all 84 comments

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not at all clear what you mean by gender, gender identity and gender roles here.

Most QT seem to define these solely as superficial things like fashion choice, grooming styles, mannerisms and sexual proclivities. Not by things that evolution might have caused the two sexes to be more or lesser attuned to - and quicker/slower to respond to, and to respond appropriately and meaningfully to - such as the sound of a newborn crying.

Both the mother and father of a newborn might be equally loving and doting towards the child and respond to the child in visceral ways. But it's only the female parent whose breasts will respond to the child's wailing and needs. The child can suckle the nipples of either male or female parent and get comfort from the contact. But only the female will be able to produce breastmilk that sustains the child with all the nutrients and immune benefits the child needs. On the other hand, only the female parent's uterus will have a verifiable response to the newborn's suckling. Male internal organs such as the prostate won't be affected at all if the baby attaches to the father's nipple.

I'm in the US, where Thanksgiving occurred recently. How many men do you know who say they are transwomen put in the effort planning, shopping, prepping and cooking the feast that so many women customarily do?

Christmas is coming up. Every woman I know has a list of the gifts she is getting or making for her relatives and her partner's relatives on behalf of her, her partner (and their children, if any). None of the men I know - including trans-identified ones - are putting in this kind of effort, never have. Most of them don't even think ahead to purchase gift wrapping, ribbons, tape and cards in advance the way women do.

When my children were younger, their father was shocked that I had memorized the phone numbers of all their doctors, their US Social Security numbers, and the ID numbers on their individual insurance cards and passports. And that I had made files for each documenting their growth, development, doctors visits, school reports etc since birth. I thought that was just being a responsible parent. Their father said it never occurred to him to do any of that.

To me that's a clear demonstration of sex role differences. But today's gender mumbo jumbo seems to mean mainly fashion, makeup and hairstyle choices and sex positions/activities.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

GC

Well we know that effeminate men exist. 'Femininity' is sometimes naturally occurring. If they were to embrace their feminine side then they'd be living as their true self. Our culture may have come up with femininity & everything that defines it, but it would make sense that 0.1% of the population happens to naturally be what our culture has defined as feminine. What doesn't make sense is that 52% of the population just so happen to be born that way too.

In the past pink was for boys & they used to wear dresses until they were 'breeched'. So what if our culture exchanged everything that defines femininity with everything that defines masculinity, would all "cis" people become gender dysphoric? They would if gender was innate & not a social construct.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Well we know that effeminate men exist. 'Femininity' is sometimes naturally occurring. If they were to embrace their feminine side then they'd be living as their true self. Our culture may have come up with femininity & everything that defines it, but it would make sense that 0.1% of the population happens to naturally be what our culture has defined as feminine. What doesn't make sense is that 52% of the population just so happen to be born that way too.

I don't think it's accurate to describe these men as "effeminate" or displaying "femininity." Males who don't conform to rigid concepts of masculinity are often described as effeminate and feminine - but the people making those characterizations seem mostly to be other men, and women who parrot this terminology without examining and challenging it.

Lots of boys and men think not being masculine is the same as having characteristics typical or common amongst the female half of the human race. But if you look look at these supposedly feminine and effeminate men and the majority of the world's girls and women, I don't think you'll find that this is the case.

Men who are characterized as "effeminate" and "feminine" in their own eyes and the eyes of other men tend to be flamboyant, vain, histrionic, attention-seeing, narcissistic, overly concerned with their appearance, prickly, with forceful personalities and an exaggerated squeamishness and delicacy. They tend to be grandiose self-pleasers, not shrinking violet other-pleasers. These guys are not shy, self-effacing, blend-into-the-background, put-themselves-last, self-sacrificing types who are focused on caring for and catering to others the way so many girls and women have been brought up to be. These men are not quick to swallow their anger or to shut up and "know their place" the way so many women and girls have been raised to be. These men don't spend their days worrying about not giving offense and trying to suss out whether everyone around them is happy, fed, clean and warm the way women and girls are taught to do from the get-go.

As far as I can tell, there's been no trend of all these supposedly feminine and effeminate men in droves entering the helping occupations that are predominated by women. Huge numbers of these guys aren't champing at the bit to become cleaners, nursery or elementary school teachers, or carers whose days are filled with wiping the snotty noses, drooling mouths and shitty asses of small children and the elderly and infirm. They don't aspire to be administrative assistants or cashiers. They want to work in showbiz, design, the arts. They see themselves as above "women's work."

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Masculinity isn't rigid though. You can be anything if you are a man, without compromising your gender identity, except being feminine, which is a lot more narrowly defined. Whether you're analytical, or creative, leader or soldier, scientist or athlete your masculinity isn't compromised.

Visually it's very easy to be masculine too. You can present yourself as gender neutral & no one is going to mistake you for a woman. You can shave off your facial hair & wear a t-shirt & jeans, vs. if a woman is flat chested, doesn't wear makeup & has short hair, all of a sudden she is confused for a boy, just because she isn't saturated in feminising gender indicators.

"Masculinity" includes "neutrality". "Neutrality" is only "masculine" in women.

To the main part of your reply:

There is a difference between the socialised gender identity of women & femininity. Women are socialised into the role that is equivalent to indentured servitude.

Our culture has a madonna whore complex. On the one hand women are virginal, domesticated (de-clawed) care-givers & breeding vessels & on the other hand they are status symbols, delicate ornaments/representations of leisure (impractical hair, nails, clothes for any kind of work other than living decoration), fetishised masturbation aides.

Men will often categorise women as one type or the other. They represent a man's sexual phases (refractory period & arousal, respectively). Modesty vs. exhibitionism, girl-next-door vs. femme fatale. Perhaps it's the latter version of femininity that feminine men relate/conform to, as they lack the socialisation required for the former.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

What you said proves my point, which was:

Males who don't conform to rigid concepts of masculinity are often described as effeminate and feminine - but the people making those characterizations seem mostly to be other men, and women who parrot this terminology without examining and challenging it.

Now you say

Our culture has a madonna whore complex. On the one hand women are virginal, domesticated (de-clawed) care-givers & breeding vessels & on the other hand they are status symbols, delicate ornaments/representations of leisure (impractical hair, nails, clothes for any kind of work other than living decoration), fetishised masturbation aides.

Men will often categorise women as one type or the other. They represent a man's sexual phases (refractory period & arousal, respectively). Modesty vs. exhibitionism, girl-next-door vs. femme fatale. Perhaps it's the latter version of femininity that feminine men relate/conform to, as they lack the socialisation required for the former.

But by "our culture" you mean a culture shaped by what some misogynistic men historically have said and still say today - not what all the human beings in "our culture" have agreed on. The views you cite are entirely the views of some men, misogynists all, who look at women through their own male gaze, without empathy or understanding that girls and women are human beings too with our own internal lives and experiences, not just breeding vessels, holes for fucking or masturbation aides.

We female humans are the people from whom all you men with your misogynistic "whore/madonna" BS came from, who have made all of civilization and human history possible from the dawn of time. And you know what - some men know this. Coz not all men are misogynists.

The 51% of the population who are female were never consulted in coming up with the sexist, misogynistic typology you cite as the human cultural norm. Yes, there are women who parrot this typology, but they are just going along with and pandering to the misogynistic male POV coz they don't see any other option or they can't see the forest for the trees.

You speak to me as if you think what you say is news handed down from on high. You really think feminists haven't been examining the views you present for many decades?

Also, why on earth should women be defined by what goes on in the psyches of some misogynistic males during what you say are their stages of sexual arousal?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Culture isn't democratic, if that's what you mean. However, everyone has an implicit bias against women, which is why women's lives don't improve when women are in charge. What has changed in government since women got the vote? We're all programmed the same. Why do female authors write well-rounded male characters & stereotypically feminine ones? Everyone is looking at women through the male gaze. Women look at themselves that way. That's why identity politics can't be relied upon. It's why Fox News can always find a black person to say something racist or a woman to say something sexist, & why the the Conservative party can be lead by a woman etc.

It's like cultural imperialism. Even members of the dominant culture are being dominated by their own culture. Our views of women are cultural in origin. You seem to suggest that these views are actually biological/or free will in origin & are only present in specific men you call misogynists.

Every employer is a misogynist if anonymous resumés & blind auditions result in a higher yield of female employees. Every mother is a misogynist when she dances to every whim & grunt from her infant son, over-estimating his abilities, spoiling him, making him into the inarticulate, entitled, assertive, obnoxious man he becomes, while giving her daughter the reverse treatment. Misogynistic women don't have free will, but misogynistic men do? Everyone is a victim of culture. Some are socialised into the role of bully, others into the role of bullied.

What on Earth are you talking about when you say not all men are misogynists? Not all men are explicitly misogynistic, but all men & women are implicitly misogynistic, which is why sexism is an 'ism'. It's an ideology that is part of the status quo. Prejudice against women is systemic.

You speak to me as if you think what you say is news handed down from on high. You really think feminists haven't been examining the views you present for many decades?

No idea what you're getting at here. So I'm telling you things that you have already heard before, that you disagreed with then & will continue to disagree with now? And? As far as I am aware everything I'm saying is concordant with feminist consensus. I'm pretty sure 99.9% of everything I have said on this topic has been said before by a feminist. The 'feminising gender indicators' is a phrase coined by Anita Sarkeesian.

Also, why on earth should women be defined by what goes on in the psyches...

Femininity is defined that way, because culture is not objective. Women are the cultural other, so of course femininity is going to have a narrow definition & negative connotation. It's true of every norm vs. other "binary". Why do 'night' & 'black' have negative connotations? Our culture others them.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Everyone is looking at women through the male gaze. Women look at themselves that way.

Sez you, LOL. How many women have you interviewed about how they see themselves? What ages were they?

Every mother is a misogynist when she dances to every whim & grunt from her infant son, over-estimating his abilities, spoiling him, making him into the inarticulate, entitled, assertive, obnoxious man he becomes, while giving her daughter the reverse treatment.

Pray tell, cite all the studies of child-rearing practices that say these are universal practices. Sounds like you're basing your assumptions on practices in places like the ME and India. Lots of mothers all around the world, particularly in Western nations, haven't raised their children that way. Seems to me you have no experience raising children yourself, nor have you observed at close range how children in the West are raised.

Also, you seem to be blaming misogyny on women. WTF?

I'm pretty sure 99.9% of everything I have said on this topic has been said before by a feminist. The 'feminising gender indicators' is a phrase coined by Anita Sarkeesian.

Anita Sarkeesian is your definition of a feminist? And a feminist thinker? Good lord. No wonder we seem to be speaking different languages from different planets.

Women are the cultural other, so of course femininity is going to have a narrow definition & negative connotation. It's true of every norm vs. other "binary".

This is male-supremacy-speak.

Why do 'night' & 'black' have negative connotations? Our culture others them.

"Night" and "black" and "dark" have negative connotations in virtually every culture on earth over time cause humans, unlike species such as bats, can't see in the dark. Light is prized and dark seen as less positive coz it took a very long time for our species to master fire, and only relatively recently in our history did humans come up with methods of illumination such as tallow candles, beeswax candles, chandeliers, mirror-backed candles, gaslight and electric lights that allowed us to see, socialize, read and generally function from sunset to dawn.

Virtually all cultures on earth were sun-worshipping ones. Coz sunlight allows humans to see and gives warmth. Hence, light is prized. Darkness, by contrast, is regarded as a negative, for reasons anyone who has lived through a blackout sans flashlights or generators can tell you.

Black also has negative connotations coz it long has been associated with dirt and soot on cloth and on surfaces like walls. This has nothing to do with skin color, in case that's what you're thinking.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

“Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.” – Atwood

Gender Bias in Mothers' Expectations about Infant Crawling:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022096500925979

"Adults respond differently to communicative efforts of boys and girls. A study of infants aged 13 months found that when boys demand attention - by behaving aggressively, or crying, whining or screaming - they tended to get it. By contrast, adults tended to respond to girls only when they used language, gestures, or gentle touches; girls who used attention-seeking techniques were likely ignored. There was little difference in the communicative patterns at the start of the study, but by the age of two, the girls have become more talkative and boys more assertive in their communicative techniques"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_gender#Gender_and_socialization

How am I "blaming misogyny on women" when I say everyone in our culture has the same implicit bias against women?

The 'feminising gender indicators' is a neologism originating from a video by Feminist Frequency that applies the 'norm vs. other' philosophy (the same approach used by Simone de Beauvoir) to video game character design. I don't think the analysis loses its merit just because Anita Sarkeesian may have other views that are incongruous to feminist theory. The fact that her views are contradictory means that some of them are right, or do you think she is consistently wrong?

This is male-supremacy-speak.

This is he-who-smelt-it-dealt-it speak.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Why are you quoting Margaret Atwood? You think she speaks for all women? A lot of women consider her misogynistic. She is speaking of a particular kind of woman in that passage - a dick-pandering kind of woman who only cares about what men see, and who has incorporated the male gaze into her own psyche. But trust me, I'm a woman who is almost as old as Atwood and a whole lot of women don't think that way.

Also, AFAIK, Atwood has not had nor raised any children so in a discussion of infant childrearing I don't think she has anything worthwhile to say.

The first study you linked to is only accessible if I pay a fee. But generally speaking, studies that show adults respond differently to the communication of boys and girls tend to be flawed coz the adults already know the sex of the children being studied.

A study of infants aged 13 months found that when boys demand attention - by behaving aggressively, or crying, whining or screaming - they tended to get it. By contrast, adults tended to respond to girls only when they used language, gestures, or gentle touches; girls who used attention-seeking techniques were likely ignored.

Can't you see how sexist the framing is here? Boys of barely more than a year are described as "behaving aggressively, or crying, whining or screaming." But the girls of the same age are said to have "used language, gestures, or gentle touches." What is "behaving aggressively" in a child of that age? How can a girl of 13 months use language? The language skills of kids that age are very limited - they can have some limited understanding of what adults say, but they can't speak themselves beyond perhaps a few simple words like "mama" and "dada" and "baba."

And in this framing, children of both sexes who are barely a year old are demonized for using "attention-seeking techniques." This is ageism against the very young. Of course, 13-month old humans use "attention-seeking techniques" like crying and screaming. Coz they haven't yet mastered the ability to use words to make their feelings and needs known. Coz they are 13 months old.

How am I "blaming misogyny on women" when I say everyone in our culture has the same implicit bias against women?

You said

Every mother is a misogynist when she dances to every whim & grunt from her infant son, over-estimating his abilities, spoiling him, making him into the inarticulate, entitled, assertive, obnoxious man he becomes, while giving her daughter the reverse treatment.

As if this is the universal norm. But not every woman raises her sons and daughters this way. And women aren't the only ones involved in raising children.

What you say is the universal norm is nothing like how I was raised or how I raised my own children.

Nor is the way you paint all men with your broad brush an accurate universal description. Not all men are "inarticulate, entitled, assertive, obnoxious" as you say. Not all women are the reverse. You seem to think all men and women are just cardboard caricatures of the sexist stereotypes you hew to.

You also claim everyone - female and male - has the same bias against women you think is the norm. Sorry, you come off as if you live in Stepfordland.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I feel like I'm talking to an MRA, you ask for sources then when I furnish you with perfectly legitimate ones you try to undermine them with the most ridiculous accusations:

"All babies need attention, therefore a study showing boys are given more attention than girls can be dismissed on just that premise alone. Also, babies aren't aggressive & they can't talk at that age, so everyone involved in the study is completely incompetent, unlike me. Also Atwood has said sexist things, which makes everything she has ever said sexist, so I don't need to address her quote. However my own anecdotal evidence about me, myself & I is totally legitimate somehow" – Redonkulous.

And women aren't the only ones involved in raising children

– Ugh, imagine if I had said that to you, you'd probably accuse me of diminishing the work that mothers put into parenting that fathers who are essentially neglectful parents don't do & that I'm making a false equivalence.

Men & women aren't caricatures, but exceptions don't dispute trends. If I'd said: men are stronger than women, you'd dispute that by claiming that not all men are strong & not all women are weak. "What about exceptions?" is just as fallacious as when MRAs say "what about men?".

Me: men & women are prejudiced against women, not just men, here is the evidence that women are sexist too

You: you seem to be blaming women

Me: face palms

You also claim everyone - female and male - has the same bias against women you think is the norm

That's what the evidence points to:

"female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student":

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474.short

Gender pay gap children's pocket-money:

https://www.lloydsbankinggroup.com/Media/Press-Releases/2015/halifax/childrens-pocket-money-falls-for-the-second-year-in-a-row.html

Parents Explain More Often to Boys Than to Girls During Shared Scientific Thinking

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/12/3/258.short

The eye of the beholder: Parents' views on sex of newborns.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/ort/44/4/512/

Girls lose faith in their own talents by the age of six (changes take place within 1 year):

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-38717926

I mean, what do you understand 'systemic sexism' to mean? Do you think it's "painting everyone with a broad brush"? Trends > outliers, & no, that's not "generalising".

This is how norm vs. other works:

normal vs. abnormal

day vs. night

heterosexual vs. homosexual

masculinity vs. femininity

Norm = default. If I tell you I was walking down the street, met a person & we had a conversation, you'd know that the person is able-bodied, white, male & our conversation was in English & it was during the day, even though I didn't say so, because I didn't say otherwise. This explains why our culture creates "binaries" & why these "binaries" appear to be "hierarchical", it's because they aren't binaries & they aren't hierarchical. They are just synonyms for normal vs. abnormal. Normal means average, not above-average, so it's not a hierarchy.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Wow, just wow. You seem to have a lot of issues that go beyond this convo.

If I had said that to you, you'd probably accuse me of diminishing the work that mothers put into parenting that fathers who are essentially neglectful parents don't do & that I'm making a false equivalence.

What? I'm a stranger on the internet. You have no way of knowing what I might say in response to a hypothetical comment you might make.

fathers who are essentially neglectful parents

I'm a lifelong feminist pushing 70. This characterization of yours is sexist, as is the way you portray mothers and infants of both sexes. What world do you live in where it's the norm for fathers to be "neglectful parents"? And for all mothers raising or who've ever raised children to be horrible misogynists and male supremacists the way you characterize us?

My impression is that you have zero firsthand experience with infants, have done no childrearing yourself, and have little to no interaction with people engaged in raising children.

If I'd said: men are stronger than women, you'd dispute that by claiming that not all men are strong & not all women are weak. "What about exceptions?" is just as fallacious as when MRAs say "what about men?".

Huh? If you said men are stronger than women, I wouldn't dispute that at all.

Where do you get off with all these predictions about what I would say and how I would react? You seem to think you not only can read minds, but you can read the minds of total strangers on the internet - and in the future too.

You don't know me or have any idea of what I think. The fact that you believe you do makes you seem arrogant and imperious. And clueless.

Norm = default. If I tell you I was walking down the street, met a person & we had a conversation, you'd know that the person is able-bodied, white, male & our conversation was in English & it was during the day, even though I didn't say so, because I didn't say otherwise. This explains why our culture creates "binaries" & why these "binaries" appear to be "hierarchical", it's because they aren't binaries & they aren't hierarchical. They are just synonyms for normal vs. abnormal. Normal means average, not above-average, so it's not a hierarchy.

What? This scenario you've sketched is preposterous, and your assumptions are offensive. I wouldn't "know" any of the things you say I'd automatically know coz the assumptions you make in said scenario and assume that everyone else would make are ableist, racist, sexist - and definitely not the assumptions I'd ever make.

I know and routinely encounter on the street at all hours of night and day people of both sexes and different skin colors who speak various languages - Spanish, Korean, Russian, Farsi, Mandarin, German, Khmer, ASL... Some people I meet and speak to in the street on a regular basis are in strollers, some are in wheelchairs. I sometimes have to use a wheelchair myself.

Look at your own words: you've just said in that post that you think you as an able-bodied, English-speaking male represent what's "normal" and "average" - and everyone else who differs from you is abnormal non-standard.

Wow, just wow.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah this is a really, REALLY good point. Nursing is pretty damn female dominate, yet you would never hear a male nurse called feminine or …same with teaching.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Well we know that effeminate men exist. 'Femininity' is sometimes naturally occurring

How can you be critical of gender and also think femininity is naturally occurring.

That seems contradictory to the basic starting position.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

All the traits we categorise as feminine could be naturally occurring in a minority of the population, just not the majority of the population. It's like how aliens are made-up by human, but the universe is so large that even though the vast majority of planets don't support iife, it's almost certain that there are planets that support life, due to the sheer unlikelihood against the possibility.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So feminine behaviours could mostly manifest in women and masculinity mostly manifests in men wouldn't that be gender norms?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Nope, it's probably just as rare in women too (naturally occurring).

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Let me get this right, you think men and women are naturally equally masculine and feminine?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Huh? 99% of them, no. But there is a possibility that <1% of the population have traits in common with femininity. Some men are effeminate.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Some men are effeminate.

But the majority aren't. The majority are masculine. Where as the majority of women are feminine. It's a universal rule. There are no cultures that break that rule.

You're saying you can see no pattern?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Masculinity & femininity aren't naturally occurring in men & women respectively, clearly, in general, but obviously, because there are so many human beings that there exists the possibility that a small number of people just so happen to naturally be feminine or masculine irrespective of the individuals being male or female. I feel like I've said the same thing over & over again, but somehow you're still not getting it. It's not that complicated & it's not that controversial.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I think he is just anti-trans rather than gender critical.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

"Gender critical" is vague. I'm gender abolitionist. When are you going to substantiate that accusation of yours? Oh right, never.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

You are arguing right above this comment that some amount of people have naturally occurring femininity or masculinity. It’s a gender essentialist position.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Do you really think it's impossible for someone to have a natural affinity for something, despite it being a construct? Just because the notion that 50% of the population likes make-up innately is not correct doesn't mean the true answer must be 0%. How is it essentialist to suggest that a fraction of the population, regardless of sex, just so happens to naturally possess the traits that our culture has called 'femininity' & arbitrarily decided that it's only appropriate for women – all women? Just look up a list of feminine traits. It's entirely possible that out of billions of people hundreds of thousands of them just so happen to possess those traits naturally.

Either substantiate or take back your accusation pls.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

In third of the world make up is not allowed for women and few centuries ago make up was mainly for men only and counted as masculine and showing power. The world is mostly non-binary it seems - they are doing man and woman wrong!

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I feel like you are misunderstanding me. I don’t disagree with you. Some of us are naturally very feminine or very masculine. In males, being very feminine is correlated with homosexuality. I’m just pointing out it’s an essentialist position, even if you say it doesn’t occur in most people. No reason not to be honest about that.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exceptions exist ≠ essentialist. Plus, a huge chunk of femininity is objectification (sexual & otherwise), which is not naturally occurring in anyone.

How is any of what I'm saying contradictory, or anti-trans?

[–]grixitperson 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Disagree. If a man does something that makes it masculine. Doing something that someone else decided was feminine, does not make him feminine, it makes the other person wrong. And vice versa for women and so called masculine things. And if there are things that both men and women have been known to do, it just means those things are human.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In different cultures things that are considered "feminine" here are "masculine" there. In India men and women are wearing same cloths, only fabric is different. Asian men are "more feminine" looking by western "masculinity" standarts, and they often wearing make up as well (and just a century ago even lipstick). Skirts are popular among men in Sri Lanka and India even nowadays, in many mid-african countries men are wearing dresses and skirts. Hawaii with men's line dancing as well: https://i.imgur.com/FMNpsYH.png (those are often very hot to watch, with hot men). In some african countries in few ethnicities (don't remember how they are called) - men are wearing skirts, doing make up, to make a beauty contest, where they are showing their beauty and trying to impress not married women. On the West men doing the same would be called cross-dressers or very feminine, or laughed and bullied out for not being "manly enough".

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do feel like there is some arbitrariness in masculinity or femininity and different culture see it different. People can and should be however they want of course. I don’t think there is anything that only women do or only men do (outside of actual reproduction) so everything is human I think. I have a hard time understanding how there can be nothing at all to it when some of us seem more wired towards one way than the other way and that correlates with homosexuality. Someone of us just are that way and it’s true before we have sexual feelings. That makes it where I can’t be completely blank slate about it for everyone.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It’s both depending on what you mean.

Like gender roles are constructed. We don’t just naturally say sports are for boys and girls need to shave and have long hair. That’s all constructed.

However some people do have natural (or reactive) attraction to behaviors that have been attached to those roles.

But what gender you are as far as body identity and dysphoria I believe to be at least somewhat innate though capable of being aggravated or exascerbated by life experiences. That is to say which direction you naturally point is set but how much it is a need to align with it may be variable based on experience.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

So. I think it's important to distinguish gender identity to gender roles.

Let's start with gender roles. Where do they come from?

I believe it's a mixture of nature and nurture. Women aren't as strong as men and are way less expandable from a survival standpoint. This means that in a society it would make sense to safeguard women, not sending them into wars, so a society can bounce back from loosing a war. Now depending on how society deals with this premise it can go one of two ways. In societies where strength is dominant men will be as well. In a society where wisdom is dominant woman can be, since their wisdom is less likely to be lost in war or battle.

Men becoming more dominant would then lead to women becoming more oppressed, since men want to hold onto their power. And what the easiest way to achieve that? Keep them both weak and stupid. Gender roles, roles one getts assigned by society based on sex, are one of the most important tools to keep men in power.

I'm somewhat transmed, so gender identity to me is just the identification with the other sex. What causes this? I have no idea. I have seen the hypothesis of shorter androgen receptors in trans women's brains floating around, but the studies to me seem inconclusive and I don't see a way to study this in an ethical way. So I'm open to any convincing evidence. For now, Im 80% positive it exists, but I don't know why.

Gender roles are forced on us every day. Following them stems Imo from a desire to fit in. Not many people would choose the outgroup, since it's a hassle and the immediate consequences of doing so are social. We're social animals after all.

Trans people follow the same principle, we're people after all, plus the added desire of wanting to be the other sex. If you want to be something, you'll try your best to become that, however impossible it may seem thus gender roles become a tool that helps achieving that. I don't think many people are conscious about why they do it, since they haven't thought about it a lot.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (42 children)

A biological instinct to imprint onto perceived groups on the basis of sex traits and then to replicate observed behavior

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Like a duckling?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

Exactly like a duckling.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

Lmao

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

🦆

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

So transgender people see people of the opposite sex and they imprint onto them. Why does this happen? When does the imprinting occur? Why do other people not imprint at all?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

My theory is it evolved to facilitate absorbing local sex trait linked group behavior that was too complex and too mutable to be developed instinctually. These would be things like complex courtship behaviors, childcare behaviors, tool use, food strategies, and group dynamics between sex trait groups (i.e. patriarchal chimpanzees and matriarchal bonobos).

I would think imprinting would be strongest in childhood, possibly peaking in adolescence, but that to some degree it could continue for an individual’s entire life.

Who knows, it could be biologically that they’re less inclined to or perhaps their development influenced it. The vast majority of humans do have at least some form of a very strong instinct to imitate others, so I don’t think that an instinct to imitate what specific sex-trait groups are doing is super outlandish. Especially considering we know that infants possess the ability to discern sex traits.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

That sounds like you are calling transgender people just imitators with stronger "imitation instinct" than other people have.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

All people use imitation heavily in their psychological development. That’s how we learn to speak and comport ourselves. My theory is just that people have an instinct to pay more attention to and thus imitate what certain sex trait groups are doing, and that this is the basis of GI.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

So why do basically all transwomen behave nothing like actual women?

Why do transgender people somehow skip gendered socialisation?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I agree that this is happening to a big extend, but disagree that this can make them of the opposite sex. Especially considering different cultures, and that they are copying something that is common in their culture. As was mentioned before, in India or Oceania there are men's dresses and it is counted as very manly. Previously some cultures had make-up allowed only for men, and banned for women. So someone who liked women traits there can be very "manly" here. And someone who watched and liked women traits here, will be very "manly" there as well. Traditions and culture are not inherent and can change, so "sex" or gender of such people will change as well, without their will, as it completely depends on mimicing cultural standarts and stereotypes of the time they were growing up.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It doesn’t make sense to have ever evolved by your own system.

Can you explain clearly?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What do you mean by it doesn’t make sense to have ever evolved by my own system? I don’t understand your qualm

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It’s nonsensical that some people imprint on entire groups of people for years whilst the rest of us don’t imprint like a wee baby chicken.

It doesn’t make sense for members of one sex group to randomly ‘imprint’ on a gaggle of women at any age, let alone suddenly at the age of six or seventeen.

It serves no purpose for some people to have evolved this imprinting thing and the rest of us to have not.

Really the entire premise just sounds bizarre.