GC: Can you debunk every one of the arguments Andrew Carter made in this long thread in response to JK Rowling?

loveSloane · 2020-11-20T03:49:13+00:00

/1. MF losing her job- it’s lazy and insulting to act like the reason that Maya’s contract wasn’t renewed had nothing to do with what she said about sex. Seriously, come on. They even said it was in response to her views. Technically she wasn’t fired- but she lost a renewal she would have had, and she lost it over her beliefs not lining up with trans ideology. It is absurd that people can’t speak fact if it upsets or offends trans people. Nobody seems to give a fuck that the things that tras push on the rest of us are incredibly offensive.

It’s also laughable to pretend that there aren’t many trans people who claim to have changed sex. It’s not the party line- it is frequently claimed by many.

/2. She wrote a letter explaining herself. She doesn’t have to link anything. Most GC women have done research and many of us have said that engaging with trans people had a large part to do with us becoming gc. I don’t think someone has to cite sources when they offer their fans a detailed explanation of their views because their fans are questioning them. Trans people don’t really cite their sources when they try to warp biology and claim debunked pseudoscience backs up their claims. Or they cite the pseudoscience that has often been debunked already.

As far as 2c- it’s flagrantly false to claim that trans rights don’t infringe on female rights. The only way that’s true is if you believe TWAW. Transwomen are MEN, they routinely infringe on our rights. In spaces, sports, representation. Our speech is compelled. Freedom of religion. Like- trans people are the most invasive marginalized group to ever exist. I can’t think of another protected class who’s rights demolish another group’s rights. The “majority” who approve is not a large enough majority that we should just disregard the minority. And it shouldn’t matter how many women are fine sacrificing their own rights- women don’t have the right to sacrifice another woman’s comfort, needs, and safety. Some women may be “quite comfortable” with ~~men~~ TW in their spaces- they don’t need them there, they won’t be unsafe without them there. He’s saying we should just say “fuck you, deal with it” to every female who is bothered by this? Even little girls who can’t vote and likely weren’t polled?

/3. Fuck this dude for trying to excuse death threats. She can say whatever the fuck she wants. If she’s not sending death threats- there’s no justification for her receiving them (arguably sending them doesn’t warrant receiving, but at least that could be somewhat understandable). “Transphobia” or not, there’s no reason to threaten to rape or murder someone. Especially not a difference of views. She said how she felt. Sane, rational people would have stopped being a fan and moved on if they disagreed. Instead they keep lying and threatening. It’s fucking ridiculous and shows that many trans people and their allies are everything they accuse us of being and worse.

/4. AGP exists- it’s a fucking fetish. Not all trans people have fetishes, many do.

I have no problem with Magdalene Burns comparison, and have yet to have a trans person explain how being trans is any different from the other identities we don’t take seriously. The best answer I got is that dysphoria is a recognized condition- problem is, dysphoria doesn’t mean you’re the opposite sex/gender. And has nothing to do with gender identity. I see no difference between someone claiming to be another race and a dude saying he’s a lady (or the reverse)

It’s a weak argument to say “there are many lesbians who think TW are women, think some are lesbians, and are willing to be with them”.

Okay? And? There are many who understand that males can’t be lesbians. So what does this even matter? And why are so many trans women complaining about people not wanting to date them? And what about the many lesbians who have spoken out about this issue and say that transwomen Who are attracted to women are straight men? We just gonna ignore them? You can’t claim the vast majority accept them, when the people who do accept them are banning and silencing the ones who don’t, and many of those forums and places the writer got their info from are run by ~~men~~ TW.

/5. LMAO at them saying she’s playing the victim. That’s fucking hilarious. She is being sent death and rape threats. They acknowledge this and then again dismiss it because “transphobia”. What actual harm has jk Rowling caused? What death threats has she sent? I can’t believe you read this and thought it was right and accurate and saw no issues with what this person is saying. There’s nothing to debunk because this person (the person tweeting) is an asshole who thinks their opinion is fact and is basing everything they say on it. I haven’t finished reading but I think that last sentence is the answer to the whole post. This is bullshit wrapped in “fact” and ideology that they take for granted the readers agree with. The lack of awareness is just overwhelming.

5b- they aren’t killing themselves because of us. They are mentally ill and it’s not being dealt with properly and they will never be able to make the world match their sense of identity. It’s fucking gross to blame others for the suicides of trans people.why is this the one condition that requires everyone to placate their mentality, instead of them learning how to cope with reality? They can do whatever they want to themselves- why do the rest of us have to participate? Do you not see how dangerous it is to place your mental health in the hands of others? Including complete strangers? And do you not see how fucked up it is to tell people “play along with my identity and claims, or I’ll kill myself and it’s your fault”?!

5c- here we go again with the emotional manipulation. TW are not the responsibility of females. It’s not our job to protect them or their feelings. If trans people are in danger then they should find solutions that don’t include a group of people completely unrelated to them. Females are also a protected and marginalized group. How do you defend taking away the rights and safety precautions of one protected class for the benefit of another? What other group has demanded this?

/6. She’s not obligated to donate to trans charities. What if she’s donating money to help in other ways?

We don’t know who her all of her supporters are. Many of them are doctors lol. She has a lot of supporters and I think this whole section is stupid. I see more support for her than disagreement. I see many people asking for clarification on what was even transphobic- and they aren’t getting answers because she didn’t say anything transphobic in her letter. Not agreeing with tras is not transphobic.

Nobody is actually addressing the concerns she voiced- they just keep saying her concerns are irrelevant. That’s dismissive bullshit. Why can’t they address the concerns? Again- you have to believe TWAW in order to not think TW are undermining female rights. He is taking this as a given. And that’s a huge flaw in this whole thread.

Honestly- the rest of the thread is just more bullshit. And my points above apply there so I’m not gonna break it down anymore. This is one of the most ignorant things I’ve ever read. Tras continually assume that their views are fact and accurate, and they base all of their argument on that assumption. That’s the problem. It only makes sense and isn’t offensive to people who already agree with them. Every single point he made was dismissive of JKR and any person who thinks similarly. It’s so easy to just throw out the word “transphobic” and use it to dismiss people. Not thinking a male is a woman or a female is a man or that a human can be neither male or female is not transphobic. Harming them (physically- not hurting their feelings by misgendering them or invalidating them) because you think that is what’s transphobic. This person is just a dismissive self righteous ass. I want those minutes I spent reading this bullshit back lol. I’d love for a tra to make an argument based on fact and to actually address and break down the concerns gc people have. They don’t do that and resort to what this person did because they can’t.

Tldr- nothing to debunk because nothing stated was based in fact.

emptiedriver · 2020-11-20T08:41:21+00:00

You need to start engaging in these threads or responding to people who put time into posting answers to you if you want to get thoughtful and detailed arguments. I am not going to go through every one of these when I expect you will just disappear, but yes, they can all be refuted.

What I will say is that his biggest confusion is 1d, where he says:

"1d. The distinction between the truth and JK's mischaracterisation is important - because no one is arguing that sex is not determined by biology.

This is a common transphobic attack to cast trans (and NB/intersex) rights in an absolutist light to make them seem absurd."

Yeah, no, they ARE absurd. They ARE arguing that sex is not determined by biology. Either absolutely blatantly and literally, or sometimes a little more confusedly by just saying that biology doesn't matter and everything which we have determined by biology in the past such as sports teams, private areas, medical treatments, statistics, sexual attraction and so on, should now be determined simply by someone's claim to identity. If you concede that sex is determined by biology but maintain it is not the difference between men and women then what are you even saying?

This is the key argument and really the issue which can make the rest of them clear. Trans women are biologically men. They may be welcome into women's circles in some contexts, but they cannot be expected to be categorized as women legally, medically, or automatically. That's just not the biological truth, and discussing that or how to handle that should not be a problem.

SnowAssMan · 2020-11-20T09:46:53+00:00

I was prepared to read through his whole thread, so be prepared to read through my entire reply.

Dude, his first "point" after the Maya stuff is that "she's setting herself up as an authority - & so has zero defence for why she's so woefully uninformed on this issue" – that's not a point. How did she manage to be more informed than Carter then? Is he even less informed? Give me a break.

The next point is that he doesn't think a certain age group is more affected by these issues than others. Even though it's supremely obvious that young girls or mothers with young daughter would be more affected by this issue than other women for instance, so he's wrong again, but even if he was right on this point, who cares? It's so trivial & pedantic.

He then goes on to make the unfounded claim that trans rights don't impinge on women's rights at all. He is forgetting about prisons, sports, shelters, even gynaecology & homosexuality – these single-sex areas are just validation playgrounds for trans-womxyn. World Rugby found that in their high-contact sport female players were at an increased risk of sustaining injury when playing with trans-womxyn players. Caitlyn Jenner won gold in the men's decathlon for God's sake. Sports are single-sex for a reason, making single sex spaces unisex would make separate spaces redundant.

Within the same aforementioned point he claims that the majority of women have no problem with trans-womxyn, but as we all know most people are ignorant. If you look at poles that inform the people taking them that trans-women, in the majority of cases, still have penises, then the results go in the other direction. The majority of men & women then suddenly have a problem with trans-womxyn sharing spaces with women.

His next point makes the unfounded claim that JKR is transphobic. And so no feminist can expose sexism in the trans movement, because that is making women the victims when trans people are always the victims, even when they are victimising others – is basically his argument. It falls to pieces on it's own, unless you're a misogynist.

He implies she never made a statement in support of trans people, even though she has. She doesn't support the ideological view that trans-womxyn are women. There are literal trans-women in this culture who also don't recognise trans-womxyn as women. Trans-womxyn in every culture of the world, no matter how trans-friendly the culture is, aren't recognised as women, usually men or third gender. So he is pretending that implying trans-womxyn are men is transphobic, when it clearly isn't. He won't recognise that his view is purely ideological, not factual.

He cherry-picks one tweet by MB. It's not relevant because: a) JKR didn't give that tweet a like or comment on it & b) it's not representative of MB's average tweet, it's an obscure exception. It's a common anti-feminist tactic to take a short blurb from a feminist to try to undermine feminism as a whole. JKR is allowed to describe someone in the kindness of terms without having reviewed every single last tweet they have ever posted. This "point" of his is severely patronising.

The trans movement has rhetoric that is homophobic sometimes. Pointing that obvious fact out is not "hiding behind lesbians". His counter-argument is that lesbians agree with him, so I guess a valid counter to that counter would be that there are trans people who agree with JKR?

When JKR humorously said that she is on her 5th cancellation that wasn't her trying to play the victim. She has the freedom to voice her thoughts on this issue, few other feminists or even women have that same privilege.

He talks about suicides among trans students. 2-3x as many members of the female sex compared to the male sex self-report having attempted suicide, regardless of how they identify. What does that tell you? More women attempt suicide than men, just as more trans-men attempt suicide than trans-womxyn. Compare like with like & trans-womxyn end up being men (who are more vulnerable than the average man, just as all GNC men are).

He claims that we must all say "trans-womxyn are women", despite the evidence to the contrary, in order to reduce harm to 0.2% of the population, no matter the cost to 52% of the population, & we must also never mention mental disorders (even though dysphoria is a mental disorder, the 'M' in "DSM-5" stands for 'mental disorders'), we must also never mention autogynaephilia, despite autogynaephiles vastly outnumbering trans-womxyn. This argument would be as invalid as saying we can never address sexism in the black community because racism exists which has been known to have fatal consequences. How about stop shouting "transphobia" every time someone wants to address sexism? "Transphobia!" is the new "misandREEEE!"

Next he says that composting a book is inoffensive, when a couple of tweets ago he was claiming that that example was her cherry-picking the worst examples. In the same breath he claims once again that JKR's "abuse" against trans people needs to be addressed. If JKR's benign essay is "abuse" of trans people, then Carter's thread is abuse of feminists, by his own standards. Once again he proves his hypocritical double standard.

I haven't the time to continue addressing every single post, & no one is going to read this reply anyway, which was probably the intention of his thread. Anyway he goes on to post an article about the 2011 Swedish study. His article however is from 2015. Here is a more up-to-date article on the Swedish study from this year: https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/

"One of the strengths of the 2011 Dhejne study is that an increase in mortality is clearly seen at around 10 years"

He makes another claim that trans-womxyn don't pose more of a physical threat to women (which World Rugby would disagree with), but say you found that gay men posed no more of a physical threat to women than women do, so what? Gay men are still men. Single-sex spaces are still single-sex spaces. They exist because of the differences between the sexes. Self-identification in no way justifies grouping trans-womxyn with women.

Britishbulldog · 2020-11-20T09:32:31+00:00

Got part of the way through. Never points out any actual transphobia, has zero consideration for women’s rights (like most men in this debate) and then misrepresents the Equality Act 2010 (which specifies ‘sex’, it does not say ‘gender identity’). So multiple flaws on a brief skim that didn’t get all the way through. Other GCs will pull it apart more thoroughly.

FlanJam · 2020-11-20T03:52:25+00:00

I'm not GC and idk half of what that dude is even talking about lol. Idk if I even agree with him or not. But just briefly looking thru the thread, there are a couple points I could nitpick:

2c. And - since trans rights don't actually impinge women's rights at all - neither the character nor Rowling is materially affected by the issue.

At all? Maybe he's being hyperbolic but surely he has to recognize its more complicated than that. If trans-activism truly didn't affect women's rights at all, I doubt GC would have any issue with them.

If you want to learn what the vast majority of the Lesbian community think about trans people, I recommend following @BellaRizinti.

Why does a random twitter account represent the majority of lesbians? Doesn't seem right to me.

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