all 11 comments

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So you post a string of links to numerous reddit threads, then you say

Thoughts?

If you disagree with them, can you tell me why you do and where you disagree?

Sorry mate, this is not how debating works. You've got to put in some effort to summarize the position of your opponent, then state and argue your own position - not just lazily post a bunch of links to what somebody else says on various reddit threads and ask for other people here to tell you why and where they disagree.

If you want people to engage with you, roll up your sleeves and do some thinking and explaining of your own. Set out the views you are responding to in clear, succinct way, and state your own thoughts on them first instead of asking others to do all the work without you putting your own views on the line.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 14 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Commenting to draw attention to MarkTwainiac's, Shania Twainiac's unjustly less famous sibling, comment.

This post is BS and asking everyone to do way too much work for nothing.

OP: Make your own point or argument or ask your own question, in words not links.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the compliment, Flippy!

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think they have zero idea what's happening to young girls these days.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

1) how many people detransition back to their assigned-at-birth gender? I'm not talking about legally changing a name back or even having surgery regrets, because neither indicate necessarily that a person isn't trans. Furthermore, why do those people detransition, and how would their doing so invalidate the transgender identities of others? People who think they're cis but later think otherwise don't invalidate the experiences of cisgender people, do they?

I would start by asking what it is that proves that someone is indeed trans. Because it seems like there is no actual answer here.

2) speaking as someone who regularly hangs out with trans people, they are not pressured to be trans— if anything, they are heavily pressured to be cis, particularly by family. What social pressures are you seeing that are supposedly more dominant than some of these?

Depends on the circles they are in and how this poster defines the word "pressure". Because I am pretty sure that what they are considering pressure is people deciding to not play along with this stuff.

In general, while there are people who try to stop anyone from being trans, there are definitely people who are on a mission to convince others that they are, and this is mostly based on being different levels of non-conforming or LGB.

3) why are trans people "confused" about their gender whereas cis people are not? Unless you're trying to go the metaphysical skepticism route where you're denying that trans people really exist, then what is the basis for that claim?

Gender is a set of stereotypes and sex-based roles that are thrown at us (and often forced on us) since the day we are born. I don' t think that trans people are confused about their gender per se, I think lots of trans people crave the gender of the other sex for whatever reason (misogyny, fetish, attention, validation, victimhood complex, trauma, homophobia, and, in certain cases, mental illness), some times obsessively so.

Trans people, as in people who want to identify as the other sex/gender, exist. What they use as an excuse for that, gender identity, however, doesn' t, or at least it doesn' t in the way they claim. They describe it (when they even manage to put two words together to describe it) as an innate essence that drives you towards the roles and stereotypes assigned to a specific sex. Some times, but it' s getting increasingly more uncommon/considered bigoted, they describe it as hating the sexed characteristics of your body because you want the ones of the other sex' s body. In the former case, that' s not gender identity, it' s your personality, you prefer certain things, but since you are taught that they aren' t for you because they are for the other sex, you decide to jump on that train; in the latter case, it' s still not gender identity, it' s a form of pathological self-hatred and body issues.

4) what exactly do you think is being done to children in particular, and again unless you're going the metaphysical skepticism route, then what in that is unlike or even more common than the confusion and social pressures placed on trans children and even adults by others?

I have no clue what this question even means.

5) what is the reason why you're inferring that a trans couple with a trans child means that they have somehow influenced the child or otherwise swayed them to change their gender?

Children are 100% influenced when it comes to their "identity" as trans. So are adults, but children have less critical thinking and are prone to believe everything they are taught, not to mention they lack experience. Whether this comes from their family, friends, queer circles, or the media is another thing entirely, but in general, the same thing can be seen by a child and that child might think "Wow, so this is how it works!", while an adult might think "Wow, I might look into it!" or "Wow, this is complete bullshit because I know something else entirely is true!". For example, when I was a child I was convinced that greek gods truly existed in ancient Greece, because I read a book with their stories (the watered down version for children) and I thought that since climbing the Olympus was something possible, then there was no reason to keep writing stories about the gods if they had proven that they didn' t exist. This was me at 5: a year later I started being taught about how to analyze literary texts, and realized that it was bullshit. Now, imagine if I hadn' t understood the lesson and nobody had questioned my belief that Greek gods really exist: I would still believe in that decades later. I would have probably based a big chunck of my life and beliefs on that as well.

Similarly, if a child only knows two parents who constantly feed him/her gender idiocy, and see everyone around them seemingly agreeing and behaving accordingly, they will believe it' s something real. This also works for religious families: if a child is born in a really religious family, and they don' t have any way to see opposite positions, they will grow up thinking that their parents' s imaginary friend is real and that everything the sacred book they worship says is the truth. This can go several ways: the child can grow up without critical thinking and desire to learn what else there is outside of the dogma and will spend the resto of their life promoting the same stuff their parents did, or the child can start resenting the dogmatic preachings and rebel completely, or, they can grow up around people with different opinions and make their own mind on the matter. But of course everything you experience when you are a child plays an important part in your future development, one way or another.

In this specific case, if two trans parents have a child who comes out as trans, it' s either because they are intentionally brainwashing him/her or because they are teaching the kid the bullshit they promote and the kid draws the only possible conclusion from that, which is that if you are more interested in stuff that is stereotypically associated to the other sex, then you must be the other sex. Which is why lots of girls who prefer playing with trains and climbing trees "identify" as boys, and lots of boys who prefer playing with make-up and Barbies "identify" as girls.

I can' t read more of that stuff, but I agree with other posters that this isn' t how you make a post in a debate sub. Not everyone is interested in reading multiple threads in other circles without some context, and not everyone is willing to spend time debating a position with a third party instead of the one who made it in the first place.

Make a summary and see if someone answers you.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Gender is a set of stereotypes and sex-based roles that are thrown at us (and often forced on us) since the day we are born. I don' t think that trans people are confused about their gender per se, I think lots of trans people crave the gender of the other sex for whatever reason (misogyny, fetish, attention, validation, victimhood complex, trauma, homophobia and, in certain cases, mental illness), some times obsessively so.

In this sub were already posted many links and topics about trans people acting, behaving and being in statistics the same way that their "original" gender was, not the gender they want to be. It starts with manners of speaking and ends with suicide and crime statistics. Transwomen have same or very close stats as men, and transmen same as women. And ratios are similar as well - transwomen overrepresented in media, politics and high positions, while transmen are underrepresented, suicide tries are mostly attempted by transmen, but transwomen attempts are more successful - just like women trying more and men succeeding more, entitlement leves goes there too, and so on. Everything is according to gender they were growing up as, that they were trained to live as, not as gender they are trying to be or that they are claiming to be.

Children are 100% influenced when it comes to their "identity" as trans. So are adults, but children have less critical thinking and are prone to believe everything they are taught, not to mention they lack experience. Whether this comes from their family, friends, queer circles, or the media is another thing entirely, but in general, the same thing can be seen by a child and that child might think "Wow, so this is how it works!", while an adult seeing the same might think "Wow, I might look into it!" or "Wow, this is complete bullshit because I know something else entirely is true!".

I am a kid that experienced such thing, because I was growing up in a homophobic society with homophobic laws, with ban on everything homosexual and huge censorship over everything with "Iron Curtain" in times before internet was a thing, in USSR.

So I only saw people around in heterosexual relationship, everyone was saying to me that a man can't love another man, and so on, so I was growing up until pretty late times thinking I am heterosexual as well, and was trying to abandon my thoughts about other men. I only realised I am homosexual because I was listening to "Voice of America" illegal radiostation with my grandfather. They described homosexuality and I understood that it is what I am, what I feel. If no such thing was there, or everything was around speaking that "only women can like men" - then I maybe would be jumping transgender train as well. Many of a bit older than me gays who are my friends are transsexuals nowadays, because in USSR it was one of treatments of homosexuality - put into mental asylum and then try to convince that we are women in men's body. So my luck that I was younger and was listening to "Voice of America", while my friends were fully surrounded by soviet propaganda only.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Mezzoic, this is off topic, but have you seen the 1995 US movie "Citizen X"? It's about the investigation of a large numbers of grisly sex murders, mostly of kids and young women, in Rostov in the waning years of the USSR. It's a gripping, somber police procedural that captures the mood of the crumbling Soviet ideology and infrastructure and the failing state, while also showing the extreme homophobia of the Communist Party officials and policy and the way certain party officials dug their heels in and asserted tired doctrine/propaganda to resist change - as others did the opposite. It's based on the true story of Andrei Chikatilo, aka the Red Ripper, who remains one of the most "prolific" serial killers in world history to this day - and who showed that serial killers are not just "a decadent Western phenomenon" as the CP apparatchiks initially insisted. All the old guard Soviet officials wanted to pin the murders on homosexuals and kept forcing the cops to go out and round up men known to be gay. Which is very sad. But the two principal men in charge of the investigation, and the rank and file cops, are good guys and behave honorably - and without homophobia. It's a really well-done movie. Not light fare, but very moving.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I haven't watched the movie, but I know this story very well, as I lived close to that place. Chikatilo was molesting children when he worked as a teacher, and raped teen sportswomen in school before he started his rape-killing streak. There can be hundreds of young victims who survived, and hundred who were murdered by him, out of 120 cases he was accused only 43 were proven to be his victims. You reminded me dark times, I or father were following my mother in the evenings, just in case, after Chikatilo was caught, as people realized such thing is possible, so everyone started to afraid such people.

Chikatilo case is also very good example how USSR were hiding criminals, as during that time and previously it was said that only capitalism can made maniacs, and in communistic society it is just impossible, so police was often closing eyes on maniacs, or caughting them and being very silent that they exist. Chikatilo was just way too big of a case to stay unknown.

I was victim of such gay sweepings, but it was after Chikatilo, right before USSR collapse, but they found nothing, just denunciation of neighbourghs that I am living with a man, so maybe we are doing something wrong, so I only spend half a year on unpaid work. If I would caught second time or they "found" evidence I had homosexual sex - then I could end up in prison or mental asylum with future "sex-reassignment" surgery.

And with blaming on homosexuals there were even more, - even two slurs that homosexual men are called are both coming from "pederast", one is "peedor" and other is more soft "pedik", both meaning exclusively homosexual men (nowadays also can mean just bad person), it is mostly because homosexual men were all blamed in molesting kids, so gay and pederast were almost synonyms. Homosexual women were believed to not exist at all, so unlike men, who could get into prison or get executed - lesbnians were almost always sent into mental asylums with heavy medicamental treatment (I've heard a lot of stories about them getting pregnant there or ending lives with suicide, but I don't know anyone in person to know if that was true or not). Nowaydas those slurs do not have "pederast" sub-meaning to them, and just anti-gay slurs.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Mezz, so sorry you went through that. The movie "Citizen X" clearly shows that in the USSR, persecution of homosexuals, particularly gay men, was not just sanctioned but actively encouraged by the government. It's not the main topic of the movie, but a theme that comes through loud and clear and which I found haunting.

I hope you are well and in a place where you are safe from such inhumane treatment.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was decently lucky, unlike some people I know, but thank you.

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

OP - What do you like to make a new, perhaps more targeted post with a couple primary points that you either rephrase or say clearly here, though feel free to include links that may elaborate the point but shouldn't be necessary to read to support the point being stated?