Both: What did you think of the 60 Minutes segment on transgender health care and detransition?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

This past Sunday, 60 Minutes ran a segment on transgender health care.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-transgender-health-care-issues-2021-05-23

The full segment is at the bottom of the page. It's my understanding that this was originally supposed to be a piece on detransition alone. Over 30 detransitioners were interviewed, although only 3 get to speak on camera. It appears that 60 Minutes suffered the predictable pressure from trans activists and modified their story to include pro-transition speakers, but activists did not succeed in preventing the detransition aspect from being discussed. There was also a doctor voicing her concerns about the fast-tracking of youth to medical transition. Predictably, trans activists on Twitter and elsewhere were outraged and blasted 60 Minutes for giving a voice to detransitioners.

What are your feelings on the segment?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I think it’s interesting that she interviewed so many detrans people (and referenced several health care professionals) and we only got condensed excerpts from a few interviewees. This felt very censored and I wonder if it was supposed to be longer and more in depth but wasn’t allowed to be. Idk just seems like there was a lot left out (and unnecessarily added), I doubt it’s the full story the journalist wanted to tell.

Also lol at 44 murders out of an estimated population of 1,400,000 being a pandemic of violence

[–]worried19[S] 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

That's my understanding. The detransitioners were told it was going to be a segment on detransition. The news leaked out, and trans activists mobilized and got 60 Minutes to change the story.

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/24026/60-minutes-is-going-to-run-a-segment-on-detransitioners

Notice there was a 2 month delay on the segment. I would be willing to bet GLAAD and HRC and the rest were trying their hardest to kill it.

Also lol at 44 murders out of an estimated population of 1,400,000 being a pandemic of violence

Even one murder is too many, but the vast majority of those killed lived dangerous lives on the street, selling their bodies. And yet TRAs also complain when we say we want to abolish prostitution.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Even one murder is too many, but the vast majority of those killed lived dangerous lives on the street, selling their bodies.

This isn't true of trans people killed in the US. A look at the specifics of trans people killed in the US annually shows that a majority are killed by lovers, partners, roommates as part of ongoing domestic violence or by friends, acquaintances, rivals or partners in crime in other sorts of beefs, many of which have to do with some kind of illicit activity not involving sex. Fewer than a third of trans homicides in the US are related to "sex work" in which the victims were selling their bodies on the streets. Two of the 44 trans people "murdered" in the US in 2020 died at the hands of police in actions deemed to be non-criminal.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for the correction on that. It seems like they are more living their lives on the margins rather than literally living on the streets. It's still bad that any prostitutes get killed or that anyone finds themselves involved in criminal circumstances. I assume it's mostly a class thing. Obviously well educated trans people from loving families don't find themselves there. But a lot of kids and teens who were subjected to poverty, family abuse, and foster care do.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't think your assumptions that trans crime and homicides "are mostly a class thing" necessarily hold up. People from all socioeconomic classes experience/engage in domestic violence in their adult lives, and lots of wealthy & MC people with good educations experience family abuse growing up. Conversely, lots of people who grew up in poverty nonetheless had and have loving families.

Re prostitution specifically: The situations of women and children trafficked into prostitution are very different to the situations of most males who identify as trans who do "sex work" in the US. Males who ID as trans who do "sex work" in the US generally do it not coz they're under the thumb of pimps and they have no other way of making money, but for the "validation" and "gender affirmation" it gives them - and coz they are males with male sex drives who get off on it.

I don't have the material on hand right now, but recently I've read a number of academic papers about male same-sex attracted people in the US who identify as trans and do "sex work" which show that this is a line of work that many of them get into and continue doing out of choice. Similar to the way that so many trans-identified males speak openly of loving to be catcalled, sexually objectified and abused by other males, many are drawn to same-sex "sex work" because they think being fucked and sexually servicing men is the height of "femininity."

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Right, but ending up "on the streets" mostly indicates one hasn't had family support or good education. Whether they're selling their bodies or selling drugs, it's commonly associated with poverty and abuse. It's not that common for rich kids who went to Harvard to end up on the streets, even if their families were shitty.

Males who ID as trans who do "sex work" in the US generally do it not coz they're under the thumb of pimps and they have no other way of making money, but for the "validation" and "gender affirmation" it gives them - and coz they are males with male sex drives who get off on it.

It would be interesting to read if you can find that material. I have not heard of men generally enjoying male prostitution. Even if they're gay, they have to service unattractive, abusive, entitled men, especially if they're hustling on the streets. I don't think there are many "happy hookers" out there, male or female.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that there are not many "happy hookers" out there. I wasn't trying to suggest that these males are happy or that they "enjoy" prostitution. At all. Just that they all can't be assumed to be solely motivated by desperation and having no other options. Lots of these down and out males who lack education, family support & regular job options still can make much better money from other kinds of criminal activity than from sex work. And many such males who identify and dress as women do engage in all sorts of other lucrative criminal activity such as muggings, theft, drug dealing, gang fraud activities like stealing old people's SS checks. But many still do "sex work" anyways even though it doesn't pay very well and has many dangers and drawbacks, especially if it's the street hustling kind.

Males as well as females who do prostitution are very unhappy, troubled, traumatized people with a range of problems. But the patterns, and mixed motivations, of male persons who do "sex work" are very different to that of females. And there are myriad differences between males who do prostitution presenting as male - eg "rent boys" - and those who engage in same-sex prostitution as transvestites or in today's parlance when "transgender."

Amongst males who identify as/wish they were the opposite sex, the preoccupation with and need for "validation" and "gender affirmation" is immense. And it colors and drives pretty much everything these people do. Which means that even when they have other options, males who identify as women still will engage in sex work partly for the "validation" of their gender identities, their "femininity" and their "passability." Girls & women who are prostituted and males who do sex work presenting as male do not have this motivation or anything similar.

A key difference between females who are prostituted and males who identify as women is that the females are almost always trafficked and/or under the control of pimps, but the males who dress as women are not.

Moreover, there is no longstanding, dominant trend of girls & women in Western culture writing memoirs, fiction, blog posts and making other kinds of media content in which they glorify being prostituted. Yes, some women have made such material (Story of O, for example). But most of this material is made by and for males. Including males who wish they were the opposite sex and try to present that way. As the work of people like Andrea Long Chu, Julia Serrano, Torrey Peters and many others show, even privileged, highly educated, erudite, financially well-off trans-identified males are enthralled with the idea of doing "sex work" and believe nothing would be more "validating" than to work as "whxre."

In a 2013 paper called Gender Affirmation: A Framework for Conceptualizing Risk Behavior among Transgender Women of Color, a researcher interviewed 22 English-speaking "transgender women of color" in the San Francisco bay area in order

to explore the role of gender affirmation in the context of a newly proposed theoretical model that integrates prominent theories from stigma, eating disorders, and HIV-related research as well as the existing literature related to transgender women, and posits that risk behavior among transgender women of color can be conceptualized as an outcome of unmet need for gender affirmation.

While a number of investigators have observed this need for gender affirmation among transgender participants in their studies, its relationship to high risk behavior has rarely been directly investigated (Melendez & Pinto, 2007; Nuttbrock, Bockting, et al., 2009). If indeed the need for gender affirmation is related to high-risk behavior (and thus negative health outcomes), this finding could provide important implications for intervention strategies, lend insight into how rigid binary notions of gender can both directly and indirectly impact one’s mental and physical health, and open up new directions for future research utilizing an intersectional approach to examining lived experiences of racism, sexism, and transphobia.

Some samples of transwomen report high levels of engagement in unprotected receptive anal sex with multiple partners, sex under the influence of drugs and alcohol, sex work, and sharing needles for injection drugs, hormones, silicone, and other substances for body modification purposes (Kenagy, 2002; Nemoto, Operario, Keatley, Han, & Soma, 2004; Operario, et al., 2011; Sausa, et al., 2007). Some transwomen report that receptivity during sex is experienced as affirming of their female gender identity (Bockting, et al., 1998), and since very few transwomen have access to (and many do not desire) genital surgery, receptivity during sex for transwomen usually means receptive anal sex (Nuttbrock, Hwahng, et al., 2009).

In addition, studies have shown that experiences of stigma and discrimination increase transwomen’s need for gender affirmation from their male sexual partners, thus increasing their willingness to engage in risky sexual behavior and reducing their self-efficacy to negotiate condom use and/or substance use during sex (Bockting, et al., 1998; Melendez & Pinto, 2007; Reisner et al., 2009; Rodriguez-Madera & Toro-Alfonso, 2005; Sausa, et al., 2007; Sugano, Nemoto, & Operario, 2006). One meta-analysis found that almost half (44%) of transwomen reported unprotected receptive anal intercourse, with the highest rates being reported with sex work clients (39%) and primary partners (37%) (Herbst, et al., 2008). Similar to other at-risk populations, sex under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol is one of the most commonly cited sexual risk factors among transwomen as it is often used as method of coping with stigma, loneliness, and/or the demands of sex work, and can lead to unprotected sex (Nemoto, Operario, Keatley, Han, et al., 2004; Xavier, Bobbin, Singer, & Budd, 2005).

...[sexual] objectification was described as frustrating, but many participants (n=15, 68%) also described receiving a certain amount of much-needed gender affirmation from it as well. The objectification experiences were described as affirming in the sense that they felt validated as women through these experiences, but validation came with the price of feeling that they were not being valued as unique human beings with something beyond sex to offer the world.

You walk down the street after you done turned the trick and you feel like you’re the grand diva ‘cause somebody stopped ‘cause you’re pretty. But see what I realize is that it’s not the beauty on the inside that they see. All they see you for is a piece of ass…All they think that transgenders are good for is sex and drugs. (African American, 23)

Another participant described how she attempts to take back some of the power that she feels she loses as a result of being sexually objectified by asking for money after sex:

I have all kind of profiles on the Internet, and guys think you’re a female. Then when you disclose your gender to them, they just think, you know, do you want to come over and kick it, and that means come to your house and have sex. I screw some of them and I ask them for money after I screw them. I tell them I need to go buy a new outfit or this and that. My thing is because I feel like that gives me the empowerment, the power, you know ‘cause everyone, people just think of you as a sex object. (African American, 35)

In addition to being a means of survival, sex work was also described as a means of obtaining gender affirmation:

The money is really good, and easy. And when a guy is paying you to have sex, it can make you feel like a real hot commodity, a sexy lady. It can be fun. (API, 29)

I think that my happiness comes from validation. And I think that’s another reason that transsexuals are so promiscuous. And, because it’s like, oh my god, if a straight man is banging me, it’s like, I guess I made it as a woman. You know? It’s like reassurance. Over and over again. And [non-transgender] women, they don’t spread their legs in front of everybody because they don’t have to. You know, they’re not trying to get validated by a guy. They know who they are. (Mixed race, 28)

We lean on certain people for support and love in this life. And if you’re not getting it from your own blood, it hurts. That’s why a lot of us go out into the streets and look for that love and affection and respect that we would have probably been fine if we got that at home. (African American, 53)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3667985/

These are not happy people. Yes, as you say, males who identify as females in the US who do "sex work" often have experienced family rejection, CSA, poverty, homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, and have served time in jail. But their motivations are complex and multifaceted, particularly the farther into adulthood they are. Most people who engage in self-harming behaviors are getting something out of them. Many males who identify as the opposite sex have a constant, unquenchable need for "gender affirmation" that causes them to have a compulsion to seek it out as if they were addicts, and this affects all the choices they make. This seems to be part of the reason why "transwomen of color" in the US not only do "sex work," but why they have such shockingly high rates of HIV and such unwillingness to get tested or treated, and such reluctance to change their behaviors.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think that GLAAD, HRC and the rest pretty much did kill it. This barely touched the surface of the issue, I’m pretty confident that this was edited to suit tras. Glad it was released at all, just think it’s obvious that this was so heavily edited down, and some tras are still upset about it.

And I agree even one murder is too many, my point is just that 44 people out of 1,400,000 is not even a full 1% but it’s being called a pandemic. It’s ridiculous.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh yeah, I agree. There's no pandemic of trans murders going on. There are areas of the world where being very gender nonconforming can put your life at risk, but the USA is not one of them. I just find it crazy that when we do say we want to help people who are living life on the margins, we then get accused of shaming and attacking sex workers.

I think that GLAAD, HRC and the rest pretty much did kill it.

It all depends on how you look at it. They were unable to shut 60 minutes up and erase the voices of detransitioners. They are furious about it online because they couldn't control the narrative. That's a win for us. They tried, and they failed. They're not happy with the finished product.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess I just think that they did control the narrative. They aren’t happy because they don’t want it discussed at all. Even controlling the narrative can’t conceal the obvious issues surrounding the discussion. I do think it’s good that this was released, I do think it’s a good sign that it was able to be released at all, I just think they absolutely had a lot of say in the way it was presented, they’re unhappiness was a given no matter what- any attention they receive that focuses on fact over their feelings and pseudoscience is going to upset them because they know it causes questions they can’t effectively answer.

[–]kwallio 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Its downright offensive that these 44 are referred to as hate crimes when I think most or all of them are the result of domestic violence or drug crimes or what have you. Trans ppl are not being murdered in the street for being trans.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It does seem like a lot of the cases are people who were murdered who happened to be trans, as opposed to people who were murdered because they were trans.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We're lucky that it aired at all, even with the "fair and balanced" amendments. I think it's a good start. And I think that our considering that it aired at all speaks volumes.

My favorite part, perfectly situated at the middle of the segment:

Lesley - "Did this have any part of it: a sense that men had it easier in life than women did, and that your road might be easier if you were male?"

Grace: "Yes. I just had this sense that if -- if I could inhabit life as, like, a trans man, as a man, then I wouldn't feel so self-conscious. I was thinking that it would make me feel very free."

And there it is.

[–]worried19[S] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I think Lesley got it. She understands how shitty things can be for women.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Completely -- her poise when asking the question, her body language, and Grace's very felt response.

(clarity edit)

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

An attempt was made.

giving in and adding pro trans rhetoric really was shitting all over what would have been a great opportunity for detransitioners to speak. Instead everything they say is bookended by the usual party line.

Media needs to stop bowing to Twitter dipshits.

[–]worried19[S] 14 insightful - 5 fun14 insightful - 4 fun15 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

I really feel like the activist pressure backfired in this case. Instead of detransitioners being presented on their own as a small minority, they're being discussed as an aspect of overall transgender health care. And the trans doctor at the beginning of the segment voiced concerns, which was echoed by the other doctor saying that even her trans colleagues have worries about what's happening. All of this proves to the average viewer that this issue is complicated, and the personal stories of the detransitioners were alarming and heartbreaking.

Kudos to Lesley Stahl. She spent a lot of time with those detransitioners. She seemed to really like and relate to Grace. I would be willing to bet she stood up for the segment and didn't allow the producers to kill it. Just a gut feeling, but I would guess the only reason we saw it was because of her. She's 79 years old and has had a well respected career, so I doubt she cares about the Twitter mob coming after her.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Oh don’t get me wrong they tried and there was clear effort to do this properly. The problem is more that there can be no discussion of transgender rhetoric without an obligatory piece stating it’s good and helpful and safe.

Even a long standing careerwoman with an established and respected reputation couldn’t provide detransitioners an opportunity to be heard and understood without tra worming in.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Totally agree. It's disheartening. I was just glad they didn't succeed in silencing them. You could tell the Human Rights Campaign lawyer (who was only there for political purposes) was pissed at not being able to control the narrative. GLAAD and the ACLU and other similar organizations are throwing a shit fit online.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Imagine the shit fits are enormous right now, haha.

It frightens me to think how much power it would take to freely question tra publicly.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'd like to think it was an attempt at being balanced by adding some positive words about trans healthcare and transitioning. There is a serious problem with overtreatment and lack of real care and medical/professional oversight, but I'm getting this sense that majority views may swing far to the opposite direction--more and more people seem to be pushing back against the invasiveness of this ideology à la what has been happening in the UK and some US states. I absolutely think children shouldn't be transitioned nor should anyone do so if they can help it, and most people are likely better off not taking exogenous hormones or having surgical procedures, but there may still be cases where those are what might be the best thing for a person until more adequate treatment or preventative steps are developed. I'd really like to think the inclusion was more helpful than not.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Imo it’s less fair to mitigate the statements of detransitioners by having them immediately followed by pro trans people.

Belief in gender is high and extremely popular in America. It’s publicly unacceptable for huge swaths of people to speak against or even question the legitimacy of gender and transgender rhetoric. Detransitioners are an even smaller group, with more female members forced to share their tiny spotlight with males arguing the popular line that transition is healthy and good for people.

They may have been aiming for balance but in effect detrans people didn’t get the chance to speak alone and unopposed for once.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Hopefully this sets a stage for them to eventually be able to, kind of in the same vein that Worried said in another comment. It seems like this just wasn't likely to air if it only was detransitioners and their advocates and supporters sharing, so they've at least made their way to a large international stage--they're on the radar, at least. I have a gut feeling that it won't be long until they can speak freely in the media, it's just going to have to be eased into mass media and public discourse. Though it might be a rather slow... transition

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Ahhh you! Making me snicker like a kid haha.

Hopefully this does open the stage up for others

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

haha yusssss 🤭 Fingers crossed!

[–]worried19[S] 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I personally thought it was great. I'm glad these issues are being discussed, and it was amazing to see 60 Minutes fairly present both sides. For non-Americans, 60 Minutes is one of the longest-running and most serious and respected news programs on television. I applaud the producers for not giving in and killing their story due to activist pressure.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I was just reading about this on r/detrans, how funny! All of the guests appeared thoughtful and rational, which was nice to see. It was surprising to me that the WPATH board member expressed some concern about the relaxing of medical care and protocol, that was interesting to see them mention healthcare providers becoming involved who maybe had no business taking on trans-related medicine. I liked seeing the mention of a lot of concerned doctors, including trans ones, but these things that surprised me make more sense if the segment was originally intended to only be about detransitioners. I was really excited to see Daisy Chadra on there, too, she's great!

It's a bit of a shame the message of healthcare professionals failing and harming people who have gender dysphoria or identify as trans wasn't more overt, but I'm really glad they stayed mostly on that message throughout the piece. What broke my heart most was hearing from the woman who determined she was trans and decided to transition because of the happiness she saw trans people expressing online about how wonderful transition was for them, like she wanted that happiness bad enough to feel it was the answer. What is so sad about that is that I feel like she's speaking for so many teenage girls and women who are doing the same thing for what seems like may be the same reason.

Overall, I thought it was a good segment--it's a good sign that detransitioners were given such a grand platform to share their experiences. Hopefully this only continues and picks up more momentum.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

healthcare professionals failing and harming people who have gender dysphoria or identify as trans

I feel like there's a huge historical correlation there across medical fields, often because of trends in surgery, meds, and diagnostic criteria. The list is loooong (orthopedic surgeries that don't relieve pain, meds whose side-effects are more severe than the condition they treat/are highly addictive, diagnoses that are going through a popularity surge but are meaningless for the condition at hand). Not to place all the blame on the medical/psych establishment, but . . . trans procedures are lucrative procedures.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's almost like the goal is to just cause less harm when treating people during the course of 'helping' them. Do you think that really is the case?

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that's sometimes the case now, especially in orthopedics (because of the large amount of data they now have on what works or doesn't work, as well as a better idea of how MRI results can be poor predictors of pain). But in other fields, I'm not so sure . . . I think it really varies.

[–]worried19[S] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I recognized Daisy right away. I hadn't seen Grace or Garrett before. One of the talking heads on the video call was Cari Stella, but she didn't get a chance to speak on camera. I didn't recognize the other one.

The doctor representing the APA was not only outright lying in the main segment, but also disingenuous in the Overtime segment, saying we need to dispel the "myths" about gender affirming care. What myths? The whole point is that there is no nuance! It's affirmation only. If a 10 year old biological girl says she's a boy, the only acceptable response is to affirm. Doctors are not allowed to question a child's declaration or try to get the child to reconcile to their natal sex. They are not even allowed to question where the dysphoria comes from.

This is even happening with children who are sexually abused, by the way. Here's a book about a 10 year old incest victim being affirmed as a trans boy:

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/31719/children-s-book-the-ship-we-built-by-lexie-bean-presents-10-year-old-female-ince

Segment on the Tavistock that talks about children with significant trauma and abuse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTRnrp9pXHY

It drives me up the wall to see doctors like this, the president of the APA no less, lying on camera, making it seem like they follow some kind of nuanced guidelines when they absolutely do not and in fact want to criminalize nuanced treatment of gender nonconforming children. They must know they're lying. They're saying these things for political reasons, not because they're true. They just want people to shut up and stop questioning.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

That idea that we need to 'dispel the myths' seems like something that maybe had some merit years ago, but the people who say and believe that don't seem to be aware that they got what they wanted a while ago, so they just keep pushing. They aren't stopping and stepping back to see all of the progress they've made towards their ideological goals and relaxing or easing up. The fact that they made total, unquestioning affirmation the default treatment and yet they still are pushing for more when there seemingly isn't anything else to advocate/fight for seems like there is an alternate motive behind such activism. It feels nefarious, like it's a way for abusers and child molesters to be able to hide their abuse: if a child can be deemed trans and can be transitioned without hesitation, why wouldn't such sickos want to use that as a free pass to abuse children? If no one asks about or inquires into children, teens and adults' histories of dysphoria and traumatic events, then there's no problem, huh!

It infuriates me, honestly. It brings me right back to what I hate most about this blind, toxic positivity about medical transition for children. What's more, many survivors of CSA and other forms of child abuse grow up to be abusers themselves and continue the cycle--that is absolutely the most worrisome aspect of this pro-sexual deviancy and pro-kink attitude that seems to be fostered in trans communities and under (trans)gender ideology, I don't feel like it is a coincidence that these things just happen to be taking place in the name of trans rights.

Not only that, but it also affirms bullying based on GNC expression and tells any child bully that they were right to do so, like it helped these kids get the 'care' they needed. They believe it's OK to bully others for not conforming to stereotyped sex roles, they continue, and pass those values onto their children. So, great, now everyone's happy! Kids can continue to be cruel to their peers and have fun at their expense, and these GNC kids get to be forced into a role via erasure, medication and surgeries that allow them to conform to societal expectations. Win-win! And, really, if the parents are happy they don't have to live with the shame of having a gay child nor be held accountable for other abuse, that's what truly matters. (I'm sorry for being so sarcastic, but wow does it get under my skin. That video and thread about that book you linked just confirm my fears)

Like, all of this lying and needless, aggressive activism makes me feel like that's what this is all about anymore: creating a paradise for abusers and sadists to be as cruel as they want. It's terrifying, sickening and angering all at once. Pardon my language, but people like that doctor can fuck off with that BS.

[–]kwallio 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What's more, many survivors of CSA and other forms of child abuse grow up to be abusers themselves and continue the cycle

I don't kow if this is really true, in "Why do they do That" Lundy makes the point that claims of being victims of child abuse by abusive men drop basically to zero when they are hooked up to a polygraph. I would say that based on this information most abused children do not grow up to abuse.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lundy makes the point that claims of being victims of child abuse by abusive men drop basically to zero when they are hooked up to a polygraph. I would say that based on this information most abused children do not grow up to abuse.

Yes, it's true that most people sexually abused as children do not grow up to commit the same sort of abuse as adults. Many female victims of CSA actually go in the opposite direction and become "do gooders" who feely duty-bound to save all the world's abused & oppressed children, in other words they/we develop a "savior complex."

But all that said, the full-grown men who get hooked up to polygraphs that Lundy speaks of are all convicted sex offenders - and men who get caught and convicted of sex offenses aren't necessarily reflective of the population who commit most child sex abuse.

My impression is that a great deal of child and minor sex abuse is episodic, opportunistic abuse committed by perps who are only slightly older than those they victimize. A lot of people who commit acts of child and minor sex abuse do so when they themselves are still children, adolescents or young adults - and they do not go on to become lifelong sex abusers and career criminals.

I was subjected to various kinds of episodic sex abuse by full grown men when I was a child - such as when a man exposed his dick & jerked off to/at me when I was walking home from kindergarten when I was 5-6; when a man who was a total stranger jumped & molested me when I was walking home from school at age 11; when a bishop in my church made me kneel before him, kiss his ring and his penis when I was 12; when several of my good friends' fathers started groping me once I hit puberty. But the majority of the sex abuse I experienced in my youth was done by boys of my own age or somewhat older.

As someone who has tracked the topic of child sex abuse since the 1970s, I am of the impression that a vast number of male people have experienced various forms of episodic sex abuse in childhood, adolescence and early adulthood at the hands of other boys and young men who did not go on to commit sex offenses in their (later) adult lives.

Moreover, most men who do go on to commit sex offenses in their adult lives against women, children or other men are "average, ordinary Joes" who are never reported to authorities, much less investigated, prosecuted and convicted. Or if attempts are made to report these crimes to authorities, those doing the reporting are not believed, are ridiculed, accused of libel and charged with "wasting police time" and filing false reports.

As a result, I don't think we should base our beliefs about who commits most CSA on research done on convicted sex offenders.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Right, it's my understanding that the majority do not, but perhaps my wording makes it seem like I'm implying that most do; to clarify, I mean that being abused increases the risk of becoming an abuser oneself. A lot of the research even recently appears based on testimonials from male sex offenders, though, so maybe that research isn't as reliable as I thought. The book you mentioned seems a bit dated, but that's interesting nonetheless (although I question polygraph reliability)

[–]kwallio 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

IMO its one of the best books out there on domestic violence, just because a book is old doesn't mean that data is no good anymore.

I question polygraph reliability too, but the point isn't whether polygraphs are reliable or not but whether the domestic abusers they were hooked up to knew that polygraphs were unreliable. I don't think they did, so I think the change in their answers with/without the polygraph is significant.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh I didn't realize they changed their answers, I misunderstood you! That's actually very interesting and seems to hold more weight like you say. I should give it a read, it does look interesting--I just know a lot can change in academia in even just a few years, I don't doubt that much or even maybe most of the information is still accurate, though.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If no one asks about or inquires into children, teens and adults' histories of dysphoria and traumatic events, then there's no problem, huh!

I know at least one case when father was prosecuted when tried to trans his daughter, so she can't get pregnant from his sexual abuse.

And remember PIE? Especially their wants to lower consent age and to allow doctors to install intrauterine contraceptive devices in girls starting age 9-10. Current push "after most goals are achieved, but we need more" looks similar to that.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well that's horrifying. It makes sense though, and just confirms my suspicions even more. This is so alarming, people would be outraged if they knew about that and connected all the dots. I mean, it's so evident and plain as day what these sick but powerful adults are trying to do (or I feel it is, anyways)

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The fact that they made total, unquestioning affirmation the default treatment and yet they still are pushing for more when there seemingly isn't anything else to advocate/fight for seems like there is an alternate motive behind such activism.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it seems like some kind of coordinated effort. Why the sudden unbridled enthusiasm for medical transition of children? People on Ovarit say all the time that Big Pharma has its hooks in the gender movement. They've donated huge amounts of money to the Democratic party in the USA and to the Liberal Democrats in the UK:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/puberty-blocker-drug-firm-donated-cash-to-lib-dems-cf3x77nh3

http://www.pharmafile.com/news/561370/pharmaceutical-industry-donating-more-democrats-republicans-lead-2020-election

Again, I'm skeptical by nature, but you'd have to be naive not to even suspect that maybe something is going on.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (1 child)

I thought it was great and a well balanced report.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I'm glad someone on the QT side agrees! Fair and well balanced should be the goal.