all 12 comments

[–]MarkTwainiac 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think there are several questions here:

1)Why is it that women are the only ones constantly demeaned by woke misogynistic neologisms that reduce us to our body parts and processes like menstruators, bleeders, uterus havers, vagina owners, gestators, carriers, surrogates?

2) Why is it acceptable nowadays to use language and social practices that remind trans-identified females and the world that trans-identified females are, in fact, female, but it's not okay to actually call them female?

3) Why, at the same time, is it now considered rude, beyond the pale, unspeakably "cruel" and a "hate crime" to say or do anything at all ever to bring attention to the fact that trans-identified males are male?

4) Why when it's considered impertinent, boorish, hateful and an act of violence for women even to hint that trans-identified males are male nowadays is it seen as perfectly okay for them to constantly bring attention to their maleness by telling women to suck and choke on their dicks, threatening us with rape, calling us cxnts and bxtches and other misogynistic slurs, telling us our role in life is to be sexually used, abused & enslaved by men, and publicly waxing lyrical about their sick, fetishistic sex fantasies about "femininity" and their own fictitious "female" personas that are clearly the product of imaginations that are decidedly male (and twisted)?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)


That’s kind of the whole answer. Just... misogyny.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish?[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'd love to hear QT answers to those questions too, thought.

I think you may be right:

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Then title your thread as "QT: What is it with grouping"

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish?[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, I asked everyone, but only GC are answering so far.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So I feel like there is a lot here. I’ll try to give my best guess on the terms.

  1. Sexism is important I feel like. Women are expected to compromise in ways men are not. I feel like that’s a big part why women are expected to change terms about their bodies to be inclusive of transmen and not non-woman-identified female people in a way that men are not expected to for transwomen and non-man-identified male people. So many things with male and females make sense when you think about sexism and misogyny.

  2. Also, there isn’t something totally like OB-GYNs for males. Urologists exists, but men don’t usually need to see them as often I don’t think. I asked my 39 year old husband about it and he has never seen urologist at all in those years. I think you go if something is wrong. I think if male people had to see those doctors more, there might be pressure from transwomen to change the language. Also, once a transwoman has fully transitioned (with bottom surgery), there isn’t much a urologist would really be trained to do I don’t think and even if they were trained I don’t know what it would be for. I’ve been told that prostate cancer risk post-op is super low because it is super tiny and doesn’t receive any male hormones. I don’t know all of what urologists do, so if anyone knows something I am not thinking of please let me know.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Urology and obstetrics and gynecology are not analogous or corresponding specialties.

Every human urinates and has urinary anatomy, but the urinary anatomy of the two sexes is different. Most urologists treat patients of both sexes for a host of reasons.

In human males, the urethra is part of the male reproductive tract; males ejaculate semen and pee through the same tube and out the same hole in the penis. But in human females the urethra is not part of the reproductive tract. The human female urethra and urinary system is entirely separate to the female reproductive system. Girls and women do not pee out of our vaginas the way boys and men pee out of their penises. The female urethral opening is adjacent to the vaginal opening, and both are parts of the vulva, but the vagina and the female "pee hole" are two distinct things.

Gynecologists do treat UTIs, as do GPs, pediatricians, internists, infectious disease doctors, nurse practitioners, walk-in clinics, telemedicine providers & medical services you can access entirely online simply by filling out a form & paying a fee. But the medical specialty of gynecologists is the female reproductive system, and female health and wellness care related to girls' and women's reproductive biology and processes. When a girl or woman has recurrent or complicated UTIs, a gynecologist will refer her to a urologist.

Not all gynecologists are OBs, though many are. Obstetrics focuses on female reproduction specifically - preparing for pregnancy, getting pregnant, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding. All women need gynecological care at points in our lives, but only some of us need obstetrics care.

There is no medical field for males completely analogous to gynecology & obstetrics because the male role in human reproduction is tiny and far less involved and complicated than the female role. Males don't ovulate, menstruate, have PMS/PMDD or menstrual cramps, conceive, get pregnant, go through treatments to stimulate egg production, experience IVF or IUI, go through pregnancy, need fetal screening, get pre-eclampsia, undergo labor, give birth vaginally or via C section, get episiotomies, get childbirth injuries, lactate, breastfeed, get mastitis from BFing, miscarry, have need of abortion, take hormonal contraceptives, use IUDs, require cervical cancer screenings, get ovarian or uterine cancer, etc - nor do males have the worries, problems, complications, issues that go along with all that. Males don't have monthly hormonal cycles like females do. Males don't go through a male menopause. There's a vast array of female-specific medical problems that only female people can experience for which there are no male analogues - or even anything that comes at all close.

But males do have issues that are unique to male reproductive anatomy, and there are indeed medical specialties for them such as proctologists and andrologists. Males who have issues with their prostates and other seminal vesicles, penises, foreskins, testicles, testosterone levels, sperm quality & count, libido, ability to get and maintain erections and so on will have no trouble finding specialists to treat them. Males are hardly underserved medically. Every problem that can affect male sexual function and fertility has been well researched and funded, and multiple treatment options have been developed.

once a transwoman has fully transitioned (with bottom surgery), there isn’t much a urologist would really be trained to do I don’t think and even if they were trained I don’t know what it would be for.

The assumption amongst the trans community and the medical community as well is that gynecologists should have to expand their skill sets to be the ones to care for males who've chosen to alter their genitals. For a whole bunch of reasons, I think this is wrong, unfair, abusive of gynecologists themselves (the majority of whom happen to be women) and will only take time, money and research interest away from female health issues and direct them to the medical issues of trans-identified males. To my mind, it's another part of the larger project whereby males are using "gender identity" claims to colonize female spaces, services and resources, assert male dominance and maintain male supremacy.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for explaining! I had never heard of andrologists before.

The assumption amongst the trans community and the medical community as well is that gynecologists should have to expand their skill sets to be the ones to care for males who've chosen to alter their genitals.

I feel like this is true and really worrying. I don’t think it should fall on gynecologists necessarily, but that seems to be the way the medical community has handled it (and the trans community has supported it too). If you call a doctor with an issue, that is where they will tell you to go. Even putting aside all the trans stuff aside, those visits are just unpleasant. Some trans males being validated by it is disturbing. Fortunately, I feel like with good personal hygiene you can stay healthy and free from issues without regular visits, but I wish there were another choice where there wasn’t any worry about imposing on anyone (my OB-GYN and I have known each other a long time at least, but being around more GC ideas for the last few years made me more uncomfortable about the whole thing). I know you probably think I’m an awful person and I’m sorry for that.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, I don't think that at all! You strike me as a very nice, intelligent, kind, considerate, decent, searching young person with a good moral compass trying to figure out your life and to do what's right not just for yourself and your partner, but for the larger community. None of the social climate we're in today is your doing or your fault. I think you show enormous grace and good-nature by being here - and serving as a moderator - in the first place. I am flattered that you read what I and other women have to say and are taking it all in. It can't be easy for you. I do not envy your position.

I was thinking earlier today how great it would be if we could rewind the clock back to the era when Breakfast on Pluto took place, when the idea that transsexualism was a reasonable accommodation for a tiny sliver of the population was becoming more and more accepted - long before the situation of individuals like you was seized upon & used as an excuse/cover by a bunch of misogynists to mount a full-scale assault on girls/women and our hard-won rights in the name of "progressivism" and "inclusivity" and "equality."

Please be kind to yourself. We are all trying to the best we can with the hand life has dealt us.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry I assumed that about you! Happy to be wrong. :) Thank you so much for the kind words! You are so sweet and generous. You seem like a very kind and honest person. I wish this moment hadn’t forced women like you to spend so much time advocating around really basic issues.

I really appreciate you and all your contributions here. You are super smart on so many topic and I always learn something reading your comments. I feel like I’d like you if we ever met in real life.

Sorry for the super slow response! I took a mental health break.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

As others said, it seems like it's because of sexism and misogyny. Maybe socialization leads many or most transwomen to complain like men and many or most transmen to (not) complain like women, so more often than not transwomen get their way. I don't think that female-ness is generally viewed negatively by transwomen, so maybe being conscientious of how transmen feel about being grouped like that isn't viewed as very important or given much consideration.

I have such a hard time believing that anyone actually likes this kind of phrasing and terminology. It seems like we're all being trolled (I really hope that we are)

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Got to feel special.