GC: How to know the sex of an intersex person? Are intersex people not 100% male or female?

submitted by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

[deleted]

all 51 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most of this was answered in previous such threads.

And Collin said a bit different thing to what you are presenting he said. He said we are not typical male or female, not that we are neither.

Intersex is an umbrella term to a 40 very different conditions. All but 2 are happening only to one sex (and to be honest even those 2 are only visible on females). It is 0.18% of population shared by 40 conditions. Majority of conditions are unambigiously male or female.

Few where it is not that clear (like mine) are requiring few extra tests, to check:

  1. Working gonades or gonade leftovers.

  2. Genotype - SRY gene is checked (so XY without SRY can be considered female, as Y did no changes to organism and organism developed as female, but with some health issues).

  3. Genitals.

  4. Phenotype.

  5. Natural hormonal level and hormonal sensitivity.

For few very rare conditions can be done some extra testings, but those are depending on specific person and are different each time.

For example, my condition is deadly if not treated after birth and males with females need different treatment, so when I was born with virilized body and enlargened clitoris, I was sent for screening, they found working ovaries and they gave me treatment for a correct sex, saving my life. And it happened almost 50 years ago in second-world country. Today healthcare is even better at this. Plus males and females have different complications and need different additional treatment (I got early Secondary PCOS and taking contraceptive pills to treat hormonal imbalace) - similar to all other people of same sex. And treatment needed by us is similar to other people of same sex.

Is intersex a disorder? Isn't it bigotry to call intersex people disordered or tell them they have a disorder? We mean something is wrong with them or their body, which sounds dehumanizing?

Why it is bigotry?

We all have health issues which require treatment. It is very important to know it and not ignore treatment and just saying "they are other sex and need no intervention" - will kill many of us.

And isn't disagreeing with transgender identities racist?

Transgender identity is not a race.

There have been many cultures that had a similar concept to transgender. They had third genders in these cultures, and that's where transgenders get their idea of gender identity from. Isn't it disrespectful to these cultures to disagree with transgender identities?

No. Transgender people of today are not from those cultures and not following those cultures standarts. "Third genders" there had no voice, were not allowed in female spaces, were mostly doing housewife job or were taking care of kids. Transwomen of today are not doing any of this. And transmen analogues did not existed until 20th century.

All those cultures were not saying that man becomes a woman. All those cultures were strongly patriarchical and those "third genders" were almost always homosexual, infertile or weak men. They were below men, but above women in social status. They were doing jobs meant for men and women, while regular men were not doing "women's housework". Very often those "third genders" were castrated or sterelized in other means.

Those third genders were always very homophobic practices. Like in modern Iran.

I am myself victim of similar practices - was put on testosterone to "cure" my lesbianism.

On the other hand - transgender activists exploiting and misrepresenting those cultures is racism.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nothing challenges or overrules the sex binary. A disorder of any system is not a defining feature of the system in question.

Asthma is not part of the spectrum of lung function. Amputations are not part of a spectrum of human limbs. Glioma is not part of a spectrum of possible brain cells.

Why do people with DSDs need to be paraded around as evidence that having the sads over your genitals makes the sex binary go away? Even if it did somehow invalidate the binary, transgender people do not necessarily have DSDs, and the two concepts aren’t related.

[–]kwallio 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I think you misunderstood Colin's article. Most intersex person can be classified as one sex or another. Its only a very few that can't be classified one way or another.

[–]IWoreWhat 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (15 children)

Its only a very few that can't be classified one way or another.

But it still means there are intersex people who are neither male nor female. They have no sex?

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

No, it means it is very hard (or unethical in case of CAIS) to determine and double down on it.

It is still possible, but there too few people to test and research.

For example - in last 100 years there were only 4 recorded cases of XXY or XXXY without SRY gene. And only one case of chromosomal chimerism which ended with person being male.

So even if it was impossible to determine sex of those 4, that would mean nothing - too rarelly happens.

Some humans are born with one leg because of chromosomal errors - this does not mean that humans are not bipedal. Right?

[–]IWoreWhat 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (11 children)

Why is it "unethical" to determine the sex of CAIS people? How is it as unethical as or more unethical than determining the sex of regular people when they look at their genitalia?

Are CAIS male or female? If someone happens to want to date a CAIS individual, they should know if they are with a male or female, or at least might be curious to know. And I think it is unethical for them to be told "we can't test if you're dating a male or female because it's unethical". Which sex are they and how do we know?

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Persons with CAIS have male sex chromosomes but because they are completely insensitive to androgens develop a female phenotype and are typically raised as girls and regarded as women. I disagree that it's "unethical" to determine the sex of individuals with CAIS. They need health care just like everyone else does, which means diagnosing their condition and providing them with counseling and sometimes medical interventions too. Most people with CAIS learn of their condition in their teens when they reach 15 or 16 without ever having a period. Amenorrhea at that age is a serious issue that requires medical investigation.

Since many sex differences are the result of chromosomal sex, not gonadal or hormonal sex, and exist at the cellular level and affect various organs and body systems, the fact that persons with CAIS are XY needs to be taken into account when assessing their health and their health risks, and determining which treatments are most appropriate for them.

For example, there are considerable differences between the two sexes in such areas as kidney function, how the respiratory system works, and in immune function and overall level of immunity. Whilst XX people get more kidney disease than XY people do, XY people are more likely to die of kidney disease and at an earlier age. Certain diseases involving the lungs have very different trajectories, and life expectancies, in the two sexes. XX people have more robust immune function than XY people, which means we have a much higher rate of auto-immune conditions - and we have much stronger reactions to vaccinations and suffer more adverse reactions. Similarly, the risk of dying or needing ICU care due to COVID-19 is far greater for XY people than XX people, and the sex differences grow with age - to the point where a in the age group 85+, patients with only one X chromosome are 3.17 times more likely to die of COVID than patients with two Xes.

All that said, I think that persons with CAIS have every right to their privacy and to keep their condition between themselves and their family and HCPS, the only exceptions being in competitive sport where they might have an advantage - and of course in intimate relationships. When they date, the issue of their sex and medical condition is certainly relevant, especially as most people in the population want to have biological children but people with CAIS cannot. As with any other kind of condition that causes infertility, thorny issues of when during dating the fact of infertility should be divulged - and in the era of dating apps, these issues might well be thornier today than ever in the past.

But how to negotiate matters around disclosure during dathing is for individuals with CAIS to decide, based on their own ethics and with help from family, counselors, clergy to advise them. I don't think any of them should be seen as under any obligation to make their highly unusual medical condition part of their public profiles on dating sites. The question of

Which sex are they and how do we know?

Seems germane only to someone they personally know & might want to pursue an intimate relationship with. And for sports governing bodies in certain circumstances. But I think the rest of the world will get on fine without asking those questions or knowing the answers of individuals who have this vanishingly rare medical condition.

[–]IWoreWhat 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (9 children)

They don't have to say they have CAIS. But they will have to say their sex. if I meet a CAIS individual that tells me they are male eventhough CAIS are female, then I will feel deceived and lied to.

And if they say they are female eventhough CAIS are male, the same thing happens. Everyone has a right not to be deceived and lied to like this. I don't want to use false language. If CAIS are female, I will use "woman", and "she/her" when talking about them. If they are male, I will use "man", and "he/him". It is like if I meet a "trans woman" who "passes". If he doesn't tell me he's a man, then he's withholding information from me, and making me use false language such as "she/her". This would make me feel uncomfortable just because they don't want to feel uncomfortable.

So are CAIS male or female? Are they male because they have male chromosomes? Or are they female because they have a female phenotype? Which one would be true? Nobody has answered this question so far.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

They are people who were born with an exceedingly rare medical condition, a condition they did not ask for and which they played no part in bringing about. They are not out to deceive or lie to you or anyone else. They have nothing in common with trans-identified people - or with other individuals who, for whatever reason, set out with the conscious, purposeful intent of deceiving, duping, conning, hoodwinking, swindling and/or misleading. People with CAIS and other rare medical conditions are not The Big Bad Wolf, so stop trying to make it seem as if they are.

Tough noogies if such individuals not revealing the fact of their very rare genetic condition and the conflict between their sex chromosomes and phenotype to you upon first meeting

would make me feel uncomfortable just because they don't want to feel uncomfortable.

They aren't "withholding information" about their inherited medical conditions from you "because they don't want to feel uncomfortable." It's because prejudice, abuse and discrimination against people with genetic disorders is very real and quite common - and they don't want to make themselves vulnerable to such treatment. Which is why in the USA federal legislation called the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008 (GINA) has been in effect since November 2009, and why there are many state laws either on the books or under consideration to expand the privacy protections afforded by GINA.

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/new-state-genetic-privacy-law-directed-consumer-genetic-tests

So are CAIS male or female? Are they male because they have male chromosomes? Or are they female because they have a female phenotype? Which one would be true? Nobody has answered this question so far.

There are many CAIS and AIS support groups and forums online. I suggest you head over to all of them and pose your questions there. Make sure to tell 'em that you won't take NOYB as an answer coz even though you don't know them and never will meet any of them, your position is

They don't have to say they have CAIS. But they will have to say their sex.

To you a total stranger on the internet because in your view

Everyone has a right not to be deceived and lied to

And by "everyone" you really mean you, and that you take it as a given that if you're really, really curious to know something about others, then none them have any right whatsoever not to divulge to you the information about themselves that you desire to know when you stamp your foot and demand they come clean and cough it up.

Please do come back and let us know how they respond.

[–]IWoreWhat 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

You haven't answered my previous questions: Are CAIS male or female? Are they male because they have male chromosomes? Or are they female because they have a female phenotype? Which one would be true?

the conflict between their sex chromosomes and phenotype

Is sex determined by chromosomes or phenotype? Intersex people with CAIS are chromosomically male and phenotypically female. Are they male and female at the same time then? If they are just one of the two sexes, then should we go with chromosomes or phenotype?

Depending on the answer, I think your "morality" differs from mine. To you, people with disabilities never do anything bad. If someone with a disability says they are able-bodied, it's automatically not a lie and it's a good thing to do.

But I think it's a lie and it's deception. If sex is determined by phenotype, then CAIS are female, and not male no matter what their chromosomes are, and if they tell me they are male, that would be a lie.

If sex is determined by chromosomes, then CAIS are male, and not female, and if they tell me they are female, that would be a lie.

And by "everyone" you really mean you, and that you take it as a given that if you're really, really curious to know something about others, then none them have any right whatsoever not to divulge to you the information about themselves that you desire to know when you stamp your foot and demand they come clean and cough it up.

They want to feel comfortable right? Why should I feel uncomfortable when they say they are something they aren't (a lie) just because they feel comfortable that way?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why are you still asking me? Go ask on sites for people with CAIS. They're not hard to find.

Depending on the answer, I think your "morality" differs from mine. To you, people with disabilities never do anything bad.

I never said anything to lead anyone to think I believe "people with disabilities never do anything bad." What tosh.

Yes, we definitely do have a different view of morality. You seem to think you are the only person whose rights matter. You believe your right to satisfy your curiosity about other people's inherited, innate medical conditions by forcing them them to divulge whenever you, a total stranger, rock up and demand they do so will always trump the right of people with those conditions to tell you to get lost, that they will be the ones to decide with whom to share said info - and you as a total stranger have some nerve to think you have the right to order other people around.

You sound like those people who go up to pregnant women encountered in public who are total strangers, put their hands on the women's bellies and ask, What are you having? A boy or a girl? And if the poor women are so flummoxed that they actually answer before they have enough time to register how appallingly inappropriate the question is, then proceed to ask if the moms-to-be are going to breastfeed, plan to give birth vaginally or by C section, whether they want an unmedicated "natural" birth or are open to using drugs, will allow an episiotomy, plan to use a mirror to watch the baby come out, intend to circumcise the child if it's a boy, will use cloth or disposal diapers, and whether they've considered Montessori or Waldorf schools or plan to homeschool... LOL.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

I believe that generally individuals with CAIS are considered by the medical establishment to male if they’re being assigned a binary sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I dunno what you mean by "considered by the medical establishment to be male if they're being assigned a binary sex." Most individuals with CAIS are raised as though they were female, but in medical records/charts and when seen and treated in health care settings it's important for clinicians to know and keep in mind the full picture in order to provide the patients with proper care and support. Also, age at diagnosis plays a role. Lots of cases of CAIS traditionally weren't "caught" until adolescence, but nowadays more and more cases are diagnosed at in utero, shortly after birth or in early life.

https://www.issm.info/sexual-health-qa/what-is-complete-androgen-insensitivity-syndrome-cais/

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(12)60071-3/fulltext

BTW, I've read of at least one medical case report of someone with CAIS who was raised as a girl but adopted a male "gender identity" in adolescence and became a transman, including getting a phalloplasty.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (3 children)

Yes I’m aware sex is a spectrum I was just giving you the usual “binary” answer to the question

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

CAIS actually gives more credence to the fact that sex is binary than a spectrum. Also, I thought your view is that sex is a matrix. Or am confusing you with someone else? If I am, apologies.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We might not have the technology to say, with a 100% certainty, that one intersex person is male of female, but just because we are not able to do it it doesn't mean that they aren't one or the other.

[–]kwallio 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, they still have a sex, its just ambiguous. Keep in mind these disorders are very rare and you are talking about people that there are only a hand ful ever known.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Only your last paragraph is actually on topic, since intersex people & trans people are not the same. They're not even alike. Someone born without legs doesn't challenge the idea that humans are bipeds. Is being born WITH legs considered the result of a congenital disorder? Why not? Because human being are bipeds. Is being born without legs considered the result of a congenital disorder? How come? Because human beings are bipeds.

isn't disagreeing with transgender identities racist? There have been many cultures that had a similar concept to transgender.

Is it racist to call these non-Western homophobic cultural practices homophobic? What you call "third gender" is just their word for homosexual. Maybe their cultures are too traditionalist to have more egalitarian gay relationships, they have strict gender roles as a result. Sometimes they distinguish between feminine & masculine gay men – both types are called "muxe" in a minority ethnic group in Mexico, for instance, but they sometimes say muxe nguiiu for the masculine ones & muxe gunaa for the feminine ones.

Heterosexuals transitioning is a Western phenomenon (the female ones a very recent trend).

The heterosexual/bisexual ones are illegitimate either way (because they don't exist outside the modern day West), while transitioning gay men & categorising them as straight women is pathologising homosexuality, conversion therapy, homophobic erasure, sexist erasure & sexist appropriation.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He said intersex is like if you flip a coin, and the coin lands on its edge. You get neither head nor tail. Intersex must be the same way. They are neither male nor female?

No, you are completely misrepresenting what he said. He was demonstrating the small likelihood of having a DSD, disorder or difference of sex development that has resulted in, or will result in, VSCs or variations in sex characteristics.

DSDs are rare inborn medical conditions, and like any other rare genetic medical condition, they occur at a rate that can be mathematically predicted. For example, amongst white babies born in the US each year, 1 out of every 2,500 to 3,500 will have cystic fibrosis. Using Colin Wright's model, this would mean for every 2,500-3,500 coin flips, one would land on its edge - and in that one instance the child would have CF.

In the coin-flip model Colin Wright uses, when the coin lands on heads or tails, it simply means that those babies are born with normal sex development, absent any genetic issues that have caused, or will cause, their sex development to be atypical at birth or in the future.

When the coin lands on its edge - something that happens extremely rarely, once in a blue moon - the infant has a DSD. It doesn't mean people with DSDs don't have a sex, or that they are "in between sex" as the unfortunate term "intersex" you keep using implies.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is intersex a disorder? Isn't it bigotry to call intersex people disordered or tell them they have a disorder? We mean something is wrong with them or their body, which sounds dehumanizing?

No. Many people have disorders, whether genetic or acquired. It's not bigoted and dehumanizing to acknowledge that lots of people are born with a variety of medical conditions, or develop them later in life, that impair health and wellbeing and make us different to other people.

Some people do indeed have things wrong with our bodies. I sure do. I also had a brother and sister who were born with a genetic condition that meant there was something very wrong with their bodies indeed. They both died very young as a result - one in early childhood, the other at 24. Before they died, each endured years of extreme and often horrific suffering. Telling you this is not dehumanizing them or showing bigotry to them; it's recognizing them as human beings who were made of flesh and blood, whose untimely deaths and pain were tragic, and it's acknowledging the reality of what they as human beings went through.

It's not dehumanizing to admit that people can have all sorts of medical conditions, to say the names of those conditions, to describe what they entail, and to discuss (respectfully) their implications - just as it's not dehumanizing or bigoted to look for and spot the signs of such conditions, to diagnose them, and to seek, obtain and give medical treatment for them.

I find it far more dehumanizing, and cruel, in fact, to pretend that people with inherited (and other) medical conditions don't exist and to speak of us and our medical conditions only in hushed tones as if there is something shameful about them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

« How to know the sex of an intersex person? »

Ask them (only if and when it’s relevant).

Being trans isn’t a race, so... no, it’s obviously not racist to disagree with an ideology backed solely by debunked pseudoscience and the notion that everyone is super valid no matter what.

It’s actually disrespectful (and racist) for the trans community to use these cultures as examples to try to legitimize themselves. Many of the people whose cultures they’ve exploited have asked them to stop citing aspects of their cultures as comparable to being trans.

[–]IWoreWhat 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Ask them (only if and when it’s relevant).

No I meant how do you determine whether an intersex person is male or female. The intersex person might identify as something, like transgenders do. But how do you determine they are actually male or female? Their sex organs and chromosomes are ambiguous, so how is their sex determined?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A medical professional determines that. You’d need a medical expert or someone who has related knowledge to answer that here, how they identify has nothing to do with what sex they are determined to be

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

how do you determine whether an intersex person is male or female.

As loveSloane pointed out, sex determination of persons with DSDs is not up to you. It's a matter for trained medical professionals. There are clear protocols for diagnosing all the various conditions known as DSDs and for determining sex in each case. These are not mysterious conditions no one understands.

Moreover, only in a tiny number of DSDs might there be ambiguity of, or questions about, individuals' sex. The vast majority of people with DSDs are clearly male or female. DSDs are disorders that occur within each of the two sex categories, not in some "no man-no woman's land" between them.

Because a significant number of XY persons with DSDs have competed, or sought to compete, in women's sports at the elite international level, the issue of what sex these individuals really are has public policy implications. As the case of such athletes as Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui and Francine Niyonsaba show, it's extremely unfair to female athletes when XY athletes with certain DSDs are designated as & allowed to compete as females even though they have fully functioning testes, male levels of T and male sensitivity to T, and even though they've been through male puberty and have acquired all the physical advantages that puberty confers on males that give men such a leg up over women in athletics. In such cases, it's important to for the public to be able to discuss in a frank albeit respectful manner what sex category persons like Semenya really belong in. Yet even in cases like that of Semenya, Dutee Chand and of Erika/Erik Schinegger in the 1960s, the determination of sex is up to the medical and scientific professionals. Which is why they give evidence to the appropriate sports governing bodies and in court when litigation occurs.

[–]IWoreWhat 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (24 children)

More questions for GC, because mods keep removing when I post:

Is sex determined by chromosomes or phenotype? Are people with CAIS male or female? Doesn't CAIS challenge binary sex?

People with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome have male chromosomes and a female phenotype.

What is their sex?

That requires an understanding of what determines sex in the first place. Is it chromosomes, or phenotype? If it's chromosomes, then people with CAIS are male, despite having female phenotype.

If it's phenotype, then people with CAIS are female, despite having male chromosomes.

If it's both chromosomes and phenotype, then people with CAIS are male and female at the same time.

Please let me know which one is true.

And also why CAIS does not challenge binary sex?

When people can have variations of primary sex organs, secondary sex organs and chromosomes (which they call intersex), sex becomes a spectrum?

Someone could have undeveloped female sex organs, but developed male sex organs. If sex is a binary, it would be really difficult to determine what their sex is when their sex organs are so mixed.

This person says intersex people are nonbinary, neither man, nor woman, no matter what gametes or genitals they have and are a third sex: https://imgur.com/MERbsgr

Intersex people are where I understand the concept of nonbinary (a third sex). Someone naturally has very atypical hormone levels leading to abnormal secondary sex characteristics, has ambiguous genitals, and appears genuinely androgynous due to an intersex condition? I can completely understand why they feel the most comfortable saying "I don't want to be called a man or a woman", despite what gametes they produce.

Intersex are not male nor female? Just because they think so?

I remember in the wikipedia article on sry + xx males there was mention of xx males that don't have the sry gene too (how are they males then?).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

It says that about 10% of XX males do not have sry.

If sex is a spectrum, intersex and regular people can be some of these things, 1) male, 2) female, 3) more female, less male, 4) more male, less female, 5) neither male nor female, 6) male and female at the same time.

And if sex is a spectrum because of the variation we see for primary sex organs and chromosomes, then if a man takes hormones, removes his sex organs, and a neovagina is implanted in him, he becomes 1) less male, more female, 2) less male, 3) neither male nor female, 4) male and female at the same time.

And if a woman takes hormones, removes her sex organs and a neopenis is implanted in her, she becomes 1) less female, more male, 2) less female, 3) neither male nor female, 4) male and female at the same time.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

mods are deleting my threads

Because we answered your questions 10 times already. And you are still continuing to ask them, acting in bad faith and COMPLETELY ignoring if it has any moral justification as well by demanding from intersex people to out our conditions, even thought we already suffering from those conditions and need medical care and in general our life is harder because of this, but you demand to make our lives even worse becase YOU want something. Complete lack of empathy and narcissism - so similar to AGP males.

And if a woman takes hormones, removes her sex organs and a neopenis is implanted in her, she becomes 1) less female, more male, 2) less female, 3) neither male nor female, 4) male and female at the same time.

No, woman is same female regardless of how tall she is or if she has more or less hormones.

"Less female" is extremely offensive and in general such phrases are used as a slurs against intersex people.

Believe in "other sex" and "less female" or "less male" is what was leading to Intersex Genital Mutilation. So spreading this harmful believe is extremely dangerous and will lead to deaths or unneded surgeries, ruining lives of intersex people.

If sex is a spectrum, intersex and regular people can be some of these things, 1) male, 2) female, 3) more female, less male, 4) more male, less female, 5) neither male nor female, 6) male and female at the same time.

And that is why sex is a spectrum is very harmful concept and not needed in society. It will both harm a lot of people in healthcare, it will make much more confusing a lot of parts where sex is important - like sports or healthcare. And it will put a lot of pressure on people to conform.

This will mean that all those patriarchic societal pressures will become justified. So "man with smaller penis" will be less man and laughed out, that tall woman or shorter man will be considered as lesser and not completely a human. And so on. It is very dangerous concept which will only reinfoce gender roles. And it will have no biological justification, because spectrum of secondary characteristics is not making sexes a spectrum - so taller male will still need same treatment as shorter male, but different treatment than taller female. So such categorization makes no sense and only do harm.

Intersex are not male nor female?

Intersex are either male or female. We have told you this DOZENS of times. Why are you keeping ignoring all our answers?

It says that about 10% of XX males do not have sry.

Do not lie. It sayse next:

"In the remaining 10%, X inactivation spreads to include a portion of the SRY gene, resulting in incomplete masculinization."

So it still have SRY gene, just fragmented. Why are you ignoring EVERYTHING that not fitting your narrative? We are answering those questions again and again and again, but you keep asking them, even after they being answered.

This means you are asking them in bad faith. You don't want to hear answer to question, you want to hear what you believe yourself and not the truth.

This person says intersex people are nonbinary, neither man, nor woman, no matter what gametes or genitals they have and are a third sex: https://imgur.com/MERbsgr

No, we are either male or female. And we require treatment like other males or females. I require same pills for most of diseases as other females. My complications are similar to other females and not like males can have. I have Secondary PCOS because of my condition. Women with X0 Turner are losing ovaries - and only other women can lose ovaries, no male can have this problem. And so on.

Will you say that people with Congenital Heart Disease/Disorder are less human, because they have different developed heart? New species? Less male or female? Taller women are new sex? This makes no sense. If woman is taller she still have risk of PCOS, and if male is shorter - he can't have risk of PCOS.

So they are ignoring the definition of sex and just saying "those 0.18% of population are just other, abominations". Thanks!

Of course, if ignore definition of sex, then you can call anything sex. If any differences will mean new sex - then we will have 7.5 bilion sexes, because there does not exist two similar or exactly the same secondary or primary sex characteristics in 2 humans. This just makes no sense.

And why humans are special then? For every single species we are defining sex as this, but for humans we are defining sex as something else. Why? It reminds religion, which are believing that humans are special and following other rules than other universe.

Is sex determined by chromosomes or phenotype?

We answered this question to you 100 times.

I personally answered this question to you at least 3 times. EVERY DAMN TIME YOU JUST IGNORING IT. Maybe caps lock will work?

Sex is what reproductive role organism is aimed to fulfill, what type of genitals organism is aimed to support.

Turtles have same chromosomes for males and females, they are becoming male or female depending on temperature of egg when they were hatching. Yet we still always know who is male or female from them. Many rodents are looking exactly the same for males and females, yet we always know who is male and who is female. Clownfish can change sex depending on which gametes are ready - and yet we always know to WHAT sex clownfish changed right now.

Chromosomes and genitals are used in general for humans because in 99.981% of all cases they are 100% showing sex of a person. And if take in consideration SRY gene and inner sex organs (ovaries, uterus, testes, prostate, etc), then in 99.99991% of cases we can instantly say sex of a person. In the rest of 0.00009% there few more tests are needed to find sex, but even there it is possible.

It is possible to get a combination of uncompleted genes which will lead in sexless development, however - such kids are dying long before birth (at 1-2nd month of pregnancy), because human body can not develop without further instructions on becoming male or female - because the very vital organs are different for us (heart, lunghs, guts, skeleton, muscles, kidneys, etc), so they require different instructions from genes. So no living human is sexless.

And also why CAIS does not challenge binary sex?

Why should they?

If it's both chromosomes and phenotype, then people with CAIS are male and female at the same time.

Please let me know which one is true.

As it was answered at least 5 times to you - no, it is not true. And no, people with CAIS are not like transwomen as you asked in other thread.

People with CAIS in general looking like women, as they are completely insensitive to androgenes, so they started developing as females, yet they are lacking female reproductive organs and they are insensitive and can't react to male reproductive organs they have. Even in sports they are most likely not much stronger than females, but still stronger in some kinds of sports like powerlifting and running because they have different bone structure.

In general, we are accepting people with CAIS as women in society, but as males in healtcare. They were raised as normal and regular girls, everyone thinks they are girls/women, because in everything but inner biology they are like girls/women. So it would be extremely rude and unethical to out them to everyone but closest people and medical personel. Society is not perfect, so people with CAIS would be treated very badly when outed. CAIS happens in up to 0.0005% cases (it is hard estimate, most likely number is lower), but only males are struggling strongly from it, and they are around half of all cases, so CAIS is up to 0.00025% of births, with many not living past puberty in low developed countries.

Someone could have undeveloped female sex organs, but developed male sex organs. If sex is a binary, it would be really difficult to determine what their sex is when their sex organs are so mixed.

No, it would not difficult. Doctors who are studied this can say sex with few tests and can understand what one of 40 DSD conditions it is.

You understand that intersex conditions are extremely big outlier? We are only 0.18% births of population (and many not living long, so 0.18% of births will make it maybe 0.1% adults), and that 0.18% is for 40 different conditions. And only in around 0.0009-0.0018% of conditions genitals are ambigious or SRY gene is moved. That percent is much lower than percent of people born with Congenital Heart Disease/Disorder, lower than people born with 1 leg. So are we saying that people born with CHD are "completely fine and challenging how we define human species"? People born with intersex conditions all require medical treatment, because our conditions are not the norm and because of that we have a lot of health issues, which need to be treated.

1/2

[–]IWoreWhat 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (16 children)

In general, we are accepting people with CAIS as women in society, but as males in healtcare. They were raised as normal and regular girls, everyone thinks they are girls/women, because in everything but inner biology they are like girls/women. So it would be extremely rude and unethical to out them to everyone but closest people and medical personel.

You say this is not like "transwomen" eventhough it is. Just because people with CAIS think they are female, doesn't mean they are female. That's gender identity for you.

They have no female sex organs? Then they are male, and I'm not using she/her or woman for people with CAIS.

If it's not rude to call a "transwoman" he/him, man, and male, it's not rude to call people with CAIS he/him, man and male.

You sound like trans right activists. "Trans people are not under an obligation to tell you their sex, you should address them by their pronouns and preferred gender if they pass, and it would be rude and disrespectful not to" has become "people with CAIS are actually male, but identify as women, so you should address them the way they want, and it would be rude and disrespectful not to".

People with CAIS do not have female sex organs. Even if they have boobs, and pass as a woman, they are not women. Just like a "trans woman" that passes is not a woman.

People with CAIS are either male or female. They don't get to lie they are female/women when they are not, and make me or others change the way we speak, just like "trans women" don't get to lie they are female/women.

I don't think you understand how morality works either. If I see someone that passes as a woman, and I use she/her for them, but later on find out they were a man, I would feel deceived. It's not different when males with CAIS do this, and make everyone think they are women/female when they are not.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You ignored 99% of the post.

They have extremely rare condition that their phenotype is almost exacly life female one, and no one knows they are male including them until 16-20 years old. In general they even have labia and vulva which is not the same as cosmetic surgical

you sound like trans riggts activist

Are you trolling?

Plus - answer my questions. Why you ignored them? Then answer at least this one:

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO HURT PEOPLE WITH EXTREMELY RARE AND PAINFUL MEDICAL CONDITION AND OUT THEM FOR HURT???

Unlike transwomen - people with CAIS never were raised as men, no one ever considered them as men, they never knew themselves they are males. And this fact always hurts them a lot - as they realizing they are infertile and everything so far was a lie.

Amd here comes you and laughing at medical condition that require treatment and asking to hurt even more.

change the way we speak

lie

You are clearly troll. WHY ARE YOU IGNORING 99% OF WHAT BEING TOLD?

I am blocking you from now on.

[–]IWoreWhat 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (14 children)

I ignored the rest because you answered the questions and revealed people with CAIS are males. That was the only part that needed addressing.

I don't care that men with CAIS were raised to think they are women and everyone around them is so stupid to think they are women. My view is truth is better than lies even if it "hurts".

And yeah, please continue calling anyone who disagrees a troll. Amidst the caps locks and extreme shouting in your comment, I didn't once call YOU a troll. It's hilarious.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I explained you everything. All positions.

You ignored them and asked same question again.

You ignored all my queations.

You are not acting in good faith. Either you are troll, or completely dumb.

Good bye.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This person reminds me one discussion I had in this sub with one banned guy previously.

He was asking same question over and over, I was giving him big posts, with dozen links and researches, but he was just "admit you are wrong" and asking same question.

He just wanted compliance, he did not wanted to know the answer on questions.

This person looks absolutely like that guy. Such entitlement, lack of empathy and narcissism. "All will be my way, and if you disagree, I will annoy and attack you until you agree" - it is very common for abusive people to act like this. My father was gaslighting and attacking like this too. Even when he know he is wrong, he was day after day insisting we agree with him, and no other answer he was accepting.

It is "Do it to Julia" tactics from 1984, they will annoy you until you gave up and accept their terms, they don't care about truth and about people.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

No one can even know that they are male, including themselves, so your arguments are very stupid, and as was said - they aren't done in good faith and they are making no sense in real life. And those people are 5000 times (or 50000 times? My math is bad today) more rare than transgender people as well.

You are acting with her like an abusive person, so of course by your complete ignorance and repeating same questions over and over and ignoring her arguments you will make a person to write with caps lock or be mad at you. Such actions are either making you a troll or abusive narcissistic person who only wants things "your way". So it is showing you from a very bad side.

Discussion is when two people speaking and not when one is answering questions and other ignoring all answers and all questions. Sub is for discussions.

[–]IWoreWhat 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (10 children)

No one can even know that they are male, including themselves

Now we know.

But if you mean they themselves don't know, that's worse. Either doctors chopped the testes of males with CAIS (with or without family's request), and told the family who later on lied to the males with CAIS that they are women eventhough they are not, or doctors chopped the testes of males with CAIS and did not tell their family.

They (doctors, family, etc) should test whether or not someone has a DSD in hospitals before or after birth. Once they know someone has DSD, they should inform the family. The family shouldn't lie to the kids with DSD that they are a sex they are not, and should wait until they are in a stage of development capable of understanding this, so they can inform them of their actual sex. That way we won't be in this mess.

You are acting with her like an abusive person, so of course by your complete ignorance and repeating same questions over and over and ignoring her arguments you will make a person to write with caps lock or be mad at you. Such actions are either making you a troll or abusive narcissistic person who only wants things "your way". So it is showing you from a very bad side.

Discussion is when two people speaking and not when one is answering questions and other ignoring all answers and all questions. Sub is for discussions.

I didn't ignore. They answered my questions, and I understood. The only part that needed addressing, I addressed.

They didn't ask any questions for me to answer them.

I just disagreed on some things. It's so much easier to happily nod when ideas are brought forward, without disagreement. But I don't have better things to do at the moment and had to share my disagreements.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Now we know.

What do you mean "now we know"?

Without doctors checking them they don't know. They are looking like females and in general their body phenotype developed like female one. So there no reason to think they aren't females for anyone around.

Only when their health issues are hitting them, or when they are trying to find why they are infertile or why they have no menstruation at all - only then doctors making tests and finding out they have CAIS.

With PAIS or MAIS it is much easier, because they are not completely inresponsive to androgenes, so they are developing like males who have extra estrogene in them.

They (doctors, family, etc) should test whether or not someone has a DSD in hospitals before or after birth.

Why? It is invasive treatment that can harm kids. And CAIS is so super rare, that in a year there can be 0 births with this condition in country.

Intersex conditions that require fast treatment are visible when kid is born, so that is when tests are made. And those tests are made mostly to save lives to those intersex kids, because males and females require different treatment.

That way we won't be in this mess.

In what mess? There is no mess at all.

I didn't ignore. They answered my questions, and I understood. The only part that needed addressing, I addressed.

You not answered questions and you asked again what already was answered.

They didn't ask any questions for me to answer them.

Lies, she did asked you questions here and previously. And other people did same, but you never answering them.

You are misrepresenting what other people said or asked once again.

[–]IWoreWhat 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

Why? It is invasive treatment that can harm kids.

Oh come on. The minute someone is born, they are naked, and their genitalia is seen. That's how doctors figure out they are male or female.

That's definitely "invasive", but should be done. We can't say "omg it harms kids to look at their genitals, what are you, you a pedo? omg!! omg omg".

You know what's invasive? Not doing tests, thinking someone with boobs is female eventhough they have testes and letting a lie continue around in circles. Yes. People with CAIS have testes, so even if they didn't do more tests, they would see the testes, and figure out it's a male. Usually the testes are removed because they are underdeveloped and could turn cancerous. Doctors KNOW all the CAIS individuals are male. But either they don't tell the family, or if they do the family lies to the kids with CAIS that they are girls eventhough they aren't.

Want to know what's even more invasive? Not doing tests, telling CAIS people they are women eventhough they aren't, and when they come to the realization, it's too late. Speaking for myself, if I learned someone I thought was a "she" was a he instead of a "she", I would feel totally disgusted for the deception.

Or I can imagine if I had DSD, but found out about this way later, I would be very very angry because it means I did not know myself and the issues I had, all because of people like you advocating for doctors not to do more tests at birth to find out if someone has DSDs.

Your intention is to not do tests, to keep things hidden until some day people with DSD figure out they have DSD. This is outright disgusting and horrible. Making people use false language because you think "it's invasive to look at the genes and organs of kids, to figure out they have DSD". You must be a liberal.

You DO understand everyone does tests later on right? All it takes is look at genes, or the inside of the body with a device to show if there are underdeveloped organs.

People like you are the reason we are in this mess right now.

Anyway, there is no way testing kids to see if they have DSDs is invasive, just like vaccinating kids is not invasive, or bathing kids is not invasive, or examining kids' blood to see if they have other diseases is not invasive.

In what mess? There is no mess at all.

It is a mess. You are too blinded to see it.

she did asked you questions here and previously. And other people did same, but you never answering them.

Lmfao what questions? "Why are you ignoring all the questions and answers" was the only one repetitively being asked. Please list the other questions here if there are any, because I saw none.

[–]BiologyIsReal[M] 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

The fact that you think individuals with CAIS have visible testes tells me that, at best, you only skimed the links I gave you. So, I've just baned you for 14 days. Use this time to actually read about what you have been talking about.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Oh come on. The minute someone is born, they are naked, and their genitalia is seen. That's how doctors figure out they are male or female.

No, doctors are making blood test or ultrasound during pregnancy, around 10-12th week of pregnancy. And when kid is born they are only checking by genitals if everything correct.

Both males and females with CAIS are looking like a female when born. To check if it is male or female for sure, they will need to do X-rays and blood test of a newborn. That's pretty invasive and does not worth it to do, because it will take a lot of resources and can hurt mother or kid, especially when speaking about such rare condition that majority of doctors and midwives will never ever encounter in their whole life and medical practice. And this condition is not causing any troubles until 16-20 years anyways, unlike some intersex conditions which require saving after birth, but those conditions do not have ambigious genitals looking like female ones - they have "penis-looking" genitals instead of "vulva-looking genitals" and they are starting to vomit and similar stuff.

You DO understand everyone does tests later on right? All it takes is look at genes, or the inside of the body with a device to show if there are underdeveloped organs.

But why do it for every kid if only one in few millions girls born will have it? Why do it on rest? It is not saving anyones lives and can do harm - either physical or psychological. Why are you so obsessed with this question about extremely rare condition?

People with CAIS have testes, so even if they didn't do more tests, they would see the testes, and figure out it's a male.

Those testes are underdeveloped and inside body, they are not seen when you see them naked. People with CAIS looking completely like a female when naked, they even have labia and underdeveloped clitoris. So you can't really say it is not a woman by such inspection.

Looks like you think that testes are outside and visible, that's why you are saying those ignorant and very weird things, I suppose. If you thought that testes are visible, then your posts starting to make at least a little sense, actually.

Your intention is to not do tests, to keep things hidden until some day people with DSD figure out they have DSD.

As I said, DSD which are posing danger to life are seen early and without tests. Most are found out before or during puberty because of abnormalities or other health issues. Almost all DSD conditions are unambigiously male or female looking as well. So you will never confuse them with other sex. Only very few of 40 conditions have any ambiguity to them.

It is a mess. You are too blinded to see it.

Which mess? That one in two millions women who have completely female phenotype, was raised as a girl and maybe not even knowing themselves about their condition, is someone with CAIS? I don't see any mess here. They aren't much stronger than other women, they can't impregnate, they do not have "male entitlement" nurtured, and it is impossible to tell that they have CAIS without special medical tests. Obviously if they are starting to date with someone, they should enclose it, and as far as I know - majority who know of their situation do.

because I saw none.

Just doing ctrl+F on "?" showed me there were few.

And you not answered my question:

What do you mean "now we know"?

We know what? And we - who? And why only now? This information about CAIS condition is known for long time now. Or you mean you think that woman you was chatting has CAIS? I think she said she had CAH, it is completely different condition, not even remotely related.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

And last question - WHY this even matters at all? Why this extremely small percent of people born with health issues do matter to you so much that you want to dehumanize us? What the difference we will make? Only around 1% of people with DSD are identifying as trans or non-binary. Even if we were 3rd sex, that would change nothing, because we would not be 3rd sex, there 40 VERY different conditions (and sometimes they are combined), so there will be at least 42 sexes then. And each sex will be just 0.0009% or less of population, when males and females would be around 49-51%. Even if we were able to change sex at will - that would change nothing either, because only 1% of intersex people are identifying as transgender, and there already much more transgender people than all intersex people combined. At least 99.99993% of transgender or non-binary people are NOT intersex (as only around 0.00007% of transgender people are intersex in biggest estimate, in realistic 0.000035% or less)

In USA aproximately around 0.7% of population are trans or non-binary, this means that if you take all intersex people in the whole world - there still will not be enough to fill all transgender or non-binary people in USA alone. This means that overwhelming majority of transgender and non-binary people are unambigiously and completely male or female. Only one in 20 000 transgender people can be intersex.

So all this dehumanizing of our conditions and taking our extremely rare and painful condition as some kind of "gotcha" in every single discussion is just disingenious and stupid.

You'd better donate to DSD-Families charity instead, if you really care about us.

2/2

(Did not know here is limit on characters per message)

[–]IWoreWhat 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

So now you're saying there are more than 2 sexes, 3 to 42 sexes. GCs keep contradicting themselves ...

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is not what she wrote...

You are lying about what other people said.

You did same yesterday about words of Collin, you did it few weeks ago about words of other people. You are misrepresenting people's words.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

CAN YOU FKN READ?

I am saying that WITH YOUR LOGIC THERE WILL BE 42 SEXES. I did not said there 42 sexes. I said your logic is flawed. That you are wrong even if apply your logic. But you ignoring EVERYTHING is being told for you about our painful medical conditions. And you are trying to use us as canon fodder, and ignoring all we saying. You can't even read what I said AND LYING ABOUT WORDS I WROTE.

Do you have understanding comprehension or you just don't care and ignoring 99% of my posts.

As I said in other post - I am blocking you. You are not acting in good faith - you are ignoring all questions we asking you and you are asking same questions again and again, ignoring all answers.

People should just poat links to you where we answered questions.

And stop using extremely rare and painful disorders as gotcha. I already answered that even if we more than 2 sexes - it doesnot matter in trans discussions and explained why. So can you just stop?

Either act in good faith and discuss or good bye.

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now you're just being an asshole. Why?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Almost none of that is on topic. The existence of intersex is totally irrelevant to whether trans people can be considered the opposite sex.

Trying to argue that intersex people are part male & part female doesn't magically change the fact that the only thing cosmetic surgery can do is help make parts of a male body merely resemble parts of a female one. He remains just as male as before & no more female than before.

Regarding hormones: if you take medication to compensate for your have high-blood pressure, are you a) someone with high blood pressure on medication, or b) someone with low blood pressure?

You might as well just ask "what if they pass?". Because that's all your question really comes down to. Michael Jackson no longer looked black after he changed his hair, skin & nose. Does resembling a white person = being white? Use trans-white people like MJ next time, instead of intersex people, to compare to transgender people.