GC: Is anything transphobia?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

So, I started thinking about this question after my last thread. I feel many trans people pretend like everything is transphobia and really overuse it. I don’t think that means that transphobia can never happen though. I can’t really think of an example of it in my life (although mine is not typical), but it still can happen.

Is believing a lot of negative things about trans people as a group because they are trans, transphobia in your minds or is that just like justifiable? Maybe this is a silly question for this audience, but I guess I’ve been sort of idealistic that GCs objections to trans stuff don’t mean you think we are all bad people. I was surprised by some of the answers in my last thread because I felt like if someone has been seriously vetted to adopt a child, it doesn’t seem like discriminating against them based on being trans could be anything other than transphobia assuming you feel like people of both sexes can be good parents and that homosexuals can be good parents. Some of the replies were defending it based on trans people believing an ideology, but you don’t have to believe an ideology to be trans. I’m just curious if GC believes there can be transphobia under any circumstances or that discriminating against trans people can always be okay because it’s fair to assume we are bad (even when screened for mental health issues for instance). I’ve always believed that gender critical isn’t anti-trans, but now I feel like maybe I’m being naive.

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

“Is believing a lot of negative things about trans people as a group because they are trans, transphobia in your minds or is that just like justifiable?”

I think assuming someone is a bad person because they are trans is probably transphobic. But believing that trans people uphold misogynistic ideas and reinforce harmful stereotypes is a pretty valid thought. And acknowledging that trans people are a threat to female rights is not transphobic, it’s just true. No matter what I may think of any particular trans individual, I can’t help but feel that they reinforce stereotypes that are harmful to women and men. And at the very least, there’s always going to be the issue of TW invading female spaces, regardless of what type of person the TW may be. Idk how to word this well, but there seems to be a lot of things that trans people generally do that interfere with other people’s rights and even consent at times, so I don’t know if I think it’s wrong to associate trans people with those things, I think it’s inevitable that all trans people will end up crossing some type of boundary, even if it’s just entering a bathroom. Again I can’t word this well atm, sorry.

“I was surprised by some of the answers in my last thread because I felt like if someone has been seriously vetted to adopt a child, it doesn’t seem like discriminating against them based on being trans could be anything other than transphobia assuming you feel like people of both sexes can be good parents and that homosexuals can be good parents.”

Feeling like both sexes can care for a child and not wanting a trans person to adopt your child are not really related imo. I view trans people as having a mental condition. Whether it’s dysphoria, agp or something else, I genuinely believe that all trans people have some type of mental situation that is not properly being treated. So even if they’re a gc trans person- I don’t know that I’d feel comfortable giving them my child. But I also probably wouldn’t agree to let someone else with a severe mental condition (I say severe because there are some conditions I would be fine with) adopt my child either. So for me, maybe it’s prejudice against certain types of mental conditions, not so much transphobia. I don’t even know if that’s a prejudice so much as wanting to place my child in the best hands possible. It also seems like your post was more about disclosure- and frankly I’d snatch my child out of someone’s arms with a quickness if I found out they withheld that type of info from me. Only knowing you online, I think you personally would be a good parent, but I think the bio mom deserves to fully know who she’s agreeing to give her child to. It’s shitty not to disclose and I see no way around that.

“Some of the replies were defending it based on trans people believing an ideology, but you don’t have to believe an ideology to be trans.”

But are you going to teach your child that trans women are women, or that they are men with dysphoria? Are you going to uphold the misogyny and homophobia rampant in some sects of your community, or are you going to teach your kid that’s those people are wrong? What are you planning on teaching your child about trans issues? You don’t have to believe the ideology, but are you upholding certain aspects of it?

“I’m just curious if GC believes there can be transphobia under any circumstances”

Harming or killing trans people, not allowing them housing, not giving them medical treatment (not talking about transitioning- general medical treatment), using slurs (pronouns and sexed terms are not slurs), denying them HUMAN (not female) rights, denying employment solely for them being trans if they are otherwise qualified (TW shouldnt have jobs designated for females, and pronouns shouldn’t be forced at work, idk how the bathroom thing would work out)- all of that is transphobic, imo.

“or that discriminating against trans people can always be okay because it’s fair to assume we are bad (even when screened for mental health issues for instance).”

I don’t think not wanting your child to be raised by someone who upholds ideals that are dangerous and offensive to you is any type of phobia or discrimination, personally. But it’s not okay to discriminate against trans people. Discrimination doesn’t mean “anything that upsets trans people or any time trans people don’t get what they want” tho (not saying you said that, just saying there’s a difference)

“I’ve always believed that gender critical isn’t anti-trans, but now I feel like maybe I’m being naive.”

I mean... I think it varies. Some gc say do what you want to your body but leave everyone else out of it, others say transition shouldn’t be a thing. Some gc say they’ll use pronouns. Others refuse. I don’t think there’s a consensus, other than the belief that men are male and women are female and sex can’t be changed.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

No matter what I may think of any particular trans individual, I can’t help but feel that they reinforce stereotypes that are harmful to women and men. And at the very least, there’s always going to be the issue of TW invading female spaces, regardless of what type of person the TW may be. Idk how to word this well, but there seems to be a lot of things that trans people generally do that interfere with other people’s rights and even consent at times, so I don’t know if I think it’s wrong to associate trans people with those things, I think it’s inevitable that all trans people will end up crossing some type of boundary, even if it’s just entering a bathroom. Again I can’t word this well atm, sorry.

Those concerns make sense. I like to think they aren't universal and GC spaces focus on the worst trans people so everyone can get outraged about them. If using a bathroom for someone's target sex is violating a boundary though then almost all trans people have crossed a boundary.

I view trans people as having a mental condition. Whether it’s dysphoria, agp or something else, I genuinely believe that all trans people have some type of mental situation that is not properly being treated.

I guess I was hoping that the mental illness part could be like less of a part of the conversation on adoption issues because you are screened for mental health so it wouldn't be a concern. I guess, do you think a transitioned person is capable of being mentally healthy? If not, then I guess there's no point in discussing further, but I don't think we are doomed to have mental issues forever because we are trans. A transitioned person who suffered from dysphoria has been treated for their mental situation even if that treatment isn't something you agree with. If the treatment wasn't proper that is more like a statement about your beliefs.

I don’t even know if that’s a prejudice so much as wanting to place my child in the best hands possible. It also seems like your post was more about disclosure- and frankly I’d snatch my child out of someone’s arms with a quickness if I found out they withheld that type of info from me. Only knowing you online, I think you personally would be a good parent, but I think the bio mom deserves to fully know who she’s agreeing to give her child to. It’s shitty not to disclose and I see no way around that.

One thing I said in the other thread was that maybe even if it were transphobic it should still be accepted because of what an important choice that is. Transphobic doesn't have to mean that choice isn't okay. Do you think it would be similar to a gay couple where the birth mother is just homophobic and doesn't think gay people should be parents?

But are you going to teach your child that trans women are women, or that they are men with dysphoria?

I'm going to teach them the second one because that's what I believe, although clearly a lot of people transitioning don't fit that I think so it is complicated. I probably wouldn't emphasize the man part as much as you, but I know I'm male and also an adult which means I am a man, even if that's not how people see me. I certainly wouldn't teach TWAW because I think it's nonsense. I'm very against homophobia and misogyny and call it out. Do you think existing as a transsexual reinforces an ideology by itself? I don't think it does, but if it does, I can't really stop being that exactly.

Harming or killing trans people, not allowing them housing, not giving them medical treatment (not talking about transitioning- general medical treatment), using slurs (pronouns and sexed terms are not slurs), denying them HUMAN (not female) rights, denying employment solely d’or them being trans if they are otherwise qualified (TW shouldnt have jobs designated for females, and pronouns shouldn’t be forced at work, idk how the bathroom thing would work out)- all of that is transphobic, imo.

Agreed. Thanks!

I mean... I think it varies. Some gc say do what you want to your body but leave everyone else out of it, others say transition shouldn’t be a thing. Some gc say they’ll use pronouns. Others refuse. I don’t think there’s a consensus, other than the belief that men are male and women are female and sex can’t be changed.

That makes sense! I try to identify people who just hate us are aren't really gender critical. A lot of conservatives and anti-feminists are attracted to GC spaces because they are trans critical and they may not actually be gender critical. I guess I just want to know who I'm talking to. If someone just hates trans people to their bones, I don't really want to spend time trying to find agreement with them because there never will be any. Sometimes I worry that people may have those beliefs, but be hiding them behind being gender critical.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

“If using a bathroom for someone's target sex is violating a boundary though then almost all trans people have crossed a boundary”

Imo it is. I don’t think it matters what gc focuses on, it’s a boundary that is crossed regardless of who and why. I wasn’t even thinking of anything bad that could happen, I just think females deserve male free spaces.

As for the mental health part- I think a transitioned person can be healthier than before, perhaps. You seem to be. But would you be if something happened and you couldn’t take your hormones? Would you be if you were outed? (Again not you specifically just generally). To me, a part of truly being healthy would be being okay with being known as trans. I get that there are situations where you may not be safe? But I think generally, a healthy person can be fully upfront and honest about themselves, and can accept when people don’t accept them. I’m thinking of our last discussion when we talked about whether or not you’d tell your friends and others close to you- to me, a mentally healthy trans person would be comfortable with people around them knowing, because they fully accept themselves. I have a headache so I can’t word things well today and it’s super frustrating, sorry.

Re adoption comments- I think open adoption is much more common today and even if it’s not open, birth parents could easily use social media to see their bio kids and the adoptive parents. So to me, it’s not worth the risk to hide being trans or gay. I think someone being homophobic and not wanting a gay couple to adopt their kids is shitty (being gay is not a mental condition), but if they’re super religious or something then they have a right to place their kid with a hetero couple. But the difference is that a gay couple would be an openly gay couple looking to adopt. If you aren’t open about being trans (at least with the adoption stuff) you could be withholding information that would make a huge difference to the bio parents. And I think there are plenty of people willing to- perhaps even seeking to- allow a trans person (and their partner if applicable) adopt. There’s no need to withhold info when there are people who wouldn’t exclude you.

  • I think transition to alleviate dysphoria isn’t inherently sexist, but I think the concept of transition (from the doctors/surgeons- not the patients) is entirely based on sexism and homophobia. I don’t blame trans people for wanting to transition since it’s an option- and the only option that could give them what they want- but I think the root of its intent was not to help people- it was to have less gnc/gay people, in theory. So I think it’s a situation where the origins are sexist and homophobic, but it’s been pushed as “the treatment”, so I get why genuinely dysphoric individuals want it. I personally think that aside from rare cases, it causes more harm than good to the person transitioning, and I fear the long term effects of cross sex hormones. Idk if that even answered your question lol

I agree with your last paragraph! As I said, I think you’d make a great parent and I do hope that you’re able to adopt. I respect that you’ll be honest with your kid(s) and I think if/when you disclose being trans to a potential bio mom, if she had any questions or concerns your responses would assuage them.

[–]strictly 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Is anything transphobia?

If I have a company and fire someone just for taking cross-sex hormones that would transphobic. Trans people have the same human rights as other people so denying them these rights for being trans would be transphobic.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Happy to hear that! If you were an employer and you chose not to hire someone, even though they were the most qualified, because you knew or suspected they were trans, would that also be transphobic?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have a question, and I haven’t really fully formed an opinion on the answer yet myself, because I think there are a lot of variables.

Is it transphobic to not hire a trans person, not because you dislike trans people, but because of the potential issues having a trans person on staff could bring up? There’s a lot of exceptions that have to be made for trans people that may cause discomfort for the rest of the staff, there’s the issue of opening the door for a lawsuit or some type of backlash if the needs and wishes of the trans employee aren’t put ahead of the rest of the staff. So, I guess I’m wondering if someone knows that hiring a trans person could cause issues in the workplace, is it transphobic to not hire them? I think for me personally, I’d tell a trans person that I’d hire them and protect them, but they’d have to respect the boundaries of the other employees when it comes to certain spaces and I’d tell my staff that if they aren’t comfortable with using pronouns of the opposite sex for a trans person, the neutral pronouns (they/them) would have to be used as a type of compromise- but even that could be taken as transphobic. So what is the proper way for an employee to hire a trans person, but ensure the comfort of all employees in the work place? Or is it understandable to not hire a trans person if you suspect it could cause issues? I think it’s better to find compromises that both the trans employee and the rest of the staff can agree on, but idk

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

they’d have to respect the boundaries of the other employees when it comes to certain spaces

This is the problem with a lot of trans "rights"; they directly encroach on female rights with the special treatment they require. You end up forcing women to share bathrooms with men and to call men women, you call them bigots just for the act of recognising men and the oppression they overwhelmingly put women through. Entertaining wishful thinking rooted in a misogynistic ideology that feminism has been fighting against for decades is a pretty different requirement compared to, you know, not thinking of women or black people as subhuman and biologically inferior.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is an interesting question and I may not have a perfect answer. I think if it’s a like a legal concern where you aren’t sure if you can have a policy everyone is comfortable with that is also legal, the I’d be sympathetic to someone not feeling like they could hire someone. If it just like I don’t want to create a internal policy around trans people that enables me to be able to hire a trans person, then I feel like that might be transphobic. Nothing says if you have a policy, at least in the United States, that you enforce preferred pronouns or have the employee use spaces based on their gender identity (even if it’s considered best practices). If you had a policy (that is legal) and your potential trans new hire wasn’t comfortable with it, they don’t have to take the job. If they do take the job and your policies are clearly stated (and also legal), you should be well protected.

[–]strictly 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you were an employer and you chose not to hire someone, even though they were the most qualified, because you knew or suspected they were trans, would that also be transphobic?

Yes, or the consequence is transphobic. Moral principles like not lying can be very important to people so in places where not pretending trans people are the opposite sex is against the law it could be understandable if a employer would refrain to hire someone who could put them in jail. In those places I think the law should be changed so jail time is not risk when hiring a trans person. So in a scenario like that, it could be that a trans person loses a job opportunity they shouldn't have been denied as the employer isn't willing to risk jail time, so the trans person faces discrimination, but the fault is in the law. But if jail time isn't a risk then yes, choosing not to hire someone just for being trans would be transphobic of the employer.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m glad you see it this way. Thanks!

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

No word exists for "GNC-phobic", even though "GNC-phobia" exists. It only ever gets misidentified as "transphobia". Homophobia is closely-related to GNC-phobia, but I think it still warrants its own term, like the gay-panic defence.

Generally the accusation is levied at "non-believers", which is kind of like calling atheists "God-haters".

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Generally the accusation is levied at "non-believers", which is kind of like calling atheists "God-haters".

I don’t really follow. Medically transitioned people exist whether or not someone believes in trans identities.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Is there a specific prejudice against people who medically transition? Isn't it just GNC-phobia again? Medical transition can often alleviate some of the GNC-phobia experienced without it, right? I'd think pro-conformity people would prefer it over the alternative.

Social (& medical) transition from man into 'non-man' (every culture has a different name & I have no idea about their language's etymology) has been the outgrowth of homophobic societies. It's a compromise, a way for their non-conformity to find a place in a heteronormative society. The residual prejudice that remains against this population is surely just diluted homophobia?

If you view transgender as it's own independent identity I think you could believe transphobia exists. But I don't see it that way. The desistance rate in underage people is very high & the majority of those who desist are gay. Seems more like a phase in homosexual children than an identity. Then there are the adolescent trenders & the middle-aged autogynaephiles, which I regard as a sub-culture & a paraphilia respectively.

Obviously, some of the first group that I mentioned can get to the end of their life without ever desisting, but what are the implications that same-sex attraction is so common within the transgender population? Desistance actually "cures" people, but transition only "cures" sexual orientation indirectly via cross-gender self-identification, it doesn't result in "gender euphoria". Does a transgender population exist at all, or are they gay people who never grew out of their cross-gender identification phase?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Is there a specific prejudice against people who medically transition?

I feel like there is at least amongst some GC people. I tried to do a hypothetical where it seemed like transphobia because other thing would have been ruled out.

Does a transgender population exist at all, or are they gay people who never grew out of their cross-gender identification phase?

Even if we are, we still exist as something distinct from most gay people. I do think sexual orientation is related to how I am, but I’m trying to not making this about identity at all, just like how medically transitioned people should be treated and if it’s okay to treat us like bad people because we are trans.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Identity aside then, if we lived in a culture that favoured desistance over transition, maybe. Maybe if we looked down on people who medically transitioned as opposed to not, perhaps in that case you could call it transphobia. But I think the opposite is true. Our culture favours transition. I think 'transgender' is homophobia incarnate; internalised, pathologised homophobia.

Pat Robertson recently came out in support of transgender, when a week earlier he doubled down on his homophobia. Only out-of-touch liberals are surprised by this. It's perfectly logically consistent to anyone else.

So when I'm asked if transphobia exists, from my perspective I'm being asked if prejudice against a form of homophobic conversion therapy exists. That previous sentence may sound like I'm trying to appeal to personal incredulity, however it's not actually impossible for prejudice to exist against the very thing that society promotes. Take femininity for instance. Our culture forces women into femininity, but then punishes them for it. Femininity is sexism, but our culture is prejudiced against femininity as well.

So staying with femininity, do I believe "femphobia" (prejudice against femininity) exists? I think saying that it does would only distract from the root cause. It'd focus on the wrong thing. Femininity is conformity, therefore GNC women (which we could compare to the desisted & detransitioned populations) could be considered "femphobic", which turns the whole thing on its head.

I'd just say sexism exists & femininity, & what results from it, is an outgrowth of that sexism. The same goes for transphobia. The root cause is homophobia. Femphobia, as a by-product of sexism, also plays a role here, as being "woman-like" is discriminated against in the cases of women primarily, but backfires & ends up negatively affecting gay men & those who transition too.

I feel like there is at least [prejudice] amongst some GC people

I don't think of radical feminists as prejudiced. It's a very common anti-feminist accusation, usually as a way to dismiss what the feminist in question is saying. Feminists expose prejudice & the backlash never addresses that, it deflects, pretending that she is prejudiced herself. A feminist pointing out that men hate women always results in her getting labelled 'man-hater', which 'transphobe' has become a synonym for. I think radical feminists are just far less tolerant of sexism, in all its forms, which happens to include the sexist appropriation & erasure that is the inevitable result of trans ideology.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m talking about transphobia in very specific instances and whether or not it exists at all. I think it can and does exists in very specific cases, but I’m not trying to say that it’s some huge social problem. Femininity is look down upon even for people who are being force to perform it. I agree with that totally. It’s sadly just part of living in a patriarchal misogynistic world. I feel like you are just going on unrelated tangents though and not addressing the question the thread was about. I guess that is fine and I probably won’t continue to pry if I’m not getting anywhere.

I don't think of radical feminists as prejudiced. It's a very common anti-feminist accusation, usually as a way to dismiss what the feminist in question is saying. Feminists expose prejudice & the backlash never addresses that, it deflects, pretending that she is prejudiced herself. A feminist pointing out that men hate women always results in her getting labelled 'man-hater', which 'transphobe' has become a synonym for. I think radical feminists are just far less tolerant of sexism, in all its forms, which happens to include the sexist appropriation & erasure that is the inevitable result of trans ideology.

I’m certainly not intending to attack radical feminists. All radical feminists are GC but not all GC are radical feminists. I feel like it’s important to make that distinction. I’m even not really criticizing GC, let alone all GC, really just asking a specific question.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm just saying asking whether transphobia exists is like asking if "femphobia" exists, it's ass-backwards. That's the short version.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not sure if I fully understand what you mean at least for the question I’m asking, but I get the you don’t feel like it’s a good question and feel like we should be focusing on the homophobia, lack of desistance, or whatever that creates people like me in your view.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Sure they exist, but medical transition still doesn't change sex.

Non-believer in gender is how I understood it.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I guess I just wasn’t sure how the analogy made sense here because the question was about discrimination. Not believing in gender or that trans people can change sex doesn’t make medically transitioned people not exist to you. It totally doesn’t involve identities, just people who exist in the world. An atheist isn’t likely to encounter god, but someone who doesn’t believe in gender still might have to interact with a trans person.

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

God is unproveable, just like gender is. Religion, like gender, is an identity, and everyone is free to have one, but nobody has to believe in it. If I as GC meet a medically transitioned transwoman, that person's gender is just their personal identity. Their surgeries don't make me believe in their identity over reality. To me they are a male who has modified their body. Disbelief in the ideology doesn't mean disbelief in those that believe the ideology lol. It's a pretty clear analogy imo..

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I think I follow the analogy (still maybe confused on how it relates though). I guess I just don’t see how it answers the question. Is okay to discriminate against someone because they are medically transitioned person and you feel like medically transition people subscribe to an ideology which is bad?

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Oh, like other users in this thread, I don't think bullying or discrimination is okay. Basic human rights for all. I do resent if I'm forced to play along with their ideology and give up my actual rights for their ideals. But, this disbelief in their identity is not discrimination, just like an atheist who doesn't believe in religion doesn't necessarily discriminate against religious people.

That being said, I don't think it's unfair to keep transwomen and women separate, as we are different groups, and I don't think it's discrimination to do this. Some services in life are exclusive to certain groups with certain needs, and it's not discrimination to exclude those the services aren't meant for. Wouldn't you agree, or do you think this is discrimination?

About your overall question, could you clarify what do you consider discrimination on the basis of trans identity? It comes across to me that a lot of trans people talk about discrimination in the sense of people not believing their identities or not dating them, rather than not being afforded basic rights. The ability to adopt a child I would say is also not really a basic right, because no one is entitled to someone else's child, plus it ties in to wider debates of mental illness and informed consent. Overall the question of transphobia is always annoying to me, because the most innocuous things are considered 'transphobic' today.

Tangentially, it's a bit funny to me because as a woman I am often discriminated against, but if I call out misogyny I'm dogpiled with 'not all men' etc. But if a trans person calls out transphobia, even for statements like 'sex is real', they get support and often the other person is cancelled. People will always judge, it's in human nature to do so, so why is trans ideology so untouchable but discrimination on the basis of sex is allowed? Strange world.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Wouldn't you agree, or do you think this is discrimination?

I would agree. I feel like someone can completely not support any gender stuff and not be transphobic.

About your overall question, could you clarify what do you consider discrimination on the basis of trans identity?

I feel like if you treat people worse, do not trust them, think they are bad people, think they are delusional, etc. just because they are trans then that is transphobic. I stated thinking about it related to the adoption question because I felt like if someone thought both sexes could be good parents and that homosexuals could be good parents, but they felt like a trans person shouldn’t be a parent just because they are trans then that seemed like transphobia to me. Also, to adopt, you are really vetted and screened so if someone was suffering from mental illness they wouldn’t be allowed to do it, so mental health wouldn’t be a concern either. It doesn’t mean anyone has a right to adopt or that someone wouldn’t be within their rights not to want to adopt to a trans person (literally any reason is valid), but it did seem like transphobia to me.

Overall the question of transphobia is always annoying to me, because the most innocuous things are considered 'transphobic' today.

Totally agree. It’s really crazy. That’s why I’m trying to make this super narrow.

People will always judge, it's in human nature to do so, so why is trans ideology so untouchable but discrimination on the basis of sex is allowed?

Misogyny is like is a bad or worse now as I feel like as it’s ever been. Like so many left wing males love “trans rights” because they can viciously attack females and be seen as woke for doing it.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thank you, I appreciate your views and thoughts as well.

It's also refreshing to hear "you can not support any gender stuff and not be transphobic" because this is a rare sentiment. But to tie it to your adoption example, if I don't support gender and don't want my baby raised by someone who does, then you say that's transphobic? These seem like conflicting views, but maybe I'm missing something.

I feel like if you treat people worse, do not trust them, think they are bad people, think they are delusional, etc. just because they are trans then that is transphobic.

I agree with you here but only in part. Particularly the 'delusional' aspect, because the majority of trans people I've interacted with have been delusional in some way. Is it discriminatory to point it out? My best friend is schizophrenic. I've seen him in the depths of delusion, and it's very similar to how some trans people talk about gender. As such, I don't agree that pointing out delusional thoughts is discriminatory. Thinking you can change your sex by changing your appearance? Very sexist, and very delusional. I also think it's valid not to trust a transwoman as a woman, because I'll never blame a woman for not trusting a male. Ok so finally I guess I only agree with the 'treating them badly' part then, which again goes back to basic human rights. No one owes anyone trust or validation.

I see trans people as any other person. Deserving of basic rights, but not deserving of special treatment for their internal identity, especially if this identity infringes on the rights that have been hard-won historically by my sex class.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for sharing!

But to tie it to your adoption example, if I don't support gender and don't want my baby raised by someone who does, then you say that's transphobic? These seem like conflicting views, but maybe I'm missing something.

How do you know that trans person supports gender? I understand that many do, but that doesn’t mean any individual trans person does. If you talk to them and they do support gender ideology then that would make sense to not want that, but I don’t think they have to go together.

I agree with you here but only in part. Particularly the 'delusional' aspect, because the majority of trans people I've interacted with have been delusional in some way. Is it discriminatory to point it out?

I feel like maybe you are talking about groups and I am talking about individuals. Trans people can totally be delusion, but does that mean that you’ve already judged that any trans person you meet is? That just seems transphobic to me.

I also think it's valid not to trust a transwoman as a woman, because I'll never blame a woman for not trusting a male.

I didn’t say trusting them as you would a woman. If you don’t ever trust male people and you also never trust a male trans person, that seems totally consistent and not at all transphobic. If you consider male trans people uniquely untrustworthy amongst male people on account of them being trans, that seems transphobic.

[–]Britishbulldog 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Firing/not hiring, assaulting/harassing, encouraging other people to be unkind/violent to someone because they’re trans. This is transphobia.

Ignoring someone’s request for coerced speech, not allowing them to trample women’s rights, not dating them due to their sex. That’s not transphobia, those are privileges some TRAs want trans people to have over women. That’s the issue GCers have.

Gender critical isn’t anti-trans people, but it’s anti-trans theory. We don’t believe we have an innate ‘gender identity’, we’re male/female because of our bodies. Queer theory depends on sexist stereotypes- in fact, I’m fairly sure they’d say I’m a closeted transman (STEM student, does weights, metalhead, football, doesn’t conform to the beauty rituals society imposes on women), when I’m just a tomboy. If society wasn’t so rigid in the way men and women HAVE to present differently, we wouldn’t have this mess.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with you on your points. I guess my questions would be, is it reasonable to assume trans people believe in that theory because they are trans or should they be judged individually? If it is makes sense to assume that trans people believe in the theory you are against, is it okay to discriminate on that basis?

[–]Britishbulldog 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t assume trans people are more likely to be QT because I’ve seen a fair few on the Internet who aren’t, and the most vociferous proponents of QT tend to be natal women (and men, to a lesser extent). I do not believe it is right to discriminate against a trans person who believes in QT, for the same reason it’s wrong to discriminate against other religions- harassing people because they believe in something different leads to more division and intolerance.

The reason I make this comparison is belief in an innate gender identity reminds me of belief in a soul (a common theme in many religions). I believe in neither, but I personally don’t care what you believe so long as you don’t force it upon me.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ha, this reminds me of something I just posted on Ovarit:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/everything-is-transphobic

Labeling everything under the sun "transphobia" really cheapens actual transphobia, which I would define as a profound dislike or disgust for transgender people, including a desire to see them treated badly or discriminated against.

Is believing a lot of negative things about trans people as a group because they are trans, transphobia in your minds or is that just like justifiable?

I think we should judge people as individuals, not as part of a group. That goes for anything, race, religion, sexual orientation, or trans status. I have seen troubling attitudes towards trans people, particularly trans women, from GC posters. Not so much here, but definitely on Ovarit. I think there's a common perception that every trans woman is a fetishist or potential criminal or misogynist, which I think is crazy. Someone being trans does not tell you about their politics, especially when there are plenty of GC-leaning trans people. Then you have tons of rabid TRA allies who are not even members of LGBT themselves yet are causing tons of harm. You can't say someone is problematic because they're trans when a lot of terrible behavior comes from non-trans people.

I’ve always believed that gender critical isn’t anti-trans, but now I feel like maybe I’m being naive.

There are some really hardcore GC people out there. I've seen stuff I would consider actual misandry. I think most of us are a lot more moderate than that. I'm definitely on the liberal side as far as GC goes, but not as much as I was when I started off on GCdebatesQT years ago. I also think a steady diet of nothing but examples of trans women behaving badly is honestly going to make people more apprehensive about trans women in real life. Bad stuff does happen, but it's important to keep it all in perspective.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Wow, that list is depressing. I feel like in actual life transphobia is really narrow and very little of what people blame on it makes sense. I’m not even sure I’ve experience it much and I’ve been trans forever.

I’ve never commented on Ovarit, but I do read a lot. It is very negative, but it’s also an outlet for people who feel like they can’t be honest other places, so it makes sense and it’s important. I feel like GCDebatesQT has always been a little less extreme because we actually talk to each other. Your approach seems like a balanced one. 😊

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's one particular poster there that I dislike. Maybe you've noticed her. Everything she says is so extreme. She definitely hates trans women, and possibly all other males, too.

I think it's good to have a more moderate stance. Of course when you say that, people attack you for "tone policing." But it's not female socialization that makes me say that. It's also strategic. If you want people to take you seriously, you can't act all hostile and crazy. People say GC is a cult, so we'd damn well better not act like it. It just gives them more fuel for the fire.

Plus I genuinely want people to get along. I want compromise. I don't hate anyone. Well, maybe the people who are harming kids. But beyond that, I don't hate TRAs. I just want them to understand some of the things they're advocating. I think most people are moderate and can be reasoned with.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that people who identify as trans deserve the same rights as any other person. So, if they are, for instance, harrased, threatened, assaulted, denied acess to education, health care, housing, and jobs because they are trans, that would be transphobia.

However, what a lot of transactivists are campaigning for are not, in my view, rights, but privileges. And by privileges I mean things like this: compelling speech in the form of prefered pronouns and inclusive language (the latter being often dehumanizing and only applied to women); being counted as the opposite sex in statistics; accessing to single-sex spaces of the opposite sex (from bathrooms and sports competitions to prissons); denying biology and rewriting history to further one's causes; lowering scientific and medical standards to further one's ideology; threatening, smearing, silencing, doxing, geting fired or physically assaulting people with opposing views; expecting that people ignore their sexual orientation when dating; or excusing any bad behaviour of people because of their status as trans. Also, I don't think it's wise to immediately assume that any time that something bad happens to a trans individual it's because of transphobia. I'm also not a fan of the Oppression Olympics in general, regardless of who does it.

Getting back to the actual discrimination trans may face that I mentioned in the first paragraph, I'm skeptical that transphobia is really the cause of it. Humans are ussually pretty good at telling the sexes appart and both transsexualism and transgenderism are new phenomenons. Also, many people think that trans are GNC homosexual people. So, it seems to me the discrimination that trans may face is due to homophobia and intolerance of people who "fail" at conforming with sex roles and stereotypes.

I don't think all trans are bad, but I do think the ideologies behind it tend to attract bad actors. Though, even in the case of individuals who are good and don't break anyone else's boundaries, I can't say I'm comfortable with the fact that they are still perpetuating sex stereotypes. Unfortunately, I'm sure many people, even some GC people, would consider me a bigot because of some of my views like not believing in the "true trans" or don't thinking that refering to someone for their biological sex is an insult. However, I don't think I'm one and I don't wish you any harm just because of your beliefs in this matter just like I don't wish any harm in religious people despite being agnostic and critical of certain religious practices.

As for your thread about adoption, you were asking whether to disclose your sex. Regardless of what the biological mother thinks about people like you, she has the right to know the truth. Futhermore, I fail to see how not to disclose it helps to combat her hypothetical transphobia. If she doesn't find out the truth, then her views remain unchallenged. If she finds out, her views will only get stronger.

Edit: spelling

[–]penelopekitty 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"but you don’t have to believe an ideology to be trans."

Yes, yes you do. There is no objective physical medical basis for diagnosing someone as trans. All diagnoses are psychological in nature and based in transgender ideology. If this ideology did not exist a person with this condition would simply be someone who may feel discomfort with some aspect of their body and may or may not prefer stereotypical trait associated with the opposite sex. This in no way means that they are actually of the opposite sex in any meaningful way.

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

A combination of gnc-phobia and homophobia is "transphobia". Since I don't believe being trans is real (I believe being dysphoric is real), I don't believe there's a phobia for it. Also, I am anti-male and dislike any male "passing" as female. As I used to say on the reddit sub, I've always supported females "passing" as male... it makes sense to want male privilege (to be seen as a gender conforming male) in this world.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Is it okay to be gnc-phobic or homophobic though to you if it’s against a trans person? I don’t really care what it’s called, but it seems like sometimes GC thinks discrimination is always justified if it’s against a trans person.

Edit: I saw your edit. Your response makes sense. If you are just anti-male, disliking male trans people totally makes sense because male obviously.

[–]censorshipment 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Depends on what you mean by okay... is it okay to have prejudiced/biased/bigoted opinions? Yes. Is it okay to physically or legally harm people? No.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair enough. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I’ve always believed that gender critical isn’t anti-trans, but now I feel like maybe I’m being naive.

I feel the same way, as a non-trans person. It seems like both sides have been getting more extreme recently, to me. I don't think it's a perfect world with easy answers, so some things that don't make sense to me still seem to exist. I don't really get how transsexualism works and have always been a little bit uncomfortable with the way it seems to connect to stereotypes, BUT, I do recognize that for some people it is the only way to escape some serious pain in their lives. So long as we can be open and try to be fair about boundaries, I want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. The main thing that seems primary is that we can keep conversation going, and listen to one another.

Anyway: I do think people can be transphobic, although perhaps it is complicated to define since it can depend on whether someone is "out" or not as trans, or whether you think they should be. Personally, my preference would be that trans people be treated like GNC members of their own sex, ie, not discriminated against but not given special privileges to opposite sex organizations /areas etc. But, I think in individual cases there can probably be wiggle room if everyone's happy with it...

Regarding an adoption, if a gay male couple would be ok, I think a trans couple should be. If the birth mom had any restrictions on wanting a female involved, then it should be revealed. If she already ticked boxes that said that would be ok with her, or if she's not allowed to turn them down for that, then I don't see why she should be able to turn you down. It might be nice to talk about, but if it's an open adoption, you can also just feel it out as it goes along. Good luck!

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I think you are right the both sides have gotten more extreme. On the trans side, what was really fringe 20 years ago has become completely mainstream. It was really sad to watch that happen (plus like massively more people coming out as trans).

The whole being “out” thing is such an interesting topic because I think there is like a discomfort maybe with the idea the trans people could be around the people don’t know it. People like that also don’t influence perceptions of trans people. Your transphobia views make sense. I guess, sometimes I feel like people hide behind GC rhetoric when it actually might be covering for legitimately hating us, so it’s been interest to see replies.

I’m glad you don’t think being trans would make someone bad as a parent. We’re doing a fully open adoption so she will get to know us. It’s just difficult to know what it will be like exactly so I’m trying to think about some of these things now. I don’t want to lie (and I won’t), but I’m not used to talking about it except with people who need to know. Thank you so much for the kind wishes!

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess, sometimes I feel like people hide behind GC rhetoric when it actually might be covering for legitimately hating us, so it’s been interest to see replies.

Yeah, this is the hardest part to work out. It's always kind of impossible to know if you can trust people, and maybe kind of naive to want to... so then relying on discussion and listening is a weak strategy. I don't have a good solution to this, because I think fighting is, in the end, a weak strategy too. But that doesn't leave many options that aren't weak strategies.

Plus, plenty of people probably don't even really know what their position is. Considering how many hypocritical arguments I've seen, it's clear a lot of folks just don't give things very close thought, and just go with their gut, jump on bandwagons, follow the crowd, or spout nonsense. And some of the time, they probably feel something different from what they say at that moment, or would easily change their mind in a different situation...

The whole being “out” thing is such an interesting topic because I think there is like a discomfort maybe with the idea the trans people could be around the people don’t know it.

You're right, this is probably more psychologically complicated than it might seem at the start. It doesn't seem like it should really matter, but then it feels like it would eventually matter if I were to have made assumptions about a friend based on thinking she had shared experiences (like going through a female puberty or worrying about pregnancy or menopause) that she hadn't. But maybe that's not so important if you understand each other now. I feel like I want to be able to know that I can also connect to male friends but maybe it is naive to imagine people won't carry expectations. I don't want what sex I am to dominate the patterns of my friendships and I wouldn't be angry at someone for hiding it but I feel like I would still be confused and assume we hadn't actually known each other very well... To me it seems like a big part of a background to keep from others.

But: as I said above, I do recognize that I can't grasp everyone else's experience and I try to accept that talking about it can just be really painful and best kept out of common discourse for some. That's where we run into the trust issue again, of course - that some people might take advantage of that and just demand to be accepted because it causes pain despite it being more like a game for them is a "hiding behind rhetoric" problem on the other side.

Anyway I appreciate your willingness to share your perspective and help keep a more moderate path open in this conversation. I don't know exactly where I stand but I think it's important to listen to as many reasonable voices as possible and yours is always one of them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

GC is anti trans as a group.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If society decided to treat Armenian men like women, & GC argued that Armenian men ought to be treated the same as all men, would that make GC anti-Armenian?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

Some of the replies were defending it based on trans people believing an ideology, but you don’t have to believe an ideology to be trans.

What do you mean by a child being trans, then?

And yes, I think there is such a thing as transphobia.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

When did I say something about a child being trans?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry, I misread you.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No worries! I feel like I worded it badly. It was about parents adopting when one of them is trans.