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[–]SnowAssMan 19 insightful - 4 fun19 insightful - 3 fun20 insightful - 4 fun -  (128 children)

Kind of obvious isn't it? Men in women's spaces is the problem. E.g. men's sports, toilets, prisons etc. were already unisex. Anyone can use/join them. It's the female spaces where men aren't allowed. There is actually no such thing as a "men's space", so women using them doesn't affect anyone except themselves. It's for their own good not to use them, not men's.

Also, practically everyone here was on reddit, on feminist subs. We all got expunged &/or our subs banned because some men decided that a movement dedicated to examining & fighting against sexism wasn't affirming their self-identification as "valid women", due to feminist analysis far too often acknowledging the existence of sex – which is the height of transphobia, didn't you know?

I doubt there are any transgender females who want to be in men's prisons lol but the trans-movement, like any movement, is androcentric, which in their topsy-turvy world would probably be called transgynocentric, or something equally ridiculous. So they don't care that changing rights to be based on felt-gender will actually be detrimental to the female members (the vast majority, but clearly a social minority) of their community.

Heck, it's mostly trans men who insist people use terms like "pregnant people" and "menstruators"

Wrong. The pressure is coming from the male ones. They just blame the female ones. The female ones generally keep out of everyone's way. The homosexual ones aren't as hostile either. The main issue are the het male trans – the most dogmatic, obnoxious & relentless ones with the most entitlement & least legitimacy.

Barring the white ones, "transgender people" are just feminine homosexuals in every culture on the damn planet.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Men in women's spaces is the problem. E.g. men's sports, toilets, prisons etc. were already unisex. Anyone can use/join them. It's the female spaces where men aren't allowed. There is actually no such thing as a "men's space", so women using them doesn't affect anyone except themselves. It's for their own good not to use them, not men's.

Not true. Women historically were explicitly barred from many sports and spaces such as schools, universities, clubs, most of the clergy. Still many clubs, fraternities and institutions like the Catholic hierarchy of the priesthood are for males only. In most of the Islamic world women can't be imams, and they certainly can't be mullahs and ayatollahs, and they are only allowed in one small part of mosques behind a curtain. Same goes for orthodox Jewish sects; only males get to become rebbes and devote their lives to study of the sacred texts, and at worship and social events like weddings women & girls are kept off to one side - or to a balcony - separate from the boys & men.

When previously all-male institutions like the university I attended decide to admit females, many had to amend their charters and other founding documents which said they were only for men. After I graduated, the alumni clubs only permitted women in certain parts of the premises - we were barred from the pools and gym, for example. When I was growing up, women were explicitly barred from applying for a vast number of jobs and positions. Women were also were not permitted to participate in distance running at the community or club level, or to partake in marathons.

There are still many private clubs around that are male-only, or if they are mixed-sex they have male-only spaces like the Men's Grill and Men's Lounge.

[–]SnowAssMan 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

That's not the same thing at all. Women were barred from the public sphere in general & it's been a long, slow process where they were allowed to participate. Once women were allowed into the public sphere, in some instances they got their own sex-specific institutions, as opposed to just using the original ones, ulike in all the other instances.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

Women in the 20th century in the Western world were not "barred from the public sphere in general" LOL. At all. Women were allowed in a vast number of spheres and spaces. Women could even be US Congress members and US Senators, state legislators, governors, mayors, civic leaders. In the 20th century, India, Israel, the UK and Pakistan all had female prime ministers.

But for the first three-quarters of the 20th century, the vast majority of women in the Western world were barred from many specific jobs and professions because of our sex. There were plenty of women working in all sorts of factories, offices and business enterprises throughout the 20th century - but only in certain jobs (except for during WW2). Women weren't kept at home chained to the stove, barefoot and pregnant throughout - women were allowed to participate in the larger world outside the home, but with a few exceptions like Indira Gandhi and Golda Meir, only if we kept to our place. Women could work in business, but mainly as secretaries and file clerks. Women could work in restaurants, but almost always only as waitresses, not as cooks or chefs. Women could work in banks, but as tellers, not as loan officers and executives...

In the 19th century, women responded to being barred from male institutions by setting up some female-only analogous ones such as women's colleges and universities, some as sister schools to the male ones (Radcliffe, Pembroke, Barnard), as well as medical schools, and of course women's hospitals and health clinics. But for the most part, this was not the case in the 20th century. When women were allowed into areas that previously we'd been barred from in the 20th century, particularly in the 1960s and onwards, we did not seek or get our own sex-specific institutions in general - except that is, for facilities like rape refuges, DV shelters, consciousness raising groups, support groups, rehab programs. Women who started attending Yale in the late 60s didn't seek or set up a Yale 4 Women. Women who entered various professions like law, medicine & business in unprecedented numbers in the 1970s did not set up women's law, medical and business schools - or aim for separatism in the world of work after graduation. Women who fought for the right to run in marathons did not seek to have a separate NY Marathon and Boston Marathon for women - in fact, when the NY marathon tried to segregate women, all the female runners protested and refused.

Where existing institutions already existed and sex mattered, such as in scholastic sports & dormitory provisions, women in the 20th century set up female-specific sports programs, places (locker rooms, loos, dorm rooms or sections of dorms) and social spaces (sororities, women's centers) within the extant institutions - but by and large, we did not advocate for creating a whole bunch of entirely separate institutions. We wanted our own locker rooms and sports competitions, but no girls & women in JHS, HSs, colleges & universities were advocating for our own female-only gymnasiums, field houses, ball fields, track & field facilities, courts, rinks, pools, boathouses and such. And where sex did not matter - such as in classrooms, libraries and labs, we wanted to learn and live in a mixed sex environment. In many previously all-male universities, women didn't even want separate housing - we preferred to to live in mixed-sex dorms where sex segregation only occurred by floor, section, pods or room, and where both sexes could come & go freely at all hours.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

We generally agree, especially when not arbitrarily limited to the 20th century. There was a time when women weren't allowed to get a higher education, or most jobs. I think that is sufficiently concordant with my earlier statement.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Some women" always had power and privileges, even in 15th century or 5th centuty, but it was mostly achieved through class - being rich, owning land of husband who died. Those are outliers.

When "all women" received those same freedoms and abilities is another question.

"On the West" it started in 1910-20s and ended at around 1970-90s, in some European country women were not able to own a land or open credit card without man's approval up until 1980s, so women weren't "completely barren from public life" (I think it is the phrasing why MT was so pedantic), but were severely limited to women, except few, and last canton was forced to do so in 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland

In most "Western" countries this process was around 1940-60s, so at least half of 20th century women were limited in freedoms in "Western" countries.

In many developing countries situation is severely worse:

AE gave women voting rights just in 2011, and not even fully, as women were allowed to run for elections only in 2015 there, but only for municipal ones.

In Omen and UAE this happened only in 2005-6. So few years ago.

In Russia there were 500 jobs forbidden for women to work at until 2019 (including ones like being metro train driver), and since 2019 there only 100 such jobs, mostly ones that require heavy lifting or are close to military services or connected with dangeroues chemicals.

In 2019 Saudi Arabia allowed women to go outside of house or a job on their own, without male permission and without male guardian: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-women-idUSKCN1UR5TB

And so on, and on, and on, and on.

[–]divingrightintowork 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I generally support private orgs and spaces having their own rules that can be exclusionary. This includes churches.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (121 children)

Also, practically everyone here was on reddit, on feminist subs. We all got expunged &/or our subs banned because some men decided that a movement dedicated to examining & fighting against sexism wasn't affirming their self-identification as "valid women", due to feminist analysis far too often acknowledging the existence of sex – which is the height of transphobia, didn't you know?

Trans men were doing the same thing. At least half of the users on r/gendercynical are AFAB. r/FTM has 20+ threads complaining about "TERFs".

Wrong. The pressure is coming from the male ones. They just blame the female ones.

It is a trans man who got Always to remove the female symbol from their products. It is an enby AFAB who wrote the article that we need to stop associating periods with women.

https://www.health.com/mind-body/lgbtq-health/menstruating-as-non-binary-person

https://aninjusticemag.com/stop-calling-pads-and-tampons-feminine-products-42aa9d27775f

[–]Penultimate_Penance 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Putting women at higher risk of sexual harassment, assault & rape, completely destroying women's even playing field in sports and erasing women's sex based right in the law is more pressing issue than whether or not Always has the female symbol on its products. I don't give a shit if Always removes the female symbol. Destroying women's sex based rights is a bigger deal than a company changing it's package design. Hence why Transwomen's entitlement aka male entitlement must be stopped. Men's feelings do not matter more than women's rights.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I'm glad you think that way! But the former r/gendercritical had an entire thread complaining about the female symbol being removed.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

What they are doing is stupid and annoying and but it’s less harmful than transwomen. Yeah, they suck for undermining other women but they aren’t the rapists or the violent men taking away women’s protections.

Why do you want us to focus on transmen so much?

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

One of the leading architects of the campaign, and the strategies, for removing policies and provisions that provide women & girls with protections in the Western world is Stephen Whittle, a trans-identified female who is a law professor and "law scholar." Whittle, age 66, came out as trans in 1974 and started taking testosterone in 1975. Whittle, a founder of Press for Change, is a principal force in the writing & passage of the UK's Gender Recognition Act of 2004, a piece of legislation that removed a lot of protections for female people, and paved the road for the removal of many more. Whittle alsi is a leading figure behind the Yogyakarta Principles.

James Morton, a trans-identified female, of Scottish Trans Alliance was one of the principal architects of the strategy in the UK to clear the way for males to gain access into all female spaces by working behind the scenes to get trans-identified males into prisons on the sly whilst the larger public was unaware, so that no one on the outside would realize what was happening until it was already a fair accompli.

In the USA, one of the major organizations with maximum clout pushing to get males into female sports, locker rooms, toilets, shelters, rape refuges, prisons and so on for many years now has been the ACLU, and its lead attorney in these cases is Chase Strangio, a trans-identified female.

These highly-placed female people might be not be the ones who cooked up transgenderism in the first place, or the ones pulling all the strings, but they definitely have done and are doing their part. I think we underplay their role at our peril.

Immediately, automatically minimizing the damage done by these female misogynists strikes me as weirdly sexist. Seems the dangers they pose and the roles they play are written off as really not all that harmful coz they are female, and it's assumed that as female people they really couldn't hurt a fly, so to speak. Or that's how it's coming across to me.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wow so transmen really are just as terrible as the rest of the tra movement. Wonder why gb wants us to fight against them so much

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Oh c'mon. No, not all "transmen" are just as terrible as the rest of TRAs. But some are. I was disagreeing with your claim that

What they are doing is stupid and annoying and but it’s less harmful than transwomen. Yeah, they suck for undermining other women but they aren’t the rapists or the violent men taking away women's protections.

Fact is, it's not just rapists & violent men who are taking away women's protections; they're not even the principal parties doing it. Women's protections are being removed by attorneys, political strategists, lobbyists, legislators, law enforcement, jurists, sports governing bodies, school administrators, government officials and establishment orgs like the ACLU, HCR, NOW, NCLR and the USA's Democratic Party. Some of the people playing key roles in the removal of women's protections are females who identify as the opposite sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not arguing against your correction. They’re doing the same things as tra to harm women, just as bad.

I don’t think that ‘not all xyz’ arguments are ever necessary. We know nobody is saying every single individual in a group.

As a group, transmen are undermining other women the same way tra is. How is that not just as bad?

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (112 children)

Neither of those sources were even on topic, let alone support your claim that it was female transgender people who pressured Always to remove the female symbol.

This link is the relevant one on the matter. Nowhere does it credit an individual trans activist. None of the individuals mentioned are female trans people, so thanks for wasting my time with an unnecessary lie:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/always-remove-female-symbol-sanitary-products-packaging-n1069721

As to your r/FTM complaining about "TERFs", so what? What is that meant to prove? Practically every left-leaning sub does the same.

Oh "someone wrote an article". Who hasn't? Cherry-picking. You could just as easily find an article written by a male transgender person saying the exact same thing. It's just an article.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (111 children)

I'm saying trans men and AFAB people were also instrumental in getting all the gender critical subs removed. It wasn't just trans women and AMAB people.

[–]SnowAssMan 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (110 children)

Based on what? If women actually behaved like that we'd be rid of all those men's rights groups ages ago. Unfortunately only men plan & make targeted attacks on subreddits in large enough groups to get a sub banned. If we only had transgender adult human females to contend with all the subs would still be there. I guarantee it.

Maybe ask the old mods of any feminist sub where the relentless harassment consistently came from. I'm sure they'll confirm what I'm saying. I remember what r/askpinkpillers was like. 99% anti-feminist male users.

FYI, sex is only "assigned" when it's ambiguous i.e. never in the cases of transgender people. The terms for the sexes are 'male' & 'female'. You don't ever say "reassigned female after transition", or something equally ridiculous, do you? You don't hesitate to describe an adult human male simply as 'female', if he self-identifies that way. Why the double standard?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (109 children)

Based on what? If women actually behaved like that we'd be rid of all those men's rights groups ages ago.

Trans people did not "rid" the gender critical groups. We just got them banned from reddit. They created Ovarit, and found new homes on spinster.xyz and Saidit. Same for any other hate groups, they will create their own platforms.

Unfortunately only men plan & make targeted attacks on subreddits in large enough groups to get a sub banned.

So you know the sex of all those anonymous internet users?

FYI, sex is only "assigned" when it's ambiguous i.e. never in the cases of transgender people. The terms for the sexes are 'male' & 'female'. You don't ever say "reassigned female after transition", or something equally ridiculous, do you? You don't hesitate to describe an adult human male simply as 'female', if he self-identifies that way.

When you're assigned or reassigned a sex, you have no control over that. When you transition, you have control. No one told you you had dysphoria and to transition. You came to that conclusion yourself.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (75 children)

GB, everyone who reads your posts gets that you are an authoritarian oligarch who thinks people with different views to your own should not have basic rights to things like free speech, bodily privacy and physical safety. But what I find perplexing is the way you take such obvious pride in ascribing to beliefs that are so tyrannical.

When you're assigned or reassigned a sex, you have no control over that. When you transition, you have control.

None of us is assigned our sex. It's written in our DNA from the moment of conception. Sex differences have been observed in human zygote placental cells 5 days after fertilization.

None of us has control over our sex or any other aspects of our genetics. People who use wishful thinking, costume changes, cosmetics, hormones, surgeries and bullying of others in an attempt to "transition" from one sex to the other, or out of sex entirely, might have a temporary illusion of control - but it's only an illusion, and usually a short-lived one at that. Claiming trans people "have control" over our sex is like saying some special caste of humans can stave off mortality.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (74 children)

GB, everyone who reads your posts gets that you are an authoritarian oligarch

For one, I am not an oligarch as I have no power to control the majority of the government.

who thinks people with different views to your own should not have basic rights to things like free speech,

I believe in free speech in the conventional sense. When most people say free speech, they mean consequences for their speech should not come from the government.

bodily privacy and physical safety.

I support bodily privacy and physical safety. I said I wanted separate stalls for everyone. I just don't believe privacy has anything to do with sex segregation.

People who use wishful thinking, costume changes, cosmetics, hormones, surgeries and bullying of others in an attempt to "transition" from one sex to the other, or out of sex entirely, might have a temporary illusion of control - but it's only an illusion, and usually a short-lived one at that.

There are people who are trans for years and it's not an illusion.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

But it’s been explained to you that for others, privacy is absolutely a sex segregated thing. You disagreeing with it doesn’t make others wrong or their needs disappear. Stalls will not help preventing cameras planted by men. Stalls will not stop creepy conversations. Stalls can be blocked by stronger male bodies and now the assault is happening in a locked space.

Stalls do not solve anything other than the “problem” of males lacking access to women’s spaces. Calling the males women does nothing to change this.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (6 children)

But it’s been explained to you that for others, privacy is absolutely a sex segregated thing.

Everyone views privacy differently. I personally feel privacy when only fat brunette people can see me change. Are we going to start segregating people by weight now?

Stalls will not help preventing cameras planted by men.

You're right. Prosecution is the only thing that will stop men from implanting cameras.

Stalls can be blocked by stronger male bodies and now the assault is happening in a locked space.

I support cameras in common areas of the bathrooms (except for the stalls). Anyone who assaults anyone, physically, sexually or whatever will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (64 children)

I believe in free speech in the conventional sense. When most people say free speech, they mean consequences for their speech should not come from the government.

On this thread you've bragged about the role you've played in getting women who disagree with you

banned from reddit.

Reddit being "the front page of the internet" and one of most popular social media sites in the world by far.

Sorry, such views & actions do not indicate that you "believe in free speech in the conventional sense." They say the opposite, in fact.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (63 children)

On this thread you've bragged about the role you've played in getting women who disagree with you

I did participate in r/gendercynical, but I merely pointed out AFAB people (including myself) were also instrumental in getting GC subs banned. By the way, Reddit is a private-owned site and can make their own rules. Free speech merely refers to the government.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For one, I am not an oligarch as I have no power to control the majority of the government.

This response is just more evidence of your solipsism. I said your posts show

that you are an authoritarian oligarch

Not that you are a member of an authoritarian oligarchy yourself, LOL. Oligarchy means rule by a small number of people. Lots of people who are oligarchs are not themselves members of the ruling group.

I support bodily privacy and physical safety. I said I wanted separate stalls for everyone.

But as I've pointed out on other threads, separate stalls in locker rooms & change rooms do not increase physical safety in either single-sex or mixed sex spaces. They actually make children/teens of both sexes and women much more vulnerable to physical assault by larger, stronger persons - as well as to the direct, in-person voyeurism of male perverts and the new voyeurism through tech of male sex offenders who place cameras in such places. Which is why schools around the world got rid of coat closets, and even Roman Catholic churches have had a rethink about the designs of confessionals.

[–]SnowAssMan 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Same for any other hate groups

The trans movement is all about appropriation & erasure of sex & by extension of women & homosexuals. GC is just a reaction to that. It counters hate groups like the MRM & the trans MRM. "Misandry" doesn't exist. It's just a silencing tactic against anyone exposing misogyny. Calling feminists man-haters is the oldest anti-feminist trick in the book. Misogynistic males come up with sexist slurs daily. Where are all the slurs GC is coining against men? If there were any, then trans adult human males wouldn't have a mental breakdown every time someone called them men, while hypocritically calling everyone "cis".

When you're assigned or reassigned a sex, you have no control over that

Assigned by Mother Nature then? Well it didn't happen at birth. You can't change sex btw. Just because your preferred sex does not match your sex that doesn't make your sex "assigned", it's just your sex, which is different from being your preferred sex. The terminology "assigned sex at birth" is appropriated from intersex people's experience.

No one told you you had dysphoria and to transition. You came to that conclusion yourself

Social contagion is the reason for all the het girls. It's also a really androcentric view to need to mutilate yourself. It's just not necessary if you're female. People convinced them that changing sex is possible. Parents & society didn't tell their gay kids who developed a cross-gender identification that being gay was possible & okay. Western society is probably responsible for gender dysphoria, which is why cultures outside the West don't experience it, hence why the icd-11 doesn't include it, because it's not universal, just Western.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (31 children)

The trans movement is all about appropriation & erasure of sex & by extension of women & homosexuals. GC is just a reaction to that. It counters hate groups like the MRM & the trans MRM.

The GC movement is about blaming erasing trans people.

"Misandry" doesn't exist. It's just a silencing tactic against anyone exposing misogyny. Calling feminists man-haters is the oldest anti-feminist trick in the book.

If it weren't for posts like this, we wouldn't be saying feminists are man hating.

Misogynistic males come up with sexist slurs daily. Where are all the slurs GC is coining against men?

GCs on Ovarit and Saidit constantly use slurs against trans people, such as narcissist, delusional, fetishistic, lying little shit, mental case, fujoshi, YAOI, "everyone wants to be oppressed" just to name a few. I didn't make up these slurs. They are from actual GC threads.

If there were any, then trans adult human males wouldn't have a mental breakdown every time someone called them men, while hypocritically calling everyone "cis".

Trans men don't have a breakdown from being called men.

Assigned by Mother Nature then? Well it didn't happen at birth. You can't change sex btw. Just because your preferred sex does not match your sex that doesn't make your sex "assigned", it's just your sex, which is different from being your preferred sex. The terminology "assigned sex at birth" is appropriated from intersex people's experience.

Intersex people did not invent the term "assigned sex at birth".

Social contagion is the reason for all the het girls. It's also a really androcentric view to need to mutilate yourself. It's just not necessary if you're female. People convinced them that changing sex is possible. Parents & society didn't tell their gay kids who developed a cross-gender identification that being gay was possible & okay.

There is a thing called dysphoria and it's not caused by social contagion. I was born female. The thought of me having a penis grosses me out. If I was born male, I would feel great distress and want to transition via hormones and surgery so I wouldn't fee; distress in my body. Most of us TRAs are supportive of LGB communities. From high school I always said "it's OK to be gay" to homophobic classmates, was happy when gay marriage was legalized in my state when I was finishing 9th grade and I still supported the trans community at that time.

Western society is probably responsible for gender dysphoria, which is why cultures outside the West don't experience it, hence why the icd-11 doesn't include it, because it's not universal, just Western.

Please provide me a link to data on trans populations by country. Otherwise, this statement is meaningless.

[–]adungitit 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

If it weren't for posts like this, we wouldn't be saying feminists are man hating.

You mean the post that is accurate, but is "manhating" because it doesn't lie and gaslight that women are the problem and that the matriarchy is a thing? You have been given statistics and just basic fucking observations of the world around you. Your response? Lying through your teeth and ignoring anything that puts a dent into your lying. When you tire of lying, you disappear.

GCs on Ovarit and Saidit constantly use slurs against trans people, such as narcissist, delusional, fetishistic, lying little shit, mental case, fujoshi, YAOI, "everyone wants to be oppressed" just to name a few. I didn't make up these slurs. They are from actual GC threads.

Those are not slurs. You could describe them as insults or stereotypes or just descriptions, but they are not slurs. Slurs are actual words uniquely targeted at a specific group for the purpose of insulting them. Calling fetishists or narcissists what they are is not a "slur". Hell, even calling marginalised groups those words isn't a slur, because a "slur" is a very specific thing, not just any insult.

There is a thing called dysphoria and it's not caused by social contagion. I was born female. The thought of me having a penis grosses me out. If I was born male, I would feel great distress and want to transition via hormones and surgery so I wouldn't fee

Right, you said this before (because of course you did), and were told that this "dysphoria", "hormones" and "surgery" aren't even needed to be trans in any way, and that claiming otherwise makes you transphobic. And, of course, you conveniently disappeared, but knowing you're wrong didn't stop you from parroting the exact same thing here, and it won't stop you from parroting it elsewhere.

In every thread, you are proven wrong, you always fail to address anything that was said, you constantly lie through your teeth even when faced with statistics, only to disappear and reappear elsewhere and parrot the exact same lying. Even with this very limited engagement, when the reality of female oppression becomes impossible even for you to ignore, you switch to claiming you can't be a misogynist because of these specific instances where you've oh-so-bravely virtue-signalled for equal rights of various disenfranchised groups, waiting for an applause. None of this disproves your misogyny when you consistently lie, gaslight and espouse misogynistic views and male myths that are directly harmful to women. But the fact that QT "feminists" are so consistently misogynistic for the sake of male approval does prove a good point in regards to how self-hating a woman has to be in order for QT to make sense.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is a thing called dysphoria and it's not caused by social contagion. I was born female. The thought of me having a penis grosses me out. If I was born male, I would feel great distress and want to transition via hormones and surgery so I wouldn't fee; distress in my body.

I think you need to listen more to what "trans women" themselves say. As we told you the other day, most of them don't feel distressed by their penises and most of them, in fact, do keep them. Also you can technically be diagnosed with gender dysphoria without experiencing distress about your body. The diagnostic criteria relies a lot in the same gender roles who you want to abolish, too.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (24 children)

Gender is a social construct. Sexes & sexual orientations have biological underpinnings & can be measured. Transgender has never been proven to exist. Transgender people never used to exist even as a concept (in the modern trans movement sense of a "woman trapped in a man's body") & don't exist in other cultures. So what's there to erase? A modern, Western trend? It'd be like erasing emos. They'll erase themselves eventually, just like the emos did, once teens find something else to obsess over. Autogynaephiles exist & feminine/passive homosexuals exist, which are what trans people really are – types of men, not types of women. Not erasing women ≠ erasing GNC men.

False equivalence. Again, count the misogynistic slurs. You'll be at it all day. The only "slurs" you could possibly find for men, were made & used almost exclusively by men. Those insults (e.g. narcissist is not a slur, it's just an insult, like dumbass, dumbass) are aimed at men specifically, not trans people generally. Slurs against trans people aren't even allowed on this sub.

There are videos on youtube where trans adult human males are losing their minds over being called "sir" lol the fact that they can get so triggered by regular, innocuous words illustrates that they don't experience being called worse things, like genuine slurs.

Assigned at birth is a term related to people with DSDs. Trans people are not intersex, their sex is unambiguous, therefore there'd be no reason to assign them a sex. If you're holding a male baby, completely lacking in any congenital conditions, there is no reason to "decide" on their sex. The trans movement is appropriating the term because they think it helps undermine their sex.

ROGD is caused by social contagion & it's the reason all these middle-class, young het girls think they are trans nowadays, when this trend never existed within this demographic previously. It's obviously not biologically determined, otherwise what has changed about all these girls' biology?

If you had been male, you would not have had an issue with that. The only people who seem to have that issue are some feminine homosexuals & autogynacephiles. And the former group is mostly temporary since up to 95% desist.

Gender dysphoria is a Western thing, hence why the icd-11 doesn't refer to it as a "dysphoria" (a type of depression) & does not define it as "distressing":

"Some cultures have three defined genders: man, woman, and effeminate man. For example, in Samoa, the fa'afafine, a group of feminine males, are entirely socially accepted. The fa'afafine do not have any of the stigma or distress typically associated in most cultures with deviating from a male/female gender role. This suggests the distress so frequently associated with GID in a Western context is not caused by the disorder itself, but by difficulties encountered from social disapproval by one's culture"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

"Some contemporary Zapotec peoples in Mexico embody the traditional third gender role known as muxe. They consider themselves to be "muxe in men's bodies," who do the work that their culture usually associates with women. When asked by transgender researchers in 2004 if they ever considered surgical transition, "none of the respondents found the idea interesting, but rather strange" as their essence as muxe is not dependent on what type of body they are in."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit

"Compared to the DSM-5, the ICD-11 replaces the state of distress associated with that incongruence by the terms dislike or discomfort with less psychopathological connotations. In addition, only two diagnostic criteria must be met. This diagnosis could, therefore, be fulfilled without wanting to get rid of the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of the felt gender. Feeling dislike with the primary or secondary sexual characteristics, along with the desire to be treated and accepted as a person of the felt gender, would be sufficient to make the diagnosis of gender incongruence and would not imply the desire to undergo medical-surgical interventions to achieve a gender confirmation."

https://www.mentalhealthjournal.org/articles/gender-incongruence-is-no-longer-a-mental-disorder.html

The reason GC generally knows more about this topic than QT is because we are the atheists, while you are the theists. Most of us started out QT, but then we read a little too much.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (23 children)

Gender is a social construct. Sexes & sexual orientations have biological underpinnings & can be measured.

I agree.

Transgender people never used to exist even as a concept (in the modern trans movement sense of a "woman trapped in a man's body") & don't exist in other cultures.

Here are some trans men from the 20th century: Alan L. Hart, Amelio Robles Ávila, Willmer ‘Little Ax” Broadnax, and Charley Parkhurst, to name a few.

So what's there to erase? A modern, Western trend?

Thailand has a large trans community.

https://www.connectsavannah.com/savannah/why-are-there-so-many-transgender-women-in-thailand/Content?oid=2855178

https://theculturetrip.com/asia/thailand/articles/a-brief-history-of-thailands-transgender-community/

https://thailand505.com/why-are-there-so-many-transgender-ladyboys-in-thailand/

India passed trans rights laws.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/01/what-does-indias-transgender-community-want/

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/12/04/784398783/india-just-passed-a-trans-rights-bill-why-are-trans-activists-protesting-it

It'd be like erasing emos. They'll erase themselves eventually, just like the emos did, once teens find something else to obsess over.

The difference with trends is they last a few years (at most a decade). Emos were popular in 2010-2012. Bangs were popular in 08-09 and the fidget spinner trend lasted a year. There have been trans people always in history, as I pointed out above.

False equivalence. Again, count the misogynistic slurs. You'll be at it all day. The only "slurs" you could possibly find for men, were made & used almost exclusively by men.

The slurs I listed are used mostly by women on Ovarit.

There are videos on youtube where trans adult human males are losing their minds over being called "sir" lol the fact that they can get so triggered by regular, innocuous words illustrates that they don't experience being called worse things, like genuine slurs.

Trans males don't get triggered by being called "sir". Trans females do. Though I agree it's wrong.

Assigned at birth is a term related to people with DSDs.

Link me a source where people with DSDs invented that term.

ROGD is caused by social contagion & it's the reason all these middle-class, young het girls think they are trans nowadays, when this trend never existed within this demographic previously. It's obviously not biologically determined, otherwise what has changed about all these girls' biology?

Yuo! Every single middle class girl wants to be a boy. But children from other socio-economic classes are never trans.

If you had been male, you would not have had an issue with that.

I would.

The only people who seem to have that issue are some feminine homosexuals & autogynacephiles. And the former group is mostly temporary since up to 95% desist.

Detransition is rare. In a 2015 survey of nearly 28,000 people conducted by the U.S.-based National Center for Transgender Equality, only 8 percent of respondents reported detransitioning, and 62 percent of those people said they only detransitioned temporarily. The most common reason for detransitioning, according to the survey, was pressure from a parent, while only 0.4 percent of respondents said they detransitioned after realizing transitioning wasn’t right for them.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/media-s-detransition-narrative-fueling-misconceptions-trans-advocates-say-n1102686

Gender dysphoria is a Western thing, hence why the icd-11 doesn't refer to it as a "dysphoria" (a type of depression) & does not define it as "distressing":

ICD is for diseases. Transgender is not a disease.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao slurs. Tell me you don’t know what oppression is without using the word oppression.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Women working against their own rights in order to gain male approval has always been the norm, but at the end of the day it wouldn't be happening without patriarchal pressures. Hence why female trans people don't occupy a markedly different role in the discourse compared to other anti-feminist women trying to screw other women over.

[–]divingrightintowork 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Why would we care what other women do with their selves, or if they don't want to call their selves women anymore? Though if men have issue with women invading their intimate spaces, say women wearing shirts that say things like "three hole faggot," flooding gay bars and complaining about the transmisandry... we will stan for them and support them in keeping their spaces sex segregated and hope they'll do the same for us.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (27 children)

But GC feminists often say men's issues are not feminist issues, talk about how awful AMAB men are and don't defend men. Yet when trans men are "infiltrating" cis men's spaces, suddenly GCs stick up for them. I thought men's issues are not feminist issues? It just shows one of their main goals is to be anti-trans.

[–]divingrightintowork 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Do you understand what allyship is, yes or no? Women can understand and empathize with disregard for personal boundaries on the basis of sex.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Surely the point you're trying to make proves that GC is not anti-trans, since GC concentrates on the males so heavily, & not so much the females. It's almost as if their sex matters more than their trans-status. Most trans people are female, so how can it be argued that GC is anti-trans, when they largely ignore the demographic that comprises the largest segment of trans people?

The biggest problem are the heterosexual male ones i.e. the autogynaephiles. Expunge them. It'd be for everyone's benefit. The criminal element within the movement is practically exclusively autogynaephiles.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

But GC feminists often say men's issues are not feminist issues, talk about how awful AMAB men are and don't defend men.

Yes of course men's issues are not feminist issues, LOL. Feminism is for and about female people.

You also seem to have a very sex stereotypical view of "GC feminists" that makes it impossible for you to see that many of us have all sorts of loving relationships with men (fathers, uncles, brothers, colleagues, allies, neighbors, chums, sex partners, spouses) and a good number of us are mothers of boys & men.

[–]adungitit 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Women do not need to have a loving relationship with their oppressors in order for their views on male oppression of women to have legitimacy.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I never said that "women need to have to have a loving relationship with their oppressors." I said many GC feminists have all sorts of loving relationships with various men in our lives, from fathers, brothers & sons to neighbors & other people we interact with and rely on for all sorts of reasons. I think it's unrealistic, and sexist, to suggest that women can & should go through life without ever having a positive or loving relationship with any male person.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

I think it's unrealistic, and sexist, to suggest that women can & should go through life without ever having a positive or loving relationship with any male person.

That's not up to the woman one bit. The vast, vast majority of men are misogynistic and hold male supremacist views. The vast, vast majority of women with said "loving relationships with men" still constantly need to deal with misogyny, double standards and being thought of as lesser. Women not being thought of as subhuman isn't seen as in any way necessary for the majority of male-female relationships, where other things are supposed to make up for that.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Don't you think that's a little dire? I fully acknowledge that many men, perhaps even the majority, are sexist in some way. Does that mean that there are close to zero good men out there? Are those of us who do have positive relationships just fooling ourselves? If I suspected my partner thought of me as subhuman, I'd kick his ass to the curb immediately.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

Women convincing themselves that their partners "aren't as bad" tend to fool themselves, yes. The more feminist ones will be open about it at least, but still have to constantly deal with their partners' double standards and misogyny. The ones who "don't need feminism" will make jokes about how shitty living with men and having to wipe their asses is.

Does that mean that there are close to zero good men out there?

Yes. And that is not the fault of women. Women should be discouraged from dealing with men's misogyny until men get their act together.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I mean, based on my personal experiences with men, I can't agree with that. That's not my experience with my partner. It's also not my experience growing up with respect to either my father or grandfather. Maybe they're outliers, but surely their existence proves that there are some non-shitty men out there.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Excuse me if I find it hard to swallow that all those not-my-Nigels men are as enlightened as women wish they were, just as I find it hard to swallow that all the people saying they're "not sexist" really aren't sexist.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (11 children)

But I never see GCs speak out about other men's issues, like men not being taken seriously when they're abused or BPD in men. This is the only men's "issue" they are in solidarity with men.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Because that’s not an issue for women or one we can solve. Why would feminism, a movement for female people, focus on solving issues that effect men and are largely caused by men?

Why do you ignore the fact that feminism is not about men’s rights any more than it is about the rights of goddamn chickens.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

Then trans men "infiltrating" men's spaces is also not a women's issue or a conceen for feminism.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So we shouldn’t have empathy but we should fight to protect men from other men. Or are we banned from caring about things that aren’t feminism? You realise we are all multi faceted people capable of thinking about more than one thing, right? Do you think we’re a bunch of simpletons who can’t have more than one thought train?

Again, you gonna answer anything else or continue to ignore questions that you find difficult to answer? You’re bizarrely selective about what you will and won’t respond to.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But I never see GCs speak out about other men's issues, like men not being taken seriously when they're abused or BPD in men. This is the only men's "issue" they are in solidarity with men.

Maybe that's a reflection on your choices of whom you see and hang out with.

Many of us older women who are GC did activism and hands-on care for gay men, hemophiliac men and IV drug-using men during the AIDS crisis.

If you look into the history of how public attention came to be brought to issues like child abuse, child sex abuse and autism in the 1970, 80s and 90s, you'll find that many "GC" people fought just as hard for male people as for female people.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Correct. Men’s issues arent relevant to feminism. Having empathy for people having heterosexual people trying to convince homosexual people they are wrong about their own sexuality is just being a normal human. It’s not political, and isn’t mutually exclusive to being gc.

Gc people can and do say things that aren’t related to being gc. Seriously, do you want a 101 on feminism from somewhere better than Reddit randoms or garbage opinion pieces from babycenter or whatever other site you regularly reference?

A basic understanding of feminism that isn’t just Twitter slogans would really help you to understand what many of us are talking about.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Because women don't support men being shit towards them. Being against the patriarchy =/= being against all male rights. Men's "rights" that oppose women's rights are not supported by women (and this goes for male trans rights as well). Your desperation to appeal to anti-feminist male myths in order to make yourself seem better to men is really sad.

It just shows one of their main goals is to be anti-trans.

I though the feminazi are all about hating the poor poor men?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Because transmen aren’t undermining female rights or invading the spaces of a protected class.

Anything said about language/pronouns or ideology can be applied to both TW and TM, but aside from the trans people of either sex who pressure others about sex/sexuality, only transwomen are infringing on the rights of people they oppress and forcing entry into spaces meant to be a refuge from them. Transmen don’t undermine the safety, equality, or rights of men or boys. Transwomen routinely undermine the safety, equality, and rights of women and girls.

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Transmen don’t undermine the safety, equality, or rights of men or boys.

Though I agree about the safety part, and much of the equality part, I don't think it's entirely true to say females who identify as the opposite sex don't undermine the rights of men or boys. Lots of males, adolescents especially, don't feel at all comfortable or happy sharing their toilets and locker rooms with girls who are now claiming to be male or non-binary. This is particularly true if the boys have grown up with the girls, but it applies to girls who are strangers as well. Also, lots of little boys are quite sexist, and they want the right to be able to build forts and clubhouses and have social gatherings such as playdates, sleepovers, birthday parties and camping trips where "No Girls Allowed" is the rule.

Finally, now that gay men are being told they're bigots if they don't want to eat or fuck "boi pussy" and the like, a lot of gay guys are starting be pissed off and to push back. Gay guys don't want to have to open up their all-male spaces and sex parties to females who ID as males. They find the whole idea homophobic. See Sheridan Sinclair's articles about this on Substack & in Gay & Lesbian News.

Males have been using opposite sex identity claims to try to encroach upon, perv on, dominate, prey on girls and women, and to roll back our rights, going back to the early 1970s and before. Whereas females claiming to be male or trans is a relatively new phenomenon, one that's only arisen since the 1990s - and in a big way over the past decade or so. Moreover, most of the females who've jumped on the trans train are teens, pre-teens or young adults. There is no huge cohort of female adults declaring themselves to be male in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s the way there is with male adults.

When females who identify as males start demanding admission to college fraternities, men's private clubs, the priesthood and the like, there will be much more push back on this. However, because "transmen" don't pose a physical threat to males, and because they've all gone through female socialization growing up, there will still be differences of kind as well as degree in the efforts they'll make in the future trying to encroach upon male spaces and male rights.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I was talking specifically about rights and the fact that transwomen are males imposing on female specific rights. I agree with everything you said, I just feel like those are all truths that apply to both TW and TM, so I tried to answer why I think there’s more focus on TW here by pointing out the thing that applies to them but not transmen. Female specific rights exist because of male privilege (amongst other things), which makes what transwomen are doing the biggest flex of male privilege I can think of. Whereas with transmen, everything they’re doing (obligatory some) transwomen do, but transmen aren’t undermining rights given to a group of people because their sex made it easier for the opposite sex to oppress and harm them. It doesn’t make the discomfort or sense of invasion that males may feel something to be dismissed, I just think for me, it’s one of the reasons that I think the focus is more on transwomen than transmen.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

We should also keep in mind that some of the biggest & most effective advocates for ending any kind of sex-segregation that is, or can be, of benefit to either sex are females who identify as males: Stephen Whittle and James Morton in the UK, and Chase Strangio in the US.

Moreover, organizations like Stonewall in the UK and the ACLU in the US have chosen to use trans-identified females like Freddie McConnell and Gavin Grimm as stalking horses for the ultimate larger goals of ending female-specific health services, eliminating single-sex provisions and opening up female spaces to males. In the US lawsuits filed & won on behalf of female students like Grimm who want to use the boys & men's toilets and locker rooms in schools are being used as the wedge cases to break the ground & first set legal precedents that in the end will let guys into the girls/women's facilities by the back door.

The ACLU, HRC and other trans lobby organizations realized a while back that the public isn't going to be enthusiastic if the cases they file to get "trans bathroom and locker room access" in US schools are prosecuted on behalf of creepy male teens like Lila Perry. Nobody in their right mind thinks it's suitable for someone like Perry to be changing & showering with the girls in school, or following them into the toilets - not with Lila wearing miniskirts clearly showing Lila's girlish boner bulge.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

female specific rights

What right's do females have that others don't?

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The answer depends on the jurisdiction. But where abortion is legal, the right to obtain one is specific to female people, as are rights that have to do with pregnancy, childbirth, maternity, breastfeeding and female-specific health care services (Pap smears, for example). In sport, the female category traditionally has been regarded as a closed or protected category (that should be) only open to female persons.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That’s... that’s not what female rights means...

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

now that gay men are being told they're bigots if they don't want to eat or fuck "boi pussy" and the like

Just to clarify, "boi pussy" has been a common term for anuses in the gay community way before trans issues took centre stage, as part of emulating misogyny.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Women stupidly following genderism are hurting themselves by acting like men are safe to be around. Nobody else. They undermine themselves and that’s it. Transwomen in women’s spaces are a risk to every woman there because of his maleness. His being there undermines the safety of all the women who use the facility.

Why would gc give a shit if some women are foolish enough to insist they are not like the other girls and think that men agree with their gender nonsense?

They’re ridiculous but they aren’t the ones who rape, kill, maim, spy upon, or harass women.

[–]adungitit 11 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 5 fun12 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

  1. Women do not present a threat to men, or other women for that matter. Female spaces exist and were set up in the first place to protect women from male harassment and violence, hence why men cannot be allowed in them. Male safety has never been in any way compromised by women which is why male spaces don't exist for male protection nor rely on female exclusion. A woman entering male spaces is taking a risk to herself, rather than presenting a danger to men. We can criticise ideologies that convince her men are harmless and not misogynistic, or that she's safe from misogyny because she put "he/their" on her twitter bio, but that's not really addressing the issues themselves.

  2. Female trans people occupy the same role as female people in general trying to play nice with the patriarchy to gain male respect or establish how "not like other girls" they are. Women throwing women under the bus for patriarchal approval is nothing new, even though female trans people love to think their mere existence somehow dismantles radical feminism. Ultimately, most women working against their interests do so for men's sake and approval. Remove men dominating with their misogyny and you remove women's tendency to haggle with the patriarchy as well.

  3. Women do not have the power to affect how men are viewed or how they behave. This is due to the aforementioned power dynamic between the sexes, as well as gendered upbringing and the historical precedent behind misogynistic myths and treatment of women. Men are the ones who invade female spaces, gaslight and preach misogyny, and benefit from a lifetime of socialisation fondling their egos, making them dominate conversations, drown out women's voices, think their opinions and feelings need to be centred by women no matter how misogynistic and full of shit they are, and overall have the kind of obnoxious baseless confidence combined with the refusal to take a step back and listen to women or even consider reality without their biased male lens. Men constantly abuse society's ignorance or plain wilful stupidity over women's bodies and their experiences to push misogynistic mythology and take what they want for themselves, and they constantly abuse women's meekness and politeness for it, because women are trained to bend over backwards to accommodate men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Women do not have the power to affect how men are viewed or how they behave. This is due to the aforementioned power dynamic between the sexes, as well as gendered upbringing and the historical precedent behind misogynistic myths and treatment of women. Men...benefit from a lifetime of socialisation fondling their egos, making them dominate conversations, drown out women's voices, think their opinions and feelings need to be centred by women no matter how misogynistic and full of shit they are, and overall have the kind of obnoxious baseless confidence combined with the refusal to take a step back and listen to women or even consider reality without their biased male lens.

I know we're talking about women who identify as men here, but you're overlooking the intergenerational dimensions and thus many of the complex realities. The fact is, women do have power to affect how men are viewed and and how men behave because historically women have done the majority of childrearing - and still do. Moreover, most of the teachers and administrators in early and middle childhood education until HS long have been, and still are, women too. So women really do play a huge part in providing males with the socialization that fondles their egos, centers their feelings, teaches them to dominate convos, drown out girls & women's voices and so on.

Just as women play a huge part in socializing girls & young women to adopt

meekness and politeness

And to be

trained to bend over backwards to accommodate men.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 10 fun2 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 10 fun -  (3 children)

Women do not present a threat to men, or other women for that matter.

So women never physically harm other women? Gotcha!

Female trans people occupy the same role as female people in general trying to play nice with the patriarchy to gain male respect or establish how "not like other girls" they are.

Trans men can't be "not like the other girls" because they are not girls to begin with. They're boys/men.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You’re really going to pretend that women harm other women as frequently as men? Really?

[–]Penultimate_Penance 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm just going to leave this here:

"Among known risk factors for being convicted of a violent crime, male sex is the most prominent; men commit about 90 % of violent crimes" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969807/

I'd rather take my chances with women thank you very much.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

So women never physically harm other women? Gotcha!

Close enough to "never" that we don't need any protections from it. And even if it does happen, there isn't likely to be a huge strength and power imbalance in the aggressor's favour. Moreover, women do not prey on and attack other women for sexual and sadistic purposes. This simply does not happen, and no, it wouldn't turn into a problem even if you could dig up 1 out of a million of women who have experienced this. The person below provided the relevant statistics, not that any person who can use their fucking eyes should need them. You can simply talk to women to know that most of them have had experiences with men following them, grabbing them, catcalling them, creeping on them to straight up assaulting and raping them. This is not some rare exceptional event, it's a rampant issue that most women have experienced. Meanwhile, good luck finding men who have been preyed on in such a way, especially by women. You won't, hence why the mere idea of a predatory woman is a joke in most men's eyes, a fun harmless little fantasy not to be taken seriously.

Now, are you going to keep lying through your teeth some more? Are you going to give these women the usual "You're just overreacting/making it all/hysterical/you should take it as a compliment" bs? Or maybe you want to call government agencies liars for correctly identifying the criminals' sex? Or is this going to be too much even for you, so you'll just conveniently disappear and re-appear elsewhere to lie some more in hopes that no-one will call you out on it?

[–]FlanJam 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transmen aren't as loud and don't directly impact women as much as transwomen do. But I mean, I don't think transmen are above criticism, I've seen some of them being quite misogynistic and homophobic. Especially the ones who formerly id as lesbians, some of them have a strange vitriol towards the lesbian community. (Obligatory: not all transmen, obviously)

[–]emptiedriver 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

For every [male] wanting access to woman's facilities (bathrooms, locker rooms), there is a [female] wanting access to men's facilities.

Not sure that that is true, but even if it is, who would you expect women to be concerned about?

Trans men are not infringing on women's rights. They're annoyingly ditching the fight for women's rights and trying to opt out of a material problem by proclaiming themselves to be men, but they aren't causing a material problem, or at very least not one for women, which is who feminists are fighting for. If anyone needs to be worrying about the direct impact of trans men, it's not other women. For us, the worry is their indirect impact of giving up on womanhood altogether, and there's plenty of discussion about that.

[–]distortedlinds 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

because no one cares about what women say. duh. men rule the roost. :{

[–]AlexisK 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Transgender movement themselves are not focused on them, and they aren't creating much problems or taking away places.

In general - they aren't taking top positions in men's organizations, they aren't leading what men's organizations do and say, they are not changing language for men, they are not more danger to men in sports or toilets than other men. In USA in last year out of 21 transgender politicians elected - 20 are transwomen and only 1 transman. Power dynamics are same as between sexes, changing gender did not changed power dynamics or amount of privileges they have - oppression still left sex-based. Same with healthcare - women's healthcare is underresearched, and transwomen taking there leading positions and moving into "universal healthcare" means that women's healthcare will stay underresearched, while for men it is not that big of a problem, similarly transwomen's healthcare is much better researched than transmen's - sex dynamics are staying the same. Similarly with crime statistics and with putting transwomen and transmen in prisons of respective sex. It will be dangerous to transman to be put into men's prison, but for transwomen it is the opposite - they will be the danger, especially considering that a lot of criminals are faking transgender status to get into women's prisons. And so on.

However, even if transmen were taking men's position - it would not be that big of a problem, because historically it is women's organizations which were always supervised by men, it is women who were not allowed to do anything without men. Similarly how you would not be bothered if black person will start taking leading positions in organizations for white people in USA will be different to when white people will take leading positions in organizations for black people. The history of oppression and current power dynamics - makes those similar situations unequal. Same with transgender people.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Why is there more focus on trans women than trans men?

Because through a Second Wave feminist lens of articulating and demonstrating women's inequities, men are historically and unambiguously the architects and enforcers of those inequities. Trans rights activism -- including AGP activism -- is no exception.

TL;DR men are sex-inequity ringleaders.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

But trans men are a part of trans rights activism as much as trans women.

[–]kwallio 12 insightful - 7 fun12 insightful - 6 fun13 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

citation needed

[–]Penultimate_Penance 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Who's in charge the vast majority of the time? Who easily gets positions of power? I'll give you a hint. The trans people who have male bodies hold most of the positions of power and influence. Sexism holds true even after transition. Go figure.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

An historically much smaller part. This didn't start yesterday.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Simple it's sexism.

Why are most CEOs men? Why are most politicians including trans politicians men? Why are most managerial and higher up positions held by men? Why is the main focus of trans activism and the criticism of it on trans women? (Hint: It's because transwomen are men) Why did the trans movement particularly trans women get so much support so easily? (Hint men sympathize with & support other men)

Men's feelings matter more. Men's demands matter more. Men's self inflicted victimhood is catapulted above women's real problems all the goddamn time. Men need to be held in check or they will trample over women. You know that we have to make child marriage illegal to force men as a class to stop marrying & raping literal children right? I cite all of human history up to this very second as to why men's power, influence and control over society must be held in check or girls and women will suffer monstrous atrocities at men's hands legally.

Imagine if the trans movement only consisted of trans men aka women who claim to be men. Would it have ever gone off the ground? Really think about this. Women are struggling to get basic bodily autonomy and now basic protections are being stripped away, because men's feelings matter more than women's rights. Women are second class citizens. They are thought of last if at all politically.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

The only thing that sometimes worries me about discussions of transmen in GC spaces is that I feel like they are infantilized. Like, transwomen are seen an abusive, evil narcissists most of the time, but at least are seen as in control of their lives and choices. In contrast, I feel like transmen are seen more often as victims unable to really make true decisions the way male trans people do. Often they are described as just doing things to stand out (“not like the other girls” comes up a lot, which seems to me a like a ridiculous way to talk about someone’s struggle with dysphoria, not that everyone is dysphoric, but if they are that just crazy to me). Of course patriarchy exists so there are some reasons to view female choices through that lens, but it’s hard for me not see some of it as infantilizing and perpetuating a kind of sexism.

Btw, this isn’t directed at anyone here, but I read Ovarit and the GC main sub and I feel like it’s something I see a lot. I feel like it would really bother me if I was a transman and I feel bad that they are treated that way.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Peaking, my hunch is that a lot of the infantilization of "transmen" you see in GC spaces is largely due to the fact that the vast majority of trans-identified females are tween & teen girls or very young adults. Visible "transmen" who are middle-aged and senior citizens are few and far between, whereas "transwomen" of these ages are everywhere.

If you look closer, I think you'll see that many of us in "GC" spaces make a very clear distinction between young persons who got caught up in transmania as vulnerable kids, tweens, teens and young adults before their brains were fully developed and all the adults who've claimed to be trans much later in life, after their brains have been fully formed and they've had the chance to establish themselves in careers and to have (read: father) children. And that we make this distinction in the case of individuals of both sexes. The fact that the number of full-grown adult males who identify as trans today far outstrips the number of full-grown adult females who do so is not our doing. Just as it's not our doing - but it is within our notice - that transmania seems to be a social contagion that's taken off particularly amongst troubled tween, teen and very young adult female persons today.

I personally strive to be just as kind to young males who've been led down the garden path, as it were, of genderology as to young females who've done the same. I also hold adult females who identify as trans (such as Stephen Whittle, James Morton, Buck Angel, Scott Newgent, Chase Strangio, Masha Gessen and many more) just as much to account - adult account - as I do their male counterparts.

ETA: no one on this recent thread on GC Ovarit is infantilizing Chase Strangio or giving Strangio the kid gloves treatment: https://ovarit.com/o/TransLogic/32116/chase-strangio-trying-to-silence-60-minutes-and-detransitioners-linking-as-it-s

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hi MT! That’s a good point. It’s probably part of the difference. Especially with well-known TW, so many of them are old. The oldest TM I met when I was in those circles has transitioned in their late 30s (and actually had a biological child prior, which was unusually too, grown though). I still feel like some amount of it occurs independent of that, but that’s just my general impression. Chase Strangio is a good example of a TM that GC does go after aggressively. Chase is an active TRA though so maybe that is part of it too. I feel like some of the discussion of E Page, even though they are very much an adult, was a little infantilizing especially early on. Not all though, so I don’t think this something all or even most GCers do. I don’t feel like you do this at all.

I feel like people who are pointing out the growth in young females identifying as trans are seeing something that is actually happening. The growth in females identifying that way doesn’t seem like it can possibly just be an increased acceptance thing because of how many it is and how the types of people are changing. Like, I knew a number of transmen when I was younger and most were came out between late teens and late 20s, were exclusively female attracted, and were very masculine presenting and acting. So like, HSTS. I feel like even though they were young compared to all the old TW, they were still older than the trans female people I’m hearing about now. They weren’t straight identified prior to transitioning and certainly didn’t want date gay men or men all. A lot remained a part of the lesbian community too. My last (and only, I’m not doing it again) time visiting a lesbian bar was when a TM friend of mine ask me to come watch them perform with their drag king troupe. All that to say, I feel like many trans females coming out now are something else.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with your perceptions of a lot of discussions of El Page. To my view, Page seems to be "identifying as" and "presenting as" a toddler, 10 year-old or pubescent teen boy, not as a full-grown man in Page's same age group, which is mid-30s. And much/most of the press and SM coverage and convos of Page's "transition" seems geared towards making excuses for El for reasons that infantilize her.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Ha, Strangio definitely does not get the kid glove treatment.

A classic example of a person using their political power to cause great harm to others. And Strangio is almost 40 years old, so age cannot be used as an excuse.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I read Ovarit and the GC main sub and I feel like it’s something I see a lot

IME it really took off after Abigail Shrier's book came out. Most of the criticism is aimed at influencers (including celebs and outright groomers) doing a hard-sell on vulnerable young girls already dealing with puberty and misogynistic cultural expectations and, in many cases, discovering they're lesbians or socially maturing with ASD (or both). It's a very different scenario from GD, and eerily similar to the ways that eating disorders, self-harm, and Borderline diagnoses have swept through communities of adolescent girls before social media.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I read part of Shrier’s book and I felt like she made some good points. I was glad she like separate types of trans people because I really feel like it isn’t all the same. It’s hard not to read Shrier’s book as infantilizing though so I think you are right. I felt like Shrier is also someone who is conservative about gender in general so probably is more likely to be like that (her politics outside of that book are not good from my perspective, she been involved with a lot of right wings stuff and is not a feminist). Maybe it’s peoples different perspectives though. I know I wouldn’t have wanted to never be taken seriously about any gender stuff when I was a child and teenager. I didn’t get to make any decisions at that age, but I get talk about how I felt and after years of various therapy my parents agreed to some medical treatment. I wouldn’t have wanted to be totally dismissed forever even when I had persisted for many years and told to come back when I was 20 or 25 and my brain had developed more. I understand that the rapid onset dysphoria can be different though. Female are also different than males, but I just a little allergic to like not taking someone seriously just because of that.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Shrier may be more on the conservative side, but I read the whole book and felt like she was extremely supportive of young GNC girls and young lesbians.

It's weird when Republicans, the ones we normally think of as being conservative or repressive when it comes to gender roles, are actually more accepting of gender nonconformity than trans rights activists. They understand that biological girls are girls, no matter how they choose to dress or act. I feel like GNC girls are safer in conservative small towns and rural areas these days than they are in places like Seattle or San Francisco.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hi worried! I’m sure your not wrong. The 3rd of it I read was very supportive GNC girls and lesbians too. I guess I’m a little skeptical if that support is genuine or would have been if trans people weren’t conservatives latest culture war target. It’s good to have support though and in some ways it doesn’t matter. I’m happy she is telling those stories. I’m probably a little biased against conservatives because of my childhood.

You may be right about it being safer in conservative places to be a GNC girl now. That is really sad to me.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Obviously I don't know Shrier, but I feel like it's genuine. I remember she talked about coming to the trans issue by accident. I think she's a moderate conservative. She's Jewish, but not the extreme orthodox type. I don't think she's exposing the issue for political gain or to own the liberals. If anything, being outspoken on ROGD has caused people to personally attack her.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know that something went horrendously wrong - when it is safer to be homosexual among conservative homophobic christians than among the progressive "LGBTQA+"-friendly left:

https://twitter.com/Iamthisnotthat1/status/1397433363686989831

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I hear you . . . it's complicated. Often the data-driven info we want and need doesn't come in a package (or through an individual) we'd prefer, and its reception can stir up a sort of inverse cathartic storm. Moreso because of attempts to silence her -- that always seems to pump up the backlash. It gets brutal.

I would really like to see some careful sorting out of GD and ROGD for starters . . . at this point I feel like they're mental health placeholders that need some serious, responsible clinical investigation. We couldn't dismiss them away if we wanted to (and why should we want to?) -- thinking here of a host of physical issues and syndromes we now know are very real and hard to diagnostically pin down, yet sending the patient away with "Your vitals are fine, your tests are normal, there's nothing wrong with you" can be a deeply damaging experience to their psyche, let alone their untreated-because-unidentified dysfunction.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was glad she like separate types of trans people because I really feel like it isn’t all the same. It’s hard not to read Shrier’s book as infantilizing though.

But the focus of Shrier's book is transmania in tween/teen and young adult female people today and in recent years. It's not about males of any age today - or males of previous generations who developed "gender dysphoria" and adopted opposite-sex "identities" for very different reasons. Nor is the focus of Shrier's book those female people of previous generations who decided to "go trans" in adulthood like Buck Angel, Scott Newgent and Masha Gessen.

Peaking, as a result of what you've revealed of yourself in your posts on this sub & our specific interactions, I've come to feel very fond of you. And my fondness is reinforced by the kind of anti-sexist politics I've always practiced - and the fact that I am the mother of sons and the daughter/niece/sister/friend/colleague/student/mentee/partner of many male persons who have provided me with enormous amounts of various kinds of support in my lifetime.

But all that said, what you went through as a male child, adolescent and young adult with "gender dysphoria" is not the same as what has been experienced by the young female persons Shrier's book concentrates on.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I know it’s not about males. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that it was if I did. It’s only about females. I meant types of trans people like onset age or sexual orientation, not like males vs females. She does talk about some female who are in college though, so it isn’t all non-adults. I know people say your brain hasn’t finished developing, but I feel like adults should be treated like adults unless we change what that means or something.

Responding to your edit: Thank you for the kind words! I like you too! I should probably leave any personal experiences out of this because I see why it might seem like I was saying female trans people would feel the way I felt and I don’t know how they would have felt because I’m not female. It was meant to be how I think about it, but I don’t want to seem like I’m speaking for anyone else or how it might feel for female people. I couldn’t possibly know since I’m a male person.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

transmen are seen more often as victims unable to really make true decisions the way male trans people do.

Uuh, yeah. Cuz they're women. Women work from within patriarchal norms that seek to subjugate them all the time. Their agency, dignity and humanity are constantly stripped from them in favour of men and they are groomed since babies to know their place in the hierarchy. The idea that the sexes freely choose the patriarchy because women just naturally enjoy being subjugated simply is not acceptable under feminism. The same argument has been used to stall and sabotage women's rights since forever.

Men are narcissistic abusers because they're rewarded for it. Women bend over backwards to accommodate them because they're punished if they don't. Male and female trans people don't act particularly different from male and female people in general.

“not like the other girls” comes up a lot, which seems to me a like a ridiculous way to talk about someone’s struggle with dysphoria

Well first of all, "not like other girls" is literally used as evidence of being trans: "I hated dresses/I played with boys/I like STEM/I hated pink". These girls mistaken their body insecurities, anxieties and dislike of objectification, which the vast majority of women have dealt with since literal childhood, as "not being women". Society, even feminism, sells the image of a feminine woman happy in her own objectification compared to a man who's just...human. Girls think there's something wrong with them if they're not indoctrinated properly because they don't feel the gender "reward" for playing into gendered expectations. They mistaken their wish to be perceived as human beings as wanting to be men, in an androcentric society that divides the sexes into "human" and "female", and assume that the feminine women, who are just as rife with the same insecurities as them, must enjoy their subjugation on some base level, when in reality they're coping with the only role that is given to them. A lot of liberal feminism tries its damnest to sell "femininity" as normal and empowering to women. "Femininity isn't actually oppressive, doing these feminine things can be liberating if you just convince yourself it is!" And ofc the girls who don't buy into that wonder what's wrong with them if they don't get enjoyment out of being treated or thinking of themselves in this way, and they do if they think of themselves in neutral terms. A lot of us know exactly how this feels, we know the self-hate and social disdain that girls go through for being female and the futility of trying to play nice with patriarchal expectations, except radical feminism has given us a way to recognise these feelings for what they are, instead of trying to legitimise them through brainsex ideas or legitimising gender roles as some form of gendersoul innate to every person.

I feel like it would really bother me if I was a transman

I'm bothered by trans people hating women (of which I am one) literally all the time, but they don't seem to mind one bit. Why should I accommodate misogynistic worldviews just because misogynists can feel bad about themselves?

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think they're so much infantilized, but I see a lot of claims about them just doing it for attention, throwing other natal females under the bus, and other comments implying that it's not a serious sign of something wrong. People like E. Page, Demi Lovato, and Courtney Stodden are obviously in pretty deep pain. They've all suffered sexual trauma, harassment, and misogyny in their lives. I feel sympathy for them. It's not like they're just putting on some act for the fame.

That said, my sympathy runs low when people like Page use their fame to attack others and put children in danger.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

I agree with you 100%. Trans men themselves say they don't transition due to misogyny or trauma due to being a woman, but GCs like to force that narrative on them.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

FWIW I don't think Keira Bell et. al. had a GC narrative forced upon them.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Women said they don't need to vote and that being a stay-at-home wife obedient to her husband is "empowering" and that being beaten by their husbands isn't wrong. Women and men say misogynistic things literally all the time. If just saying "I'm not misogynistic, but..." changed anything, we wouldn't live under the patriarchy, because most people claim this, and yet most are misogynistic.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

Trans men are not women and do not wish to be classed with women. Plus, GCs shouldn't be forcing narratives on trans men, just like trans men don't force narratives on them.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Trans men are not women and do not wish to be classed with women.

Women said they don't need to vote and that being a stay-at-home wife obedient to her husband is "empowering" and that being beaten by their husbands isn't wrong. Women saying misogynistic things and trying to suck up to the patriarchy doesn't discredit feminism one bit. We've already been through this.

GCs shouldn't be forcing narratives on trans men, just like trans men don't force narratives on them.

Uuuh, enforcing a belief in gendersouls, removing women's protections and advancements in women's rights, telling women they're privileged for being female and gaslighting them in regards to their oppression IS forcing a narrative onto us, or rather women in general. You can't both advocate the removal of rights that a disenfranchised group has fought for, advocate for a completely unfounded regressive worldview with gendersouls to which women's rights need to be sacrificed AND claim that you're not being in any way political.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Because natal females are no threat to other natal females or to males.

I am not particularly interested in trans women. I understand there are pressing issues surrounding safeguarding and sports but I personally am not overly invested in a lot of those debates. Trans women and natal women should be able to co-exist and ideally respect one another. But my focus is more on what's happening to gender nonconforming children, especially the skyrocketing rates of girls and young women who are disavowing womanhood. That's where my real concern lies. To me, it's so much more urgent than arguing over sports or bathrooms. Those things are what keep me up at night.