all 50 comments

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 9 fun14 insightful - 8 fun15 insightful - 9 fun -  (1 child)

Obviously just ask any TW we notice if they loved the color pink growing up. Remember, TW are indistinguishable from women, so we can’t rely on our eyes, we have to make sure they played with barbies growing up and that they like when skirt goes twirl.

And safeguarding or third spaces invalidates TW, so we have to set any silly concerns like harassment, attack, privacy, or discomfort aside. Above all else, we have to affirm TW and make sure they have whatever they demand (duh).

They just want to pee. If a TW makes you uncomfortable, it’s because they’re still learning how to woman, even though their gender identity means they intrinsically always knew how to woman. Now, if a “transwoman” assaults you, then they aren’t really trans.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like, I really really hope that there’s some other justification provided by qt, even if it’s well-meant nonsense. It would just feel better imo to know they think some benign garbage and not in the insidious march against women’s rights.

At least a well meaning misguided belief can be changed. Misogyny just sticks around and grows like tumours.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t think there is a way to tell unless you know a person. I learned long ago to keep my guard up around all male people. Being trans doesn’t make someone safe. I feel like sometimes they can be more dangerous to you because you may not take the threat as seriously. This happened with me when I first was in trans spaces.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolutely, you gotta know the person and even then a little bit of precaution is wise.

It seems incredibly unfair and dismissive of women to be told our fears are unfounded and mean, and that we should be happy with having a slim chance of prosecuting an attacker after they have already hurt us.

I don’t want to put transgender people in the same situation women are facing, but the solution of a third space is often rejected by qt. It’s like nothing other than bowing down is acceptable.

It’s awful that you were endangered or harmed, having that be waved away as if the perpetrator is somehow incapable of causing any harm is a lot of salt in the wound. You should have been believed.

[–]censorshipment 8 insightful - 10 fun8 insightful - 9 fun9 insightful - 10 fun -  (5 children)

Trust them all. If one harms you, remember "not all trans women" or else you're transphobic... literally phobic of trans women.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is the sentiment I’ve gotten from a qt user here as well as a number of transgender posters. I believe the majority of tra appeals to niceness with zero thought about how niceness is taken advantage of.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Majority of men are safe too, yet we still need safeguarding from any men - because there no way to tell what man is dangerous and what man is not. And this safeguarding is helping to decrease violence against women and rape cases by at least 900% for rape cases and 1500% for violence. This also decreased amount of women and girls skipping school, classes or work, because of feeling uncomfortable or having menstruation to almost zero.

So it should be same case here - because of increased amount of predators who are abusing laws about transgenders - none should be allowed in safe spaces segregated by sex. And they should have their own safe spaces (and, actually, often there are transgender-only safe spaces, like rape shelters or organizations, while for women it is not allowed for some reason).

[–]kwallio 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

zero thought

I'm getting the impression that they just don't care.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Can’t deny I’ve seen a lot of dismissal and hand-waving of any and all concerns women have about the issues.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 12 insightful - 7 fun12 insightful - 6 fun13 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

If one harms you, remember "not all trans women"

Don' t be ridicoulous, trans women are harmless, dainty kittens, they would NEVER hurt anyone. If a man who identifies as a woman harms you, then he' s a man, not a trans woman.

You' re right that we should trust them all as a basis, if one of them turns out to be an abusive piece of shit, then he wasn' t in the community and we shouldn' t make any connection between them besides recognizing that he was appropriating trans experiences and that he is a nazi. And, more importantly, we should absolutely not wonder why the fuck he was allowed in a place like a women' s prison, or a women' s locker room or a women' s rape relief shelter to begin with! /s

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

GC, I’m curious about something.

...are you suggesting we assume the best of all males in the ladies locker room all the time unless we are being actively harassed? Is there a solution that does not involve putting safeguarding? Are third spaces acceptable?

OP, you've addressed your questions to "GC" when they seem really for the "QT." Or is there something I'm missing?

Sorry if I've misunderstood.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ahhhh I’m dumb! Edited it to qt, thanks for letting me know!

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I didn't mean to suggest you are dumb. Which you are NOT. We all make typos and transpositions. I simply thought I might be missing something.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh gods no, you’re not the type to go calling anyone dumb, I just gotta start paying attention instead of typing with embroidery in hand lol.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

How are women meant to tell the difference between a genuine transgender person who just wants to pee, from someone like Alok or Yaniv, at a glance.

Is this possible? Is there a visual indicator we’re all missing?

You likely can't. The best visual indicator would maybe be a lack of a visual indicator, if that makes sense, but that's still making an assumption and taking a risk.

If there is no such visual indicator, are you suggesting we assume the best of all males in the ladies locker room all the time unless we are being actively harassed? Is there a solution that does not involve putting safeguarding? Are third spaces acceptable?

That's a fanciful idea, but not a very safe one. Third spaces are probably the easiest safeguard for everyone. The request to have you just ignore any potential problems or danger or need for privacy is wildly unfair.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Third spaces seem like the ideal solution. Safeguarding for women is still in place, transgender women are free to avoid the distress and dangers of the men’s room. Everyone wins.

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (31 children)

The only indicator I can think of is how well passing they are. Its not perfect but I think it works for bathrooms. That's kinda how it works now, isn't it? If someone is passing well enough no one really minds. Locker rooms are a different story tho, the bar is much higher for locker rooms imo.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

But who decides who is "passing"? And based on what criteria? Seems to me that the people doing the deciding are almost always trans-identified males themselves, male homophobes and genderists of both sexes - and that the criteria that's used to decide which males "pass" are always incredibly sexist, superficial, regressive and misogynistic.

If someone is passing well enough no one really minds.

Who do you mean when you say "no one minds"? On what basis have you arrived at the conclusion that "no one minds"? Surveys? Interviews? Polls? Has there been a vote that I missed?

Who exactly has been surveyed and interviewed to find out that "no one minds" when males use women's loos? Is it mostly men saying this or mostly women? And how diverse and "inclusive" is the population that's been surveyed and interviewed about this? Does it include orthodox Jewish women? Muslim women? Muslim women who wear hijabs or other kinds of veiling? Muslim men? Boys and men of other faiths worried about their mothers, grans, sisters, partners and daughters? Women and girls who are survivors of sexual assault? Parents of pre-teen and teenage daughters who'll have to share toilets with males at a time in life when the girls are feeling self-conscious about their bodies, and uncomfortable about dealing with their periods in shared toilets? Women who are or have been pregnant? Women who've had miscarriages in women's rooms at work or in public? Any girls & women who have heavy periods, fibroid bleeding or menopausal flooding and thus might need not just to wash blood off their hands (and moon cups) at the sink, but also might need to remove garments like their skirts, dresses and trousers to wash blood stains off them too? Any breastfeeding women who might have to remove their blouses at the sink to remove stains from leaked milk? Any elderly or very frail, slow women with impairments that fall short of disabilities but still make them very vulnerable? Any behavioral scientists, detectives, social workers, sexologists whose specialty is male sex crimes? Or whose speciality is male paraphilias like AGP, voyeurism, menstrual fetishes, listening to girls & women urinate, masturbating in public settings?

When surveying, polling, interviewing people to determine that "no one really minds" if males who identify as trans use women's communal toilets so long as those males think they "pass" as the opposite sex, have the respondents all been informed that 95% of "tranwomen" keep their dicks? And that the vast majority are sexually attracted to females? Have the respondents been told that there's absolutely no evidence that males who identify as the opposite sex, and alter their appearance to try to "pass," are less likely to be sex predators than other males - in fact, evidence from the UK's Ministry of Justice suggests males who identify as trans are more likely to be sex criminals? Do the respondents also know that males who identify as the opposite sex, and take CSH and testosterone blockers, retain virtually all the physical advantages that males typically have over females - such as much greater strength, speed, muscle mass, size/stature, bone density, grip strength, hand size, punching power, choking power? Do the respondents to all the surveys and studies that show "no one minds" know that a main reason that many males today identify as trans is because it's sexually arousing to them, that "gender euphoria" is code for a massive "girl dick" boner? Do they know that many TRAs brag that what's caused them to go trans is "sissy porn"?

I don't mean to be giving you such a hard time. And I know I'm coming off as an asshole here. But honestly, I think the claim that "no one minds" is fiction. Most of society has never been given a chance even to discuss this massive social change & its implications, much less to say whether we mind or not.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I have to wonder what exactly were supposed to do. If we voice concerns we’re terrible violent abusive terf wenches and if we don’t voice them, that silence is taken as acceptance and support.

There is absolutely no way for a woman to communicate freely and without having words put on our mouths.

[–]AlexisK 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

It is always this way.

With Domestic Violence - if husband murders wife, everyone saying "why she stayed if it was that bad?". And if she is leaving - everyone saying "why she left and ruined family, she should try to fix it and change his mind".

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And if she is leaving

If she is raising concerns, then people are saying that she is exaggerating and being pesky or picky.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You raise an excellent point there. Lots of family annihilators and murderers of wives/girlfriends are talked about in media( especially social media) like they’re noble guys pushed too far into some inevitable rage. The blame is directed to the women in his life and how they must have failed him, causing his violence. Never seen an article that didn’t include what a great guy people thought he was.

Then the same dudes say women who kill are treated too lightly ignoring that women who kill are a thousand times rarer, and tend to be women with post partum psychosis killing infants whilst delusional, not accidentally beating husbands to death.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The blame is directed to the women in his life and how they must have failed him

I saw this many times in news reports - either wife was not supporting him, or his mother was not good at raising "a good kid".

ignoring that women who kill are a thousand times rarer

And that out of those very rare murders by women - 3/4 of their victims are other females, with majority of victims being much younger than murderer. And only in 1/16 of all cases they are murdering a grown up man, in at least half of cases of cases in self defense, and rest are often done in group (majority of violence done by women is done in pairing with a man).

not accidentally beating husbands to death.

accidentally

You are referring to that recent murder which was set as manslaughter, because "man was stressed because of COVID" (and why no one thinks that woman maybe was stressed too?) and then he "slipped" by strangling his wife, when she break out of being strangled and tried to run from house, he reached her again and strangled second time, this time to death, and she died putting key into keyhole. You don't "accidentally" strangling your wife multiple times, folowing her from second floor to first.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Oh wow I hadn’t even heard of that story you mentioned! I’ve just read a lot of other pieces saying basically, yeah, guy was really stressed/sad and his mean awful nagging wife pushed him to kill her/her and the kids.

It’s like she’s responsible for every bad feeling the guy ever felt in his life and his murderous rage was an understandable outburst. Something is seriously wrong with a lot of people to treat killing ones own family as understandable in any context.

It’s unreal how men will rush to mention how occasionally women murder too, when the sheer difference in numbers is staggering. To hear guys talk about it, every one of them has been savagely beaten and emotionally abused for prolonged periods of time by a woman in their life.

It’s such a common theme, especially in Australia. As a culture australia assumes the woman invites violence by “being a bitch” 🙄.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Judge said that man "just slipped and was stressed". While that man started strangling wife, then she run away and he continued. It can't be "accidentally".

https://archive.is/aspIG

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/18/anthony-williams-killed-wife-act-of-great-violence-jailed-for-five-years

It is not the single case, by the way:

"Hand must have slipped so he strangled her accidentally" - how can you "strangle for few minutes" accidentally? Such a bullshit.

https://archive.is/MtcsJ

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-56454792

To hear guys talk about it, every one of them has been savagely beaten and emotionally abused for prolonged periods of time by a woman in their life.

Just recently someone was talking about it in this sub. That men and women have such different standarts and measured by them differently. "Nagging for sex" by a wife is written as sexual assault against men, but "men demanding sex from wife as part of 'marriage duty'" is not written as sexual assault against women.

Edit:

Found it: /s/GCdebatesQT/comments/7ryb/_/t7cn

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It’s so awful that even a judge is calling choking a woman to death an accident. It’s not quick, it’s very deliberate. It’s also not an accident to roll the thumbs over the trachea, crushing it further. I suspect these men absolutely rolled their thumbs intending to kill.

That difference is so weird. Like, nagging for sex is raping men but telling a woman it’s her purpose as a wife to have sex when she doesn’t want to isnt raping her?! Wtf. It’s designed to make women look more predatory than they are.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It’s designed to make women look more predatory than they are.

They need to support their "women are doing it too" somehow. Statistics are against them if they are taking same measurements, so they are cheating by measuring women and men with different standarts.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But honestly, I think the claim that "no one minds" is fiction. Most of society has never been given a chance even to discuss this massive social change & its implications, much less to say whether we mind or not.

Yeah, I think the reason "it never was a problem before" is because most women didn't know about this. Now with the increasing numbers of trans identified people -who have also became bolder- and the widespread use of internet women are now more aware and talking back.

[–]FlanJam 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I'll correct myself, people I know and speak to don't really mind, whom are mostly centrists not QT extremists. But yes, you did make some good points I didn't think about. Religious women, breast feeding women, etc need a male-free space. Would be interesting to see a poll on how many women would be okay with transwomen or not.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

If someone is passing well enough no one really minds.

It' s not that people don' t mind, it' s that people don' t know. They don' t have the chance to decide whether they mind or not because they don' t know what is happening.

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

That's true. Would be interesting to see a poll of how many women would be okay with tranwomen in bathrooms, passing or nonpassing. My guess is more women would be okay with passing transwomen than nonpassing. I wonder how many would say no transwomen at all tho.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I wonder how many would say no transwomen at all tho.

That will depend on personal experience. Most women would say "I will be fine" just to look nice. We are expected to "be nice and put our feelings away".

However, in the anonymous survey in the UK few years ago, when question was "are you fine with transwomen in women's bathrooms", a bit more than half of women answered "yes", however, when question was the same but "without surgery and with penis intact" amount of women who answered "yes" was less than 10%. And when question was same but transwoman was not passing, "yes" was around 15-20%. So looks like questions themselves means a lot.

This means that in most cases, in general population, most people are assuming that transwomen are all passing, after surgery and are homosexual (they are attracted to men). This means they do not realizing that now any manly man can be transwoman, all they need is just say "I feel like a woman every sunday", that almost all of transwomen have no surgeries and that majority of transwomen are heterosexual and attracted to women.

[–]FlanJam 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

That's true, most people aren't really aware of the issues and what QT actually looks like today.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Could you share a link to that survey?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I had it on my Twitter in Bookmarks, but seems like account who linked it was banned.

Those were UK surveys, there were few of them. Some of them are often linked by gender activists as proof that women are fine with transwomen in toilets, without going into details (and when going into details we are seeing that it is not true).

There were few surveys linked, I just now checked through internet, but found only one of them.

This survey is very biased, because it was sponsored by PinkNews. And even while being strongly biased towards Transgender people and population being asked more supportive, it still shows that even there many are "Woke on public, TERF at home":

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/ai3h3xvf7o/Transgender%20data%202020.pdf

Here drop is not that huge - for transwomen with surgery 42-46% for "should be using women's toilets and changing rooms", but when "have no surgery" - drops to 26-31%. Also, more poor economically people (ones who more likely to use public facilities) seems to be around 8-12% less supportive of this, while middle-high class people (who most likely would never use public facilities) seems to be more willing to put transwomen into women's bathrooms. And majority of people who are fine with putting transwomen into women's toilets are 18-24 years old.

In general in all cases majority are not supporting this.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you. Very interesting.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is so sad that so many feminists and lesbians are being banned from most big social media platforms.

I think I've lost too many great threads because of it. I would like to find all surveys and researches were there in comments too, but seems it is lost forever now and I can't find it by searching in search engine, looks like I need to know exactly what I am searching to find it.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

So a passing transwoman cannot be a danger to women? What about passing prevents sexual predation or violence specifically?

Does this mean that there is a correlation between crime and being unable to afford FFS amongst transwomen?

[–]FlanJam 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Well no, its not a perfect indicator. But if a transwoman went thru all the hormones and surgery, I think they're more likely to be genuinely trans and not someone abusing self-id. They could still be a predator of course. I'm just saying passing is the only indicator I can think of that is a tiny bit viable.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

So really, there’s zero way to tell a transwoman apart from a man there to plant a camera or something else heinous

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

There's no way to tell for sure, I agree.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You keep saying for sure, as if there’s a method that’s reliable enough. Is that method passing?

Cause passing is subjective and frankly a lot of transgendered people seem to take not being outright called out as trans as passing. What if someone passes to you but not me? Are they safer for you than me then? I really don’t see how passing is any indicator a male is sage to be around.

‘It sounds unlikely that someone would do that’ isn’t really convincing imo.

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

My point is: passing partially works. It can keep out self-id abusers and trendy queers. It can not account for trans predators. So no, its not an ideal indicator and I'm not advocating for it as policy. I personally wouldn't care about sharing bathrooms with passing trans people, but I realize a lot of women do care and have good reason to. Hope that clears things up.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Ok so you were only speaking for yourself and not actually answering my question? Cool. It’s really no clearer without clarifying the parts I asked about that confused me.

Passing doesn’t work at all logically but you’re free to believe it does, of course.

In regards to my actual question, you’re saying there’s no way but passing works well enough? That’s an interesting take. Thanks for responding.

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I wasn't trying to give a definitive answer, I was just putting my thoughts out there. Sorry, I guess I didn't understand your question. Have a nice day.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

I mean I have to assume that the cis women in there don’t want to murder/sexually assault people like me, so yeah seems fair.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Really? I could swear it was "cis" men who murdered and assaulted "trans women". If women are so dangerous, why do you all want to come to our spaces? Wouldn't it be better for you to campaign for third spaces instead?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Because those are our spaces as well, and because it makes transphobes angry