GC: Are there specific alternative treatments to SRS and HRT that have proven effective for successfully treating the most severe forms of gender dysphoria or transsexualism?

submitted by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I don't experience diabetes and I'm not a professional

Diabetes and a mental illness are two entirely different things.

I was asking for hard evidence and specific evidence and examples in my original post.

How do you provide hard evidence when all non-affirming research dies before it can even get off the ground?

most transsexuals don't believe they are transitioning to anything, and they are not changing their sex, and they acknowledge their biology

If they acknowledged their biology, transitioning wouldn't work at all because they'd be aware of the fact that changing one's sex is impossible, and that they're not really doing a thing to change their sex.

I also wouldn't call a baseless belief in having a "female brain" (which I'm going to presume with 99% certainty that you also share because ofc) a healthy take.

and they suffer greatly

I suffer too when men tell me our oppression is just due to our feminine brains making us inferior.

Actual transsexuals want to blend in and not be noticed and indistinguishable from everyone else in society

The original laws and procedures were meant to help these people live a quiet, normal life

The problem with this is that you're essentially telling all the gender nonconforming people that they have opposite sex brains and that they should stop being the nail that sticks out and just assimilate into society quietly in the appropriate patriarchal role expected of them so they don't make a scene. No, I don't want to "live quietly as a proper meek woman" because I don't base satisfaction with gender roles based on how much our patriarchal society recognises my "female brain" and approves of it.

We're distinct from that group of people and their problems

Not any longer you're not.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

-"Diabetes and a mental illness are two entirely different things." Should the advice really change if diabetes was replaced with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder? I don't know that the semantics really mattered there, but thank you for pointing that out. -"How do you provide hard evidence when all non-affirming research dies before it can even get off the ground?" I guess everyone needs to keep pushing and advocating for research and funding research then if any studies of that nature are to be done. I'll certainly keep pushing for it, and I hope you might too. -"If they acknowledged their biology, transitioning wouldn't work at all because they'd be aware of the fact that changing one's sex is impossible, and that they're not really doing a thing to change their sex.

I also wouldn't call a baseless belief in having a "female brain" (which I'm going to presume with 99% certainty that you also share because ofc) a healthy take." I might be disagreeing with a lot of people here, but I understand that the sex isn't really being changed. Sexual organs and secondary characteristics may be altered, but I agree with you personally, no one really changes sex. I think that again part of the greater misunderstanding of transsexualism comes down to semantics. I recognize that my sex can't really change, yet I had to change my primary sex characteristics to relieve the distress. I'm also going to dissent by admitting I don't believe in such a thing as a "male" or "female" brain. -"I suffer too when men tell me our oppression is just due to our feminine brains making us inferior." I'm sorry that men do that to you and talk to you that way, that's infuriating. Our shared experiences of the feelings of suffering, though perhaps for different reasons, may hopefully facilitate greater empathy and compassion for one another. -"The problem with this is that you're essentially telling all the gender nonconforming people that they have opposite sex brains and that they should stop being the nail that sticks out and just assimilate into society quietly in the appropriate patriarchal role expected of them so they don't make a scene. No, I don't want to "live quietly as a proper meek woman" because I don't base satisfaction with gender roles based on how much our patriarchal society recognises my "female brain" and approves of it." There really seems to be quite an array of gender noncomformity expression and experiences, and I think they deserve to live a good life without having to assimilate if they don't want to. I think that's a positive of the development of the concept of transgenderism and the fact that the "transgender" spectrum now has high visibility in society and includes gender nonconforming people, normalizing gender nonconforming expression more. I don't think you or anyone should have to live any way you don't want to, as long as no one is being hurt. For me, I probably want to live a quiet, normal life more because I was harassed, teased and abused for most of it, I abused myself trying to do everything to cure my delusion so I wouldn't hate myself because I really wanted to be normal so badly; now my life isn't ruled by this condition anymore and I finally do have some peace. I hope that you're living the life you want to live, too. -"Not any longer you're not." The preceding sentence says 'I wish we weren't conflated with whatever and whoever it was that the people who are like that and do act like that are.' because I know that is how you and others see me, which is why I'm trying to make it clear that we aren't.

(sorry for the quote format, I haven't learned how to Saidit quite yet lol)

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't know that the semantics really mattered there, but thank you for pointing that out

It's the difference between saying that a person who was involved in a serious accident needs surgery, and that a person who thinks they weren't meant to have arms should get their arms amputated. One is an objective, physically defined problem with well-described and measurable biological mechanisms behind it. The other is guesswork about something that is supposed to make a severely mentally ill person "feel" better. Obviously, the latter is going to be more controversial and up for debate than the former. And if professionals know what's best for people psychologically, how come trans people have spent so much time complaining and arguing over these things when they didn't go in their favour? The second they pressure any change that oges in their favour, suddenly the professionals are all-knowing infallable gods, but until then, they know jack.

I recognize that my sex can't really change, yet I had to change my primary sex characteristics to relieve the distress

And if all this was about mentally ill people seeking body modifications, I would not care, or at least not care about it from a feminist standpoint. But that's not what's happening, is it? Women are being redefined to mean "a certain amount of estrogen", "passing", and "a feeling of having a certain type of brain" or even just "anyone using English she pronouns".

I'm sorry that men do that to you and talk to you that way, that's infuriating.

These men include men who insist they're women. The only women in my experience who will talk (or at least try to; I notice a staggering difference in how strongly and aggressively they believe in this) about women's collective ladybrains and biological inferiority are a small number married straight women parroting what their hubbies want to hear. With male trans people, it is almost universal, in fact it seems even more widespread than with regular men. Taking issue with it is called "invalidating" and "transphobic".

Our shared experiences of the feelings of suffering, though perhaps for different reasons, may hopefully facilitate greater empathy and compassion for one another.

Well the fact that these "different reasons" are called bigotry if they are pointed out, and men who claim womanhood on the basis of ladybrains are grouped with actual women who have suffered for centuries due to this thinking, that's the problem, no? Women don't need to "turn the other cheek" and "empathise with men more" and "make themselves seem less threatening"; women have had centuries of doing just that, and guess what? It didn't stop men from trampling all over them one bit, in fact it only made their lives worse.

"transgender" spectrum now has high visibility in society and includes gender nonconforming people, normalizing gender nonconforming expression more.

How is it normalising it when the people who don't walk the line get told they're mentally ill and that they should call themselves the opposite sex and get surgeries and hormones in order to "fit in" better? How is gender conformity normal when anyone who engages in it is told to hide their gender and fool people into thinking they're really the "proper" gender?

I hope that you're living the life you want to live, too.

Yeah, cute, here's the thing: as long as the patriarchy is alive and well, I and many other women are not going to be living the lives we want. Because we can't just change our pronouns or get an amputation and have all our gender problems be rendered meaningless because being the "proper" gender is so amazing and validating now. No, the constant belittlement and dehumanisation over being born female is something we have lived through all our lives and will continue living through, while the men who put on a pair of panties will prance around happy in the knowledge that they're "real gurls" now. And trans rights activists working directly against female rights and promoting men's misogyny all over again is dragging our quality of life and safety back decades. My main goal in life is not some religious performance of the "real gender identity" from my head; my goal is being treated as a human being.

The preceding sentence says 'I wish we weren't conflated with whatever and whoever it was that the people who are like that and do act like that are.' because I know that is how you and others see me, which is why I'm trying to make it clear that we aren't.

Reaping the benefits of a misogynistic movement, but shrugging shoulders and saying "not my problem" when the movement's misogyny gets called out is not enough to be treated as unbiased and not a part of the problem.

btw, if you want to quote something, use > at the start of the paragraph you're quoting (and press Enter twice to separate paragraphs, once isn't enough).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's the difference between saying that a person who was involved in a serious accident needs surgery, and that a person who thinks they weren't meant to have arms should get their arms amputated. One is an objective, physically defined problem with well-described and measurable biological mechanisms behind it. The other is guesswork about something that is supposed to make a severely mentally ill person "feel" better. Obviously, the latter is going to be more controversial and up for debate than the former. And if professionals know what's best for people psychologically, how come trans people have spent so much time complaining and arguing over these things when they didn't go in their favour? The second they pressure any change that oges in their favour, suddenly the professionals are all-knowing infallable gods, but until then, they know jack.

Even then, I'm not a psychology professional, so I feel I have no business giving clinical advice involving professional treatment. It appears that you are choosing to ignore that there is any established treatment for transsexualism that has any legitimacy. You are also generalizing trans peoples' beliefs and interactions with psychology and/or medical professionals.

And if all this was about mentally ill people seeking body modifications, I would not care, or at least not care about it from a feminist standpoint. But that's not what's happening, is it? Women are being redefined to mean "a certain amount of estrogen", "passing", and "a feeling of having a certain type of brain" or even just "anyone using English she pronouns".

I can understand your lack of understanding, and your generalization of all trans people by conflating trans rights activists, non-trans people who call themselves trans, and actual trans people. I would be upset too from this point of view.

These men include men who insist they're women. The only women in my experience who will talk (or at least try to; I notice a staggering difference in how strongly and aggressively they believe in this) about women's collective ladybrains and biological inferiority are a small number married straight women parroting what their hubbies want to hear. With male trans people, it is almost universal, in fact it seems even more widespread than with regular men. Taking issue with it is called "invalidating" and "transphobic".

You are generalizing all trans people of having the same beliefs and behaviors, and again it appears you are conflating trans rights activists, non-trans people who say they are trans, and actual trans people. You're also still generalizing all trans people believe they have a gendered or sexually dimorphic brain, which isn't true--I already said I don't believe that, but you are still generalizing and speaking as though all trans people believe this. You're right, many do, but not all.

the fact that these "different reasons" are called bigotry if they are pointed out, and men who claim womanhood on the basis of ladybrains are grouped with actual women who have suffered for centuries due to this thinking, that's the problem, no? Women don't need to "turn the other cheek" and "empathise with men more" and "make themselves seem less threatening"; women have had centuries of doing just that, and guess what? It didn't stop men from trampling all over them one bit, in fact it only made their lives worse.

Obviously no one has to empathize with anyone if they don't want to, or can't for whatever reason. It would be nice if we all could, but you make good points about why it might not be possible for some.

How is it normalising it when the people who don't walk the line get told they're mentally ill and that they should call themselves the opposite sex and get surgeries and hormones in order to "fit in" better? How is gender conformity normal when anyone who engages in it is told to hide their gender and fool people into thinking they're really the "proper" gender?

Gender nonconformity is more accepted socially now than it ever has, at least in the West. And the solution to gender nonconformity alone isn't transsexual medical intervention; a lot of people recognize this and why there is such back-and-forth between transmedicalists and everyone else in the trans community who insist that one does not need dysphoria to be trans. And that's where conflation between trans people and people who would never have been considered trans or offered transsexualism treatment before, but now are, is happening. The vast majority of people who express gender nonconforming behavior aren't transsexual and shouldn't be treated as though they are. I agree. So that's kind of what the "transmedical vs tucute" fight is really about, because most trans rights activists would be considered "tucute" and not transgender by traditional definitions, thus why they push for laws and treatement that demedicalizes transgenderism or gender dysphoria: because these are people who simply are gender nonconforming and don't want transition-related treatment or don't believe in transitioned-related treatment. The TRAs are mostly the ones pushing for normalization of gender nonconformity, that is, gender nonconformists who don't want transgender treatment but still want to be considered or called transgender or trans.

Yeah, cute, here's the thing: as long as the patriarchy is alive and well, I and many other women are not going to be living the lives we want. Because we can't just change our pronouns or get an amputation and have all our gender problems be rendered meaningless because being the "proper" gender is so amazing and validating now. No, the constant belittlement and dehumanisation over being born female is something we have lived through all our lives and will continue living through, while the men who put on a pair of panties will prance around happy in the knowledge that they're "real gurls" now. And trans rights activists working directly against female rights and promoting men's misogyny all over again is dragging our quality of life and safety back decades. My main goal in life is not some religious performance of the "real gender identity" from my head; my goal is being treated as a human being.

I'm sorry you experience that, and though I will obviously never experience life as a natal woman, I can see how that would be insulting and infuriating from your explanation. I'm on your side and keep wanting to make a better world for women, even if you don't believe me or if think every trans person is as you've described.

Reaping the benefits of a misogynistic movement, but shrugging shoulders and saying "not my problem" when the movement's misogyny gets called out is not enough to be treated as unbiased and not a part of the problem.

It wouldn't be, I agree. That's why I started that other thread in this sub looking for people to join a group of us trans people and GC people who are working together to solve those kinds of problems. If you're interested to know more, feel free to DM me!

And thank you for the formatting tips, much appreciated!

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Psychology isn't even close to being hard science. You are evoking their authority when they're some of the most fickle and guessworky sciences around.

It appears that you are choosing to ignore that there is any established treatment for transsexualism that has any legitimacy.

I don't think it's really treatment to have to get plastic surgeries and a lifetime of reliance on artificially inducing a hormone imbalance because the person literally destroyed their body's perfectly healthy way of creating the hormones that they need to function due to a baseless belief in being born in the wrong body or having the "wrong brain". Not only is sex change impossible to achieve, but what passes for it also doesn't seem to fix the mental illness: the person still gets triggered when they're reminded of reality and their lives continue to be defined by a desperate need to escape said reality, resulting in various negative psychological effects if society still doesn't play along with it, the surgeries and hormones just make it easier to fool people into believing what is not true. To me, that doesn't seem as effective treatment. I can believe it for those trans people who feel better afterwards without the need to still police everyone else and demand they play along with what they tell them. But that is an absolutely negligible minority and far outnumbered by others.

You are also generalizing trans peoples' beliefs and interactions with psychology and/or medical professionals.

When the same group that's been aggressively campaigning against this psychologist consensus that you're putting on a pedastal has the gall to evoke the same psychologists as infallable and an authority that should be listened to with no question, then I will call it out for the hypocrisy it is. It seems that when trans people's predictable and hypocritical behaviour gets pointed out, you just resort to "Well, you're generalising" and that's the kind of logic that has dragged women down for centuries. Liberals cannot think about discrimination beyond "It's bad to generalise!", which then results in gems such as treating men like the real victims of oppression because women don't feel safe around them (because ofc they don't when men actively prey on them and dehumanise them on a daily basis) and treating sexed spaces that serve to protect a persecuted group and give it a semblance of a normal life must be akin to racial segregation.

your generalization of all trans people by conflating trans rights activists, non-trans people who call themselves trans, and actual trans people

When they're all treated as trans and equally valid, and the "good trans people" are nowhere to be found (and the ones that proclaim themseles good regularly start vomiting ladybrain theories right after), I'm not gonna lose any sleep over telling it how it is. Moreover, the only male trans people who I have seen who haven't been misogynistic have been in GC spaces.

You are generalizing all trans people of having the same beliefs and behaviors

Right, #NotAllMen. We wouldn't want to generalise and do something about our oppression, just let people walk all over your rights if there's at least 1 person who is (or claims to be) different. As long as there is even one example of "the good one", widespread systemic oppression isn't happening and shouldn't be pointed out or fought against because then you're "generalising" and as such you're no different than the people actually performing this oppression. If 90% of houses are burning down, don't organise a firefighting squad because the 10% of houses prove there is no fire hazard!

You're also still generalizing all trans people believe they have a gendered or sexually dimorphic brain

I said there's a 99% of chance in your case, I am still not convinced because I have had countless men tell me "it's not like that" and then proceed to clarify their position and, oh, would you look at that, it's exactly like that. Again, same thing as MRAs and racists saying "Everyone should be treated equally!" and then once you do some prodding, whoops, a whole bunch of biosupremacy starts breaking out in hives and it turns out that no amount of virtue signalling affects that.

but you are still generalizing and speaking as though all trans people believe this. You're right, many do, but not all.

A belief in ladybrains is present in all male-dominated communities, and male trans communities are no exception, the only difference is that this time, women can't call it out for the misogyny that it is because that'd be "invalidating" and "transphobic". But I never said all trans people believe this: the more liberal feminist brand that is dominated by women (Tumblr feminism) tends to favour the "words mean wuteva u want hon :3" route. While ladybrains are more just classic male misogyny, "words mean wuteva u want hon :3" is the liberal brand of misogyny that appeals to women's training to make their cause sound better to men by doing the whole "everyone should be equal!" act and pinning the blame for male oppression of women onto "everyone!", because we should all stop hating each other and then men would, presumably, stop oppressing women (the fact that women have been forced into a bootlicking position by their oppressors throughout history doesn't enter the picture).

you make good points about why it might not be possible for some.

Yeah, I wonder why telling oppressed groups to just "empathise with" and "stop hating" their oppressors after centuries of doing just that and still being treated as cattle is bad advice.

the solution to gender nonconformity alone isn't transsexual medical intervention

And yet, gender nonconformity is stated as a symptom of transsexualism by your infallible psychologist community.

So that's kind of what the "transmedical vs tucute" fight is really about

I know, and you know what else I noticed? Transmedicalists are almost always the "ladybrained ones", they just don't like the idea of "woman" being expanded to the point of meaninglessness because it gets in the way of their own gender validation. They tend to be aggressively gender-conformist and look down on tucutes for "not even trying" to perform the proper gender stereotypes. At the end of the day, just like tucutes, they want to uphold the backwards patriarchal hierarchy of gender because that is validating to them. Tucutes want to uphold it so they can feel like the specialests uniquest of snoflakes the second they change their pronouns or wear pink for a day, and transmedicalists want "woman" to mean fake breasts, ladybrains, and a ton of makeup on your face, because then you can aim at *something" at least. ofc all of these communities function by misogynistic af standards, the only difference is that liberals think themselves morally superior because they oh so kindly tolerate "exceptions" to the proper patriarchal order.

I'm on your side and keep wanting to make a better world for women, even if you don't believe me or if think every trans person is as you've described.

If I had a nickel for every male trans person who's told me they're "not misogynistic" while advocating misogyny...Well, I'd have the same mountain of nickels I would have if I received one for every "not misogynistic" man who didn't claim to be trans. Funny how consistent this behaviour is between the two groups.