all 52 comments

[–]SnowAssMan 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You may ask "what is a woman?", but their answer will be to describe femininity (without ever saying 'femininity'). As usual however, their actions speak louder than their words:

Anti-androgens, oestrogen, tucking, 30% getting their testicles removed, facial feminisation surgeries, voice feminisation lessons, "birth sex" (implying it can be changed), Preferred sex, the definition of gender dysphoria: a strong dislike of one's sex &/or strong desire to be the opposite sex, what MtF stands for, "transition" – all this evidence & more clearly communicates that they know what a woman is: an adult human female, not male & not a construct, but based in biology.

They believe that tampering with male anatomy in a biological way in order for it to resemble female anatomy is the transition of sex, from male to female. The reasoning I suppose is "feminised males are women because meh, close enough".

Why on Earth they've chosen to be so vague, idk. Maybe it's to be inclusive of men who only feminise their names, preferred pronouns, hair & dress (only the superficial constructs & none of their biology). The only way to include them is to reduce the definition of 'woman' to 'femininity', which they daren't say aloud.

All (non-circular) definitions are "exclusionary", just as sex is, which is why compensating for sex in speech or action, directly or indirectly is considered bigotry.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agree with you completely.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Obligatory not QT, but trans. So, I’ll start by saying a woman is an adult human female. I feel like this is many trans people think it is too even if don’t want to say so. They feel like it’s a fiction that helps them or other feel better so they will support it even if they don’t really believe it. A transwoman might feel like they are a woman inside or want to be one, but, for the most part, that can really only be about sex stereotypes. I guess a male person could really, really feel like we’re meant to become pregnant and give birth for instance and that could be something that wasn’t a stereotype only female can give birth. I don’t think that is the usually what people refer to when they say they have a gender identity though. If it was, they could feel that way, but they still wouldn’t be a women for feeling that way because it’s not how their body is.

If someone passes as a woman or girl (female), then that is how they are treated in society whether they are actually female or not. I feel like this is what being a male transsexual used to be about it doesn’t really need the definition of woman to change. I guess things like being about to change your birth certificate after surgery helped, and I know GC is against that, it still seemed less demanding. The “trans rights” stuff is for people who don’t pass to make it to where they are included in the category anyway. I don’t think it works though because you aren’t treated like a female if you don’t pass. You may be treated super nice and people may use your pronouns, but that’s a different than actually being seen as a woman. I hope this makes sense.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You make sense, and it’s nice to have some insight into what may be going on behind the scenes for some caught up in QT and their own dysmorphia.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It makes sense in that you have presented the one and only thing I can agree on having in common with transwomen:

If someone passes as a woman or girl (female), then that is how they are treated in society whether they are actually female or not.

Arguments to shared hormones, girlhood, emotions, and most especially PMS offend me, but sure here is something we have in common and can work on. However, it only applies to transwomen who pass, who are still the minority (this might change with the amount of childhood transition but I'm not sure).

Do you think I have anything in common with non-passing transwomen? Just curious.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, I don’t think so. Like, you might have something in common with an individual non-passing transwoman (or a man for that matter), but nothing about them being a transwoman means that you will or that the groups automatically share something.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 3 insightful - 11 fun3 insightful - 10 fun4 insightful - 11 fun -  (2 children)

Anyone who has a female gender identity.

[–]kwallio 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What is a female gender identity? What is a female gender? Can you describe what female and gender mean?

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Please define female. Please define gender identity. Please explain what adult human females without gender identities are.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 10 fun3 insightful - 9 fun4 insightful - 10 fun -  (43 children)

A social construct

By their sex spectrum status

XYZ definition

I mean, they’re not inherently anything.

[–]SnowAssMan 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Then there is no reason to distinguish between autogynaephiles & regular straight males.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 10 fun2 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 10 fun -  (10 children)

Nor is there a reason to distinguish between cis women and trans women. Which is why a sex spectrum model works best for describing sex, just as a species spectrum model is better at describing evolutionary states over time than imagining species as objectively distinct entities

[–]AlexisK 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

For healthcare, sports and safeguarding it is important to distinguish between women and transwomen, as they are there grouped with their birth sex and not prefered sex.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 9 fun -  (3 children)

No it isn’t. Individualized care should be the standard, not assumptions based off of outmoded binary sex models.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

So would you say that there are absolutely no commonalities or general trends in a field like say, midwifery?

They should genuinely consider the idea that some of their patients are male? They should investigate all bodily orifices to see where the baby will come out and not assume the patient is a woman with a cervix that is dilating?

It’s extremely difficult to understand how this line of thinking works.

Also!! Does this mean you think the crime stats that prove males make up the majority of rapists is untrue? Because males don’t exist? Is there any commonality between the people making up the rapist demographic besides being rapists? Like the penises they raped with perhaps?

Seriously, this line of thinking would be so harmful if adopted by lawmakers or the general populace.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Individualized care should be the standard, not assumptions based off of outmoded binary sex models.

Tell that to everyone with male-only medical conditions like hemophilia, SCID, erectile dysfunction and prostate cancer.

Moreover, in medical care, assumptions historically have not been based on "binary sex models." The assumptions have been based on the idea that male humans represent the norm for our species, and that female humans are merely deficient male humans with male parts & hormones missing & "boobs & tubes" added.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Individualized care should be the standard, not assumptions based off of outmoded binary sex models.

Yeah, that's not gonna work.

On one level, the Shinkansen doesn't exist. But Zen monks also know enough not to sit on the tracks in order to prove it.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

At least you didn't pretend that they are not autogynaephiles, or that autogynaephiles don't exist. You're not as obtuse as GenderBender, it seems.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (3 children)

No I don’t believe in autogynephilia as it’s usually described, nor do I believe that what is happening solely affects trans women

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Back-pedal, back-pedal. Such an unlikely paraphilia, right? All the others definitely exist, just not that one lol. Autogynaephilia is in the DSM-5 – the Trans Bible. What about men who admit to being agp? Do they not exist either?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

There’s no back pedaling?

No all the others don’t objectively exist either.

I believe that if they’re calling themselves AGP then they have a misconception about the nature of their sexuality.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So they misunderstand their own identity or sexuality? They literally don’t understand their own thoughts, feelings, and experiences? But you understand it? What would you say if you had the opportunity to correct their understanding of their sexuality?

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

Social construct is your answer to everything.

What’s not inherently different?

What’s your reasoning for any of this?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 9 fun -  (28 children)

Nominalist remember? All categories are social constructs, so yeah it tends to feature heavily in my thought processes

I didn’t say anything was inherently different.

The logical implications of nominalism

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Idk why I ever bother.

For your benefit, you are one of very few people that live according to a 14th century philosophy that’s largely abandoned.

Explain yourself properly or just..dont half-engage and act like nominalism is common knowledge and a normal view of the world.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 9 fun -  (20 children)

Not really. Post structuralist philosophies advance many of the ideas of nominalism, and nominalism itself is still an extant position in philosophy.

I’m sorry, I just can’t bring myself to commit to the effort of educating you all on nominalism when it will achieve nothing. It just seems like wasted effort

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

But I’m rude when I say idk why I bother with you and your nominalism. Jfc dude.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 10 fun1 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 10 fun -  (18 children)

I mean yes? Also way to misgender me when you get frustrated.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 15 insightful - 5 fun15 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 5 fun -  (13 children)

how can he misgender you when women don't exist since it is just a socially constructed category? Your gender doesn't exist, it's just a social construct. Your sense of being misgendered is a social construct you created. I'm not sure you exist. I imagine a series of static electricity discharges ran down a keyboards on a computer somewhere and created this account, created the random set of letters "Heimdekledi" and continues to create these incoherent posts.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Heim is deliberately inconsistent with the nominalism. Things heim doesn’t like are real, but women are just abstract ideas. Dehumanising with a philosophical excuse of ‘but humans don’t real :)’

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think you give the static electricity that created that account too much credit. To leap form a semi-reasonable idea about categories and language, that as used by people reflects potentially unshared assumptions about definitions and unshared assumptions about how the world works along with limits on knowledge, to the idea that some words we use do not point to real and uniquely discernible things in the real word, or to the idea that there is no real word, is just babyish. These people must be spoon fed food and pretend some how that they endure. But this account we speak of takes it further by imposing their own fiction to replace what would be observable. Sex is real. Even plants have two and only two sexes, even self pollinating plants like corn. Let the non-binary people identify as a can of corn.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Dude is gender neutral. I call my sister dude. I’m not using it in a gendered sense. Anyway, misgendering is just a social construct.

Lol I’m rude for expecting more than one word answers but you’re not rude for saying explaining it to us is worthless?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

Dude can be gender neutral, but plenty of people don’t use it in such a way. I’ll keep in mind that you do.

I didn’t give one word answers, I gave a multi sentence answer. It’s not worthless, I just think that there is a 99% chance that it won’t help based on my prior attempts to do so. And Im depressed and barely get on the sub anymore so it just feels like a pointless exercise. Besides you don’t need me to find out about this stuff if you really cared to.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Rude. Take care and I hope you Feel better though. Depression sucks no matter how you feel about gender.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

I mean, kind of rude. I answered your questions honestly.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You answered in the laziest way possible. See the edit.

[–]whoamiwhowhowhowho 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

All categories are social constructs

I'm new here, so pardon if you've answered this before. Does this view affect how you live life in ways unrelated to gender identity? If I understand correctly, you don't just think "man," "woman," "male," and "female" are social constructs; you would also say the same about "human," "barn," "oxygen," etc. How does this cause you to interact with the world differently from someone who is not a nominalist?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (2 children)

I like to think that it helps me avoid drawing generalizations about circumstances and to try to remain humble about the limitations of my human viewpoint. It also influences my religious views as I mostly Identify as a buddhist and agree with the teaching that all things are empty of intrinsic existence and nature.

[–]whoamiwhowhowhowho 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How does it affect your everyday life in specific ways, though? Believing "man" and "woman" are social constructs has a clear impact on what you believe about trans women and trans men, how you spend some of your time (interacting on this forum), and many of your choices about your clothing, medical care, identity, and other aspects of life if you are trans yourself (I got the impression you are but not sure). It leads you to think of these two groups (man and woman) in a vastly different way from the majority of humanity throughout history and to act accordingly. Since it has such a profound impact on your understanding of two words that most people take for granted, what about nominalism leads you to interact with the world differently in other ways? I'm asking because I doubt a philosophy like that would have radical effects in one subject area and not others. I wouldn't say not generalizing, trying to be humble, and being a Buddhist are particularly associated with nominalism, so that's why I'm digging a bit here.

[–]usehername 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Postmodernism is a hell of a drug.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

A social construct

By their sex spectrum status

XYZ definition

I mean, they’re not inherently anything.

That's cool.

We could have some genuine fun with metaphysics. But given that OP's questions are framed within the context of contemporary material categories, is there anything you can say about them wrt material definitions? Like it or not, Woman is among the Ten Thousand Things.