all 38 comments

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Where is your evidence that trans people don't have the brain of their opposite sex in them?

Where is your evidence that persons with male bodies and XY chromosomes in every cell have brains that are female with XX chromosomes? In utero, brains don't develop separately from the rest of human bodies.

If gender identity is not a real thing, why do people who think they are not the sex they were assigned at birth and were born in the wrong sex and body exist? What's going on in their brains that makes them think they are in the right or wrong sex and body?

Gender identity obviously seems real to people who claim they have one, but it's not in any way observable or evident to others, nor is it verifiable or measurable by any objective means.

Gender identity is like souls; the claim that some people have them is matter of emotion-based faith, not of empirical fact.

As to what's going on in these people's brains that makes them have these particular delusions, sexual fantasies and obsessions, it's not clear. Also, not the job of GC to "explain." Coz we're not the ones making these fatuous claims.

Trans, and nonbinary people use male and female to refer to gender identity, not sex. Why should "male" and "female" not be defined to mean one's gender identity aside from one's sex?

Bully for them. But niche special interest groups don't have the right to redefine by fiat and diktat commonly-understood words used by the entire human race.

Female and male are biologically-defined terms that refer to the two distinct types of plants and animals in sexually reproducing species - one of which has evolved to develop the potential capacity to produce small gametes, sperm, at some point in time; the other of which has evolved to develop the potential capacity to produce large gametes, eggs or ova, at some point in time.

Most humans, and all of the millions of other sexually-reproducing plant and animal species, do not have "gender identities." What's more, humans and other animals over time have evolved to be very adept at distinguishing the sex of plants and animals of other species as well as sex within their own species.

Dogs can tell the difference between men and women, as can infant humans. Many crops (apples, almonds, broccoli, etc) depend on pollination by bees - basically assisted fertilization; in order for this to happen, bees have to know the difference between the male and female fruits and vegetables involved. Asking animals and people to use male and female to refer to "gender identity" rather than sex means going against the entire history of evolution and expecting the human and animal kingdom to deny what their senses tell them.

Are there any disadvantages that come with male and female being used to refer to other things besides sex?

Yes. Agriculture would completely collapse if neither humans nor other species could identify the sex of plants and animals - and had to rely instead on plants and animals somehow revealing their inner "gender identities." Pollination of plants and the mating and reproduction of agricultural animals would become much more "iffy" and eventually would stop.

Imagine if farmers couldn't distinguish between bulls and cows based on their clear biological differences, but instead had to suss out the animals' gender identities. Consumers would end up with bull semen in their coffee, on their cereal and fed to their children.

[–]PassionateIntensity 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Are there any disadvantages that come with male and female being used to refer to other things besides sex?

Yes. Agriculture would completely collapse if neither humans nor other species could identify the sex of plants and animals - and had to rely instead on plants and animals somehow revealing their inner "gender identities." Pollination of plants and the mating and reproduction of agricultural animals would become much more "iffy" and eventually would stop.

Imagine if farmers couldn't distinguish between bulls and cows based on their clear biological differences, but instead had to suss out the animals' gender identities. Consumers would end up with bull semen in their coffee, on their cereal and fed to their children.

😂 Taken literally or seriously it leads to the extinction of all life on earth -- but hey, no biggie.

[–]MissDimples[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Taken literally or seriously it leads to the extinction of all life on earth -- but hey, no biggie.

Well, I'm all for extinction of all "life" so it's not a biggie really. (no, I'm not joking. Saying this because most times people are like "are you joking" and I'm expecting that to pop up)

[–]MissDimples[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Where is your evidence that persons with male bodies and XY chromosomes in every cell have brains that are female with XX chromosomes? In utero, brains don't develop separately from the rest of human bodies.

I have a question. Someone here said:

Additionally, homosexual males have female typical brains and homosexual females have male typical brains:

Analysis of Human Brain Structure Reveals that the Brain “Types” Typical of Males Are Also Typical of Females, and Vice Versa: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6204758/

There are other articles that say gay males have female brains and gay females have male brains: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/study-says-brains-of-gay/

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2008/06/20/brains-of-gay-people-resemble-those-of-straight-people-of-opposite-sex/

They all mean gay males have female brains and gay females have male brains, gay males are just females or female brains in male bodies and gay females are just males or male brains in female bodies so, if that's the case then a female can have a male brain and a male can have a female brain and somehow the brains developed separately from the rest of the body? ...

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have no wish to get into your argument with futureghost. There are more commonalities than differences in the brains of males and females. I don't buy the idea that all members of one sex have brains that are so distinctly, markedly different from the brains of the opposite sex that we can say females have one type of brain, and males all have another type of brain altogether.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x

Anyone who claims that

somehow the brains developed separately from the rest of the body

Has no idea how embryonic/fetal development occurs. You really think that in utero the brain and the rest of body develop separately and the brain only gets put inside the head and connected to the rest of of the body sometime before birth?

If that's the case, then all the billions of scans done of human and other animal fetuses whilst still in the womb should clearly show exactly where it is in the uterus that the fetal brain is situated when it's developing separately from the rest of the body. Tons of human fetal sonograms are available online - just do a google image search. Please do post some of those images showing us exactly where it is that the human brain is located when it's developing separately from the rest of the body.

BTW, MRI imaging of fetal brains themselves has been done successfully as early as 20 weeks. The brains of fetuses have all been shown to be inside the skulls already. They weren't found floating around somewhere else in the mothers' uteri separate from the rest of the fetuses' developing bodies.

Over the course of history, many women have miscarried or had stillbirths prior to term, and with advanced medical care nowadays many extremely premature infants are born and remain alive at ever-earlier ages. But funny thing is, no medical authority has ever reported that in any these cases it's been customary for the brains to be separate from the rest of the bodies. Or that this has ever happened at all.

Believing that brains develop separately from the rest of our bodies is as absurd as believing Noel Fielding was speaking scientifically when he depicted Bryan Ferry's head a kite detached from his body, and Brian Eno's as an orange frisbee that also served as a Greek dipping platter.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Topic 1: How come you believe gender identity is not a real thing?

I have honestly never- not once, not even almost once, heard or read a trans person articulate what gender identity means to them in a way that makes any sense. I think gender identity is a term coined to take away the relationship to mental health conditions and try to normalize being trans. I actually have a lot more to say but this is already gonna be long so I’ll spare you.

If a transwoman has a gender identity, when they describe it, any woman should be able to relate. Actually- any human being who “identifies as a woman” should be able to relate. I can’t relate, I always end up feeling insulted.

“If gender identity is not a real thing, why do people who think they are not the sex they were assigned at birth and were born in the wrong sex and body exist?”

Dysphoria. Trauma. Mental health issues. How can someone be born in the wrong body? Literally- how could this happen?

“what’s going on in their brains that makes them think they are in the right or wrong sex and body?”

I’d love to know the answer. But as i said, I’ve never been provided with an answer that isn’t sexist. It’s not on gc to explain why someone is born in “the wrong body”. It’s on the people claiming this. The fact that they can’t explain this without resorting to sexism and stereotypes (and often a healthy dose of internalized homophobia /a) is a huge red flag.

A better question imo would be: how can you expect anyone to take trans people seriously when they claim to understand the opposite sex/gender well enough to “identify” into it, well before anyone perceived them as that sex and treated them as such?

How can you tell me you know what it is to be a woman when you’ve always existed in the body of a male? Women don’t get treated and talked about the way we do by transwomen and other males because of how we see ourselves internally. Women are not oppressed because of our sense of selves. Women did not have to fight for equality on the basis of our gender identity. Female bodies don’t function the way they do (typically) because of gender. And when female bodies function atypically, there’s usually a reason behind it that is related to our sex...

As far as debunking- who gives a fuck what type of brain anyone has? Sex is not mental. Even if we accepted the brain sex stuff- they don’t have female bodies. Women and girls are female because of our bodies and how we develop and function. A lady brained dude is never going to have a female body. And if TW have brains similar to females, it kind of means nothing because almost all females would presumably have similar brains and yet women don’t all behave the same way.

Also- look at the dates of your links. Then Google “brain sex trans debunked”. And look at how all of the articles stating that brain sex has been debunked were written after your linked articles.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Topic 2: Usage of the words male and female to mean things aside from one's sex.

“Trans, and nonbinary people use male and female to refer to gender identity, not sex.”

They shouldn’t. As it makes no sense. Your gender identity is female because: pink? Skirt twirls? Heels? Barbie dolls? It’s male because: sports? Cars? Beers? It’s neither or both because: idk why honestly usually it seems to be wanting to be special and different and fit into a group.

“Why should "male" and "female" not be defined to mean one's gender identity aside from one's sex?”

  1. Because male and female already have meanings

  2. Because gender identity is always always always easily reduced to stereotypes and limited understanding of the opposite sex/gender

  3. Because the reasons that people who claim to have a gender identity say they have it never have anything to do with being male or female.

    “Are there any disadvantages that come with male and female being used to refer to other things besides sex?”

The entire concept of TWAW/TMAM and all the bullshit that came along with it for starters.

The erasure of females. The centering of misogynistic males in “feminism”. Compelled speech. Personal pronouns. Unchecked narcissism. Regressive mentality being forced en masse. I could keep going but I want to answer topic 3

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Topic 3: Thoughts on xenogenders and neopronouns?

I ignore anything after the T. Gender is a social concept and I’m sorry but society has no use for non-binary or ze/zer bs

“Are they real things?”

They’re real people who are either male or female despite whatever gender they claim that has to be announced and then likely explained to most people.

“I guess this goes back to topic 1, where I asked why you think gender identity is not a real thing.”

I can’t take a female claiming to understand being a male or a male claiming to understand being a female seriously. I’m damn sure not gonna buy into the idea that you identify as a non binary asexual pan cat girl who goes by ze/zer/ or she/her seriously lol. I know that’s an extreme example but my point is just that your individual personality is not it’s own gender and this gender identity alphabet soup nonsense is getting ridiculous. All these genders are either just personalities and interests or not fitting the stereotype of your own sex.

“The has been a push for the ideas of xenogenders and neopronouns to be accepted:”

Of course because everyone and everything is valid and brave (and stunning! Unless you prefer handsome!). except reality.

Link 1: debunks nothing. Just whining about gender feels and being inclusive and accepting. To be Frank most people with personal pronouns or neopronouns are exhausting. Not because of the pronoun preference, because of the narcissism and self victimizing that almost always goes along with it.

Link 2: that’s not really a neopronoun, seems more like language changed and the word “heo” evolved to “her”. Even if I don’t have that quite right, it’s still a word meant to describe a female person. It looks like the word just changed over time but was always meant to refer to the same type of person. That’s not a neopronoun. It’s a sex based pronoun.

“They showed us neopronouns are not dumb tumblr inventions, and have existed way before tumblr existed:”

I don’t think theyre dumb because I assume tumblr invented them lol.

“This site says "nonbinary pronouns are way older than you think": “

Eh. The title says that but the article just kind of explains the concept of the word “they” and how it’s used. The thing is, non-binary people made “they” gendered by using it to refer to themselves.

“This site educates people on what neopronouns are”

Contradicts itself through out. How is anything gender neutral if you choose your pronouns based on your gender identity???

“This other site educates people on what xenogenders are”

Kinda sounds like they’re saying xenogenders are basically a small portion of autistic people?

That’s an awful explanation.

“Apart from the cards you can click on to know about various types of xenogenders are, there is emogender, trendergender, bungender, robogender, beegender, etc:”

Lol

“what's a xenogender?”

They don’t really explain aside from saying they’re neurodivergent. I haven’t done the research to confirm, but I doubt most people with autism or adhd are xenogender....

“due to this, they also interpret social constructs such as gender differently.”

If only there were people trained to help teach and assist neurodivergent people. If there were, maybe those trained people could help them understand better. It’s odd how neurodivergent people can be taught so much and are often very intelligent, yet nobody is qualified to teach them something like this. /s

This seems kind of like neurodivergent people are being used... I can’t quite articulate why I’m getting this feeling but it’s just... off.

“a neurodivergent person may struggle trying to find a term that fits for their gender so they take something of comfort and make a gender identitiy tied to it! hence a xenogender!”

So this confirms what I suspected. Gender identity is whatever anyone (neurodivergent or not) decides it is. Which means it’s entirely individual. Which means it’s a combination of personality, interests, and possibly mental health concerns/issues of some sort.

Like- unless all trans people are neurodivergent, why is this being talked about? Unless they’re saying being trans is in itself neurodivergent and I just missed that.

“most xenogenders are based on objects such as mindsets, plants, animals and other things people may find comfort in!”

That’s not really how gender works tho

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Am autistic and can confirm it’s absolutely got nothing to do with my sex other than a reluctance in the psych field to diagnose me because I was female.

Definitely no urge to invent a new gender just because I’m not great at certain things deemed ~for females~

Frankly it’s a little insulting for op to state that being on the spectrum means a woman is likely to require being called ze or xir or your majesty or something stupid like that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I didn’t know how to word it but I think it’s just another example of tras using another group of people to try to legitimize trans people or invoke sympathy and a sense of obligation to validate.

They obviously do it with women, but they do it with intersex conditions, black people, Holocaust victims, homosexuals, and now people on the spectrum. They know the comparisons will make people think twice about rejecting what they’re saying. Either because most people don’t fully understand the comparison or because when they do somewhat understand, they’re scared of being comparable to racists or homophobes.

I’ve even seen some say that pointing out that male bodies don’t function the same as female bodies or saying you’d never sleep with a “woman” who has a penis is straight up ableism.

I can’t tell if it’s an intentional tactic to pressure people into validating them or if it’s an attempt to diminish the fact that being trans is a lot different from any other marginalized group (like trying to normalize being trans by mixing it in with race and medical conditions etc). The only problem is trans people are the only invasive and sexist marginalized group.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are so right.

I remember seeing a lot of stuff from tra about how black women are supposedly less feminine somehow than white and Asian women so that somehow meant men were also women.

I’d hazard a guess most aren’t doing it to be intentionally offensive or manipulative, and are grasping at straws to keep the dream legitimised. Too invested in the identity to think about who you might be hurting. Hell I’d say some of these men are running and clutching at straws so hard is because this is the first time they have ever really wanted something (womanhood however they imagine it) and don’t get it.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Sex & gender are two different things, remember?

First things first, pro-gender/anti-sex rhetoric monopolises the discourse, so we've got to clear up the discrepancies between terms & definitions that this debate invariably runs into.

Gender: masculinity, femininity

Sex: male, female

Sometimes 'gender' refers to the sexes, like 'gender reveal party' or 'gender inequality'.

Sex is binary, gender is a spectrum

Female & feminine are not the same thing

Sex & preferred sex are different in trans people

Socialised gender & felt gender are in conflict in transgender people

Trans people aren’t intersex, they are at best “intergender”, their sex is binary. Their gender is also binary for the most part (but not in an affirming way). Their gendered behavioural trends are consistent with their sex (one of my recent posts demonstrated this with links to the relevant evidence).

Using the term "assigned at birth" to describe trans people is therefore appropriation of intersex terminology. The average trans person's sex is as unambiguous as the average "cis" person's is.

The trans movement in general is set on appropriation of gender identity. Sex abolitionists insist that transgender males be referred to as women, their experiences: womanhood, their marginalisation: "transmisogyny". It even hijacked the black lives matter protests into "trans-womxyn are women" chants. It engages in parasitic activism on the regular. Just look at the state of the LGBTQ+ movement, or the progressive movement.

London taxi drivers have London taxi driver brains AFTER gaining 'the knowledge'. Get back to me once they've scanned the brains of people who haven't discovered they are trans & then used the info to accurately predicted their transition.

Gay men's brains have similarities to straight women's brains. Is this evidence that gay men are straight women? If not, why is the same information being touted as evidence that transgender males are women? Also what about the rest of the brain? Why cherry pick the bit you like? Take all the evidence together. If you are looking at a brain that has everything in common with a male brain with a tiny exception, then how does that make the person a binary woman?

Binary transgenderism is covered within academia, but there is nothing official on the other genders. They are the product of a teen sub-culture appropriating the trans identity. Think back to the 70s when everyone was obsessed with star signs, or in the early 2000s when girls were emos. On the one hand it helps to normalise transgender identities, but it also undermines them, by being illegitimate. This mostly affects girls, so even if they all detransitioned, it wouldn't cause a major upset in the trans lobby's plans, because teen girls are a demographic that no one cares about (as the general indifference to the demographic's mounting numbers over the decades of eating disorders, suicide attempts & other forms of self-harm have demonstrated).

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To clarify few things:

Intersex people sex is binary as well. Word intersex sounds really misleading.

"Assigned at birth" was a medical malpractice, that was leading to IGM and a lot of harm to intersex people. It is not practiced anymore.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for the clarification. I knew it already, but I guess my saying: "Trans people aren’t intersex, their sex is binary" implied something I didn't mean.

[–]MissDimples[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Gay men's brains have similarities to straight women's brains. Is this evidence that gay men are straight women?

I heard about this before, there are many trans people on twitter, discord and other places that told me this means gay men are straight women because their brains are similar in structure to brains of straight women. They think "gay men are attracted to men because gay men are psychologically straight women, they are not real men, gay men are just women in men's bodies" .... Thoughts? Are they right or wrong?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

many trans people on twitter, discord and other places that told me this means gay men are straight women

I have a hard time believing that this is true. As much as the trans movement likes to indulge in homosexual-erasure/appropriation, what you describe seems counterintuitive in its extremity. It would mean a belief that every homosexual is trans, which I doubt is a widely held enough belief to bother with

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As much as the trans movement likes to indulge in homosexual-erasure/appropriation, what you describe seems counterintuitive in its extremity. It would mean a belief that every homosexual is trans, which I doubt is a widely held enough belief to bother with

Trans cracktivists don't say every homosexual male is trans, just that a lot of them are. And it's a widely held enough belief that I think it does warrant attention. A very similar belief is even more commonplace amongst young lesbians today, which is why lesbians are becoming rarer than hens' teeth.

Re gay men, prominent UK author Juno Dawson has publicly said

there are a lot of gay men out there who are gay men as a consolation prize because they couldn’t be women.

Dawson’s comments were defended by fellow trans writer and activist Shon Faye, who wrote, ‘It’s not homophobic to say some gay men are actually trans – I should know, I was one of them.’

According to these guys, being gay is merely a half-way station for many TIMs. Not all gay guys are really trans, they say, just a lot of them.

https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/juno-dawson-gay-men-consolation-prize/

[–]Airbus320 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You are very right, snow ass man

[–]Airbus320 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Who cares

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Femaleness has nothing to do with feminineness inherently. It is something enforced on the majority of female people.

Male people do not receive this socialisation, and the claim that it is inherent reinforces the idea that female=pink!sparkles!maths hard:( Males who naturally gravitate towards things deemed feminine are feminine men. Not women.

Personally, I don’t identify as female or as a woman. I identify as a craftswoman and artisan. I identify as an aunt and housewife and sister. My femaleness is merely a fact, like my blonde hair or loose ligaments. It’s unhealthy to have an identity largely or wholly rooted in ones propensity to obey or disobey gender norms enforced on their respective sex.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Topic 1 - is gender identity "real" - If it's just an internal feeling, then basically, I don't care. It makes no difference to me. Why should I need to know someone's gender identity? Why does it make a difference in the world? If you're a close friend of mine, you can end up telling me about your inner feelings, but I don't see why a new acquaintance needs a label they give to everyone that automatically informs them of some aspect of inner feelings. I don't even understand what it is supposed to tell me about your inner feelings if you tell me you "identify as a woman". I am a woman and I don't know what you think you're identifying as... Maybe you're identifying as your fantasy of a woman. It's not something I need to know about everyone, and more important your feelings don't make it universally true. It's like telling me your favorite color. The problem is when people start to think it's very important that everyone knows, and that feeling it makes it factually accurate ("Trans women are women").

Your sex makes a difference in the physical world because you have a physical body which is male or female. It means that you will be sexually attractive to some people and not to others, that you will be able to mate with some people and not with others, that you will have some medical issues, some political issues, some things which should be statistically noted due to having one of two types of bodies. And you will be more dangerous or more vulnerable, as a rule. Your inner sense of self cannot be so easily divided into two types (even people who believe in a "gender identity" usually define it as a rather indefinite puddle of options, ie, having a personality) and it doesn't provide useful information.

Topic 2: why use pronouns for sex instead of gender? That's what they've always been for. Why change them? What advantage is it to know some vague notion someone has about their personality instead of knowing a material fact? The categories of sex are meaningful. If the categories of gender are also meaningful, then create new categories, new words and new groupings to allow for those to flourish. But don't erase the categories of sex in the process. Some things can be divided by sex, and other things can be divided by gender - why not? is it so terrible to allow for two different ways of thinking? But don't try to overtake the meanings of SEX and pretend it now refers to inner feelings.

Topic 3: neopronouns - fine, but don't require people to speak according to language that isn't their preference. You can suggest all the words you like as options but accusing people of being bigoted for not describing a man as a woman is not fair.

[–]SilverSlippers 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really GC.

Using 'male' and 'female' to define gender identity instead of sex is confusing and is part of what is kinda drawing me to the GC side of things. I don't give a fuck what people want to identify as. Just recognize that you can't really change your biology. Keep terminology for gender identity and biological sex separate.

Just because someone identifies as something doesn't make it true. There are people who identify as a different race. There are people who identify as animals. Doesn't mean its valid. That being said, gender dysphoria is real and causes distress. For some people, transition and living as the opposite sex provides relief. For others, it doesn't help. I don't like the current trend of rejecting all non-transition therapies as 'conversion therapy'. I think that the term transgender should be exclusive for people with severe dysphoria for whom transition has been determined to be the best treatment for them to live a happy life.

Edit: Also, please stop using "assigned sex" to refer to people who are born with typical genitalia. Sex is observed at birth (or before really) in 99% of the population. The term "assigned sex" is/was used for people who are born with their sex not obvious, i.e. intersex conditions.

[–]kwallio 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The word xenogender is kind of making my lol, xeno means foreign or alien and makes me think of people id-ing as alien gender or alien kin or something. The trans brigade really needs to come up with some better terms, appropriating terms like cis and xeno apart from their scientific meanings is super confusing (as a scientist).

[–]cupidscupidity 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Topic 2: The real problem is, upon shifting "male" and "female" to refer to gender identity, are we going to entirely remove words that refer to sex? I think there are disadvantages to that: particularly when it comes to health and medicine, without any distinction between the sexes it could lead to a lot of problems or confusion (e.g. medicine dosage, how diseases affect different sexes differently, sexual health). There's also the gender critical view of natal females experiencing sex-based oppression, and removal of terms to describe sex would make it harder to approach that meaningfully.

I'm a little different from gender critical views here in that I wouldn't necessarily mind a compromise--"male" and "female" can be used for gender identity, as long as we can find new words for sex. Let's just say they're "flim" and "flam", for example. A flim produces sperm and a flam produces eggs, flims and flams have distinct primary and secondary sex characteristics, a flim can't become a flam and a flam can't become a flim, etc.

However, I figure some trans rights activists will still find fault in this kind of compromise, because from what I can tell, the goal isn't really to just free "male" and "female" from sex. Their goal appears to be to make sure that "trans women and cis men" and "trans men and cis women" are never categorized under those categories, and freeing "male" and "female" from sex is simply one step in that process. So categorizing people as immutable "flims" or "flams" really defeats the purpose of their ideology, as I see it.

But it remains that "trans women and cis men" do form a real, observable category, as do "trans men and cis women"--so it only makes sense that the proper words exist to describe them.

(Ironically, the whole use of "menstruators" and other gender-neutral language should be transphobic for the above reasons, and yet it's the trans rights activists that are trying to push such language. I'm curious as to what people here think about this.)

[–]SilverSlippers 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Several years ago "man" and "woman" referred to gender identify while "male" and "female" referred to biological sex. Had it stayed there, I would have had no problem. I don't like the whole constantly moving goal posts part of current 'activism'; its confusing at best and off-putting at worst.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Several years ago "man" and "woman" referred to gender identify

Really? In what countries? And in what years specifically?

[–]SilverSlippers 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

In the USA; granted I was hanging around a super liberal/woke crowd on/around a college campus at the time and have since kind of distanced myself from them. I do think that separate words for gender identity and biological sex are something that we should have. Or perhaps have words for trans people that distinguishes them as trans, i.e. just transwoman or transman. I really don't like how, at least around the really woke people, the terminology for stuff that is considered PC vs. "problematic" keeps changing. Part of why started trying to distance myself from that group, among many other issues that started cropping up.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think that amongst the population of the USA as a whole - or in the rest of the Anglophone world - "man" and "woman" ever referred to "gender identity," whatever years we're speaking of.

Most people don't have a gender identity, nor do most of us understand what it's supposed to mean. "Gender identity" always boils down to a preference for the superficial sex stereotypes associated with the opposite sex, and a rejection of the one's associated with one's own sex. Or it could mean rejecting both sets of stereotypes whilst having your own personal clothing/grooming style and your own distinct personality encompassing a wide range of traits and interests - which today is called "non-binary" but in the past just meant you were pretty much like everyone else.

If people who ID as trans want to come up with new names for themselves, I think that's fine. But I'm no longer gonna even go along with the pretense of calling them transmen and transwomen, coz those terms are lies. Man and woman mean adult human male and female. That's it. The trans community should come up with completely new words for themselves. Coz woman and man are already taken.

[–]SilverSlippers 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah that's kinda what I've been noticing being outside of the woke campus bubble. I mean they think that everyone has a gender identity. I kinda started leaving after (1) I graduated and got a real job; and (2) Started noticing someone of the really illogical stuff they were doing - like advocating for all sports to effectively be co-ed; and (3) how vicious they got after the whole JKR thing - I've been a fan of hers for a long time and when the whole thing came out I read her article and it was like not offensive or rude or violent at all and they were all acting like it was now unacceptable to continue to read/watch the Harry Potter series.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad to hear you're out of that bubble. And that getting a real job and living in the real world still changes - and broadens - one's perspective. Campuses today are closer to Disneyland than to the "real world."

[–]grixitperson 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Man" and "woman" also refer to sex, not identity.

[–]strictly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How come you believe gender identity is not a real thing?

I think it's a real thing for those who say they have one (their mind, their experience), for the rest of us, no we don't have gender identities.

Do you think it's false that trans people have the brain of their opposite sex?

Yes.

Where is your evidence that trans people don't have the brain of their opposite sex in them?

As this study puts it "The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized". Badly designed studies may show brain similarities between trans people and the opposite sex when they don't correct for sexual orientation. When it is corrected for then "data show that whereas homosexuality is linked to cerebral sex dimorphism, gender dysphoria primarily involves cerebral networks mediating self–body perception".

Are there any disadvantages that come with male and female being used to refer to other things besides sex?

It leads to people being gendered against their will just for being born a certain sex. If you want a word for gender indentity create a new word for it that isn't an existing word for sex so people are not associated with a gender identity just for being female or male.

Thoughts on xenogenders and neopronouns? Are they real things?

I wouldn't have heard of neopronouns if they weren't a real thing. People can invent identities that are real to them, and I don't mind what people do in their heards but I'm not going participate in their role-playing.