GC: Do you genuinely desire to have more trans men in public positions (i.e. acting, politics)?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

Trans men are still going to exist.

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[–]censorshipment 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (56 children)

I don't desire to have more women identifying as trans men in existence, period. No, this doesn't mean I want women who believe they are (trans) men to die... this means I want women who believe they are (trans) men to snap the fuck out of that delusion and accept that they are women.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (38 children)

That's never going to happen. There will always be trans men. They will accept themselves as men, not women.

[–]SnowAssMan 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

You're describing a recent phenomenon which is mainly only occurring in the West, among the middle-classes. Why would you assume that trans-men will always think of themselves as men?

There is a movie from 1999 called Boys Don't Cry about a girl who wants to pass as a man (based on a real person). At the time she was a girl, nowadays we revise history to make her a he. 1999 wasn't that long ago. In just as little time the pendulum could swing right back again. Maybe once the economy is better & people are less into conformity, then we could see a return to gender abolition instead of gender appropriation.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

But Brandon Teena identified as a man. Their story hasn’t changed. I remember when the film came out and nothing has been revised about the story.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Then how come the film reviews at the time all refer to the character/person as a girl, using female pronouns throughout?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Because the character is female.? I’m sure what is considered correct or respectful in journalism has changed since it came out, but the story hasn’t. Brandon Teena was a transman and that is clear in the film.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But it's clearly not clear from the reviewers' perspective (I checked multiple ones). They all watched the movie, didn't they? "Trans-men are men" is a very recent claim. Maybe this individual was more like Gemma Barker.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I just read some reviews. I certainly haven’t read them all, but the fact Brandon identifies as a boy or man is present in all the ones I’ve seen. Brandon literally insists he is the entire movie. Have you seen it? I do think they weren’t necessarily as artful in referring to trans people back then, so maybe that’s what you picking up on. It was seen a lot more like extreme homosexuality by many so those words would be used. There are many situations where someone is historical is revised to be trans. This isn’t one of those though. Brandon Teena was a transman. He didn’t even die that long ago so many people who knew him are still around. The director of the film has said she intended to portray him as a transman.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I only watched the documentary. It reminded me very strongly of the more recent UK-based Gemma Barker story.

The only interview I saw of the director was just the same as the reviews, describing the character as a girl & using feminine pronouns. The interview only seems to confirm what I'm saying. The director said she herself was a tomboy & was looking for a story about a woman who subverted gender roles, by taking on the role of a man, she referenced female pirates.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I’m not really going to continue because I don’t feel like you are discussing this in good faith. That said, I am super disappointed, based on responses, that many here seem willing to rewrite the story of someone who literally died because they were trans. If it’s wrong to do that to lesbians and GNC women and it should be wrong to do that to transmen. Brandon deserves better.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I actually read the book "All He Wanted" by Aphrodite Jones; and there is no way he was was woman. He wasn't even like Buck Angel who lived as a lesbian for a while, he seemed to have extreme gender dysphoria. What was so depressing was in the book, he was actually diagnosed with GID and was supposed to have more therapy so he could get HRT, but for whatever reason decided to take off.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am fairly GC and even I think Brendan Teena identified as a man and wanted to live as one. Unlike someone like James Barry who had every reason to disguise their sex because women weren't supposed to be doctors; there was literally no reason for him to live as a man like that. If you read the book the movie was based on, he was in complete denial that he was even female and would lie to everyone and tell them he had an intesexed condition when they got suspicious.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You're describing a recent phenomenon

Trans men have existed since the beginning of time. Just for many years we haven't publically acknowledged trans people.

which is mainly only occurring in the West,

Trans men exist in 3rd world countries.

among the middle-classes.

Trans men come from all walks of life.

Why would you assume that trans-men will always think of themselves as men?

There is a movie from 1999 called Boys Don't Cry about a girl who wants to pass as a man (based on a real person). At the time she was a girl, nowadays we revise history to make her a he.

Even in the documentary, Brandon Teena openly identified as a man. It's just that back then, the media referred to trans people as "cross dressers". Nowadays the media acknowledges trans people but that only started fairly recently.

[–]SnowAssMan 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Revisionism. If you had your way you would categorise the Balkan Sworn Virgins as trans-men. Not every woman who lives as a "man" is a trans-man. Our understanding of transgenderism includes categorising trans-men as men & pathologising the identity – this approach is unique to the here & now.

I said mainly only occurring in the West, among the middle-classes, not 100% of them, the existence of exceptions doesn't dispute this point.

You're saying they were wrong back then, I'm saying they're wrong now. Nowadays even lesbians as feminine as Ellen Page question their gender. Our modern understanding of gender is clearly skewed. When we see any deviation from the norm the assumption is transgenderism.

In Brandon Teena's own words it's a 'sexual identity crisis' that we are dealing with – if you look that up you'll find a lot of results on homosexuality. Lesbians wanting to be boys is far too common to use it as a reference point for "trans-men are men". Lesbianism/gynaephilia is overrepresented in trans-men – what does that tell you? To the critical mind it's all too clear what that evidence points to.

Take the person's sexual orientation into account first before reaching your default conclusion.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that saying the Balkan Sworn Virgins are trans ids beyond offensive. And I also agree that there are way, way too many girls coming out as trans; actual transdgenderism is very rare. But, they do exist.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I said mainly only occurring in the West, among the middle-classes, not 100% of them, the existence of exceptions doesn't dispute this point.

It’s not mainly only occurring in the west. It’s occurring everywhere. That’s my point.

You're saying they were wrong back then, I'm saying they're wrong now. Nowadays even lesbians as feminine as Ellen Page question their gender.

So you have to be masculine to question your gender identity? So you have to espouse stereotypes of the other gender to question your gender?

When we see any deviation from the norm the assumption is transgenderism.

Not true. I know quite a few gender non-conforming women, including one who wears suits and ties and has short hair. She still identifies as a woman and goes by she/her.

In Brandon Teena's own words it's a 'sexual identity crisis' that we are dealing with – if you look that up you'll find a lot of results on homosexuality.

I’d assume that meant he was questioning whether he was a lesbian woman or a straight man. He ultimately decided he was a man.

Lesbians wanting to be boys is far too common to use it as a reference point for "trans-men are men".

If they have dysphoria of course they’re going to want to be boys. What? Only straight women have dysphoria?

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It’s not mainly only occurring in the west. It’s occurring everywhere.

mainly occurring somewhere & occurring everywhere is the same fucking thing, peabrain

So you have to be masculine to question your gender identity? So you have to espouse stereotypes of the other gender to question your gender?

that's what gender is, ignoramus, so yeah – duh

Not true. I know quite a few gender non-conforming women, including one who wears suits and ties and has short hair. She still identifies as a woman and goes by she/her.

You forgot to mention that she constantly gets misgendered, because what I said is true. Remember, I said 'we', not 'she'.

I’d assume that meant he was questioning whether he was a lesbian woman or a straight man. He ultimately decided he was a man.

What a convenient assumption. Too bad the evidence is to the contrary.

If they have dysphoria of course they’re going to want to be boys. What? Only straight women have dysphoria?

What? Only trans people have dysphoria? Seeing as 80% of kids with dysphoria desist, "cis" people with dysphoria outnumber trans people with dysphoria.

Your only setting seems to be: ignore trends & blow outliers out of proportion.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

mainly occurring somewhere & occurring everywhere is the same fucking thing, peabrain

I'm saying it's mainly occuring everywhere. There are roughly as many trans people in Kenya as there are in the US.

https://qz.com/africa/1184861/a-writers-account-of-transitioning-and-transcending-gender-shows-being-trans-is-not-un-african/

that's what gender is, ignoramus, so yeah – duh

That's not what gender is. Gender identity is a sense of your own gender. I am a woman who was born female. If I was born male, I would transition. The idea of being male recoils me. Even if I don't like stereotypically femininine things, I still want to be female.

Trans men can still wear dresses, cry, wear makeup, etc. Being transgender doesn't necessarily mean espousing stereotypes of the other sex.

You forgot to mention that she constantly gets misgendered, because what I said is true. Remember, I said 'we', not 'she'.

I've never in my life heard her get misgendered.

What a convenient assumption. Too bad the evidence is to the contrary.

He clearly identified as a trans man and wanted to live as a man.

What? Only trans people have dysphoria? Seeing as 80% of kids with dysphoria desist, "cis" people with dysphoria outnumber trans people with dysphoria.

Some people have dysphoria so severe it can only be alleviated by transition. These people are trans. Yes studies confirm in 80% of children, dysphoria does not persist past puberty. However, for 20% of children it does. There are children who are genuinely trans. I do oppose medically transitioning minors. I don't think kids should be allowed to start hormones until 16 and I think SRS should not be available to minors. However, I am fine with kids identifying as a different gender and going by different pronouns.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

try reading your own linked page next time. What part said that there are roughly as many trans people in Kenya as in the US? From the article:

"The possibility that I was an ogbanje occurred to me around the same time I realized I was trans, but it took me a while to collide the two worlds. I suppressed the former for a few years because most of my education had been in the sciences and all of it was Westernized — it was difficult for me to consider an Igbo spiritual world equally, if not more valid. The legacy of colonialism had always taught us that such a world wasn’t real, that it was nothing but juju and superstition. When I finally accepted its validity, I revisited what that could mean for my gender. Did ogbanje even have a gender to begin with?"

"I’ve never heard of anyone like this,” the surgeon told me. He was an old white man who had performed many surgeries on trans patients, from breast augmentations to double mastectomies. “Male to female, female to male, fine. But this in-between thing?"

"she may be an ogbanje, a spirit child that lives between cycles of reincarnation. Found in the Yoruba, Igbo and Urhobo cultures"

"Emezi’s essay is important, because it forces the reader to think beyond the western notions of gender. To Africans, it’s a reminder that our understanding of gender was never binary"

You can pretend that that's the same thing as "trans-men are men" & "trans-womxyn are women", but you'd be wrong.

So you're experiencing gender euphoria lol? I've got to be honest, I don't believe you when you say the thought of being male makes you physically recoil, or that you would transition if you were male. I've asked "cis" people if they would transition or just live with it, if they woke up one day as the opposite sex. They all said they'd make the best of it.

Gender: masculinity, femininity

Sex: male, female

Woman: adult, human female (+ feminine in the 'normative woman')

If a woman can be masculine &/or male, then wtf is a woman? – This is why calling 'woman' gender makes no sense. Even in linguistics gender is masculine & feminine (& neuter). Even if you examine identity theory: 'woman' is a social identity, not a personal identity. It's defined by society. As a person's personal identity salience increases, their social identity salience decreases. Women who are more salient with their personal identity identify less with being women, than those who are more salient with their social identity. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5645049/

I've never in my life heard her get misgendered.

And?

Look up 'sexual identity crisis' again – those are Brandon's own words. "Trans-man" are your words. Ever wondered if there are gay people who are actually trans? Ever wondered the reverse? As long as the fact remains that Brandon's sexual orientation was lesbian/gynophile there will always be a strong possibility that it was just another case of GNC lesbianism. A substantial number of desisters are homosexuals.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

If for girls it was possible in Kenya to become trans and receive men's privilege, or at least part of it - most women would do that. Same about India and many muslim countries. Women there almost rightless, so being "in between woman and man" would give so much for women. Between 200 to 300 million girls YEARLY are aborted or killed right after birth in those countries, because parents want only 1 kid and they don't want to have rightless and useless successor, so they are trying and trying until get a boy instead. Those girls does not even have a chance to "identify out of womanhood", they are just killed for being female human. And saying that woman/girls are the ones who identify as such erases this and many other problems completely. Women did not chosing to be oppressed, girls are not chosing to be killed before they can even see the light of day for the first time.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

try reading your own linked page next time.

I did. I said trans people are equally everywhere and span all socioeconomic backgrounds.

I've got to be honest, I don't believe you when you say the thought of being male makes you physically recoil, or that you would transition if you were male.

Than don't

I've asked "cis" people if they would transition or just live with it, if they woke up one day as the opposite sex. They all said they'd make the best of it.

That's them, not me.

Look up 'sexual identity crisis' again – those are Brandon's own words.

But Brandon Teena ultimately decided he was a trans man. These are his words, not mine. His friends said he planned to have SRS.

As long as the fact remains that Brandon's sexual orientation was lesbian/gynophile there will always be a strong possibility that it was just another case of GNC lesbianism.

GNC lesbians don't plan to have SRS. Trans men do. What if he was straight and transitioning to a gay man? Would there still be a possibility he wasn't trans?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

When the laws were "you do house work and have no rights for education or a job" and for doing "men's" job or getting education while being poor punishment was prison or death, the only way for woman to do anything at all was to present themselves as a man and hope that lies will not be detected, to avoid prison/death. When the only way for lesbians to be together, is for one of them to present as a man. All of them were not transmen, all of them were still women, who tried to achieve at least something, or to be together with their beloved. Similar laws were almost through whole history, and even nowadays at least third of women population in the world as still living under similar laws. Just wanting to live as they want is not making them trans, it makes the society they are in - misogynic and unfair to women. Such society must be challenged with feminism. If will to live normal life and not as a slave makes them men, then what - wanting to live bad life and be subordinated is women's destiny? I don't believe in this, and I know women are as capable as men. And if the only way for young women and girls to escape hate and live normally is to "stop being a women", then it is something really wrong with society around them. Like - really, really wrong.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

My high school had a pants protest in the 1940s. A girl was suspended for wearing pants to school where girls could only wear skirts, so a bunch of girls showed up to school wearing pants in protest.

None of those girls ever became men. They just wanted girls to be able to wear pants in school like boys can. People should only identify as trans if they have dysphoria, not because they don’t like gender norms. There are trans guys who wear dresses, like cis guys and that’s OK. Transgenderism shouldn’t be about gender roles.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But it is and that’s half the problem people have with it.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To an extent I agree. Some people feel they are non-binary because they wear certain clothes or like certain things. I don't agree with this. You identifying as another sex shouldn't have anything to do with stereotypes or roles.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why is it ok to enforce those stereotypes if you say “I’m non binary :)”?

Why do the stereotypes become good if someone likes them?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If society will not change, social pressure and hate towards gnc women will not go away, then yes, there will be transmen and there will be more and more, until only women left are transwomen.

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unfortunately.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Cuz all trans men are delusional? Or isn't that the logical conclusion from your statement?

[–]censorshipment 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

🤔 when you believe you're something you're not... ah fuck it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lmao I still don’t get how thinking you’re the opposite gender isn’t considered a delusion

[–]censorshipment 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Right. Reality is not real, I guess.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Reality is real, it’s just transphobic so we aren’t allowed to acknowledge it lol

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears[M] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Please keep in mind that this sub is for both QT and GC users to debate. This requires some respect for our believes, so blanket calling a side delusional doesn't fly here.

[–]censorshipment 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I used to pretend that my breasts didn't exist. Literally pretended that my chest was flat even though I had double D cups. Was I not delusional in believing my breasts didn't exist? This sub should respect detrans/desist folks' opinions, but it doesn't... didn't on Reddit either... I see nothing has changed.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry you had to go through that and that you don't feel welcome here. All we ask is for is that you're more mindfull in the way you word your opinios, especially when making blanket statements.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

If you felt you were delusional when you were trans, that is your right and I respect your opinion. But don't imply all or most trans men are delusional.

[–]censorshipment 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What's the definition of delusional? I think you all are willfully obtuse and purposely misconstrue. I'm not saying dysphoria doesn't exist... that's real... but the belief that bodies are "wrong" is the delusional part. The belief = the delusion.

Again, dysphoria is real... the mind literally plays tricks on dysphoric folks... but what we believe is not real.

I'm 37 and still have delusional moments of believing I am or should be a man. I literally tell my ex girlfriend to suck my dick, out of anger, and then have to say wait... I'm not a man, I don't have a dick. I have a misogynistic male alter ego that will not die, unfortunately.

Trans folks have called me an "egg" which is basically calling a "cis" person delusional... and I bet that's okay because it's pro-trans. 🙄

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Definition of delusion:

1

a

: something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated under the delusion that they will finish on schedule

delusions of grandeur

b

psychology : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary the delusion that someone was out to hurt him

also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

2

: the act of tricking or deceiving someone : the state of being deluded

… accused the Bohemian of having practised the most abominable arts of delusion among the younger brethren.

— Walter Scott

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

None of that really answers the question. Just say no, you don’t want trans men in public positions

[–]censorshipment 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I said what I said. I don't want more (women identifying as) trans men, period.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

That’s a non-sequitor. They exist, do you want them hidden from view?

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Their hormones can be taken away.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you seriously support that?

It may not be safe or healthy for natal female adults to go on testosterone, but if they are properly and fully informed of the risks, isn't it their choice to make?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Shouldn't grown adults be allowed to medically transition if they desire?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao why would we?

Why would gc want a woman who espouses the gender doctrine in a position of fame or power in particular?

What do you think gc is?

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think whoever is qualified for a job should get it. If we're going to criticize a politician, it should be based on their policies, not their feelings about their biological sex. It upset me in the last election to see some GC people hating on trans women candidates merely for being trans. Like, okay, let's first find out whether their trans status has any negative effect on their work. If it does, we should complain about that, nothing else.

As far as trans men are concerned, as long as they're qualified for whatever work they're doing, I have no desire for them to hide away and avoid public life. They're citizens. They have every right to live their lives just like anyone else does.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If you are talking about recent ones, then the reason there was not because they are trans, reason was because in places where "one spot for man and one for woman" - they took 20 women places (actually 22), out of the women who could take those places and represent women views and problems. Even if consider that transwomen are women, they are still big minority and they do not have majority of experiences and problems that women have. Transwomen's and women's problems and needs are not intersectional - there very few points of connection. So losing women's places to transwomen is not good for women in general and that is why GC are mad on this.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh yeah, I wasn't familiar with that. I was talking about the American election. Several trans candidates won their races fair and square.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Most famous from them is that one from New York year ago, who took 2 spots out of 2 women of color, and took "female leadership" position in NYC Democratic Council. And he "became a woman" right before first elections few years ago (lost a spot back then, but next time won spot), who have erection almost all the time on public: https://i.imgur.com/CQ3FwuD.png and now represents women needs and problems.

If you mean about senators (or how those positions are called), then it still shows power distribution same as men vs women, even after transition - 20 transwomen and 1 transman were elected. That was GC complain as well, that (most, as some have it other way around) transwomen are still holding most male privileges and male socialization even after transition and are overrepresented.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

it still shows power distribution same as men vs women, even after transition - 20 transwomen and 1 transman were elected.

That's true. Lifelong privilege and socialization doesn't go away just because someone changes their identification. We should point out the disparity because this is not a win for sex equality. However, that doesn't mean that the people who were elected fair and square shouldn't have won their seats. Some posters on Ovarit seemed pissed off by the very fact that trans people had been elected. This is the kind of stuff that gets us tagged as bigots. It shouldn't matter if they're transgender or not. We should judge them the same as we would any other politician.

[–]DistantGlimmer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The way this is phrased makes it kind of hard to answer. I have concerns about young GNC girls being pressured into thinking they are transmen but as far as wanting them in "public positions" sure. This actually means more females in public positions regardless of how they identify so sure I think it's a positive. They pose almost none of the issues that transwomen do with regards to spaces either.

If only transmen were much more visible and (misogynistic which often at least seems like the majority ) transwomen much less.

[–]PassionateIntensity 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As what? Are they taking the spots of women or men? Women? no. Men? don't care. If Elliot Page is no longer a woman then Page shouldn't be taking acting roles playing women (this is a position Page previously agreed with). Elliot can play transmen of course. I have no opinion of a casting directing hiring Page to play a man, except it'll probably be a hard sell on screen.

I don't believe transmen are all victims and couldn't harm women with their advocacy. Stephen Whittle, Chase Strangio, and Freddy McConnell being prime examples of doing their damnedest to destroy women's rights.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is question with many answers.

If transmen will be taking men's spots, then maybe yes, that would be good. So far transmen in politics are still taking women's positions. Same as transwomen are taking women's positions. Same as toilets, men's are for "cis" men, women's for everyone else.

If transmen will be taking women's spots - then no.

If transmen will be taking men's positions and a lot of them, then no again. It will show for young girls and teen women that "you can not be successful as a woman, to be successful you need to transition into a man". So even more transmen will become trans only because being a "cis" woman in this society will not give you any chances to be successful or viewed as equal. Basically it will be like 100-200 and more years ago in sexist societies, when only way for woman to do any job was to pretend she is not a woman, as women were not allowed to do "men's" jobs by law and were forced to be housewifes and punished by prison or death for doing what they wanted. And it is already happening with transmen, when majority of them do not want to be a man, they want to be something other than a woman, and only for social reasoning - modern society is too misogynistic. While "real" transman should be wanting to be a man, same as transwomen want to be a woman. And those - will not want that, they will want to have a chance to be themselves, without social pressure and hate, while being a woman.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not really clear on what you're asking.

I think most GC people do not want more trans men or trans women to exist than is absolutely unavoidable - that is, that we should pursue body positive, gay positive, therapeutic options first, and if a person finds after exploring other ways of looking at the situation that they are truly unable to be happy unless they live as the other sex, then they can look into taking hormones. If there's no medical intervention, it's not even clear what "being trans" means, but they can change their names and dress as they please of course.

However, that should not give them access to sports teams or other sex-divided groups, and it shouldn't confuse kids about basic biology. Even if you do transition your birth certificate shouldn't be changed since you were still born one way or the other. You could get a transition certificate though.

If you're not taking steroids, you're just a woman with short hair, so no certificate needed, and sure, happy to see more butch women around, but don't pretend you're not female. If you find you really do need to take steroids and get surgery, I can accept that - I probably categorize it as some kind of weird hormonal imbalance or unknown cause thing or possibly social anxiety /self-directed homophobia, but just don't know. I would not ask people to suffer if it is truly the only way to find a happy time on this earth, but I can't quite conceive of it being the healthiest version of a person.

I have no interest in more or less of people with mild mental/hormonal disorders being in politics. It's not a problem (if it's not affecting work) but I don't see it as a great achievement either.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Where did you get the idea that GC wanted this?

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't desire more women to pretend they're men because they bought into the idea that this is the politically correct way to escape their oppression. The fact that misogynistic dynamics keep favouring men over women even when the individuals think and insist they're the opposite sex is merely a testament to how little just saying "I'm a real boy!" matters, and that maybe we should be focusing on fixing these inequalities instead of telling people they can avoid them just by changing pronouns.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I am fine with trans men and women in public positions. What bothered me about the whole Eliot Page thing was how it wad handled. Eliot Page was Ellen Page for a long time in the public eye and is still technically a woman. How can you even say your are a man, when you haven't even tried living as one yet? I also hated how everyone immediately switched pronouns and names; and it honestly reminded me of why I low key hate celebrities. No one else would be able to do that. The reason they got that treatment is because of their fame, not because people genuinely see them as a man.

[–]DogeWalker 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao...