights, not the privilege to infringe on the rights of others)... what’s your point?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

  1. Some GC understand people of all identities can support the trans movement, some don't. Anyway, how does GC know the demographics of GenCyn?

  2. Many trans men are tired of being used to insult trans women. Look at these threads.

TERFs and trans masc/AFAB people

They really believe this - Trans men are perfect princesses, and trans women are rapists and murderers

The second thread is a screenshot of this conversation:

TIFs: Hello boys, can we go here?

Men: No.

TIFs: Oh bother. Thank you fellas anyway. Bye! (◕ᴗ◕✿)

TIMs: Hello girls, can we go here?

Women: No.

TIMs: rapemurderfuckyourapestabkillyoubitches foams at the mouth

Hmmm... I wonder what's different. Hmmm...

For one this isn't even true. There was a case where over 150 LGBT students were escorted out of Iowa state capitol after a group of trans kids refused to leave the men’s restroom and use gender-neutral restrooms. Trans men themselves say in those threads they don't ask cis men before using men's restrooms and locker rooms. I'm a cis woman, I have used the men's restroom a few times, and I don't care what men think. So clearly this rambling came out of nowhere except stereotypes. GC had numerous threads where they say trans men are nice and subservient while trans women are violent and threatening. Since r/gendercritical was banned and Ovarit and s/gendercritical are new, it will be hard for me to pull up threads.

In addition to gender stereotyping, these kind of statements assume that trans men are OK with the way GC treats trans women or that trans men will not stand up for themselves, neither which is the case. Trans men are fighting for the rights to use men's restrooms and locker rooms, be called with the correct pronoun, and they will stand up to transphobia as much as trans women will.

  1. Cite a source where QT claimed dysphoria doesn't exist. I have been citing my sources.

  2. Some females would feel unsafe not allowing trans women in their bathrooms, including me.

  3. Most of my friends believe people should have a right to use the restroom that matches their gender identity and are against misgendering.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

  1. If some understand and some don’t it’s not a gc point lmao

  2. Im sure there’s lots of things transmen are tired of... and gc doesn’t have to care about any of those things to support them maintaining female rights. You keep focusing on this, I’m telling you it doesn’t matter. People can have opinions and say what they want. GC doesn’t support the “trans” aspect of transmen. They support them as females. So all this crap about what gc said or how tm feel about it- we don’t fucking care. We care that transmen have access to their female rights in case they need them. What are you not understanding about that?

  3. You are obviously ill informed if you’ve never seen tras argue that dysphoria isn’t necessary to be trans.

  4. Okay... but WHY would they feel unsafe? WHAT IS THE REASON???? I understand that you are claiming that you and others would feel unsafe- but I’ve asked you a few times to explain how/why you feel unsafe?

  5. I understand what your friends believe. I don’t get why you keep telling me.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You do not get to decide what makes other females unsafe.

I agree, every person can only consent for themselves.

I am a majority rules kind of person.

I don't think we should aspire for a tyranny of the majority, minorities should get their say too.

If the majority of women are OK with males in women's bathrooms, so be it.

They can consent for themselves, but never consent for other women who don't, and if males should be allowed in female bathrooms they should need consent from every woman, not just a majority. And here it seems the "minority" who don't consent is very large, at least 40%. And 40% of all women is a far greater number than the very low number of males who would benefit from gaining entrance to the female bathrooms, thus I think our priority should be the comfort of these women not 0.3 % of the males.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reddit didn't silence women, they silenced GC, which includes GC guys. It's GC women who are afraid of men in women's bathrooms, not women

Here’s the thing, tho: yes they silenced people who specifically used the term “gender critical”, however there’s still plenty of people who have made “transphobic” comments allover, there’s still the tumblrinaction sub, that consistently calls out tras and trans people, there’s still post after post and comment on top of comment with gender critical thinking and language, just without the label of gender critical. Even the sub for gay men that you linked previously was full of men who are obviously gender critical in thinking, even if they don’t use or know the term. So there’s still plenty of people, men and women, who aren’t a part of your echo chamber and who are more in line with gc

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (118 children)

Stop trying to keep us out of care and trying to make sure we don’t have any rights?

Like there’s a whole lot that boils down to treat us like humans deserving of respect and stop trying to make it hard or impossible for us to access care.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

I always wonder how transwomen have the audacity to accuse women of trying to make sure you all don’t have any rights lmao. Add to that you complaining that we don’t treat you like human beings. The self awareness is just nonexistent.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

You are actively campaigning for us to have less rights. How else can you characterize it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

You’re missing my point as usual lol. Like I said, the self awareness is nonexistent.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

You are welcome to keep pretending that isn’t the case I guess. But try imagining a world where all the things gc is pushing for legally. (No Id updates, all transition is elective and therefore cannot be affordable, can’t step into a bathroom etc.)

Now try to imagine living in that world as a trans woman.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

The thing you refuse to acknowledge that almost everyone else here understands is that GC women are not doing anything but trying to uphold our own rights. The fact that women having rights and equality conflicts with the needs and wants of transwomen is not our fault or our problem. What you’re calling us actively trying to take away your rights is in actuality us fighting to maintain and protect our own. If TRAs had left women’s rights (and women. period.) alone, we’d have no issues. You shouldn’t have a right to lie on legal documents, particularly when there are actual human beings who exist as what your false documents claim you are, and you should not be able to invade the safe spaces intended to literally keep you (males) out.

As for the surgery- it doesn’t correct any physical anomaly or abnormality, it’s not saving your life because your body is somehow attacking or killing you- it’s elective as fuck. Womanhood is not boobs and a penetrable hole. I honestly don’t care what it’s considered, I just don’t want my taxes paying for it.

I don’t need to waste my time trying to imagine what it would be like for a male person who is not allowed to disrupt female rights, I’m too busy actually living in the fucked up mess transwomen and tras have created for women and girls.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

Arguing that trans women should have access to affordable care or even any care isn’t about your rights. Arguing we shouldn’t be able to protect ourselves since we have no protections isn’t about you. Arguing protections shouldn’t apply to us because you don’t like the wording isn’t about you

As for the surgery- it doesn’t correct any physical anomaly or abnormality, it’s not saving your life because your body is somehow attacking or killing you- it’s elective as fuck. Womanhood is not boobs and a penetrable hole. I honestly don’t care what it’s considered, I just don’t want my taxes paying for it.

It’s essential Care. Doctors agree. And here you admit you are arguing we shouldn’t have care. That’s my point

Once again you refuse to even acknowledge how terrible life is for us. Why do you even start these conversations if you are just doing up pretend we live in magical rainbow world where trans women have rights or power?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

And I literally said I don’t care what you call your surgeries I just don’t want my taxes to pay for it. I didn’t admit you shouldn’t have care, I said it’s literally technically elective as it doesn’t solve any actual issues with or on your body.

I didn’t say shit about your quality of life. I said women have a right to not be vilified and guilt tripped for upholding their rights and protecting their needs. What do you not understand? I didn’t say shit about your rights or power- I said it has nothing to do with women. I swear you are never a part of the same conversations as the rest of us. Even if another qt completely disagreed, they’d at least respond to what the fuck I said. It’s like you have a slew of comments you want to make, and you just wait for someone to engage so that you can make your random, barely related comments regardless of what the other people you’re engaging with actually say.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

And I literally said I don’t care what you call your surgeries I just don’t want my taxes to pay for it. I didn’t admit you shouldn’t have care, I said it’s literally technically elective as it doesn’t solve any actual issues with or on your body.

Calling it elective and saying it shouldn’t be funded is arguing we shouldn’t have access to care.

I’m not getting into this again. Play wherever pretend games you want. I asked you to imagine what life would be like for us if you got what you wanted and you refused even that basic empathy exercise. Hell you responded to this post (which wasn’t addressed to Gc) with a dismissive joke. As you’ve do eloquently stated you don’t give a fuck about us. Which was my point. You refuse to even acknowledge that we are people with needs that need to be considered since we are still people. But we all knew that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

I didn’t say “they shouldn’t have care”. Saying “you shouldn’t have access to care” is saying you shouldn’t have access to care- I said I shouldn’t have to pay for it.

I don’t refuse to acknowledge shit- I’m saying it’s irrelevant to and for women. That’s the whole point I’m making. I understand that being trans is hard for several reasons- it still doesn’t have anything to do with women. The hardships you go through don’t have anything to do with being female or with females, so what exactly would me considering life through your eyes accomplish? All it would do is tell me what I already know: transwomen have nothing, not identity, not life experiences, NOTHING in common with women. You want to use sympathy and emotion to get women to sacrifice their needs and language and rights for you, and you think that’s right and fair and okay to demand of half the population; it isn’t. You refuse to acknowledge that how transwomen struggle and suffer has literally nothing to do with women. And the reason you refuse to acknowledge that truth is because doing so undoes all of your arguments. You deserve rights. You do not deserve the rights of a class of people you don’t belong to. And you do not deserve the right to infringe on rights of a class of people you don’t belong to. But you can’t have that conversation so you rely on the typical tra tactic of accusing me of hatred and harm instead of actually responding to what I’m saying. Tell yourself whatever the fuck you gotta tell yourself to get through the day- everyone else (except maybe genderbender lol) can see that you’re avoiding responding to what I’m pointing out, as usual.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And I literally said I don’t care what you call your surgeries I just don’t want my taxes to pay for it.

The "I do not have condition X so I do not want to pay for it" argument leads to no one having anything paid for by taxpayers and the complete absence of public healthcare. This is a bad idea. Exhibit A: the United States, an allegedly advanced country with much poorer health outcomes than less advanced countries.

I am so pleased to live in New Zealand, a country in which a decent level of fully taxpayer funded healthcare is provided to all residents.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’ve already explained why I don’t think tax payers should have to fund elective surgery. I didn’t say I didn’t want my tax money going towards other things. I’d gladly see my taxes go towards therapy and mental health support of any kind for people with gender dysphoria. I didn’t say that I think taxpayer funded healthcare shouldn’t be provided- I said elective surgeries, yes including gender surgeries, should be excluded. It doesn’t make sense to treat a mental disorder by giving people elective surgery. And it clearly doesn’t help cure or treat anything but how they feel in their bodies. They are still so obviously mentally ill. With few exceptions, they still seem like they can’t handle reality or fact.

[–]DistantGlimmer 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

trying make sure we don’t have any rights?

No one is trying to do that. Latin American immigrants locked in the border camps have no human rights. Trans people in western countries have all the human rights anyone else of their birth sex has. Why are you seemingly incapable of being honest about this?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Hey who cares about the people with no rights? Some males want tits and FFS and are expected to pay for it themselves. Who’s the real victim here?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Seriously. Tone deaf like a motherfucker.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Has about as much empathy as the men they call evil beasts but still calls all of us the bad guys. Rich tapestry of self absorption.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

You literally are. All but one provision of the civil rights act doesn’t apply to trans people in America. You all are actively campaigning for us to lose access to care and are incapable of going out in public. If you get the laws you all push for trans people can’t Medically transition Because it’s impossible to afford, have no protections, Can’t hide so are guaranteed to be taken advantage of for lack of those protections, and essentially unable to go most places.

[–]DistantGlimmer 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

You have no rights to cosmetic surgery or to hide your identity. Transwomen need to learn to deal with their dysphoria in a way that doesn't require them to hide their true identity. I am not against adults transitioning and even getting that covered if it is shown to be medically necessary. but if we are talking about the US where many actually life-threatening procedures are not covered I don't see why an exception should be made for transwomen's psychological needs.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (34 children)

There is an overwhelming avalanche of evidence that transition provides positive mental health changes and dysphoria is unelected by anything else. It’s necessary care.

As long as we can’t hide we are targets for discrimination which we have no legal protection from.

[–]DistantGlimmer 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I have not seen an "overwhelming avalanche of evidence". The transition seems to help some but others detransition.

Hiding is not the solution. Making being opennly trans more acceptable is a better solution. You have the same rights against discrimination anyone else has. Why do people need all kinds of special privileges based on some bullshit "gender identity" which bluntly cannot be proven to exist? Being gender critical most of us are also gender non-conforming, we support the destigmatization of gender non-conforming people but not the misogynistic notion of gender identity which current trans activism is regrettably based upon.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

It’s literally legal to discriminate against people for being trans here in every area but employment. That’s why we need protections.

Making us into circus freaks Who have to be pariah isn’t going to help us. Those of us luck enough to blend and have real lives should be able to. Actual protections might actually help us.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (7 children)

So stop calling kids circus freaks for being trans.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

You are the ones that want to make us freaks. I want to give those who can a chance to hide and make sure those of us who can’t (like me) can still scrape together some semblance of a life.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You’re the only one here who thinks they are freaks. You’re the one dehumanising and othering and degrading trans kids.

Society needs to make the room these kids deserve, not force them into hiding or be called abominations by older people like them.

[–]DistantGlimmer 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Making us into circus freaks Who have to be pariah isn’t going to help us. T>

Holy shit, why do you think your self-loathing is other people's (specifically women's) responsibility to deal with? If anyone GC said this about trans people you'd (actually quite rightly) excoriate them.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Literally none of that was self loathing.

It’s legal to discriminate against trans people and you want to make it impossible to hide you are trans. Guaranteeing discrimination.

My self loathing isn’t a necessary component,

[–]DistantGlimmer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

You are saying that trans people who don't hide they are trans are "circus freaks". Pretty obvious you can't accept what you actually are and feel the need to hide it. I don't feel this way about trans people neither do the vast majority of GC people. It's your own issues that make you assume other people also think this way.

I obviously don't think it should be legal to discriminate against people for being gender non-conforming or identifying themselves as trans. It is not legal where I live.

[–]penelopekitty 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Actually there isn't. The APA recently refuted the one study that said there was. Their statement said that transition did NOT improve mental health outcomes.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You are incorrect.

[–]penelopekitty 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I'm not.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You absolutely are.

[–]penelopekitty 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Nope.

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (37 children)

In what ways do GC people make it impossible for you to access care?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (31 children)

Gc feminists have all the political power and pass acts allowing people to be fired for being trans. It’s not homophobic old men who think they are all just the most gay and who are in power doing this though. It’s only gc women.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

The ones arguing for it are GC feminists. Like foresarters right to insult trans people suit.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Right, that’s all the gc feminists that are in parliaments. Totally. It’s all women’s fault.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

All the cruelty is our fault too. Every day we are physically attacking and killing transwomen of color with our bigger physical strenght and political force! I am still can't understand why all blame is on women, all attacks are on women - when for transwomen real problem and threat are men?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolutely yes we are solely responsible for the murders committed by men. Because they’re animals with no self control it is up to women to do something to protect the males who are hurt by this. Hens must always let the smallest fox into the coop.

Having self interests is against human decency if you’re a woman. Because underneath all the layers of justification these people gather is the ugly little root of women not being human.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

You really should stop conflating your from be political stance with all women. Not everyone wants trans women to be second class citizens with no rights and no care.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Gc women dont want that either. We just want to keep our rights as women. All the fault in your claim does lie with women. If you don’t want people getting the message that women are to blame for some males sadness don’t say it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

You not all women, you specifically, are the ones actively pushing policies forbid to have no rights and no care. It’s not “women” it’s gc.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

I wasn’t speaking for all women, I said the blame goes all on women. As in no blame is put on the men in politics who make the bills harming you.

What policies am I pushing that harm you over in America? None. You gonna guess my voting habits and get them wrong by saying I must vote against transgender interests? Cause that’s wrong too.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

You actively argue for our rights to be stripped and is to not have access to care.

[–]kwallio 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

your from be political stance

WTF does this mean?

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Removed for misgendering. It’s against the rules to misgender other users.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I think they just meant “your political stance”. Just a typo

    [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

    Just look at this thread.

    Doctor who chops off TiFs’ breasts calls herself “Tit Wizard” - where is the outrage?

    Why should there be outrage? Adults can do what they want with their bodies.

    [–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Because the surgeon is being crass and casual about something serious like surgery. Duh.

    Also, wtf does this have to do with anything? Why do you always throw on random shit about transmen when they aren’t relevant?

    [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    But that thread is full of comment's like:

    Mutilating females like that should be illegal.

    Again. Adults can do what they like with their bodies. There are sub comments, which talk about gender affirming surgeries being given to young children, which GC makes a good point. But adults can do what they want with their bodies.

    The sweeping statements you are making here are based on a subset of young people with "gender dysphoria," namely those who developed GD in childhood and persist after puberty. These people are are and were almost exclusively male!

    Ahh yes. Natal females never have gender dysphoria. And GC says they don't deny dysphoria.

    Most people who have mental illnesses that emerge during or after puberty (ADHD, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, etc) don't grow out of it either. But we don't treat them by telling them to lean into their manic episodes, hallucinations, and suicidal thoughts.

    Right now the only current treatment for severe dysphoria is transition. I have bipolar and ADHD and I will tell you it’s not the same.

    You sound as if you're considering transition; I don't know how to put this any other way but please don't.

    While I do think people who would like to go through extreme body modifications should be certain this right for them, I am sure most people are doing that, and the PP of that thread would do that if they are considering this.

    I'm guessing that even the "older" women you mention who want to transition, are still young enough to have grown up in the post-Queer Theory, liberal feminism culture of violent porn, sexting, plastic surgery on demand, anal sex, hook up culture, BDSM - and they want none of it.

    ...

    Extreme body modification as a result of not being able to cope with modern womanhood (and I don't blame you for that) is not the answer.

    Dysphoria has NOTHING to do with modern womanhood or wanting to escape misogyny. Most trans men repeatedly stated they did not transition due to misogyny, yet GC continues to speak over trans men, replacing trans men's words with their own.

    Accepting yourself, and the body that houses you, reaching out to other women, working with them to fight for respect and rights for women, will help you find happiness a thousand times more than undergoing dangerous, traumatic surgery to make yourself a facsimile of a man.

    Many people with dysphoria won't be happy until they transition.

    [–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Ma’am this is a Wendy’s.

    Wtf does this have to do with the discussion at hand and why do I in particular need to answer for what other people say?

    The fuck is wrong with you?

    [–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I was all for her right to free speech until she did it in her workplace.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Many are pushing for a full ban on transition. Many others are pushing for it to be considered elective procedures and therefore removed as a benefit from insurance plans. This renders it inaccessible to most trans people.

    [–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Well tbf trans organizations are speaking on both sides of their mouths by pushing for self-ID and saying no transition is needed and then also saying that facial feminization surgery and breast implants should be covered by insurance. Do you think those things should be covered by insurance as non-elective?

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Ffs no, breast aug probably not other than in reconstructive cases (mastectomies due to cancer, trauma repair etc.)

    I’m more talking about hormones, top surgery for trans guys, and bottom surgery.

    [–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Many are pushing for a full ban on transition.

    Many? I would say this is an extreme view. Is there some GC organization that has made a public statement saying they believe there should be a full ban on medical transition? I certainly wouldn't support anything like that, and I doubt the majority of posters here would, either.

    [–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Some GC activists have lobbied against taxpayer funding for gender services.

    [–]penelopekitty 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    How are we doing that? What rights do you not have?

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Housing discrimination and Medical discrimination To start

    Not to mention access to necessary facilities, assurances that we won’t be subjected to sexual abuse based cruel and unusual punishment, discrimination in access to business and services.

    [–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    Support taxpayer-funded gender therapy and medical services. Even if you do not think gender is a thing separate to sex, there are trans people suffering dysphoria whose lives will be improved with access to better gender care, even if it is only gender therapy. Even if you fear that young people mistakenly think they are trans, access to gender therapy that might broaden their viewpoint is a better alternative than resorting to DIY hormones. Holistic healthcare, taxpayer funded so the young and poor can access it. This does not mean affirmation-only services, nor does it invalidate your concerns about sex-based rights.

    [–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    I don’t want my taxes paying nor nose jobs for people with BDD or severely low self esteem so why should FFS and breasts be publicly funded?

    I don’t expect tax to pay to fix my bunions. Nobody in the world needs elective or cosmetic procedures.

    [–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Found this article today: https://medium.com/@aniobrien/big-hairy-audacious-demands-27ada601b0fa

    I think it fits this discussion very well.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    This had some great points! Enjoyed reading this.

    [–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    -chef kiss- Just perfect

    [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I am fine with using taxes to fund therapy. Not other medical sevices.