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[–]SnowAssMan 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (88 children)

It's actually just trans cult propaganda that trans people's gender identity is mismatched. Gender identity is real & it ironically undermines the transgender "woman-trapped-in-a-man's-body" hypothesis.

The proper term is cross-gender identification & is determined by self-identification (most will claim that gender dysphoria determines it, even though only max 0.01% of the population has gender dysphoria, while 0.6% identify as transgender).

Gender identity is determined by socialisation. Every transgender person was socialised according to the norms associated with their sex, rather than their preferred sex. That's why their gendered behavioural trends still match the trends of their sex. As always the male population compared to the female population within the trans community are overrepresented in: politics, media, crime, HIV distribution, propensity for paraphilias.

“Socialization theory offers a straightforward account of the acquisition of gendered identities. Infants are seen as blank slates, waiting to be written down on by their environment […]

[…] Reinforcement (through rewarding gender-appropriate behavior and punishing what may seem as deviant behavior) socializes children into their genders […]

[…] For example, are far more likely to engage with their sons in rough physical play than they are with their daughters, and it has been argued that long-term consequences may follow (in this case, a head start for boys in the development of physical violence and aggressiveness)

[…] These types of influences can include parental attitudes and difference of treatment regarding male and female children

[…] A study of infants aged 13 months found that when boys demand attention — by behaving aggressively, or crying, whining or screaming — they tended to get it. By contrast, adults tended to respond to girls only when they used language, gestures, or gentle touches; girls who used attention-seeking techniques were likely ignored. There was little difference in the communicative patterns at the start of the study, but by the age of two, the girls have become more talkative and boys more assertive in their communicative techniques”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_gender#Gender_and_socialization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization#Gender_socialization

"The social learning theory posits that children furthermore develop their gender identity through observing and imitating gender-linked behaviors, and then being rewarded or punished for behaving that way" Myers, David G. (2008). Psychology. New York: Worth.

"Gender identity is the extent to which one identifies as being either masculine or feminine (Diamond 2002) Many theorists maintain that gender identity as well as the prescriptions and proscriptions (what is acceptable and what is not) of gender roles are acquired through the process of socialization" (Durkin 1995; Mackey and Hess 1982; Peirce 1989; Remafedi 1990)

Mackey and Hess (1982:212) point out that "the socialization process includes the development of gender identity, as well as the learning of the dominant social definitions of reality, including gender-roles."

In conclusion autogynaephiles & homosexual transgenderists/transsexuals are male by both nature AND nurture.

There are however people whose gender identity is mismatched. They are people who were brought up as the opposite sex, usually due to a congenital disorder of the genitals, like the participants in this study: https://sites.oxy.edu/clint/physio/article/GenderIdentityOutcomeinFemaleRaised46XYPersonswithPenileAgenesisCloacalExstrophyoftheBladderorPenileAblation.pdf

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (83 children)

Are you saying everyone has a "gender identity"?

“Socialization theory offers a straightforward account of the acquisition of gendered identities. Infants are seen as blank slates, waiting to be written down on by their environment […]

I thought the "blank slate" theory was debunked eons ago. In the 1970s, when I studied how humans develop a sense of self and level of self-esteem, it certainly was seen as untrue.

Humans come into the world with the temperaments, traits & potentials that constitute personality as well as with physical bodies that look & work a certain way and have capacities & limitations. How each of us thinks & feels about our temperament, traits & potential - and about our bodily aspects, abilities & appearance - is the result of learning through socialization. But children are not "blank slates" onto which any script can be written.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (82 children)

Temperament doesn't determine much though. I don't think being born with certain predispositions adequately debunks blank slate theory. As far as I know, the sociological approach is that practically everything is socially determined.

Gender in this case is just a collective word for the two separate cultures males & females are inculcated into.

Gender identity is a social identity, not a personal identity. It's like how you can have 3 children from the same household, who may all have subtle differences in the way they speak, but they all share the same accent.

Feminism probably wouldn't exist without women identifying with their gender identity, since studies find that if you increase a woman's personal identity salience, thereby decreasing their gender identity salience, she becomes less outraged by sexist situations.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (81 children)

So it seems you are indeed saying that everyone has a "gender identity."

I disagree with this. I don't have a "gender identity." Nor do most people.

I also disagree with your contention that

practically everything is socially determined.

Yes, people who grew up in the same household will usually have the same accent. But they also will have different & separate bodies, entirely different personalities & POVs, & different experiences and perceptions. They will remember the same exact events in totally different ways. If children's innate temperaments didn't matter, we'd all be just like our siblings and our parents. And our own kids would be like one another and ourselves.

I don't understand your distinction between "social identity" and "personal identity." We all develop our sense of self within a social context. And in the material world of flesh and blood physicality and objective, observable facts too. We all have bodies that we can misperceive and disassociate from, but never can escape until we die. Even when we are asleep or in a coma, our bodies exist in material reality.

The idea that all people have a "personal identity" and/or "gender identity" that can be entirely of our choosing & invention that we then attempt to impose on the world by publicly announcing "this is how I identify" and "these are my labels/pronouns" and expecting or demanding that everyone else play along is entirely new. And to me, it's silly & daft.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (80 children)

Of course everyone is an individual, but culture exists. Not everyone who shares a culture is the same, but they all share a culture in common. Gender identity is like culture. Saying you don't have a gender identity, is like saying you don't have a culture. There is no such thing as a human being without a culture (except for a feral child maybe, or a recluse, or a child who travelled a lot with international parents).

Sexism is an ism because it's systemic. We all have the same biases, including parents. Parents know their child's sex & are biased accordingly. It colours their upbringing style. For instance, parents are more critical of their female infants' crawling abilities than their male ones. There are countless things like that which will obviously affect the child, especially when half the population is treated one way & the other half another way.

If we were all unique individuals then a series like Harry Potter would only appeal to 1 person, not en masse (with mostly female hardcore fans).

The same way you can't choose your culture is the same way you can't choose your gender identity. Cross-gender self-identification doesn't undo socialisation, otherwise all the transgender sex offenders would be female instead of male.

[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

You're the only who I've seen defining "gender identity" this way. Usually, QT defines "gender identity" as how someone perceives themself or how well they align with societal expectations for their sex. That is why they really can't explain it without rely on sexist stereotypes.

I don't believe in this stuff, therefore I don't have a "gender identity". I don't identify as a woman, but I know I'm one. How much I live up (or not) to the feminine ideals in my culture doesn't change my sex.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

It's just the nurture half of the nature vs. nurture debate. I didn't make it up. See my citations.

The trans cult's modus operandi is to appropriate terms & change all their definitions to: cross-gender self-identification. Gender, gender identity, boy, girl, man, woman, even male & female have all be appropriated & re-defined as all referring to cross-gender self-identification. 'Sex' will probably be next.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But nature vs. nuture is entirely different to the blank slate theory you've espoused.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's a debate. The nurture side of the debate sides with blank slate theory.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

Yeah, appropriation is TRA's modus operandi, but I don't think that is the case for the term "gender identity". If I'm not mistaken it was the infamous John Money who coined this term to explain transsexualism and justify the "sex change" of babies with certain DSDs. And I've only seen the term "gender identity" in the contex of intersex and transgenderism/transsexualism. I think Money said that everyone have a "gender identity", but most people through the world and human history didn't/don't think about this stuff that much. We have known we have a sex for millennia and humans have prescribed certain roles for each sex, but it's only recently that some are saying that sex is a spectrum, that you can change sex or that "gender identity" should be prioritized over sex. Until some year ago, for me gender only belonged to grammar. "Gender identity" is a transgenderism specific concept that cannot be scientifically proved, so I've no desire to start using it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The term "gender identity" & the ideas behind it were coined by US psychiatrist Robert Stoller. He was a sexologist who did a lot of work on "transsexualism" & published influential books on the topics of masculinity, femininity & "gender identity" in the 1960s & 70s. He and John Money were colleagues, albeit at different institutions in the US. Stoller was at UCLA; Money at Johns Hopkins.

Stoller came up with "gender identity" in treating adult patients. Money used the idea to justify experimenting on children.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I see. Thanks for the correction! Though, that means that "gender identity" was indeed associated with transsexualism from the beginning.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

The trans cult says the opposite. They reject John Money for being an espouser of the socialisation of gender identity. He is infamous for trying to re-socialise Reimer. They believe his failure to re-socialise Reimer proves gender identity is innate, when the real reason he failed is because he just sexually abused a 2 year old under the guise of female socialisation.

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

I've known about gender identity since before the trans thing blew up, so it doesn't stem from them & it's not a synonym for 'feminine essence theory'. They just want their dumb biologically-determined hypothesis to sound more legitimate by appropriating the term for the socially-determined theory.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

Really? I thought that the research on males with DSDs around the world shows the exact opposite. For example, in a wide variety of cultures most males with 5-ARD - the male DSD that Caster Semenya has - who have been raised as girls decide to adopt a male "gender identity" during or after the puberty of adolescence. I think what you say only applies to those with CAIS.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Just because TRA have adapted the concept more to their liking, it doesn't change the fact that it was John Money who coined the term "gender identity". Tough, if you know of someone who used the term before him, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Even putting aside the medical and sexual abuse of David Reimer, Money's experiment was bound to fail. First of all, an experiment with a sample of just one person has very low statistic value even if you're using his twin as control. Also, he was bound to find the truth sooner or later. He should notice eventually that he was not like other girls. Like, for example, how would he explain his lack of menarch and his parent's lack of worry about it?

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

I'm not sure if that is the case. As far as I read about peopple with DSDs, it seems like their self-identification is usually consistent with their phenotype. For example, males with CAIS view themselves as women. Males with PAIS tend to report more unsatisfying experiences whether they are raised as girls or as boys. Males with 5 alfa reductase deficience tend to view temselves as men; even more, many of the males who are mistaken and raised as girls adopt a male identity at puberty when their bodies get virilized by the increase in testosterone.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

The Guevedoces in the Dominican Republic are kind of the opposite.

Imperato-McGinley's thorough medical investigations showed that in most cases their new, male equipment seems to work fine and that most Guevedoces live out their lives as men, though some go through an operation and remain female.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981

Although I wonder how much their choice is influenced by the higher status that men obviously have. Still if you look like a man and have male equipment, what would keep any of them identifying as female beyond mere familiarity?

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

Not everyone who shares a culture is the same, but they all share a culture in common. Gender identity is like culture. Saying you don't have a gender identity, is like saying you don't have a culture.

This is nonsense. We are not all just sponges for culture. Some people absorb all the cultural messages they are exposed to without questioning them; other people question from an early age.

Moreover, not all cultures are monocultures. Most are not. Yet even in monocultures there is not necessarily total uniformity, conformity & sameness from house to house, or from one region to the next.

The cultural milieu I was raised in was Roman Catholic. I went to Catholic school, was fed a daily diet of dogma. I didn't believe in most of the dogma as a kid even when it was being shoved down my throat. I don't believe in it now. None of my siblings and viritually none of the kids I attended Catholic school with grew up to be devout practicing Catholics.

The cultural milieu I was raised in was also multifaceted. Staying on the religion angle only: Although I was raised Roman Catholic, and my parents were both observant RCs, I grew up with many friends and family friends of different religions. One of my uncles had studied to become a Catholic priest but later went to SE Asia, converted to Buddhism & married a Buddhist woman. Another uncle who was basically my second father was an atheist. Growing up, I spent a lot of time hanging out with and often in the homes of Jewish & Protestant friends. Some of my Jewish friends were extremely religious, kept kosher, strictly observed the sabbath; others were far less observant. Also knew some Hindus. The next door neighbors on side of my childhood home were of eastern European Jewish ethnic heritage but were prominent atheists who were also socialists and raised their kids to be "red diaper babies."

The long and short of it is, although the culture I was raised in was strictly Roman Catholic at the very same time it was characterized by pluralism, tolerance and diversity. Even thought my parents were strict RCs, they also were intellectuals who disagreed with one another on many topics and encouraged critical thought in their kids. In my family, arguing over religion, politics & all sorts of cultural matters was part of everyday life. I learned from an early age that different families have different beliefs/cultures, eat different foods, go about things in different ways, etc - and that within each family or household individual members will have different beliefs to one another.

We all have the same biases, including parents. Parents know their child's sex & are biased accordingly.

No, not all people have the same biases. All people are not equally sexist. Parents are not all equally into imposing sex stereotypes on their children. The people who live in the next house or apartment to yours might have very different views.

Families can act as conduits for the larger culture, or bulwarks against it.

Some people respond to sexism and sexist stereotypes by embracing and eroticizing them. Some people respond to sexism & sex stereotyping by challenging & rejecting them. There are many posters on this very sub whose responses to the sexism we/they were exposed to growing up & face every day are totally different.

Moreover, as people age and they get more life experience, our views and beliefs often change too. Some people become more sexist with age, some people less so.

The same way you can't choose your culture is the same way you can't choose your gender identity.

I am not saying that we can choose the culture we grow up in or live in. I am saying that a) not everyone lives in a monoculture and b) not everyone is a passive recipient of culture who simply swallows all the beliefs & biases fed to them. Cultures are multifaceted, multi-dimensional, often full of contradictions and given to change over time. Even in places where there's a state religion and culture is imposed from on high, like in Iran, you will find that in the privacy of people's homes there is diversity of opinion and customs.

you can't choose your gender identity.

Please stop telling me that I have a gender identity and that I cannot say or choose otherwise. That's not debating. That's dictating to me that because you believe in something, then I must believe in it too.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

How does any of that erase culture? Gender identity is like cultural identity, except it isn't as multi-dimensional, because there are only two options with varying degrees of emphasis on conformity to them. Why is it that girls do better on maths exams if, shortly before it starts, they are introduced to a female mathematician? How can she act as a better role model for girls, than a male one could?

It's called implicit bias for a reason. We're all sexist, only different in degrees of sexism. We don't notice our sexist tendencies. That's why a lot of studies on sexist implicit bias have to be double-blind studies in order to actually record the bias accurately, because the examiners share the implicit biases with the participants!

If I said you have a cultural identity, I doubt you'd vigorously dispute it. What's the difference between cultural identity & gender identity that makes gender identity so implausible to you? Actually, ... thinking about it, you probably would argue that you don't have a cultural identity.

If you're a young, budding director in the US, people tell you that you'll be the next Spielberg (the hack lol), while in France the same talent in a young person would be likened to Goddard (someone who pushed the boundaries). French directors end up being more creative than directors from other cultures, because they had a superior role model.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

Honestly, the more I read you, the more I think you're mixing up or maybe combining the TRA's concept of "gender identity" with the feminist's concept of gender.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Gender is masculinity & femininity. Gender identity is what Simone de Beauvoir was talking about when she said "one is not born but becomes a woman":

"That formula [one is not born but made a woman] is the basis of all my theories & it’s meaning is very simple: that being a woman is not a natural fact. It’s a result of a certain history. There is no biological or psychological destiny that defines a woman as such. She is the product of a history, of civilisation, first of all, which has resulted in her current status. And secondary for each individual woman of her personal history in particular, that of her childhood. This determines her as a woman, creates in her something which is not at all innate, or an essence, something which has been called the “eternal feminine”, or femininity. The more we study the psychology of children the deeper we delve, the more evident it becomes that baby girls are manufactured to become women […] Long before a child is conscious, the way it is breastfed, or held, or rocked etc. inscribes in its body what might later appear a destiny”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3u1A0Mrjjw

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gender is masculinity & femininity. Gender identity is what Simone de Beauvoir was talking about when she said "one is not born but becomes a woman":

There's the sleight of hand. You start off speaking of gender in your first sentence. And in that sentence you describe it accurately. But in the next breath you suddenly leap to gender identity.

What I & others are trying to tell you is that not everyone raised according to norms & codes of masculinity & femininity - gender - has a gender identity the way you keep insisting everyone does.

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

This quote means that femininity - womanhood, in the terminology she uses - is a trauma, a stunting, not an identity. Making a girl into a woman is like making a tree into a bonsai. Does a bonsai tree have an identity as a bonsai? No, it has just been tortured all its life to shape it into what somebody with power over it thinks is beautiful.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Did Simone de Beauvoir ever used the term "gender identity"? I'll confess I'm not well-read in feminist theory or philosophy, which is why I usually stick to biology. However, to me in this paragraph she is talking about gender roles, not "gender identity". It's late here, so I'll watch the video later.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You don't address any of the issues I have raised. You just keep moving the goal posts and introducing new topics.

I've never suggested humans don't have a culture or that we aren't products of culture! I have objected to your simplistic portrayals of all cultures as equally, uniformly sexist monocultures with no nuance, gradations or contradictions. I have questioned your insistence on the much-debunked idea that all human beings are "blank slates." And I have objected to your portrayal of all people as nothing but passive absorbers of the culture they were raised with & live in, and your view that all parents are equally sexist authoritarians whose main goal is raising their own kids according to sex stereotypes & inculcating them with sexist beliefs.

What's the difference between cultural identity & gender identity that makes gender identity so implausible to you? Actually, ... thinking about it, you probably would argue that you don't have a cultural identity.

Please don't put words in my mouth. You are coming off as incredibly arrogant. You can't read my mind. I am perfectly willing to discuss such topics as cultural identity, ethnic identity, national identity, religious identity, regional identity, class identity and so on. But those are very different topics to gender identity. And gender identity is the topic here.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You keep reinterpreting what I'm saying, by removing any nuance to make me sound ridiculous. I specifically said:

We're all sexist, only different in degrees of sexism

& this:

Gender identity is like cultural identity, except it isn't as multi-dimensional, because there are only two options with varying degrees of emphasis on conformity to them.

Your response:

I have objected to your simplistic portrayals of all cultures as equally, uniformly sexist monocultures with no nuance, gradations or contradictions.

Do you honestly think that yours is a fair representation of what I've been saying? "Degrees" is a synonym of "gradations".

I am perfectly willing to discuss such topics as cultural identity, ethnic identity, national identity, religious identity, regional identity, class identity and so on. But those are very different topics to gender identity.

I can only repeat myself. Gender identity is just like cultural identity, except there's only two of them. How can class identify be a thing, but somehow gender identity isn't? That seems totally inconsistent. What is stopping gender identity from being like class, nationality, ethnicity identities?

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What is stopping gender identity from being like class, nationality, ethnicity identities?

Everyone has a socioeconomic status based on their own or their family or household income, level of wealth & accumulated assets, or lack thereof. Everyone was born in a place on earth that can be found on a map and is legally defined as a nation or territory. Some people end up stateless, but even they were born in a land/on land that exists in material fact and the precise spot can be located by longitude & latitude. Everyone has parents and a family lineage and ancestors who started out in one part of the world or another & whose genes & customs have been passed on, and therefore an ethnicity.

But not everyone has a gender identity!

Gender identity is like religion. Just because many people believe in religion & have a religious identity doesn't mean everyone does.

Last year or so, Ray Blanchard - or maybe it was Ken Zucker - pointed out on Twitter that most "normal" people do not have a gender identity. We have an awareness that we are male or female, but this is just one of the many facts & beliefs about ourselves that is incorporated into our overall concept of self. It's not the linchpin of our entire sense of self. The only people who've traditionally had a gender identity are those who have an issue with their sex and wish they were the opposite sex, or of no sex.

But nowadays, a psychological phenomenon once seen in a teensy-tiny proportion of the population is being assumed to be universal amongst all humans. I have no problem with you & others saying you/they have a gender identity. My issue is with you & others insisting that everyone has one. And with you telling me I have a gender identity whether I like it or not, and that I have no choice in the matter.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Gender identity is real & it ironically undermines the transgender "woman-trapped-in-a-man's-body" hypothesis. The proper term is cross-gender identification & is determined by self-identification (most will claim that gender dysphoria determines it, even though only max 0.01% of the population has gender dysphoria, while 0.6% identify as transgender).

Gender identity is determined by socialisation. Every transgender person was socialised according to the norms associated with their sex, rather than their preferred sex. That's why their gendered behavioural trends still match the trends of their sex. ...

There are however people whose gender identity is mismatched. They are people who were brought up as the opposite sex, usually due to a congenital disorder of the genitals, like the participants in this study

So which is it, determined by self-identification or socialization or congenital disorders?

Could you just define "gender identity" please?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So which is it, determined by self-identification or socialization or congenital disorders?

You're honestly this confused? How many more times do I need to say that it's determined by socialisation, like any other social identity? Transgender people prove that you can't undo socialisation e.g. transgender sex offenders are male, instead of female.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yes I'm still this confused. Could you please just define what gender identity is?

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender identity is a type of social identity shaped by the individual's gendered socialisation. Shaping of identity takes place in the form of direct tuition/differential reinforcement & modelling. Identity salience is the probability that a social or role identity will be invoked & is directly proportional to the resulting identity-related behaviours.

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My definition of 'gender identity' is what others like Tentacles shared, the sense of oneself as a male or female. I don't really believe in that anymore, but that was my understanding of it. So, the recognition of oneself that they are a boy/girl/man/woman, which doesn't seem sexist unless that sense is based on something other than actual sex and is given precedence over actual sex. It seems like a nice concept for transsexuals or people with gender dysphoria, helping make sense of something that doesn't really make sense. For me it was nice because it helped me feel less crazy, and I took it as a given fact since 'gender identity' was in the name (Gender Identity Disorder). But looking at it now, it obviously relies on sex role stereotypes and further encourages trans identities and transitioning.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So, the recognition of oneself that they are a boy/girl/man/woman, which doesn't seem sexist unless that sense is based on something other than actual sex and is given precedence over actual sex. ... But looking at it now, it obviously relies on sex role stereotypes

If nothing else, it's appropriative. A man doesn't know what it feels like to be a woman or vice versa. I see GC women often reply to the idea by saying they don't feel like a woman. I rather think I do feel like a woman, because what else would I feel like? I don't know what it would feel like to be anything else, other than a girl. All of my experiences are physical; I will feel female until I cease to feel at all. And I don't understand why that is taken as reductive to so many people. Biology is our only access point; it is endlessly expansive.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (51 children)

Gender identity is the personal conception of oneself as male, female, both or neither. So it's basically how you perceive yourself? I see myself as female, and would see myself as female regardless of my birth sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 5 fun17 insightful - 4 fun18 insightful - 5 fun -  (45 children)

I see myself as female, and would see myself as female regardless of my birth sex.

How can you be so certain? It's like saying that I see myself as American-born because the US is where my mother gave birth to me, and I would still see myself as American-born even if I'd actually been born in Bolivia, Russia or Japan. Or that I see myself as "white" and of northern European heritage coz of my coloring, certain physical characteristics & family history, and I'd still see myself in exactly the same way even if I was black and of East African heritage or Asian of Korean heritage.

Your conviction that you have a fixed, immutable female "gender identity" that would remain in place even if your sex were male suggests that you see "gender identity" as a spiritual essence that exists entirely apart from your physical body and will outlive your body after death. In other words, a soul.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (44 children)

I am certain. If I was born male, I would transition via hormones and surgery, because being male would cause me dysphoria. Yes, gender identity is somewhat of a spiritual essence, and I am in essence, a female. I'm lucky I was born female, so I don't need to transition.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think your female spiritual essence existed before you, and will continue on after you die?

Can you explain how/when during your development your female spiritual essence got placed in or attached to your body?

[–]SnowAssMan 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (39 children)

You say this a lot. Like, you always volunteer this information, unprompted. The lady doth protest too much methinks. I don't know anyone who would insist that if they had to live as the opposite sex they'd have crippling dysphoria & make any & every attempt to change their sex. You can have your agenda without being so patronising about it.

You are not trans, like most of us here, so it's not like you have a unique insight. We are all capable of putting ourselves in the exact same situation you outlined. I personally can safely say, if I woke up tomorrow & I was female I'd hate it, but I'd just deal with it. I wouldn't self-identify as a man & use a masculine name & pronouns. I wouldn't take hormones that would make me go bald & grow a beard nor would I amputate my breasts.

The penis, the height & not having to be female, are the only things worthwhile about being male anyway, but transition can't give you any of those things.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The penis, the height & not having to be female

A little redundant, no?

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Some of us females do have height, anyway.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ha yes. But having a penis and not having to be female definitely warrant different categories, they are both so hugely significant and grand. I mean imagine you get the penis and then additionally avoid any icky femaley reality, you don't HAVE TO DO IT; could life be better? Let us count the ways.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (35 children)

You say this a lot. Like, you always volunteer this information, unprompted. The lady doth protest too much methinks.

This is my way of explaining gender identity and dysphoria and it's true.

I don't know anyone who would insist that if they had to live as the opposite sex they'd have crippling dysphoria & make any & every attempt to change their sex.

Well now you know someone who does. Also, many trans people themselves say they have crippling dysphoria.

You are not trans, like most of us here, so it's not like you have a unique insight.

A lot of us on this sub are also not trans.

I personally can safely say, if I woke up tomorrow & I was female I'd hate it, but I'd just deal with it. I wouldn't self-identify as a man & use a masculine name & pronouns. I wouldn't take hormones that would make me go bald & grow a beard nor would I amputate my breasts.

That's you. Also, cis men with gynecomastia have surgery to remove their large breasts. Do you call that ?amputation

The penis, the height & not having to be female, are the only things worthwhile about being male anyway, but transition can't give you any of those things.

The only thing you can't change via transition is your height. Trans men can have a penis via SRS.

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only thing you can't change via transition is your height. Trans men can have a penis via SRS.

Please don't spread lies like these. Coz young people see them and as might believe them. "Transition" changes very little physically. A "transman" will still have XX chromosomes, female immune function, a female pelvis, female femurs, a female heart, a female respiratory system and so on. Transition doesn't cause a female person to grow larger hands and feet, a larger left ventricle, bigger lungs or to develop male grip strength.

What female people get via "SRS" is not a penis. Nothing like a penis.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

The only thing you can't change via transition is your height. Trans men can have a penis via SRS.

It didn't work that way for this "trans man".

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (28 children)

The problem is that doctors failed to ask for his birth sex, not him presenting as a man. Also, I don't trust sources that purposefully misgender trans people. Many trans people are fighting for better health care and we need to join the fight by listening to trans men.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

The problem is that professionals who should know better caved to the trans lobby and started using gender identity rather than sex in medical records. Also, Whitley was so happy with all this "validation" that Whitley didn't think of challenging the doctors' misperceptions. But that is beside th point. If it were true that you can change everything but height through "transition", then why would "birth" sex matter at all in trans identified patients' health care?

I don't trust sources that purposefully misgender trans people.

Just in case you think this story is made up, they list this BBC article as their source.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (14 children)

I'm not saying the story is made up. I'm saying GC sites like womenarehuman.com have no business pretending to advocate for trans men. Trans men have said over and over again they do not want gender critical activism.

Take a look at r/FTM. There are 20+ threads complaining about "TERFs". There are also many articles on other sites written by trans men complaining about "TERFs" and mind you GCs consider TERF a slur. So that means they don't want your activism. In contrast I found only ONE thread on r/FTM complaining about trans women, yet GCs keep saying trans women talk over trans men. This is obviously a GC concern more than trans men's concern.

To be an ally to a group, you have to listen to actual members of that group, not impose your own ideas. Imagine a white self-proclaimed ally saying "well, that interaction wasn't really racist" when multiple POC say otherwise? Besides the blatant misgendering, trans men are a marginalized community and its rude and gross to speak over people who made it clear they don't want you to speak for them.

Trans men are fighting for better healthcare. Just yesterday there was a thread on r/FTM titled I hate when I feel like there’s something wrong with my reproductive stuff and I try to see what the problem is and how to fix it but everything is labeled as “WOMEN” “GIRL” and “FEMALE.”. I know this is contradictory to what GCs want, as they call for eliminating the terms women and girls for health issues traditionally considered "female" But GCs and trans men have opposite agendas, which is why GCs should never speak for trans men and trans men should never speak for GC. GCs do their activism. Trans men and their allies do their activism.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Take a look at r/FTM

Reddit has a reliability factor somewhere between bending the truth and untreated schizophrenia. Surely there are better sources.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Trans men have said over and over again they do not want gender critical activism

Conservative women say the same thing.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

How are GC suppused to get our point across if we are not allowed to talk about trans people?! (I assume you don't like we speak for "trans women" and people with other "gender identities", either, right?) You've said yourself: we have opposite goals, that is why we need to talk. Why are transactivists the only ones allowed to talk about women's rights?

Moreover, I also care about science and public health. That is why I talk (and share articles) about how transgenderism affects these areas.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The problem is that doctors failed to ask for his birth sex, not him presenting as a man.

See, this I disagree with 1000%. Many people have medically-relevant physical conditions or have engaged in medically-relevant behaviors that are not apparent on sight but which we are obliged to inform HCPs of when we seek care coz these conditions & behaviors might well affect diagnosis and treatment.

IMHO, it's arrogant and preposterous for people like this "trans man" to expect that HCFs and the intake nurses who work in ERs & other HCFs should suddenly adopt new entirely standards and protocols to placate a population that only recently has emerged and which has done nothing to persuade the medical profession or wider public of why we have to adopt new ways.

This is not how women in the 1970s got the term "Ms." widely accepted as substitute for "Miss" and "Mrs."

Also, if this "trans man" were asked to state her sex, who's to say that she would have responded honestly?

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

IMHO, it's arrogant and preposterous for people like this "trans man" to expect that HCFs and the intake nurses who work in ERs & other HCFs should suddenly adopt new entirely standards and protocols to placate a population that only recently has emerged and which has done nothing to persuade the medical profession or wider public of why we have to adopt new ways.

Here are a list trans people from the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Eleanor Rykener, Alan L. Hart, Lucy Hicks Anderson, Amelio Robles Ávila, Sir Lady Java, Willmer ‘Little Ax” Broadnax, Chevalier d’Eon, Harry Allen, Michael Dillon and Charley Parkhurst. Trans people have not "recently emerged". We are persuading the wider public. You just disagree on how to go about it.

Also, if this "trans man" were asked to state her sex, who's to say that she would have responded honestly?

It's he and yes trans people do tell doctors their birth sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's he and yes trans people do tell doctors their birth sex.

Except in the particular case we are discussing the person didn't reveal this information.

Also, FYI in health care the front line people doing the crucial gatekeeping are usually never doctors. People with hidden health conditions and medically relevant behaviors have a duty to reveal their/our situations to people doing the intake. Whether those people be the EMS workers who respond to a 911 or 999 call, the triage nurse in an ER/AE, the administrator who takes your details, or the other parties on the line in a virtual medical consult.

That list of "trans people" from prior centuries isn't the convincing proof you think it is.

[–]strictly 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't trust sources that purposefully misgender trans people.

Misgendering requires using gender definitions as one cannot misgender someone without first referring to gender identity. Do you have quote proving that this source states that they consider male and female gender identities? Because if they refer to sex they can by definition not misgender, only mis-sex, and calling female people female is correctly-sexing, not mis-sexing. But even if this source had mis-sexed this female person as "male" then I don't think this person would have minded it as many trans people have being mis-sexed as a goal for them.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

Misgendering is using terms and pronouns that person said they do not prefer. Was it so hard for them to type he, him, his, and Mr.?

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Missexing someone is confusing and inaccurate. I don't trust sources that call men "she" and women "he". It would be a lot harder to destroy women's sports and spaces if media sources accurately sexed people in their articles. He broke all of the women sports records. He was transferred to a women's prison and shortly assaulted prisoners. He is demanding access to women's locker rooms. Accurately sexing people put's these issues in a much clearer light.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Misgendering is using terms and pronouns that person said they do not prefer.

Misgendering, as the name indicates, is lying about someone having a gender identity they don't have. Calling someone a pronoun they don't prefer is not proof of misgendering as you need evidence the person indeed referred to a false gender identity, and a prerequirement for that is that speaker uses a gender identity based system for their pronoun usage as otherwise they wouldn’t be able to refer to a false gender identity in the first place. The most likely perpetrator of misgendering is thus a trans activist, as they have the required belief system to perform misgendering (and trans activists happen to be quite keen on misgendering non-trans people with false gender identities).

If you refer to something else than lying about gender identities with misgendering then you are using the wrong word for it and should use a more accurate word representing the phenomena you have in mind.

Was it so hard for them to type he, him, his, and Mr.?

I don't use a gender identity based system for pronouns so it would be lying of me to call a known female "he". Lying isn't hard but it's against my morals. I don't use a gender identity based system as that almost inevitably leads to misgendering people en masse and I happen to have strong negative feelings against misgendering (a lie about the mind) as that would be much more personal than any accidental mis-sexing, no one should ever have to be labeled with a false gender identity.

[–]grixitperson 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Misgendering" is a false concept.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is my way of explaining gender identity and dysphoria and it's true [...] Well now you know someone who does

No one asked. The more you say it, the less convincing it sounds. It just sounds like someone desperately trying to push an agenda. Everyone can tell how counter-intuitive your supposed reaction to being the opposite sex would be. It sounds so unconvincing, but the trans cult method is to always repeat gibberish indefinitely in the hopes that it'll sound more convincing the more people read/hear it. The reason we are here is because we're immune to that tactic.

cis men with gynecomastia have surgery to remove their large breasts. Do you call that ?amputation

Breasts on a woman aren't incongruous. They certainly aren't due to a condition called "gynecomastia". Only men can have gynecomastia.

Trans men can have a penis via SRS.

Purely cosmetic. When I said having a penis was one of the only things worthwhile about being male, I wasn't taking about the way it looks. There are people who believe that surgeons are magicians. I'm not one of those people.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Purely cosmetic. When I said having a penis was one of the only things worthwhile about being male, I wasn't taking about the way it looks.

I think it's not even that. Some time ago, there was a post in the GC sub that showed an picture of the "neopenis" of a "trans man". It didn't looked like a penis, like at all.

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Also, cis men with gynecomastia have surgery to remove their large breasts.

Very rarely, though. Haven't you seen tons of regular dudes in public with moobs?

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, the breast tissue that males with gynecomastia might have removed in surgery is entirely different to the breast tissue of female people.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is so ridiculous argument. You don't know what you would be thinking then - you would grow up with different surroundings, different abilities, as a different person, most likely you would have different if not opposite views on some questions, you would be just different person, so your reaction would be very different to yours now. Our experience is what is making us ourselves for the most part.

[–]Juniperius 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only way you could have been born male is if you had been conceived male. The only way you could have been conceived male is if a different sperm, one bearing a Y chromosome instead of an X, had combined with the egg in your mother's fallopian tube. A different sperm would have led to an entirely different individual, not you at all. You can't make the claim that if you had been born male you would have had any particular feelings about it, because you wouldn't have been you at all.

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is very interesting. I don't see it as a spiritual essence for me, but I think I've seen a lot of other people who do see it that way. Before transgenderism and transsexualism became as well-known as they are now, I had never heard of a gender identity until learning about Gender Identity Disorder. When I was growing up I wondered if everyone else thought they were supposed to be the opposite sex, but came to learn that no, they do not. But I came to understand that gender identity only is a thing because of GID and transsexualism to try and explain our condition. Years ago I would have never imagined that people would be talking about gender identities in public discourse, it's really surreal!

I'm very curious: does awareness of the concept of a gender identity help you in any way? I have difficulty understanding why non-trans people have an interest in this, and even defend it, so I would really like to know how gender identity benefits non-trans people.

[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

But what is a female to you? And what is a male? You've never told us that. The closest thing to a definition that you gave us was something about comfort with the sex related features of your body. And that because you're female you'd freak out if you had a penis, something that many "trans women" would find transphobic (because most of them aren't distressed by their penises and, in fact, most do keep them).

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So why do you perceive yourself as female? How exactly could a male bodied person even have an inkling of a clue what it is like to exist in a female body? Explain what this female essence is.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender identity is the personal conception of oneself as male, female, both or neither. So it's basically how you perceive yourself?

Correct -- that's part of QT's official description of how gender works.

The full formula (indulge me GC, I'm just reporting this as faithfully as I can):

Sex is based on anatomy and is assigned at birth (AFAB, AMAB)

Gender is a social construct that correlates with sex as a binary (female, male); we are born agender and socialized to the gender corresponding with our birth sex in accordance with the gender binary

Gender identity: the internally felt sense of one's true gender (some writers take this beyond the gender binary)

Gender expression: the internally driven behaviors associated with gender (ideally, gender identity and gender expression will align)

Gender role: culturally mandated activities associated with gender (often aligns with with gender identity, but this may vary)

Cissexual: birth sex aligns with gender identity

GNC, transgender, transsexual: birth sex is at odds with gender identity

Sexual orientation: exists apart from gender identity, expression, and role; might correlate, might not

GD is a categorically different experience due to its psych status, so I've left it off here.

Source (GLAAD used to have an explainer page which I can no longer find; various universities have student-oriented explainers - SUNY, Wisconsin, etc.)

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So it's basically how you perceive yourself?

I am aware I am female the same way female people who identify as men are aware they are female. All female transitioners who identify as men perceive themselves as female as taking testosterone to imitate appearance of the male sex requires having a female perception, had they been unaware of their own femaleness they wouldn’t been able to be dysphoric about their female sex and thus wouldn’t be trans to begin with.

I see myself as female, and would see myself as female regardless of my birth sex.

Then you don’t mean you see yourself as female when you say you see yourself as female as you you don’t refer to female but a gender identity. If female and male are gender identities then according your definition above a gender identity is the personal conception of oneself of having a gender identity, another gender identity, both or neither. That’s a circular definition.

If I was born male, I would transition via hormones and surgery, because being male would cause me dysphoria.

When I have asked people it seems be like fifty fifty, half not caring if they had been born the opposite sex and half who would rather not (but those who said they would rather not said they still wouldn't transition but as transition can't make someone the opposite sex, so they would rather just come to term with it). So if gender identity is body preferences then it would make it morally wrong to call someone a gender identity unless you have proof the person indeed has the body preference your refer to, as otherwise you risk lying about something very personal about them. So if female to you is the preference to have a female body it would be immoral of you to call someone female before asking and making sure this person indeed prefers a female body, and if this person is indifferent it would be immoral to call that person female, as indifference and preference are different things that ought to be distinguished.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can't speak of a "self" removed from your own body. It doesn't and will never exist.