QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

Not gonna type a whole long thing, I’m just wondering why you think the examples of intersex conditions or even hermaphroditism make any type of argument in favor of trans people?

Intersex people are born with those conditions and their sex can still ultimately be determined. Trans people don’t have the same situation. Even if they have bottom surgery, at best they are replicating the appearance of the opposite sex’s genitalia, they don’t have the genitalia, chromosomes, gametes- anything- of the opposite sex. All these posts do is remind us that intersex conditions occur -rarely- and that this is an entirely different set of circumstances compared to someone transitioning.

So I guess my question is- what do you think intersex conditions mean for trans people and why? And how do you use intersex individuals as examples when it’s pretty obvious that there’s a difference between an anomaly at birth and someone intentionally taking cross sex hormones and (possibly) having surgeries?

If sex is a spectrum/not binary- what is the argument that trans people fall on the spectrum, despite being born a clear sex (unless they are actually an intersex trans person-which is a rarity)? As far as I understand, this type of spectrum occurs naturally/biologically, not artificially.

If these posts aren’t meant to support trans ideology, what is the point of them? What are you trying to argue?

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Imo they know on some level just how absurd what they are arguing is, hence the immediate abandoning of their threads as soon as they are questioned.

Dismantling biology under a pseudointellectual moral campaign to protect archaic gender roles, and reframe feelings as sacred. All because it feels good when people on Twitter agree, giving a little serotonin boost. They aren’t here to actually discuss anything. They’re here in the hopes of another serotonin boost and so they inevitably dump their sermons and run when it’s questioned, cause the questions are a threat to the constant validation loop.

[–]worried19 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Obligatory not QT, but I've been dismayed at the quality of the posts on this new sub. Rather than debating anything to do with trans politics, most of our QT posters seem obsessed with trying to prove that biology isn't real. It's not only alarming, but also weird how singular their focus is.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It' s the new goalpost, sex doesn' t exist, here' s a bunch of ridicoulous "scientific proofs" that demonstrate it.

It' s their attempt to make it the new truth (like it' s "true" that Marsha P. Johnson was the one responsible of Stonewall and gay rights and that gender identity is a biological reality) and use it to destroy women' s sex based rights completely.

[–]Britishbulldog 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Also, I find this sub dominated by us GCers. Almost as if they’re not willing to debate...

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I really miss the reddit sub for this group. There was always lively and civil discussion from both ends.

The problem is it was only GC, not QT, that was purged from reddit. Most QT do not want to question or defend their ideology, and those that do venture to do so cannot easily find this page anymore.

That, and of course I think their views don't have much of a leg to stand on upon further scrutiny.

[–]kwallio 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Kind of hard to debate "biology sux lol".

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Or they can't find us. Maybe we should do some recruiting on Reddit. I know there are better quality QT posters out there.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How could you even recruit on Reddit? The only LGBT space on Reddit that allows anything even peripherally related to gender critical thought is r/askgaybros.

[–]kwallio 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most of the posts seem very similar, almost as if they were written by the same person.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

I think it’s at least partly rooted in the brain so since we don’t have male brains, it’s at least analogous to intersex people though not the same.

Regardless, the arguments generally brought up in response to prior arguments against trans people with people claiming something like “you are a man or woman based on your genitals” or “if you have a Y chromosome you are a man” so it’s generally as a rebuttal rather than affirmative evidence.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Evidence of you not having a male brain?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (52 children)

There have been multiple brain scan studies indicating that trans women have brains distinct from cis men identifiable structures. Enough to at least convince me that there is a brain difference between a cis man and a trans woman.

I can’t be certain of my own brain structures of course since I’ve never had any kind of deep brain study, but it would make little sense to assume that I was the exception.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Okay but can you cite these studies? Because last I heard “Brain Sex” was debunked and so it’s hard to really engage with your comment until I actually see what your referencing. As far as I understand sex is not mental so I’m not really sure what “brain sex” would prove even if it hasn’t been debunked.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Not offhand. There was one on I believe white matter concentration and one for another area of the brain which found that particularly male attracted trans women had those structures distinct from cis men and closer to but not in the range or natal women. I don’t have them quickly available unfortunately.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

So you have things to back up your claim but can’t share them? I guess we can’t really discuss what you’re suggesting then. Thanks.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wondering, if you can’t cite the brain sex thing, could you possibly cite any claims that sex is determined by the brain, not genitalia or chromosomes etc? That way if you ever are able to produce the evidence that TW have female brains or that they don’t have male brains, nobody would be able to say that this just simply doesn’t matter since sex isn’t determined by what’s in your brain? In other words, can you show us that brain sex matters more than the other factors taken into consideration when determining sex? Perhaps evidence that doctors scan the brains of infants or something to determine their sex at birth? Still struggling to understand why brain sex would matter, even if you are correct in what you stated.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

If you say so. I don’t keep an index of studies handy.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Surely you’d be able to do a quick google or something? Hard to believe that something that proves the validity of transwomen would be so inaccessible. Can you address my other question?

It’s odd to me that you’d say “If you say so” while you’re basically “saying so” yourself. Almost sounds like you want us to take what you “say so” as factual whilst dismissing what we say and ask.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I said the brain studies convinced me there’s a biological basis distinct from cis men, not that they proved our “validity”.

What other question?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It’s below my other comment idk how to reword it succinctly. I just find it odd that you can’t produce something that was so convincing to you, if it were me, I’d probably have something like that saved, but we’re different people. Also a bit odd that it’s just this one study, I’d think there’d be a few that back it up. But I guess if you can’t show anything it’s best to move on.

[–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (35 children)

https://www.studyfinds.org/study-shows-differences-brain-structure-transgender-cisgender/

The researchers performed a structural analysis on 80 study participants using an MRI machine to determine differences in gray and white brain matter. The participants were between the ages of 18 and 49 and were divided into four groups of 20: cisgender women, cisgender men, transgender women who had taken no hormones, and transgender women who had taken hormonal treatment.

The results revealed a difference in brain volume in the region known as the insula, which is an important component in body image and self-awareness, along with other brain functions. The insula was smaller by volume in both hemispheres for transgender women who have and haven’t taken hormones when compared to cisgender women. Overall, the insula was the same size in transgender women and cisgender men, but smaller in transgender women compared to cisgender women.

“It’s important to recall that there’s no such thing as a typically female or male brain. There are slight structural differences, which are far more subtle than the difference in genitals, for example. Brain structures vary greatly among individuals,” notes Spizzirri.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (33 children)

To continue the article.

“We observed specificities in the brains of trans individuals, an important finding in light of the idea of gender ideology. The evidence is building up that it’s not a matter of ideology. Our own research based on MRI scans points to a detectable structural basis,” says Carmita Abdo, coordinator of the Sexuality Research Program (ProSex) at the Psychiatry Institute of Hospital das Clínicas and principal investigator of the study.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I can’t copy and paste it for some reason, maybe there’s a trick to it or maybe the site doesn’t allow it, but at the bottom of the article you two are discussing, they link the study, and the study disproved the idea the TW don’t have male brains, instead it suggests that depression and behavior attributed to their dysphoria is what causes the notable differences in their brains...

Also the article itself states that there’s no typical male or female brain, as brains vary individually.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

The study claims there is evidence to suggest a structural root for dysphoria. I quoted the statement from the head researcher that said as much.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As I said in my other comment- you didn’t say this, you said you don’t have a male brain. That is what I disagree with. Had you said this I wouldn’t have disagreed, I would have still wanted to see the source you mentioned though

[–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (28 children)

The important part is the truth about the lie you told.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

The conclusion from the study was that there were indicia of possible structural basis for dysphoria. You cherry picking a paragraph from an article doesn’t change the conclusion, which was reflected in what I posted but you conveniently left out.

[–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (26 children)

I quoted the important part about body image (which trans people seem to have a distorted sense of) and self-awareness (which trans people seem to lack) because you lied about a difference ("there is a brain difference between a cis man and a trans woman")... the difference is between trans women and cis women, not trans women and cis men.

The results revealed a difference in brain volume in the region known as the insula, which is an important component in body image and self-awareness, along with other brain functions. The insula was smaller by volume in both hemispheres for transgender women who have and haven’t taken hormones when compared to cisgender women. Overall, the insula was the same size in transgender women and cisgender men, but smaller in transgender women compared to cisgender women.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

You are implying that there isn’t a third option. I never claimed trans women had identical brains to natal women, just different than cis men. No structural difference in one area doesn’t disprove that Espescially in light of the conclusions of that study as a whole.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

A structural basis of dysphoria really just solidifies it as a mental illness, as there are similar structural differences in different mental disorders like depression and schizophrenia. It means nothing for gender.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not analogous at all. Sex is about gametes, not brains. Even if you were able to prove that trans natal males have a "feminine" brain that doesn't make them less males. Males with atypical brains are still males just like short males are still males.