all 21 comments

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So in this hypothetical we would not be associated with men and have all sex based protections applied to us, as well as having the same spaces and resources women have now?

The rights would be nice as would not being associated with men but realistically that would collapse quickly. If everyone women’s rooms became exclusively a trans women’s room there would be uproar about (whatever natal women are called) not having facilities and having all those unused restrooms. All those sports leagues etc would simply cease to exist for lack of numbers and funding (never generous to begin with but even less without the interest or natal women in their leagues).

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I wouldn’t be able to tell you how others would feel about you or what they’d associate you with. Idk what value the words woman or female would have, I guess they would just be replacements for transwomen and mtf. So I guess technically anyone who knew you called yourself a woman would know that meant you were trans. Since the word woman wouldn’t mean anything related to being what we now call female (we’d make another word for female that means what female originally meant). I guess it would mean everyone would probably l’y know you are male and trans, but you wouldn’t be called those words.

And the people who used to be called female would have their own bathrooms and spaces that TW and men wouldn’t have access to. So a bathroom for usedtobefemales, a bathroom for TW, and a bathroom for all other males. TM could use their preference imo, maybe not the TW bathroom if TW didn’t allow it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I mean I’ve always been pro third spaces so I don’t actually have a problem with that part. As to the titles of you just change the meanings to a different group and then people just still thought us as men, what would the difference be?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I didn’t say that people would still see you as men, I said I can’t tell you how others will see you. I’d personally still consider you a subcategory of males/men. But I wouldn’t have an issue with calling TW women and even female, and she/her if I were able to have language and terminology that was for my sex only, and I was able to have spaces meant solely for biologically female people.

The difference would be that you have your own spaces and you have nobody objecting to you referring to yourself as a woman, saying you identify as a woman, etc. And I think less people would care about using the pronouns you want because biologically female people would be allowed to be their own class and have terms for distinction.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

My point is if it’s just treated as trans woman is now the idea of some grand migration of terminology serves no purpose because it just moves the goalposts and ends up with nothing changing, just shuffled labels and no actual effect.

Other than third spaces how is this any different than now with “trans woman” and “woman” being replaced with “woman” and (insert new term here). Then woman just becomes the new trans woman, people still call us men and treat us like men. Nothing changes other than third spaces which is actually a plus. But all the rest seems like an exercise is change for show since in the end nothing really changes.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You wouldn’t be referred to as a man/male and you’d have safe spaces, while Women would have their own safe spaces and there’s be no issues or confusion over language. I’m sure some people would still think of you as men, but if that’s the case now I feel like this would still be better.

No matter what we do with language or what society is pressured into saying or not saying, there will always be separation between women and TW, at least with this scenario, TW have safe spaces and so do women, and a lot of the issues that we discuss here wouldn’t be issues. There’s no way around distinguishing females from males even if we were to call both women and TW women, at least this way both sides are somewhat better off.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean full protections and third spaces would definitely be an improvement but the shuffle of terminology just seems to be moot.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems moot to you. It doesn’t to women.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Not a lot would change. At least for the part of trans people that wants to be invisible in language. Let's assume there was group of ppl wearing red overalls and they [wearing purple ones] wanted to have a red one as well to blend in. If that group suddenly decided to dye their overalls green nothing would change except that they want a green overall now. Red would just become the new purple.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your comment reminded me that so many modern-day cults have worn the same often bright colors, like the Rajneeshees did:

https://www.racked.com/2018/4/16/17235638/wild-wild-country-rajneeshee-red-rajneespuram-maroon-burgundy-orange

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Have the borg taken over? Otherwise how are you getting all cis women to agree with you on this?

Also no that wouldn’t be an acceptable solution

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just imagine all women did agree, it’s a hypothetical. Why isn’t it acceptable?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Qt once asked us to imagine if all trans people could either have their brain transplanted into the body of the opposite sex (Idk how the body was supposed to be acquired...) and or build a body of the opposite sex specifically to transplant their brains, and we answered the question. Ridiculous as it may have been.

But the idea that women would eventually get sick of the larping and colonizing and try to separate ourselves from it as much as possible is a stretch...

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

IKR?

All sorts of bizarre hypothetical crap like, ~imagine that men can get a uterus stuck in them, are they a woman now?~

Women tho? Lots of women disagreeing with men/tra/TW? Unthinkable. Impossible. Nonsensical. Hurts the feelings so cannot be.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Didn’t ask if it was acceptable to you, we’d do it with or without your consent as we don’t need it...

Just asked how you’d feel

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Obligatory not QT, but trans. I’ve been trying figure this out.

I guess for trans people who are like me, it isn’t so much that we have a gender identity (although we did have strong feelings about it at one point) and are asking people to include us. It’s more like we are placed into one sex class because of how we look, act, sound, etc. even though we aren’t actually that sex. I’m just not sure how how changing the name for females would make it any less likely for people to see me that way. Despite all this gender stuff, most people still are just looking at what sex someone is.

Obviously, it would be different for different trans people. Third spaces would be nice though so if this helps with that it seems good. I feel like making space for trans people to be in the world without using single-sex spaces makes a lot of things easier. It’s really what TRAs should be pushing for imo.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

To me it’s not about how other people may see you (though as I’ve said before I think there are circumstances where some people deserve to know the truth), I care about my rights and language and not being forced to be classed with males just because that’s what some males want. I feel like a lot of trans people make it about us being upset because others see them as their target sex. I don’t think gc cares about that. I’m sure some do but I don’t think that’s a gc thing. We care about female rights and women being erased or silenced because “TWAW and we have to center TW and adjust language and understanding to accommodate them” (I just read this online today). I’m not hoping to force people to not transition or take away anything from trans people (I don’t consider female rights and spaces or legal documents being falsified a thing we could take away from transwomen- those were for females to begin with, so to me, we’d be taking it back not away)- I just want women and girls to be allowed to have equality. I feel like so many TW don’t realize that equality literally means that females have their own (from language to spaces and everything in between) and TW their own. Even on this post someone said my premise would be “unacceptable”- so basically admitting that women and girls wanting to be recognized as and by their sex and be distinguished from males would be unacceptable to them. Because it goes against their own desires and beliefs?

I will say I think many trans people overestimate how genuinely they are perceived as the sex they want to appear as (none of this is directed at you to clarify, just in general), and that makes it worse to me because we have so many male people thinking we don’t know they are male but we do and it’s obvious and makes many of us uncomfortable and if we feel uncomfortable (which imo is an involuntary reaction)- we’re bigoted. I fully accept that it’s possible that if women created new terms some passing TW would attempt to adopt those terms for themselves- but that’s why I said it would be a sex specific term. So TW could use the word to people in their personal lives if they chose to be misleading- but they couldn’t legally switch to it and it would be considered falsified to put it down on paperwork or identification.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful response!

I don’t think passing trans people are what GC is usually upset about (although some seem to want to say no one does, which I don’t really argue with because it’s sort of difficult to). I feel like sometimes GC frames all transwomen as being obviously male people who are trying to force themselves into female spaces, force people to refer to them as women, insist they are female, etc. That totally happens and it’s a big problem, but I just have a hard time putting myself into that because that hasn’t been my life. I don’t have any trans friends either. I have to talk about how my life looks to be able to respond to anything.

I don’t feel like you should be classed with males either. Woman and female should refer to you and not to me and I don’t want that to change or be expanded to include me.

I will say I think many trans people overestimate how genuinely they are perceived as the sex they want to appear as (none of this is directed at you to clarify, just in general), and that makes it worse to me because we have so many male people thinking we don’t know they are male but we do and it’s obvious and makes many of us uncomfortable and if we feel uncomfortable (which imo is an involuntary reaction)- we’re bigoted.

Agreed. I’m sorry that is happening. It super understandable how you would feel that way. I feel like I can relate in some ways, but I don’t want presume it’s the same because obviously we are different.

I fully accept that it’s possible that if women created new terms some passing TW would attempt to adopt those terms for themselves- but that’s why I said it would be a sex specific term.

I guess, what do you mean by adopt those terms? I feel like this is why I have a hard time understanding this hypothetical. Would it be like if anyone regarded a passing TW as female (so everyone in practice), would they have to stop everything to say that they weren’t? It seems really difficult to do. It’s sort of where I have difficulty with some of these. Like, maybe the only way we’d do boundaries correctly is if we tattooed “not a female” to our foreheads before moving through the world. I don’t mean to be dramatic, but sometimes I feel like the world GC wants would have to be like this.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

“I guess, what do you mean by adopt those terms? I feel like this is why I have a hard time understanding this hypothetical.”

What I mean is, TW wouldn’t be able to legally change their documents to state that they are women or female. I know that won’t stop some TW from calling themselves those words, but they wouldn’t be able to do it on legal documents and the rights of women would remain female specific (in this scenario “women” and “female” would be the new words, couldn’t think of any made up word lol). So when I said adopt I just meant there’d still be some TW who try to apply the new words to themselves in their private lives, but women’s rights, spaces, and terminology would be sex specific (again “women” meaning the new term we made and “female” meaning biologically female only)

“Would it be like if anyone regarded a passing TW as female (so everyone in practice), would they have to stop everything to say that they weren’t?”

No.

“It seems really difficult to do.”

I disagree. I think it’s uncomfortable for TW to do because they don’t want to, but I don’t get why in theory it would be that difficult to clarify that you’re trans. I understand there are reasons for not wanting to, but I don’t think the idea of clarifying in and of itself is that difficult, when necessary.

“It’s sort of where I have difficulty with some of these. Like, maybe the only way we’d do boundaries correctly is if we tattooed “not a female” to our foreheads before moving through the world. I don’t mean to be dramatic, but sometimes I feel like the world GC wants would have to be like this.”

I don’t think TW have to stamp their foreheads with proclamations. But I do think enough people understand what the word “trans” means that if the need to clarify arises it would be possible to be clear and honest. Trans people don’t want to out themselves, I get it. But I when it comes to certain things- like a female specific job/opportunity, sports, dating, stuff like that- transparency should exist. That doesn’t mean every time someone approaches you you have to inform them that you’re trans, it means when it matters, you should be honest imo.

As far as the boundaries thing- I think it’s kind of up to trans people to respect other people’s boundaries. That’s truly the only way to have boundaries. I feel like you personally come across as someone who does respect women and our boundaries for the most part, I just mean that to me, trans people are the ones who need to be aware of potential boundaries and navigate them. I know that’s shitty to say, but it’s like the stealthing conversations that always got shut down- trans people should respect the sexual boundaries of potential partners. Or the bathroom/sex based spaces thing- gc gets attacked for wanting female spaces to remain female spaces- but the whole point of female spaces is to be specifically for females in the first place so it’s really not wrong for females to object to that being taken away, that’s a boundary that got crossed and we shouldn’t be vilified for objecting.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry I’ve been so slow to respond. Thank you for explaining!

What I mean is, TW wouldn’t be able to legally change their documents to state that they are women or female. I know that won’t stop some TW from calling themselves those words, but they wouldn’t be able to do it on legal documents and the rights of women would remain female specific (in this scenario “women” and “female” would be the new words, couldn’t think of any made up word lol).

All the words I thought of sounded silly lol. The legal sex change thing is such a sticky issue. I wish we could just go to a system where it wasn’t visible except in special circumstances where it was needed or something. It makes perfect sense to me why GC doesn’t want it to be possible. I can’t condemn it without being a horrible hypocrite though because I did it and it helped me (even though the barriers were more serious then, bottom surgery, etc.).

I disagree. I think it’s uncomfortable for TW to do because they don’t want to, but I don’t get why in theory it would be that difficult to clarify that you’re trans. I understand there are reasons for not wanting to, but I don’t think the idea of clarifying in and of itself is that difficult, when necessary.

I don’t think it’s uncomfortable just because of not wanting to do it (even though you are right that a lot of us don’t want to). It can also be emotionally difficult. Speaking for myself, it can bring up uncomfortable feelings because things were difficult for me as a child. It’s also hard if you aren’t naturally assertive because there isn’t a natural time to bring it up and people don’t expect it. It can be intimating for that reason too. It’s still something we have to do though.

But I when it comes to certain things- like a female specific job/opportunity, sports, dating, stuff like that- transparency should exist. That doesn’t mean every time someone approaches you you have to inform them that you’re trans, it means when it matters, you should be honest imo.

I agree with you for the most part of when it’s important to share. We might disagree about friends, but I think we agree everywhere else. You said in a previous conversation you would feel like your boundaries were violated if you were friends with someone you saw as a woman and later found out they were trans.

I just mean that to me, trans people are the ones who need to be aware of potential boundaries and navigate them.

I agree. I’m just hoping that there is a way we can do that a still be able to live good lives. Sometimes, I worry that we can make an effort, but we may overlook something and won’t be doing it well enough if we are someone who passes. I guess I feel like the subtext from GC sometimes is that it would be better if passing trans people weren’t a thing.

Or the bathroom/sex based spaces thing- gc gets attacked for wanting female spaces to remain female spaces- but the whole point of female spaces is to be specifically for females in the first place so it’s really not wrong for females to object to that being taken away, that’s a boundary that got crossed and we shouldn’t be vilified for objecting.

I’m sorry GC is vilified for standing up for females rights and spaces. I don’t want to do that and want to support you as best I can. I feel like as more people become aware of things that are happening there may be more questioning of the way “trans rights” are treated right now. At my company, for instance, women tend to be the most supportive of trans inclusion and having our company do things like stating our pronouns. I feel like they don’t recognize the potential harm for women of just accepting all this though.