GC: What are the differences between sex segregation and racial segregation? Why is the former required, while the latter is discriminatory?

submitted by Tea_Or_Coffee from self.GCdebatesQT

When people hear segregation based on sex, they think of the racist laws that excluded black people from white only spaces. They claim it's not okay to separate men and women, as much as it was not okay to separate black and white people. Why is racial segregation discriminatory, while sex segregation is a requirement and not discriminatory?

Another thing I hear often is "if men should not be allowed in women's spaces because they might be attracted to women, and stare at a woman inappropriately making women uncomfortable, why should lesbians be allowed in women's spaces"?

I have no response to that question honestly. As a lesbian, I have stared at women sexually and dreamt of doing sexual things with them, especially in bathrooms and locker rooms.

If we feel uncomfortable by men staring at us sexually in these spaces, why should I and other lesbians be allowed in women's spaces? Wouldn't other women feel just as uncomfortable knowing I stare at them sexually and dream of sleeping with them? I have not acted on these desires without "permission". I have never raped another woman. But how is that different from a man not acting on his own "desires" when he sees women in locker rooms, bathrooms, etc?

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[–]adungitit 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Black people did not demand segregation for their own protection and needs. Segregation was pushed on them by the dominant class for no reason other than the fact that they were seen as subhumans that the whites shouldn't mingle with. This is different from women fighting for their own spaces because shared spaces were dangerous and exclusionary to them because of men's misogyny.

"if men should not be allowed in women's spaces because they might be attracted to women, and stare at a woman inappropriately making women uncomfortable, why should lesbians be allowed in women's spaces"?

We don't have an entire history of women sexually assaulting and perving on other women to the point of having to create separate spaces for protection just so women could function normally in public.

EDIT: The equivalent of racial segregation would be when women were straight up banned by men from institutions like colleges and jobs. In some places they couldn't even leave the house unattended. THAT is segregation.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex-segregated spaces were created to include women in social life (and sports), give women equal chances and opportunities. Men and women are very different and average "standart" or unisex spaces are not serving women any good and made with men in mind. That's why, by the way, including males in women's sports and spaces is not inclusive, it is exclusionary.

Race segregation was created to exclude black people from social life.

Sex-segregation was long fought and needed by women, and even today in very patriarchic countries lack of sex-segregation is a big point of pressure on women.

Race segregation was enforced on black people against their will.

So sex segregation and race segregation are completely opposite in every aspect.

[–]MarkTwainiac 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

As a lesbian, I have stared at women sexually and dreamt of doing sexual things with them, especially in bathrooms and locker rooms.

Staring at women in a leering, suggestive, sexually aggressive way in locker rooms, toilet facilities and other such settings is not acceptable for anyone, including lesbians and bi women. It's also NOT customary behavior for lesbians and bi women, either. At all.

In another post on this thread you say

I don't stare too much by the way. My sex drive changes frequently, from feeling nothing to feeling too much all of a sudden. Most times, when I see other women anywhere, I don't feel anything. But there are these occasions I have a high sex drive and stare even if it's on the streets ...

It must be because I've never had sex? Not sure. I'm very introverted and socially awkward. Even talking to others is a hard task for me, that's why I've never even been in a relationship. 😅

Please stop suggesting that what you personally do on the streets every once in a while is indicative of what all or the majority of lesbians and bi women customarily and constantly do, and have historically done, in intimate spaces like locker rooms and loos. None of us can make generalizations about entire classes of people based on our own individual life experience. This is even more the case for you because as you admit, you have very limited life experience. You do not represent lesbians or bi women as a group. You do not speak for them.

From your many posts on this sub, you are a very poorly informed person with little experience and knowledge about the topics you opine about more generally. Though many here find your threads and posts frustrating and tiresome, you have been shown a great deal of tolerance. But today I am drawing a line in the proverbial sand and saying I do not and will not tolerate this new attempt of yours to sully the reputation of all lesbians and bi women by painting them in a negative light.

Lesbians and bi women are not sexually aggressive leches who in locker rooms, ladies loos and other intimate female spaces tend to stare and leer at other women in a pervy, predatory way that is akin to the way boys & men use the "male gaze" to regard us as pieces of meat.

For you to suggest lesbians and bi women typically do behave this way is incredibly offensive. It's not only a total lie, but it's clearly meant to make lesbians and bi women out to be "manly" and "mannish" and "just as bad as men" for the purpose of suggesting that if boys and men don't belong in female intimate spaces, then lesbians and bi women don't either. This is a position that is homophobic, biphobic, sexist and misogynistic. Smearing lesbians and bi women as you are attempting to do is, as the British would say, not on, OP. It's not on at all.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

It's also NOT customary behavior for lesbians and bi women, either. At all.

I am often ashamed to look in such spaces at all, as I feel a bit guilty. And most lesbians I know are not looking at other women, especially not staring in such spaces.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, if anything, lesbian and bi women in such spaces tend to overcompensate by being especially circumspect. Because so many have been raised to think/fear that other women all assume lesbians look upon everyone of their own sex in an inappropriate, prurient way.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (11 children)

I am often ashamed to look in such spaces at all, as I feel a bit guilty.

May I ask why you feel guilty?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Because they are in safe space and I may make them feel uncomfortable.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The fact that you feel and behave as you do so as not to make other women feel uncomfortable is a prime illustration that lesbians and bi women were socialized as women and are entirely different to men!

[–]Elvira95 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Having your eyes all over me wouldn't make me uncomfortable, actually quite happy. Oh wait, I'm a lesbian, forgot that :D

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

You found me even here :D

[–]Elvira95 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

I hope to find you in person as soon as possible :D

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Aww 🥺 Hope you and u/VioletRemi finally meet soon 🥰

[–]Elvira95 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, it's shitty that we're both in very complicated condition in our lives and far, yet I have completely fall in love, even if it's very unlikely to have a real relationship. Sometimes you find the perfect person who makes you feel close to her, even if she's so far and from completely different culture and country. I still hold some hope though. Thanks.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

I can feel how hard it is for you :( I haven't ever been in a relationship myself because socialization drains me (I can manage online interactions more than the ones in reality) and I'm never able to take good care of myself let alone a relationship. But I've learned a few things about it watching other relationships, so my advice to you and u/VioletRemi would be not to give up on your love for each other. View the distance between you as a learning journey, a test.

Instead of thinking that the long distance is pulling you two apart, believe that through this experience, you will be bound together even stronger.

You can use video chats to at the very least meet face to face too! I'm sure you will meet one day though. Fingers crossed wishes

P.S. my dms are always open if you want to vent about this to someone and need support!

[–]jackrusselterror1 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. I’m bisexual and I either beeline for a private space if possible at a communal locker/shower area, or I face away from any person and change as quickly as possible. Tbf I think most women try to rush through this with minimal interaction, the locker room isn’t a magical gathering place for women to converse and bond. I do judge people who start up conversations with strangers in these places or can’t stop staring in locker rooms or bathrooms, there’s no reason we can’t save talking for when I’m actually fully dressed or not on the toilet, and I wish they’d have a little social awareness please.

Consent is extremely important, and no one wants to be watched with sexual intent when vulnerable. Like I said, I’m attracted to other women, but even if I was attracted to the woman eyeing me in a locker room, I’d find the lack of tact and consideration for others completely off putting and wonder what other boundaries that person routinely breaks.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

I-

I'm not making generalizations. I understand most lesbians do not stare at other women sexually in locker rooms, toilet facilities, etc. Why do you think I, I, should be allowed in women's spaces when unlike other lesbians I'm abnormal and sometimes stare at other women sexually in these places?

Though I think you have answered it. That me sexually looking at other women isn't similar to the predatory way men do.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Why do you think I, I, should be allowed in women's spaces when unlike other lesbians I'm abnormal and sometimes stare at other women sexually in these places?

Though I think you have answered it. That me sexually looking at other women isn't similar to the predatory way men do.

No, what I said was this:

Staring at women in a leering, suggestive, sexually aggressive way in locker rooms, toilet facilities and other such settings is not acceptable for anyone, including lesbians and bi women. It's also NOT customary behavior for lesbians and bi women, either. At all.

Some lesbians and bi women can and do behave in sexually aggressive, inappropriate, predatory ways, just as some heterosexual women can and do. Maybe you are a lesbian who behaves in ways that other women - including other lesbians and bi women- find discomfiting, unnerving and creepy. But I did not say

me sexually looking at other women isn't similar to the predatory way men do.

I have no idea. I don't know you or how you behave IRL. But please don't take my comments to mean that I think because you are female you can do no wrong. Coz that's not my position.

Staring at other persons in locker rooms, loos and other places (such as on public transport or the streets) in a manner likely to make them uncomfortable - for whatever reason - is widely considered inappropriate and impolite. In some countries, making eye contact with another person during conversation is considered rude.

Just as you cannot use your feelings, tendencies and experience as an individual as the basis on which to make gross generalizations about all the world's lesbians and bi women, none of us can use the fact that we are female as an excuse for engaging in socially inappropriate behavior.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

You haven't responded to my question yet. Why should I be welcome in women's spaces when I sometimes stare at other women sexually in those spaces and can't help it, especially since I'm socially awkward? And don't care about what people consider "socially appropriate", since it varies from culture to culture and I'm so done with people telling me what to do and not to do just because they feel uncomfortable? Should you create a separate space called "for that inappropriate woman named tea only" just like we do for men? And if not, why not?

[–]Penultimate_Penance 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you have a female body you are welcome in all female only spaces. If you disobey basic rules of human decency and behavior, you may be summarily kicked out of those spaces for being an asshole. The difference between a woman leering and a man leering is strength and a huge difference in violent & sexual crime rates between women and men. Women aren't even in the same ball park when it comes to violence. It's sor rare that I don't even worry about violence or sexual harassment at all when dealing with women. If a woman (extremely unlikely but bear with me) sexually harassed me or attacked me I wouldn't be afraid to fight back. I wouldn't be afraid to tell her she's being a creep and to knock it off.

If a man did that I know he could easily overpower me and do much worse. I also know that society doesn't have my back, so I just get the fuck away from him as quickly as possible and hope I never run into that predatory piece of shit ever again. (I've got a lot of righteous anger built up after a life time of dealing with sexually predatory men). The strong prey on the weak. That's why we have protective spaces for the female bodied people. Women are literally not strong enough to physically defend ourselves from the average man.

That's why I have no issues with lesbians or bisexual women in women's spaces. Every woman I have interacted with in my entire life has respected my boundaries. Men on the other hand... Whoo boy you couldn't pay me to go into a unisex locker room. I'm bisexual myself, but please as a matter of basic human decency never ever under any circumstance stare or god forbid leer at people especially strangers. It is extremely rude at best and really threatening at worst. Social awkwardness is not an acceptable excuse. You're an adult. Control yourself.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You haven't responded to my question yet. Why should I be welcome in women's spaces when I sometimes stare at other women sexually in those spaces and can't help it, especially since I'm socially awkward? And don't care about what people consider "socially appropriate", since it varies from culture to culture and I'm so done with people telling me what to do and not to do just because they feel uncomfortable? Should you create a separate space called "for that inappropriate woman named tea only" just like we do for men? And if not, why not?

I didn't answer your question because it's one of the myriad goady questions you've asked on this sub going back many months. And coz when you get answers, your usual pattern is to ignore the bulk of responses completely and just restate your question in another way. And also coz many of the views you've expressed on other threads and this one I find odious. Such as your saying here that when you use women's spaces, you're gonna go ahead and continue to "stare at other women sexually in those spaces" coz you "can't help it" and you're "so done with people telling me what to do and not to do just because they feel uncomfortable" besides. The fact that you don't respect other women's boundaries, or even believe other women have have a right to any boundaries in your presence, couldn't have been made clearer.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What are the differences between sex segregation and racial segregation?

In the simplest terms:

a) There are no substantial innate differences between humans across race (apart from some population-driven tendencies for genetic medical conditions)

b) There are substantial innate differences between men and women regardless of race

c) There is a definite demonstrated history of aggression and violence of men against women, and social and economic vulnerability of women and the children in their care, across all races

Therefore women in this sense are considered a vulnerable class, and sex-based segregation is provided as a protective measure (sometimes called "positive discrimination").

(Disclaimer -- this is the reasoning of internal U.S. policy, and is not equivalent to punitive cultural sex segregation.)

[–]Penultimate_Penance 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. The reason women need not want NEED single sex spaces: Male Violence
  2. Why is male violence such a big deal? Because men are on average significantly stronger than women. Women wouldn't even have a fighting chance stronger.
  3. Because of the underlying threat of male violence women cannot safely socially police criminal & non criminal, but still completely unacceptable behaviors that many men engage in. Most men get away with groping, leering, stalking, threatening and attacking women. The justice system does not have our back. The conviction rate of rapists and other types of sexual predation is abysmally low. Sexual assaults, rape and what not cannot be undone. Hence why single sex spaces are a justified preventative measure.
  4. The consequences of rape for women can be catastrophic on multiple levels including unwanted pregnancy.

The strong prey on the weak. So the weak need protection. Single sex spaces and racial segregation are not comparable at all.

The differences between lets say a white person and a black person are superficial. Skin color says nothing about a person's character or capabilities. Racial segregation is irrational and unjust. That is why it is wrong. There are significant important physical differences between men and women. Given the scourge of male violence and male sexual predation single sex spaces are justified as a preventative measure to protect women from violent and/or sexually predatory men.

Lesbians & bisexual women have the same average strength as heterosexual women. We can safely socially police homosexual & bisexual women if they engage in inappropriate behavior without fearing for our lives. (Also it is extremely unlikely for lesbians to behave inappropriately. Men commit roughly 99% of rapes and the vast majority of sexual crimes.)

[–]FlanJam 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

A lot of comments already mentioned safety reasons, so I'll just mention privacy and dignity reasons. Most women wouldn't want to strip naked in front of random men in a locker room, that's just the kind of society we live in, we're not nudists lol. Women have a right to privacy and NOT being peeped on by men.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (13 children)

Why should women specifically have the right to privacy from men, but not from other women? That doesn't make sense. If you remove the safety aspect, gendered spaces indeed lose meaning. Just saying "I don't want men around because yucky" is not good enough reason .

[–]FlanJam 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Women do have the right to privacy from other women. If a woman peeped on another woman in a single stall changing room, then obviously that's wrong. Locker rooms, however, women expect to have to share with other women. Part of it probably due to practicality, making every locker room individual stalls would require a lot more space. Part of it probably has to do with societal standards, women sharing spaces with other women is the norm and most people seem to be okay with this system.

I don't think I'm saying anything weird, I'm just describing the way things currently are. If you don't think it makes sense you're free to advocate for coed locker rooms, I'm sure some already exist. And who knows, maybe things will go that way in the future. But right now I think most women prefer spaces to be sex segregated.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Privacy is important too. Young girls with first periods are fine changing pads when other girls are present in public bathroom. But would not be fine in unisex one.

Privacy is one of big issues in African countries for this reason.

As example - in recent Kenya report, they found that women are worse at education because the lack of single-sex spaces. They either have unisex bathrooms or none at all. So girls and teen women are skipping classes during periods, which is leading to them getting behind in knowledge. Feminists there are strongly fighting for single-sex spaces. One African feminist (I don't remember from what country) even said that single-sex spaces are very important requirement for women to gain equality and to be included in social life. And that lack of them is a sign of control and policing over women.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (10 children)

Young girls with first periods are fine changing pads when other girls are present in public bathroom. But would not be fine in unisex one.

Why not? And no, just saying "I don't wanna" isn't good enough.

in recent Kenya report...

🙄 Irrelevant. We are obviously talking about a reality where women/girls would not have to put up with harassment from men/boys all their life. Having mixed spaces makes no sense under the patriarchy because sexed spaces exist to protect female people from male harassment. This point has been stated so why do we have to go over it again?

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Why it isn't good enough? Comfort, dignity and not feeling afraid is already enough argument for single sex spaces. And safeguarding is even bigger argument. Even if males would not be violent and females would not be in danger - just named reasons should be already enough.

They feel uncomfortable and ashamed. While other girls understand them and may experienced the same - and boy never can understand or experience this.

Sports are single-sex as well, and not for safety reasons (in contact sports for safety reasons too, but it is small part of sports).

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (8 children)

Comfort, dignity and not feeling afraid is already enough argument for single sex spaces.

Comfort? Dignity? These are extremely subjective. Tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of. And yet we all still change together. Men could theoretically achieve the same status if they didn't consistently show they can't behave like human beings around women and compromise their safety.

just named reasons should be already enough.

Your reasons are based in harassment and fear of violence. You've provided no other reasons, and yet you claimed others exist.

Sports are single-sex as well

This is due to fairness. Fairness in competition has nothing to do with changing or peeing near other people.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Comfort? Dignity? These are extremely subjective. Tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of. And yet we all still change together.

But girls' & women's need and desire for comfort, dignity and privacy isn't just about wanting "to avoid sexually titillating" others. Often it's not about that at all. In fact, the way you've framed the situation - placing all the onus on the persons being viewed (in your view those who "titillate") and none on the viewers (who in your view are liable to be titillated at the drop of hat, or rather trou) - conveys a view of human sexual arousal and functioning that a lot of people would take issue with. And which comes off as puerile or adolescent.

The way you've framed this also assumes that most/a lot of people believe ourselves to be so highly attractive to others that we're convinced they'll get turned on sexually just by seeing or being in close proximity to our unclothed or partially clothed bodies. When, in fact, a lot of people have such negative body-images that they think the opposite - that other people will be repulsed by the sight of their naked or partially unclothed bodies. And when, in fact, due to age and general appearance, a majority of the population do not think we are likely to arouse the lustful passions of every Tom, Dick and Nancy we encounter.

Take age, for example. Most women "over a certain age" know full well that we are essentially invisible to "the male gaze" generally coz of our age - and that our age makes us unlikely to catch the fancy and stir the loins of lesbians and bi women on the prowl too. In the US, more than 60 million are over age 50 - and the majority of us would not list wanting to "avoid sexually titillating" others of either sex as amongst the top reasons why we desire and need the comfort & dignity afforded by sex segregation as well as by courteous, discreet behavior from all parties in shared toileting and changing facilities. Some of us wouldn't list it at all. Same goes for many older men. Honestly, a vast proportion of the population does not desire bodily privacy because we think getting a gander of our unclothed bods is gonna cause strangers to get "titillated."

You also are framing the situation as if girls and women are entirely analogous to boys and men physically and in terms of how we are treated in society. Neither of which is true.

In human cultures, girls and women's bodies are sexually objectified in ways and to an extent that boys and men's bodies are not. Moreover, girls and women's bodies go through processes and changes - such as menstruation, pregnancy, lactation - that male bodies do not. For both these reasons, many girls and women feel special discomfort at the prospect of being naked or partially undressed - and of having to deal with intimate bodily matters like menstruation and blood leakage, pregnancy vomiting, pregnancy-related issues like piles, miscarriage, post-partum or post-abortion bleeding, leaking breasts, flooding from fibroids or menopause, urinary or fecal incontinence due to aging, etc - in a room where men might be coming and going, some might look, leer and listen - and some might visit and linger in precisely for the purpose of looking, leering and listening (and sniffing too).

A significant percentage of the male population has one or several paraphilias. As a result, a good number of boys & men engage in voyuerism, flashing, public masturbation and are aroused by matters of female biology such as menstruation, pregnancy, breastfeeding, and female urination. Some men get off simply on hearing girls & women urinate. Most/many of these men typically do not ever escalate to physically assaulting girls or women, so they pose no safety threat. But still it's reasonable for girls & women not to want to be around them particularly when we are naked, partially naked and/or dealing with intimate bodily matters.

Similarly, many boys and men who don't have paraphilias, are not generally considered perverts, & never have and probably never will commit sexual assault, are nevertheless accustomed to using the toilets & change facilities at school, work and in public places to jerk off in. Tucking into the boys or men's room to "rub one out" in the course of a work shift or school day is customary behavior for a huge number of boys & men. It's perfectly reasonable for girls & women not to want to be anywhere near this activity.

When you scoffingly say

Comfort? Dignity? These are extremely subjective.

It makes you seem extremely naive about how some boys & men behave in loos, change rooms, locker rooms, hospital wards and other such spaces outside the home. It also makes you come off as very insensitive to, and dismissive of, the feelings of the bulk of the female population, and our need and desire for comfort and dignity. It's like telling people who need special accommodations coz of disabilities, Accessibility? That's extremely subjective. Accessibility to people in wheelchairs means one thing, but to people who are blind or visually impaired it means another. Then there's all those pesky people who can't hear... See, the complaints & issues the disabled have are all subjective. They don't even agree amongst themselves. If we take one group's subjective situation and feelings into account, where will it end? Best if they all just suck it up and make do with things the way they are.

Also, please provide some evidence for your claim that

Tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of.

And in so doing, please specify the sex, age range, place of origin & residence, religion etc of the "tons of people" you are referring to. And their sexual orientation, or rather their presumed sexual orientation.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

placing all the onus on the persons being viewed (in your view who "titillate") and none on the viewers (who in your view are liable to be titillated at the drop of hat, or rather trou) - conveys a view of human sexual arousal and functioning that a lot of people would take issue with.

I was talking about the reason why these persons being viewed have an issue being viewed by the viewers, hence why I was talking about the feelings of the persons being viewed, rather than the viewers.

Your entire reply is pretty much the same playing-dumb act all over again despite these things already being addressed: Having mixed spaces makes no sense under the patriarchy because sexed spaces exist to protect female people from male harassment. No-one here is debating this. The thing being questioned is why sexed spaces would need to exist if this wasn't a concern.

Also, please provide some evidence for your claim that tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of. And in so doing, please specify the sex, age range, place of origin & residence, religion etc of the "tons of people" you are referring to. And their sexual orientation, or rather their presumed sexual orientation.

lol

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was talking about the reason why these persons being viewed have an issue being viewed by the viewers

I disagree with "the reason" you have cited. I don't there is one reason that many humans have an issue being viewed naked or partially naked by others of the opposite sex in communal settings, and some might have an issue being viewed by members of their own sex in such settings too. I further don't believe in the one reason that you have cited as "the reason." Coz I don't assume rabid homophobia to be as rife you seem to think it is, nor justifiable as you portray it. Moreover, I don't think a majority of the world's populace perceives their own bodies to be so attractive & sexually alluring that they take it for granted that heterosexual strangers of the opposite sex and homosexual strangers of the same sex all will become sexually titillated if they see us naked or unclothed.

Your entire reply is pretty much the same playing-dumb act all over again despite these things already being addressed: Having mixed spaces makes no sense under the patriarchy because sexed spaces exist to protect female people from male harassment. No one here is debating this.

But I am debating it. I do not agree with you that the only reason single-sex spaces exist is to protect female people from male harassment. Boys customarily are not allowed to accompany their mums or carers into female loos, change rooms and locker rooms once they turn 8 not because everyone thinks boys of that age are likely to be sexual harassers, but because humans in many diverse cultures are raised to have very strong feelings about, and boundaries around, bodily privacy. And because most cultures have different standards for what's appropriate and "feels right" in shared settings involving nudity and intimate bodily functions depending on the sex and ages of the persons there.

Though some boys and men are abusive towards their mothers, and some even beat their mothers, most of the world's males do not and would not sexually harass their own mothers. Yet once boy children are over a certain age, most of their mothers do not feel comfortable undressing or using the toilet in front of or in the presence of their sons.

Most girls & women are not comfortable taking off their clothes, changing sanitary pads or washing blood from their vaginas off their hands in front of their male adolescent and adult relatives even when those male relatives are all nice, decent guys whom the girls & women correctly perceive as posing no threat of harassment.

When I point out that there is more to single-sex spaces than you say, you dismiss my points out of hand by saying

Your entire reply is pretty much the same playing-dumb act all over again

And when asked for evidence of the unsubstantiated claims you make, you come back with

lol

But I don't think I'm the one playing dumb here. And I don't think others will see "lol" as the clever comeback you seem to think it is.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of.

Are you sure? Maybe years ago. I’m sure someone does, but I can’t imagine it’s very many people. If a homosexual person is being creepy that is uncomfortable, but not just being there. I feel like the creeping doesn’t happen much though.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

I don't think anyone's ever done a study on it, but I remember it being a point of contention in sports where some straight players were uncomfortable changing around an out gay player. In a lot (in my experience most) of people's minds, the idea of being comfortable with nudity assumes a lack of sexuality in the environment. This, rather than fear of harassment, is presumed to be the reason for separating the sexes - privacy from being viewed sexually by someone whose attraction you do not want to be a part of.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think anyone's ever done a study on it, but I remember it being a point of contention in sports where some straight players were uncomfortable changing around an out gay player.

So the assumptions and claims you've made about the entire human race are based on anecdotal evidence from an unspecified place and time in the past about some persons presumably of the male sex physically suited to male competitive sports at the time in their lives when they were actively playing. Meaning not just males of peak fitness age (adolescence and young adulthood), but males of that age who've chosen to devote significant time & energy to pursuits that often involve lots of macho posturing, chest-thumping, one-upmanship and tests of "manliness" - and which were created as stand-ins for the very male enterprise of battle/warfare.

You seem to think that coz some young males heavily invested in & actively playing sports are or have been vocally homophobic, then all human beings must also be homophobes - and everyone's presumed homophobia must be as extreme and run just as deep as that of some male athletes. When the reality is, even amongst males actively playing male competitive sports, the prevalence and depth of homophobia is likely to vary enormously depending on the culture, the era, the sport and the individuals. Social attitudes commonly found amongst males who play soccer, rugby, (American) football, cricket, basketball or who box, kickbox, wrestle and do MMA might well be different to those of male tennis players, gymnasts, swimmers, divers, track & field athletes and males who practice such martial artists as karate, judo and kendo. And within each sport, a wide variety of attitudes is most likely to be found.

Moreover, even if we stay within the narrow realm of sports, I think observations and suppositions about the levels and kinds of homophobia found in some male sports don't necessarily apply to female sports.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

I like how you're both claiming "this doesn't happen" and it the same comment talking about why it happens lol

[–]fuckupaddams 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Males are notorious for sexually assaulting females. A black woman is not likely to rape me, nor would I fear that she would.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Racial segregation was about racism. White men and white women still had their own sex based spaces when they weren’t allowing black people to access the same spaces... and black people weren’t advocating for black men to use women’s rooms and vis versa. They wanted to be able to use sex based spaces that everyone else got to use in the way everyone else used them- separated by sex.

There are many different ethnicities/races, they’re all made up of the same two sexes. It’s absurd to have a white bathroom, black bathroom, Latino bathroom, Asian bathroom, Native American bathroom... it’s not absurd to have two spaces, one for each sex that regardless of their race, every human is bound to be one of.

Sex segregation is about safety, privacy, equality sometimes, comfort levels, etc

Honestly it’s weird of you to just stare at women in bathrooms and locker rooms- but it’s not scary (it’s also not like lesbians/bi women generally make a habit of staring at women in bathrooms and locker rooms, some doing it doesn’t mean most of us don’t realize that’s creepy, also worth noting there’s a difference between noticing someone attractive and staring at them). Females are typically less dangerous than males, I may notice a woman staring, I’m not going to be afraid of the harm she may cause. And she is significantly less likely to want or attempt to cause me harm. Basically, if a woman was staring at me, I wouldn’t really care, if they were being weird about it, I would care and I’d have no problem saying something- if a man were staring at me, instant tension, instant thought of getting out and or seeing who else is in the space, and I wouldn’t dare say a word, I’d just remove myself ASAP.

There will always be risk and danger in public life, sex segregation is one of the ways to attempt to lessen that and offer females spaces where we feel safe and can seek refuge if need be, racial segregation was just about skin tone and hatred.

I think it’s odd that people have a problem with women wanting their own spaces, but not with men forcing women to sacrifice their spaces.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Makes sense.

I don't stare too much by the way. My sex drive changes frequently, from feeling nothing to feeling too much all of a sudden. Most times, when I see other women anywhere, I don't feel anything. But there are these occasions I have a high sex drive and stare even if it's on the streets ...

It must be because I've never had sex? Not sure. I'm very introverted and socially awkward. Even talking to others is a hard task for me, that's why I've never even been in a relationship. 😅

[–]HelloMomo 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In middle school gym, I remember thinking about the topic of lesbians in the changing room, and being vaguely uncomfortable with the idea. I never said anything about it, because I had no better plan of how to reorganize things (where were the lesbians supposed to go, then?). But I do get that idea.

(Plot twist, turns out lesbians in the changing rooms were me + 2 of my closest friends at the time.)

But I was a middle schooler then. I thought that the idea of sex-segregated changing rooms was to protect people from lustful eyes, because that's sort of the friendly, down-peddled version of the story. I didn't know that the real reason for sex-segregated rooms is to protect women from literal assault, which is documented to happen much more in co-ed changing rooms. And I didn't know that because I was a kid. No one had ever told me, because they didn't want to scare me.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

which is documented to happen much more in co-ed changing rooms.

In UK number of rapes is 9 times bigger in unisex changing rooms and bathrooms than in single-sex ones. If I remember correctly number of sexual harassment is around 18-20 times bigger there as well.

This means that removing single-sex spaces or making them "all genders" will increase risks for women by 9 and up to by 20 times.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In middle school gym, I remember thinking about the topic of lesbians in the changing room, and being vaguely uncomfortable with the idea. I never said anything about it, because I had no better plan of how to reorganize things (where were the lesbians supposed to go, then?). But I do get that idea.

(Plot twist, turns out lesbians in the changing rooms were me + 2 of my closest friends at the time.)

This reminded me of a friend of mine in middle school who, unbeknownst to anyone else, was struggling with the same kinds of feelings & thoughts you had as a kid. She dealt with her internal discomfort by accusing one of her female classmates of being a lesbian and making sexual advances on her. She carried out a really vicious campaign against the other girl, making up wild stories about all the "perverted" things the girl had tried to do to her, which included trying to diddle her with a stuffed animal and attempting to rape her with the handle of a hairbrush whilst she was on a sleepover at the girl's house. The girl she accused was me!

Which just goes to show that homophobic prejudice and bullying are equal opportunity, all-purpose kinds of animus and abuse that often are directed at people who are not homosexual themselves, and that some people who engage in homophobic abuse of others are gay, lesbian or bi themselves.

Also, I know what my friend was going through internally back in middle school because about 35 years later we came into contact again by happenstance, and she told me all about it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just want to add that the solution to women behaving inappropriately in women's spaces is to deal with them and their behavior directly. It's not to decide that because a small number of females act inappropriately, then let's open up female spaces to males coz some boys & men behave inappropriately too.

A sports analogy is apt. Just because some female athletes cheat in sports by doping on T and other PEDs isn't a justification for suspending all anti-doping rules, for allowing males into female sports, or for saying, That's it's, gals! No more separate division of sports for girls and women. We tried that and coz a few girls & women cheated, we're eliminating the category altogether. If girls and women want to compete, you'll have to do so in the boys' and men's division.

[–]emptiedriver 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why is racial segregation discriminatory, while sex segregation is a requirement and not discriminatory?

When women are not allowed into men's clubs, it's sexist. There have never been separate drinking fountains for women. It's just places where men and women undress that are separate, and that's because we have different bodies and there is a risk of sexual assault, right? Black and white segregation was living spaces, buses, shops - black people were not allowed into the white world at all because they were considered lesser. Places where women were not allowed into men's spaces were sexist, and that was fought against in the exact same way. Places where they're separated for physical reasons are because male and female have different bodies.

why should lesbians be allowed in women's spaces

Most simply, lesbians may have unwanted thoughts, but they don't pose as much of a danger. They are less likely to physically overpower, they are less able to sexually violate, and they cannot impregnate other women. In addition most lesbians understand that it's unpleasant to be leered at and will not want to seem threatening. Also, there are just a smaller percentage of lesbians among a group of women than hetero men among a group of men.

Nothing is a 100% solution, but changing with your own sex handles 99% of the problem. You can't really regulate "don't go in if you might do something bad", and where are you going to have lesbians change? But it's a small enough issue to just accept division by sex, although famously that has resulted in male bathrooms turning into gay sex spots in the past... I've never heard of the equivalent issue arising for women's areas though.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because mixed people exist? The average "black" person in the US is 26% "white". Black people & white people have mixed children together, while males & females beget more males & females, not hermaphrodites. And one ethnic group isn't constantly trying to rape another ethnic group?

You already know the difference between being looked at by a lesbian & being looked at by a man.