ALL: Would removing "real life experience" requirements from trans healthcare benefit everyone?

submitted by ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria from self.GCdebatesQT

As lots of you probably know, there's a "real life experience" requirement to get genital reconstructive surgery in the US, or hormones replacement therapy in the UK. Essentially, a transgender biological male has to "live as a woman" for at least a year before he can get either of these things.

Now, I think anyone using this subreddit can agree that the idea of a biological male "living as a woman" is patently ridiculous, and that this requirement is nonsensical. But what it does do is force dysphoric men to go around "identifying as" women before they can get their dysphoria medically treated, which is delusional, ridiculous, bad for them, and bad for women.

I have really bad dysphoria about my genitals, and having them surgically removed would relieve a lot of anxiety for me, but since I identify as a man and don't want to put on a dress and go around calling myself a woman, that's probably never going to happen. I think the current system is one that forces dysphoric males to choose between violating women's rights or having control over their own bodies, and I think it's one of the few cases where a change would benefit everyone involved, leading to fewer dysphoric males identifying as women, and male-identifying dysphoric males like me being able to live a more comfortable existence.

Would you support this change?

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

I don’t support any surgery for dysphoria or identities, and can’t see any benefit to removing barriers for extreme cosmetic surgeries.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

The theory is pretty simple: males with gender dysphoria will pursue treatment to alleviate their suffering. Removing this barrier will allow them to do that without having to intrude into your lives and spaces or appropriate your identities. Isn't that an improvement?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

What part of I do not support cosmetic genital surgery to resolve mental distress was unclear?

A large number choose to intrude whether they are obliged to perform femininity or not. They appropriate women’s identities by claiming to be women, not just by deifying gender norms like clothes and makeup.

It solves nothing for women, just makes accessing surgery and women’s spaces afterwards even easier.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

How does it make accessing women's space easier? Pretending to be a woman is a requirement for the surgery, not vice versa.

It's creating a system where the medical establishment is actively encouraging men to enter women's spaces. I don't understand who you think this benefits.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Because most men getting this surgery are saying they are women...they use women’s spaces whether their dick is gone or not. They want to be there. Very few claim they are forced. They actively seek it out.

Men like yourself are even less common than transgender ones.

I don’t think anyone benefits from cosmetic genital surgery, and women do not benefit at all. I don’t care about whether men are benefitting and you will find most women here don’t care either. You personally getting easier access to surgery does not benefit women or anyone else.

A medical establishment that benefits anyone is one that does not perform invasive sterilising surgery on people to alleviate mental distress.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Well if they insist that they're women and use women's spaces, then the barrier of "has to live as a woman" doesn't matter to them, since they're already doing it.

This change would only matter to men like me who don't want to go out in public calling themselves women or using women's spaces.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Right, a tiny handful of men who are not a priority to feminists, and who benefit far more than any woman ever could from such a proposal, whilst also making access even easier for all the other men who think woman is a feeling to get surgery.

Really men are the ones benefitting from this. women get nothing since men are in our spaces regardless of whether or not men have to perform femininity for surgery.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Right, a tiny handful of men who are not a priority to feminists, and who benefit far more than any woman ever could from such a proposal, whilst also making access even easier for all the other men who think woman is a feeling to get surgery.

1: they would already have access to the surgery.

2: I don't get how men having this surgery would hurt women. How does me not having a penis harm you or any other woman?

Really men are the ones benefitting from this. women get nothing since men are in our spaces regardless of whether or not men have to perform femininity for surgery.

Some men might not especially want to pretend to be women or use women's spaces, but do so because it's listed as a requirement to get the surgery. If this change occurred, those men wouldn't do that anymore. I have no interest in using women's spaces but really want this, and would be forced to identify as a woman in order to get it.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Men who have the surgery harm women. Men who have the surgery get counted as women in news and crime stats. Men who have the surgery do not become any less male and do not become magically harmless to females. Men accessing women’s spaces is harming women. It’s removing our right to have those spaces and it’s taking away safety from women.

I suggest finding some basic gc and radfem points and reading them to understand.

Some men might blah blah blah. So? That’s for men to deal with. It doesn’t effect women whether you’re forced to or not, because men are taking our spaces away regardless. What would you like women to do about barriers made by men for men?

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Men who have the surgery get counted as women in news and crime stats.

This is a problem with society counting these men as women, rather than men getting surgeries.

Men accessing women’s spaces is harming women

They can access these spaces with and without surgery anyways, because surgery in many places isn't even required for a person to be counted as the opposite sex.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Men who have the surgery harm women. Men who have the surgery get counted as women in news and crime stats. Men who have the surgery do not become any less male and do not become magically harmless to females. Men accessing women’s spaces is harming women. It’s removing our right to have those spaces and it’s taking away safety from women.

All of this applies equally to men who don't have this surgery, so I don't think the surgery is what's causing the problem here.

I suggest finding some basic gc and radfem points and reading them to understand.

I have probably spent several hundred hours of my life reading things written by radical feminists on here, on twitter, and on reddit before GC was banned.

What would you like women to do about barriers made by men for men?

Not deliberately try to keep those barriers in place. For example, in the UK, people who can't get hormone therapy through the NHS with its numerous restrictions and 4 years queue time are ordering it from the EU, and there's been efforts recently by radfems to criminalize that. Could you please not do that? I'm not invading your spaces or anything, can't you stay out of my life as long as I stay out of yours?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The thing is, it may be required for the surgery, but it’s not required for the spaces, and most TW claim to be women and never get the surgery. I think that’s what we’re trying to point out.

Eta- this wasn’t where I meant to put this comment

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

which comment are you trying to reply to?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly I can’t remember I had three people messaging me over three posts I got mixed up, my bad.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would certainly call that an improvement, even if ultimately, it wouldn't change anything. We do not live in a world where male trans people don't want to intrude into women's spaces, surgery or no surgery. In fact, I'd say surgery is undertaken in most cases precisely because they want to intrude in women's spaces and appropriate their identities. Men would still get these surgeries for the sole reason that they think it now changes them into a real woman, and all the usual issues with trans misogyny stem from that idea.

While I would certainly not consider any trend of extreme cosmetic surgeries on healthy human bodies a good thing, if this was just about men wanting to castrate themselves or surgically alter their penises, I would not be opposed to it on feminist grounds. I do think such extreme invasive surgeries need tight gatekeeping due to the amount of mental health issues involved, but ultimately, it's not my choice to make. So I would definitely be in favour of removing the "living as a woman/man" requirement, because my main problem with trans people isn't the fact that they want to get plastic surgeries or hormone therapies (they can do with their bodies what they want as long as I don't have to play along with this game of pretend), it's that they're using plastic surgeries and artificially induced hormonal imbalance as evidence of being the opposite sex and using that to actively advocate backwards patriarchal ideas on women. Requiring "living as a woman" before getting hormones or surgery creates an explicit link between the two, and GC should be opposed to that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

I don’t think it would benefit females at all since males enter our spaces and claim to be women even with their penises. I agree with Houseplant that surgery shouldn’t be considered a cure for mental illness, but whether they “live like a woman” or not, males transitioning will always cause problems for females. There may be a few men like you, and I appreciate that you can acknowledge the ridiculousness of the idea of men “living as women”, but you are a rarity. Removing the barrier would just make it easier for TW to invade female spaces, not even, really, since it’s already insanely easy for them. I don’t really see a way to avoid the majority of TW thinking they’re entitled to female spaces or claiming to use those spaces for safety reasons.

The only way to help females is to keep female spaces for females.

The thing is, whether they have to “live like a woman” or not before surgery, most of them will use female spaces after the surgery, which would now be easier for them to obtain.

I will say, since these surgeries are available, the only people who should be considered for them should be people who can acknowledge that they aren’t women and are men. People who can’t accept reality shouldn’t be getting these surgeries imo. What I mean to say is, I think rather than “living like a woman”, TW should have to accept, admit, and acknowledge that they are not women and are men, and that these procedures and hormones won’t change that fact. If they can’t do that, I don’t see how they are mentally stable enough for the surgeries. I’m sure that’s gonna upset a lot of qt but that’s how I feel.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I will say, since these surgeries are available, the only people who should be considered for them should be people who can acknowledge that they aren’t women and are men.

The problem is, right now, it's the reverse. Men are required to call themselves women in order to get these surgeries, and to have experience "living as women" (i.e. impersonating women and invading female spaces).

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do you really believe most transwomen are forced to ~identify as women~?

Cause no. They identify as women and get the surgery in a poor attempt to make their bodies match their imagination.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Only one tenth of people who identify as women did or want to do surgery. So majority are just on cross-sex hormones and sometimes not even that.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

They are forced to if they want to get the surgery, yes. It's a standard requirement that patients must "live as their preferred gender" (i.e. pretend to be women) for a year before getting genital removal.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nope. Most identify as women long before they demand their titty skittles or surgery.

You are wrong and asking random women on the internet to do you personal favours and vote how you want and it’s based on a wrong assumption. Nice one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I know- I’m saying that’s what I disagree with

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So would you be amenable to removing this requirement?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In an ideal world, qualified professionals would push for and find alternative and less extreme treatments, but since transitioning is what people claim is a “cure” or treatment, I would say that if 1. The patient can acknowledge their sex, and that they are not transitioning to the opposite sex/gender, that their sex will not and cannot change and this procedure is purely to alleviate dysphoria and 2. If they are male, they agree to leave female spaces (and sports etc) alone, then yes, I’d be fine with those two points, coupled with a diagnosis of dysphoria, being the requirements for the procedure. I was only saying I agree that to me, altering the external isn’t a cure for the internal. But idgaf what adults do to themselves, provided they are mentally sound.

This way, though, females retain female spaces- though I’m sure many TW who pass or think they do would still invade spaces, at least we’d be able to tell an obvious male to remove himself from our spaces.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

most of them will use female spaces after the surgery, which would now be easier for them to obtain.

Don't they get counted as female either way, surgery or no surgery?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

So you would deny the only effective treatment for genital Dysphoria to the majority of sufferers of one sex because they disagree with you philosophically?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I disagree with it ethically as well. And I disagree with it being the only effective treatment. But as I’ve said so many times- I don’t give a fuck what a grown person does to their body. I simply think they should be rational and mentally healthy when they do it. And I think it changes nothing significant, so males should stay out of female spaces regardless of what they do to their bodies.

And it’s not just one sex, I feel that females should be mentally stable before getting these types of surgeries as well.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Can you produce any ethical study saying there’s another way to cure genital Dysphoria? Or a statement from a trans person who had their genital Dysphoria successfully cured?

It’s the only effective treatment. And even if you don’t think it should matter legally or anything else it still changes something significant, it makes life tolerable. That’s what should matter when you are talking about care.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay- if it’s the only treatment, I still think that patients should be able to acknowledge and agree to what I said before being operated on. So if someone with the mental illness of dysphoria can acknowledge the things I mentioned, as I said, snip away all you want as long as they are an adult. I can keep rewording this but I’m basically saying the same thing, masks.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Also- I didn’t deny them shit. I said they should be able to acknowledge reality. If they can do that, snip away for all I care.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It’s not a question of reality. None of us thing we magically get X chromosomes. It’s a semantic disagreement and because someone disagrees with you, you would deny them care. How is that justifiable to you?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It is a question of reality. The word woman has a meaning that explicitly exists to exclude males. TW are not women. If they can’t accept this if they can’t understand this, to me- they are not of sound mind and shouldn’t be having surgeries. You can try to twist it all you want, but I think it’s infinitely more unjustifiable to allow people who can’t handle the truth to have surgeries like this. You can keep asking me- my answer is never going to change.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

It’s a question of semantics. The material world exists as it exists no matter what you call it. You are arguing language and then saying anyone who disagree with you is denying reality.

You would have denied me the only reason I’m still alive because we disagree with each other and I would never call myself a man. There’s not much else to say.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The material world does indeed exist as it exists, no matter what you call yourself. Women are female. Males are not and cannot be women. It’s biology. It’s reality. It’s the truth whether you accept it or not. The language exists to define and describe reality. Its not disagreeing with me- it’s literally disagreeing with the meaning of the word. The word was made to define a type of human that you are not and will never be able to be. Sorry that you can’t handle it. It doesn’t make it untrue. The fact that you can’t accept it and push for the things you’ve pushed for and said the things you’ve said in the past is precisely why I feel how I feel. You want to know the truth- you, masks, specifically, are the reason I became this extreme. Your words and your stances got me here more than anyone else I’ve ever interacted with on this subject.

I stand by what I said, accuse me of whatever you want, and hope that GB or that other poster that always backs you up shows up to upvote you, I guess.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

You are a deeply hateful person and I give up.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao the fact that you think yourself to be less hateful than me is hilarious. You literally told sexual assault survivors that we were wrong for being unwilling to tend to our rapists wounds if we defended ourselves from them. Bye

Imagine thinking people should be mentally stable and able to accept reality is hateful lol

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think this kind of surgery should be treated as cosmetic surgery, so everyone who wants it can get it... by paying it yourself.

It' s really simple for me, if it' s really a treatment for dysphoria, then it should be subjected to medical gatekeeping, and that gatekeeping should be much more objective than "this guy hates his dick so much that he wants to get rid of it, let' s make him wear skirts and make-up for a year to prove that he' s serious about it". However, there is no objective anything that can be used to prove that this not only is needed, but also that it' s the best treatment and that it actually works. Levels of satisfaction among the trans community isn' t really a good way to show how great this thing is, because people who are severely mentally ill and/or obsessed will have a much harder time to be honest on the outcome.

So in the end, it would be like any other unnecessary modification of your body: you want bigger boobs? Pay for it. You want a liposuction? Pay for it. You want to cut your healthy breasts off? Pay for it. You want to get rid of your penis, for whatever reason? Pay for it.

I don' t think linking transition surgery with stereotypes is a good idea, but I don' t think transition surgery is a good idea to begin with.

Also

I think the current system is one that forces dysphoric males to choose between violating women's rights or having control over their own bodies

Nobody is forcing them to violate women' s rights. They decide to do it. Nobody is forcing them to change their sex markers on their IDs, nobody is forcing them to use women' s sex-segregated spaces, nobody is forcing them to join women' s sport leagues, nobody is forcing them to steal women' s position in politics, organizations and schools. They want to do it, they feel entitled to do it, and at this point I think they also enjoy doing it.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Nobody is forcing them to violate women' s rights. They decide to do it. Nobody is forcing them to change their sex markers on their IDs, nobody is forcing them to use women' s sex-segregated spaces, nobody is forcing them to join women' s sport leagues, nobody is forcing them to steal women' s position in politics, organizations and schools. They want to do it, they feel entitled to do it, and at this point I think they also enjoy doing it.

It's literally a requirement to get your genitals removed.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It' s a requirement to use women' s rape shelters, locker rooms, join women' s sports and be nominated in a women' s position in political parties? Maybe it is to change your markers (which, if it' s such a problem, you can change back after you get your surgery), but nobody is forcing you to use women' s stuff.

Also, I remember someone in the old sub talking about a category of gay men who removed their genitals and nipples in order to live their BDSM kinks: I doubt they were forced to identify as a woman in order to do it.

Plastic surgeons do whatever you want as long as you pay them. Which is, in itself, something horrific.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

I don't want to be in your political parties I just want to cut my disgusting dick off

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Why do you think women are obliged to help or to console you for you hating your dick?

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Where in here did I say anything about "obligation"?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You didn’t use the exact word, you just swanned in and told a bunch of women that they should care more about you and your dick and the plight of the poor widdle men.

Why do you think women should care about you not liking your willy? Why should women vote to make life easier for men?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You specifically, maybe not. Others definitely do, see Lily Madigan and Emilia Decaudin for example. The point is that you are making it a question of men being forced to destroy women' s rights if they want control on their body. Nobody is forcing Madigan or Decaudin to appropriate women' s position, it' s something they chose to do. Same goes for any trans natal male who uses women' s bathrooms/locker rooms/rape shelter, or joins a women' s team.

You won' t probably be one of those people since you say that you identify as a man, but the issue for us is not going away just because you, singular person, are not going to abuse the loophole.

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I'd advocate for radical acceptance, body positivity, and non-gender based therapy over genital mutilation.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Radical acceptance and body positivity won’t make you not want to throw up when you see your genitals.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So many people are repulsed with their bodies, yet find ways to grow and accept them.

A non-gender-affirming therapist would be a great help in these cases, for exposure therapy and mentality.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

You have absolutely no proof of the effectiveness of those therapies on genital Dysphoria. That proof doesn’t exist. This is the problem. You decry the only effective therapy and suggest instead what amounts to psychological snake oil for this issue.

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sigh, we've already debated effective therapies and the fact that dysphoria is often overcome without treatment, particularly in minors. We've already debated how just because a treatment for a condition (that is under-researched to begin with) is the standard, doesn't mean it's the best or only possible option. Also, we've compared this disorder to other similar disorders and seen a complete different approach. This method does not mitigate harm overall, unlike other possible therapies. So no, transition is not the only treatment, and can have serious adverse effects. It's dangerous to claim it's the only way to cope.

You don't want proof, as any proof we show you you ignore. You don't want to hear about other options, and you don't want to understand why treating transition as the cure-all of dysphoria can do more harm than good for many. Again, glad it helped you, even though you still seem very unhappy as a person and with your trans status. But there are always other ways, even if you don't want to see them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

No other effective therapy for transition exists. The medical community agrees. If you have actual evidence you are welcome to present it , but we both know you just don’t want trans people around so you want transition to be impossible. You don’t actually have any knowledge, nor I expect actually care, if there is another way to actually treat dysphoria.

An opinion piece by someone who hates trans people isn’t proof of anything. Actual studies. I’ll save you some time, there aren’t any.

You not liking something isn’t a reason for it to be illegal.

And of course I’m unhappy with my trans status. I’m a second class citizen that looks like a freak. But I’m still happier than I was trying to live in the body I naturally developed. Only a fucking idiot wouldn’t choose to be cis if they could. But we don’t get to choose. You can’t just decide to be comfortable in a body your entire being rejects and is disgusted by. That’s a pipe dream and you are pushing to replace effective medicine with happy thoughts and unmitigated suffering because you don’t want people like me to exist, just to be miserable in their “proper roles”.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

As far as I'm concerned, having to have a penis is the "mutilation" at play here. If someone surgically attached a penis to you that you didn't want, you'd feel mutilated, right? You wouldn't just tell yourself "body positivity" and try to keep it and get used to it. I can assure you that the fact that I was born with one makes it no less distressing for me.

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol your natural body is not 'mutilation', how insulting to people who have actually been mutilated.

Just because you have a mental issue with your body, doesn't make your body the issue.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If someone surgically attached a penis to you that you didn't want, you'd feel mutilated, right?

It's baffling that you assume mentally healthy people would ever assume that a healthy, natural part of their body is "mutilating them".

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

well you've never had to feel the disgusting sensation of having that part stuck on you, so what gives you the right to tell me I should have to be subjected to it for the rest of my life?

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will tell you a secret, majority of teen girls feeling very uncomfortable or hateful towards their bodies. Almost every woman grown up through body dysmorphia. This does not mean we all must be mutilating ourselves to remove our healthy organs we are distressed. This way humanity would end, as it will affect almost all women. You should be trying to accept yourself or fight patriarchy that is causing such distress instead. Blaming women for all is just wrong, demanding women to share our spaces because you feeling uncomfortable is an abuse, demanding women to fight for you and strip out our rights to suit you is manipulation and entitlement, privilegy.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What gives you the right to expect women to care about your personal demons? What gives you the right to frame women as somehow guilty of causing your distress? What makes your distress so urgent that women who don’t know you should perform emotional labor for you, and vote in your interest?

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am not telling you anything except that it's not sane in the slightest to think it's "mutilation" to have a normal healthy body. You shouldn't project conclusions born out of a severe mental illness onto the rest of the population, it gives you a distorted image of what a healthy mentality looks like.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

"Living as a woman" is pretty vague, since men & women can do all the same things. Pretty much anyone can pass that test. Just say you sit down to pee lol since that's the only difference I can think of.

I've heard of hormones alleviating dysphoria, but SRS (bottom surgery) often only exacerbates the problem. I've seen a study where suicide attempts & therapy visits increase after SRS (& I mean proper attempts, not self-reported, but recorded hospitalisations as a result of the failed attempt):

https://segm.org/ajp_correction_2020 – would not recommend.

People with BIID have positive outcomes after the offending limb is removed, yet that is still illegal in the West.

The only cure to dysphoria is desistance. It'd probably be difficult for anyone to get therapy that doesn't encourage transition nowadays though.

As far as I can tell, desistance happens naturally, except in rare cases where the person has an unresolved trauma or other mental health issue. Maybe going to therapy about something other than genital dysphoria might help you & others in your situation.

[–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

"Living as a woman" is pretty vague, since men & women can do all the same things

What they mean is calling yourself a woman and trying to pretend to be one in public.

The only cure to dysphoria is desistance. It'd probably be difficult for anyone to get therapy that doesn't encourage transition nowadays though.

I, uh... that's called "repression" and it doesn't work. Lots of us have tried it for years or even decades, and things didn't get better.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But the majority desist naturally, most of whom realise they were just gay all along. If you have no desire to be the opposite sex, isn't what you are experiencing more closely related to BIID? They've changed GID recently to a 'condition' called gender incongruence, meaning a strong desire to be the opposite sex &/or a strong dislike of one's own sex. It's not a pathology anymore.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How in the world did they manage to argue that severely debilitating anxiety and hatred of one's perfectly normal healthy body to the point of suicidal ideation isn't a pathology?

load more comments (1 reply)

    [–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

    As lots of you probably know, there's a "real life experience" requirement to get genital reconstructive surgery in the US, or hormones replacement therapy in the UK

    Do you have a source on that? I'm not as familiar with surgeries on natal males, but current procedure in the USA is "affirmation only" and people are able to get testosterone and mastectomies without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria or any sign of gender nonconformity, even as minors.

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Guidelines for bottom surgery in the US generally require at least a full year continuous living as your preferred gender and a letters from 2 mental health professionals as to your persistent dysphoria and need for surgery.

    Surgeons are almost always extremely strict about those requirements as they are part of the Wpath standard and therefore failing to require them could expose them to malpractice claims. Shit even the Thai surgeons require it.

    I can’t speak for the UK but that’s absolutely the standard in the US.

    [–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Thanks, circling. I appreciate the info. I'm glad they haven't gone "informed consent" for vaginoplasties the way they have for mastectomies.

    [–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

    Yeah, you're able to get an orchiectomy (testicle removal) without "real life experience", but getting GRS requires it.

    or any sign of gender nonconformity

    What does gender nonconformity have to do with it? I think judging people's eligibility for transition by how well they fit into gender roles is a bad idea and reinforces stereotypes.

    [–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Not every gender nonconforming person is trans (obviously), but until this past decade, nearly all trans people were extremely gender nonconforming in addition to showing signs of lifelong, severe sex and genital dysphoria.

    I did not know that about natal male surgeries. I'm glad surgeons are at least taking it seriously, given that the risks for vaginoplasty are even higher than for mastectomy.

    [–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    but until this past decade, nearly all trans people were extremely gender nonconforming in addition to showing signs of lifelong, severe sex and genital dysphoria.

    What do those 2 things have to do with each other? If people can be gender conforming without having severe sex dysphoria, why can't they do the reverse?

    [–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    It's a clinical sign of transsexuality and has been since transsexuality was first diagnosed.

    [–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I mean, that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? If you dismiss anyone who has dysphoria but isn't GNC as "ROGD" and not really trans, then yeah, you'll find that 100% of the people you consider to be transsexual are GNC. But at that point, you're twisting the data to fit into the categories you decided are "legitimate", not building your categories around the data.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    What does gender nonconformity have to do with it?

    If someone isn’t at all gender nonconforming, I feel like it’s kind of a red flag if they start feeling uncomfortable about their sex all of a sudden. Gender dysphoria presenting in puberty or adulthood may be happening for different reasons that someone who is nonconforming and dysphoric as a child. Many adults and teens will say they’ve had those feeling going back to childhood, but it rarely fits with how other people describe them. It seems silly to me to pretend like natural gender nonconformity and trans identity aren’t related at all.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Welcome! I’ll reply to your question later on, but I wanted to point at that terms like TIM/TIF are not allowed in this space. Please see the sidebar for our rules. Could you edit your post please?

    [–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    fixed, sorry.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    No worries. 😊

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

    It would certainly benefit trans women directly. And the archaic gatekeeping standards aren’t helping the advancement of removing gendered expectations generally. In that it eases treatment access and allows people a better chance to safely transition. Presenting without the benefits of hormones virtually guarantees not passing and not passing means danger.

    When a trans woman might be denied treatment because she didn’t wear makeup to a session, it sends a message and that’s absolutely a thing that happened regularly. It’s my understanding that is less the case than it used to be.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

    Genital Dysphoria is real and crippling. It’s also unresponsive to any other treatments. How can you justify being against the only effective treatment? You are essentially demanding people suffer when a cure exists.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    If. They. Can. Acknowledge. Reality. And agree to leave female spaces alone, I have no problem with a grown person having cosmetic surgery. I’m not gonna keep typing this.

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

    I’m amazed you have the tenacity and patience to bother with masks still. I’d rather eat a gallon of vomit.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I’m about to tap out lmao

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    No use putting your energy into chess when the other person is just throwing cards and gum on the board.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    But you still aren’t talking about “realities”. You demand people agree with you philosophically. Basically you require transphobia for trans surgeries which seems counterintuitive from a treatment standpoint.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I demand people acknowledge biological reality and agree to respect the boundaries and spaces of females. I’m literally talking about reality. It’s reality for 99% of the population. Reality is gender critical as fuck no matter how much you hate it.

    The rest is your opinion so I don’t care to address your accusations that you stretched so far to make. Everything is transphobic to you so I don’t care if you call me transphobic.

    [–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

    The only cure is desistance, transition doesn't cure gender dysphoria, SRS increases suicide attempts.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

    Srs does not increase suicide attempts.

    [–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    https://segm.org/ajp_correction_2020

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    It’s seems to say there is no difference between groups (which is admittedly sad), but it doesn’t say it increased attempts in a statistically significant way.

    [–]adungitit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    Saying that it increases them based on such a negligible uptick is pretty dishonest.

    [–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    It almost doubles.

    [–]adungitit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    So does going from 0,000000001% to 0,000000002%. Saying that negligible upticks have "doubled" is one of the oldest tricks in the book when it comes to misrepresenting statistics.

    [–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Are you joking? You're the one misrepresenting it when you call it negligible.You're just looking at a number that looks small to you, instead of the difference between both numbers. Suicide rates are normally not very high. Yes, 130 out of 10'000 is nearly double 70 out of 10'000. Why do you feel manipulated by accurate descriptions?

    Since 0,000000009% also looks small, does that mean suicide attempts could be 9x greater after surgery & you'd still call it too "negligible" to mention?

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    This in no way indicates an increase in suicide attempts following surgery.

    [–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    In no way? The graph shows a slight uptick post surgery.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    To me it also kind of indicates that it’s not as effective a treatment as they claim it to be.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

    So, there is a lot here. You talk at first about genital reconstruction (presumably SRS), but then later you talk about having them removed. I don’t think those are the same thing. If you are just super uncomfortable with your genitals and want them removed, maybe there are other options outside of SRS that would work for you. Maybe you could do those with less gatekeeping. I don’t know what country you are in or what the medical system is like. Do you want female like parts specifically? I just have difficulty understand why someone would if they didn’t expect to be in a different social role. It’s difficult to date men if you don’t have parts that match what they are expecting, but wanting a vulva/vagina in particular is a little confusing to me outside of that or like the specific things you can do. I don’t even like looking at mine (yes, I know, not really a vagina) and usually try not too.

    I support gatekeeping because fewer people will be getting these things and the people who do will have more realistic expectations about their lives. It’s hard for me to imagine that dysphoric males using female spaces is because of surgery requirements. So few trans people actually get surgery too.

    I don’t recommend any type of genital surgery to anyone because being sterile and having to take exogenous hormone for the rest of your life isn’t fun. If there is any other option, you should explore it. It’s not like you can’t come back later if it doesn’t work.

    I do feel like in the case of SRS or anything else, people should pay for it themselves. It’s not fair to others to ask them to support something like this when it isn’t medically necessarily from physical standpoint.

    [–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

    I just have difficulty understand why someone would if they didn’t expect to be in a different social role.

    You only understand having an extremely invasive surgery on your very sensitive organs for the sake of social approval?

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

    You only understand having an extremely invasive surgery on your very sensitive organs for the sake of social approval?

    Not like any surgery, but wanting female like parts. I remember feeling really uncomfortable about my boy parts as a young child and wanting them to fall off or go away, but that isn’t the same as needing a vagina. I didn’t even know what it was. If it wasn’t for sex, dating, expectations, etc. I would have been happy with something else too as long as my boy parts were gone. I’m sorry if that seems wrong, but I feel like it’s silly to pretend like the social doesn’t matter. It matters a lot.

    [–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    Ah, so you understand not having anything, but going out of your way to specifically imitate opposite sex genitalia would be done for the sake of external validation? That makes sense to me. It takes an additional step to go from not wanting something that you already have as a natural part of your body, to wanting something entirely different that you don't have and can't have, but that women do.

    [–]ntr4ctrAdult Male with gender dysphoria[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I mean honestly, there is no procedure to give someone "female parts", all they can do is cut a hole of varying depth. And honestly, I don't care what they replace it with. As long as the penis and testicles are gone and I can still go to the bathroom, I'll consider it a success. But I don't know of any hospitals that perform "just hack your genitals off when they don't present any kind of immediate medical danger" surgery, and I certainly doubt my insurance would cover it if they did. I want what's known as a zero-depth where they don't even bother making any kind of "hole", since it has a lower risk of complications and I don't think a surgical flesh wound would make me a "woman" anyways.

    I don’t recommend any type of genital surgery to anyone because being sterile and having to take exogenous hormone for the rest of your life isn’t fun.

    I've been on hrt for over 2 years now, and honestly, I like it a lot better. Testosterone just feels disgusting, and even if I'm still a man and always will be, never having to have it in my body again feels really nice.

    I do feel like in the case of SRS or anything else, people should pay for it themselves. It’s not fair to others to ask them to support something like this when it isn’t medically necessarily from physical standpoint.

    I don't really agree here. Medical insurance pays for anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications, even though there isn't any kind of physical health problem that needs to be treated. Transition care for trans patients leads to a marked decrease in rates of depression, so why shouldn't it be covered by medical insurance in the same way other depression treatments are?

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I mean honestly, there is no procedure to give someone "female parts", all they can do is cut a hole of varying depth.

    That’s why I made sure to say “female like parts”. It’s not the same thing, it’s just trying to mimic it. I feel like you may be simplifying a little though.

    I've been on hrt for over 2 years now, and honestly, I like it a lot better.

    2 years is a really short time when you look at your whole life. Life is long even though people say it’s not. If you have surgery, you removing your bodies ability to produce adequate hormones to maintain health. It shouldn’t be taken lightly.

    Transition care for trans patients leads to a marked decrease in rates of depression, so why shouldn't it be covered by medical insurance in the same way other depression treatments are?

    I don’t think other treatments for depression harm healthy bodies in the way that genital surgeries or mastectomies do. Plus, a lot of people disagree with it any I don’t think it’s fair or helps trans people gain acceptance to make them participate. I had to wait longer than I wanted so I could save money to pay for mine. I also feel like it might help with regret (which is significant).