all 68 comments

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

After what happened, it seems to me that any concession I would make in order to be "friendly or civil" with trans people would be used against me. That is definitely what happened with pronouns, names, labels and spaces, and I am frankly tired of working for their sake when everything I would get in return wouldn' t be in any way beneficial or pleasant for ME.

I am never going to "respect what someone wants to be called or referred to as" if it goes against reality or if doing it validates beliefs and feelings I do not share, especially if they bring way more problems than they solve. And given that doing that is what brought us here, there' s no way I am going to fall for that again just to be screwed over again in the future.

I don' t want to be friends again and I don' t want a "better relationship", I want for us to be left alone.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What you say is very fair and understandable. I can't really argue your sentiment. Do you think there is anything that would change your feelings?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It' s very hard to regain someone' s trust after you shredded it to pieces. It' s not impossible, but I cannot imagine a way in which it could be done. Considering the past few years, I would see any change in the trans community as something that is done either to keep us calm for a while so that they can strike the final blow or as something that they are forcing themselves to do in order to save themselves from a backlash. Not because they think it' s right, not because they actually believe it and not because they give a damn about anyone besides themselves.

I am tired of feeling like an idiot for trusting people and then be treated as if they were telling me "I can' t believe you braindead idiot fell for it again!" when they inevitably do it once more. Better safe than sorry.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, that's a lot of broken trust and I understand not trusting. This is going to sound very dumb, but I was watching this documentary that showed how this orca would ride a wave up to the shore with its mouth open to snatch up seals, and I kind of feel like that horrible feeling the seal must feel right before it's eaten is how a lot of people, especially women, must feel and felt in reaction to being chewed up by the current trans rights movement in one or more ways.

You have to protect yourself and be safe, so you need to do whatever it is you need to do that.

[–]ausernamee 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The trust wasn't just broken by the demands, but also by the fact that lying and gaslighting was used as a main way of getting people on their side.

[–]divingrightintowork 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Likely an apology and an understanding that such social norms are not universal and signaling a respect for the different social norms of many women?

[–]kwallio 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

We tried being nice, all it got was more demands and more and more infringement on women's spaces. NO U.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I understand the sentiment and understand if you'd rather not answer, but what do you imagine it would take to reach a world where we're all friends? Or what would it take for you personally?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Truly don’t think it’s possible. There cannot be any friendship with a group that does not treat women as human beings.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's like the worst part, not seeing human beings as human beings, in this case women. I really want to believe you're wrong about the first part, I feel like the better one can envision something the more likely they can coax it into reality.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I know some people from that crowd see us as people but the ideology itself does not. When those individuals choose to support the ideology and ignore women, they’re just as bad.

If there’s any peace to be had it’s gonna have to come from tra changing and not being such a dictatorial misogynistic movement. Gendered thinking cannot exist peacefully with the people gender oppresses.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The ideology is some grotesque, clownish monster that doesn't seem to really care about anyone except to expand rights that mostly benefit males at the expense of females, and to make people play along to others' sexual fantasies. That's certainly reductive, but it's a little hard to see beyond that sort of stuff sometimes. But I think your last line could be helpful a mantra for changing minds that have fallen victim to TRA and this ideology. That sort of encapsulates things.

The morbid irony is that it's dehumanized everyone, really. It encourages ignoring others' suffering, save for language policing, even trans people because no one is going to acknowledge serious issues that would be healthy to address. The ideology may have started from good intentions, but it's turned out to be heartless.

TRA seem drunk on power, so maybe rights eroding to a point that it affects more and more of those people to where they stop and challenge things seems like might be something that could change that.

[–]kwallio 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  • no self id
  • no child transition
  • actual research on the benefits/liabilities of medical transition
  • commitment to free speech
  • and end to trans people lying through their teeth at every opportunity about themselves. Most are doing it for sexual/fetish reasons and are just lying about it. WE CAN SEE YOU.

eta - * end to trans homophobia/conversion rhetoric. We know you fetishize gay ppl, please stay out of gay spaces and stop preying on gays.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Accepting that transgenderism is a personal subjective belief that should not be forced on the rest of society. Preferred pronouns should be voluntary. Respecting people's boundaries and right to consent especially in single sex spaces. Not sending death threats, rape threats, trying to defund rape crisis shelters and so on. The trans movement's entitlement (a lot of it is typical male entitlement under a different guise) is what is causing the animosity.

Ironically a lot of the bad actors in the trans movement are an excellent example of why women need single sex spaces away from male bodied people no matter how they personally identify. A disturbingly high percentage of males are a threat to women. It sucks that men cannot be blindly trusted because of this fact, but I'll be damned if women aren't allowed some measure of safeguarding from male violence and male sexual harassment.

Nowhere is safe for women. Not even our own homes. Let me repeat nowhere. The only time a woman can completely let her guard down is when no males are present. Now trans activists are trying to destroy single ex public bathrooms, changing rooms and rape crisis centers. Of course we're pissed off! Many of us have been sexually harassed, stalked, threatened or attacked on public transportation, minding our business walking down the street, at our jobs, at the gym, at the grocery store, the list is endless. What do you think the me too movement was all about? Now I'm supposed to let male bodied people who make my life a living hell into the locker room? Fuck no!

I am so done with being harassed & threatened no matter how conservatively I dress, no matter how careful I am. There is no escaping from it and the trans movement is pulling the ultimate dick move taking what little spaces women have that are set aside to specifically allow women to be free from that bullshit when they're vulnerable!

The double standard where women are expected to be nice doormats while men who claim to be women do whatever they want regardless of the very real sometimes deadly consequences for women is maddening. I'm a goddamn human being and I should be able to change in peace without being leered at, cornered, flashed, groped, inappropriate comments made about my body and if I'm really unlucky attacked by some unhinged misogynist who refuses to take no for an answer. The only way to give women that space is to ban all male bodied people. The alleged good men more often than not do nothing even when a women is being sexually assaulted on a crowded train station right in front of them! I don't trust any man anywhere near me when I'm vulnerable. If a movement takes my right to change in peace free from sexual harassment away, yeah I'm going to be angry and I'm not going to mince my words.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thank you for your thoughtful response! I really can't fault you or any woman who is angry about female rights being attacked.

A lot of women feel similarly to you and share the same demands in order for there to be any sort of peace, I think you said a lot of or most of what other women (especially GC radfems) feel about this.

It's evident that what's happened with TRA and trans rights and gender ideology is reflective of men not seeing women as people, as equal human beings. Femininity is so despised and looked down on because it's associated with women and women are treated as inferior to men. It's weird seeing it coveted (albeit distorted) by males. If their sexuality didn't get in the way, I'd think it was a good thing that would lead to better relations between men and women...maybe that's what everyone hoped for before realizing it's a fetish for a lot of trans people. And fetishes just don't seem conducive to humanizing anyone.

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Reply to Fleurista Part 1:

It's evident that what's happened with TRA and trans rights and gender ideology is reflective of men not seeing women as people, as equal human beings. Femininity is so despised and looked down on because it's associated with women and women are treated as inferior to men. It's weird seeing it coveted (albeit distorted) by males.

I just want to clarify that women are not despised because of our "femininity." Many women are not at all "feminine" - yet we're still despised. No girl or woman no matter where we fall on the "femininity" scale escapes being reviled & despised.

Women are despised by men - and by some women - because we are female. And being female is very different to being "feminine," particularly the way "feminine" is defined today.

Women are despised by both sexes because we are the ones who have the capacity to get pregnant & bring new human beings into the world. This is a capacity that a great many boys & men envy, resent & covet. And which some girls & women are terrified or disgusted by, & see as a negative rather than a positive.

The fact that making babies is a "superpower" exclusive to female humans causes many boys & men to feel small, insignificant, insecure, secondary, sidelined, inadequate, unimportant & not the center of attention or the universe. Boys & men don't like having these feelings; they cause boys & men great discomfort, anxiety, shame, sometimes even fear or terror. Having all these distressing, discomfiting feelings that they can't admit to having or handle in healthy ways causes many boys & men to feel very angry - & they turn their anger on girls & women.

Another reason people of both sexes despise, resent & have all sorts of animus towards women is coz every one of us was brought into being by a woman - & almost certainly was raised & taught primarily by women early in life. Babies' & children's need for, & total dependency on, their mothers & other female caregivers, but mostly their mothers, often makes children of both sexes feel small, insignificant & very scared. Also, most mothers are imperfect - & many fail to meet all their children's needs due to inattention, overwork, addiction, emotional problems - & the fact that kids' needs can often be voracious. Some mothers are cold, controlling, rejecting or abusive. This affects children of either sex negatively. But boys' feelings towards their mothers often have extra dimensions that complicate matters further.

Yet another reason girls and women are despised by boys & men in particular is that most human males desire human females sexually - and once puberty hits, male sexual desire is an ever-present, overwhelming force in the everyday lives of most males. It's only by obtaining access to female bodies that most boys & men can experience the most exquisite pleasure known to our species - a pleasure that males in particular seem hard-wired to want all the time.

The fact that boys & men desire, long for & need girls & women in this way makes a lot of boys & men feel dependent, disadvantaged, weak, needy, pathetic. They perceive girls & women as having enormous power over them, & themselves as always having to ask, beg, grovel, placate, please or pay us in order to get a chance to have sex with us. Add all that to all the deep-seated "mother issues" most of us grow up with, many boys & men end up resenting & really hating female people as a result.

But it's not just het & bi men who envy, resent & hate women. A lot of homosexual boys & men do too. Many of them dehumanize us, sexually objectify us, denigrate us, seek to dominate us & wish pain & injury on us just as much as much as many boys & men who need & desire females for sex & romance do. Many also sexually fetishize us, covet our female bodies, & wish they could take our place & put us in our place. This, I am sorry to say, is true not just of many gay men who do drag, but in my observation it's also true of a great many of the homosexual males who today call themselves trans & historically were known as transvestites.

To wit: a misogynistic young "transwoman" tells men why dating "transwomen" is preferable to dating "ciswomen," slagging off us "regular bishes" quite a bit in the process: https://youtu.be/xGG3G12aJJk

The same person explains why "transwomen" deserve to get all the cosmetic surgeries they want for free whilst "cis women" don't; whilst admitting that "natural born women" do have body dysmorphia, body image issues & depression & anxiety as a result, this person says the discomfort & problems of "cis women" aren't as deeply felt, serious, important or "urgent" as those of "trans women": https://youtu.be/XJh3p8TvxXE

Another video from the same person "why I love my penis": https://youtu.be/CInJMZ7HHhc

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Reply to Fleurista Part 2:

Femininity is so despised and looked down on because it's associated with women and women are treated as inferior to men. It's weird seeing it coveted (albeit distorted) by males

Femininity as the term is used today is mainly something males created. Femininity is a projection of male fantasies that grew out of distinctly male sexuality & male psychic needs which men came up with to serve their own male interests. Males who covet femininity by claiming to be "trans" & attempting to turn themselves into insulting caricatures of women by embracing & performing the most regressive, misogynistic sex stereotypes are not distorting femininity, they are showing the world that femininity at its core is a male invention, male preoccupation & male fetish. Men came up with femininity & forced it on girls & women as a means of obtaining male dominance & supremacy over females, and to provide themselves with male sexual pleasure. Now they've claimed "femininity," femaleness & womanhood for themselves in order to stick it to girls & women in diabolical new ways.

When you say that "femininity is despised and looked down on," I wonder exactly what you mean by "femininity" - which should come as no surprise given our past convos on this topic. It seems to me what a lot of male people consider "feminine" today is just a bunch of superficial stuff - such as pink, glitter, makeup, skirts go spinny, long hair, acrylic fake fingernails & nail lacquer, acting "girly," hair bows, kitten ears, head tilting, hair flicking, thigh highs, showing off the silicone orbs they've had implanted into their chest - as well as indulging in, & displaying, a lot of narcissist, histrionic, "catty," "bitchy," "slutty," "bimbo babe" behaviors. In my view, what is often labelled "femininity" in males is actually more specific characteristics that would be better described by such terms as sensitivity, timidity, fussiness, flamboyance, theatricality, vanity, gentility, delicacy, moodiness & otherworldiness.

Or, in some cases, "femininity" means being interested in romance, sewing, baking & doing things like sighing upon waking (sorry, Fleurista, luv, I couldn't resist) - none of which, as we've discussed in past exchanges, historically were or today are activities associated solely or even predominantly with the female sex.

But however "femininity" is defined today, I find that when males speak of "femininity" in themselves or other males, most of the attributes they mean have nothing to do with of the dominant traits historically associated with being female - such as being self-effacing & self-sacrificing, taking care of others, suffering in silence, always putting other people first, doing all the mundane domestic chores & admin work in families, wiping asses & noses, quieting crying babies, soothing worried brows & ruffled feathers, making sure everyone is fed, not drawing attention to yourself, swallowing your anger, making sure you don't come off as "demanding" or "conceited," accepting that a certain amount of discrimination & sexual harassment & a whole lot of unfairness is simply your lot in life as a female, always taking care to "be kind"... and so on. Trans-identified males who want to express their "femininity" often express eagerness to do Only Fans or other kinds of "sex work" coz that "validates" their gender identity & their desire to be seen as sexually desirable by men. But they rarely seem interested in going into traditionally female lines of work that don't involve sex or being sexy by becoming nurses, home health aides, secretaries, elementary & MS teachers, housekeepers & so on.

Moreover, when male people talk about the "femininity" that they & other males supposedly possess & often seem very much preoccupied with, it seems that what they are defining as "feminine" is often simply any human trait or interest that falls short of, or outside, the narrow range of traits associated with the most macho males. In other words, "femininity" frequently is code for traits & things considered not "boyish or "manly" rather traits & things that actually are "girly" or "womanly."

But however you define "femininity," Fleurista, I have a hunch that when you say "femininity is despised and looked down on" what you really mean is that in your experience "femininity in males is despised and looked down on." If that's a mistaken impression, I apologize for leaping to that conclusion. I do not mean to cause offense.

As someone who is not male & has not based my life around trying to conform to the sex stereotypes that constitute either "femininity" or "masculinity," my experience growing up & in adulthood has been very different to yours. Still, if I may be so bold, I don't think that the reason "femininity" or "unmanliness" in males is despised & looked down on is as simple as "because it's associated with women & women are treated as inferior" as you say. I think "unmanliness" been historically despised & looked down on in males because it's historically been associated with male homosexuality - & there's a whole lot of homophobia in the world.

I don't believe that in most people's minds, boys & men who aren't manly men/boys are or ever have been genuinely regarded as being just like or much girls & women. I think unmanly boys & men traditionally have been seen in most cultures as defective or degenerate males. They are regarded as representing aspects of the male self that most males want to suppress in themselves & are uncomfortable seeing in other males. A lot of women, particularly homophobic mothers, want to keep those aspects of the male self suppressed too - which traditionally has not worked out well for their sons who aren't "manly."

But all this is beside the point today, because generally speaking in countries like the USA, Canada, UK, Ireland, Spain & France nowadays, males who are drawn to & choose to perform "femininity" are no longer "despised and looked down upon" as they once were. In a very short space of time, males who display "femininity" in the most superficial, sexed-up, flamboyant ways have gone from being outcasts to being the new sacred caste.

Whether they are cross-dressing heterosexual males with AGP like Charlotte Clymer, Grace Lavery, Caitlyn Jenner, Jennifer Pritzker & Andrea Long Chu or homosexual males who grew up with a lot of internalized homophobia like CeCe Telfer, Blaire White, Andraya Yearwood & Terry Miller, males today who claim to be the opposite sex - & who change their appearance & superficial mannerisms so that they become insulting caricatures of women & embody the most regressive, misogynistic sex stereotypes - are the single most lionized group in our culture. They are the new overlords. Male "femininity" is now the new, most socially acceptable way for males to assert & display male dominance & superiority over female people whilst at the same time expressing contempt for us.

Sorry to be so harsh & forthright. But that's the conclusion I've come to. BTW, women didn't go out seeking all the animus that's been created by the trans movement. I wish none of it were happening. But it is. And to me, the trans movement is a reflection of a porn-soaked male dominant culture which has become more blatantly misogynistic than at any period in my life. When I was a little girl in the late 1950s & 60s, girls & women were barred from a lot of activities & spheres, & there were no school sports for us - but at least we were still allowed to have our own toilets & change rooms. Moreover, society was still decorous enough, & boys & men well-bred enough, that most boys & men didn't feel entitled to openly display their sexual fetishes & misogyny in such blatant, grotesque ways like so many do today. Most had a modicum of manners & some sense of restraint; & everyone agreed that some behaviors were shameful when done anywhere, & others were inappropriate in public. Whereas today, it seems all the tacit understandings that constituted the longstanding social contract have been tossed out the window - & vast swathes of men have declared a full-scale war on women, & in that war claiming to be women themselves is one of men's most clever & effective new tactics.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Mark! Thank you for being so patient, and thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences, too. I wanted to take time to ponder and try to better see things from your perspective.

You’re right, I was talking about femininity in general being hated or looked down on, just because it’s associated with women, so to me it seems like an extension of misogyny (though it sounds like I might be mistaken). And yes, by ‘femininity’ I’m talking about it here as anything that might be associated with women--but it probably is indeed more accurate to say that it’s anything not ‘masculine’ that’s abhorred, though that wasn’t my original intent.

Or, in some cases, "femininity" means being interested in romance, sewing, baking & doing things like sighing upon waking (sorry, Fleurista, luv, I couldn't resist)

Well played, Mark 😹👏 I do know better now that really femininity is more akin to whispered dandelion wishes. (en garde!😊)

You and Sloane make good points that reveal my thinking to be rather myopic regarding this (and a lot more, honestly), so thank you very much for that. There really are a lot of reasons men (or both sexes, as you said) hate and mistreat women, and I’ve seen a lot of what you are talking about. At least a lot of people in the comments in those videos called that YouTuber out. To each their own, and it’s admirable that a person could be confident and happy with their body, but in this context I don't really know what that's like.

I understand that women’s rights are for women, not males or transwomen, even if there might be something resembling overlap for some things. I really wasn’t aware that I or others like me might be ‘drafting’, and I’m still kind of trying to fully understand what you mean. Is advocating and fighting for women’s rights helpful if we aren’t trying to claim those rights for ourselves, or include ourselves in them? Are we more helpful allies if we just stay away?

Some might say it’s prudish or close-minded of me, but to me it’s rather shocking to me to see the open displays of peoples’ kinks and, as PhilosopherTentacles put it elsewhere, sociopathic behavior. I can’t imagine having lived in the 50s, 60s, 70s or even 80s and seeing the world as it is today in the midst of the identity and gender and kink obsession. Especially after reading that article about bringing children to Pride festivals to expose them to sex and sexuality and kink, this seems like the sort of deviant and predatory world that many (oftentimes) conservative people feared it would become.

When you asked about healthcare discrimination, Robert Eads came to mind, although Eads died way back in 1999 for being refused non-transition related medical treatment (for ovarian cancer in Eads’ case). Tyra Hunter is another person who died from a car crash because EMTs would not treat them, though this is even farther back in 1995. More recently is the death of Shaun Smith who died of diabetic ketoacidosis, though it isn’t entirely clear if EMTs didn’t intervene because Smith was trans and there aren't a ton of articles about this case. Another more recent case I just saw is of someone being refused a hysterectomy for being trans, but then I read that most doctors won’t perform hysterectomies on younger women unless it is absolutely necessary (I lost the article/name, will link when found). There was one more story of someone who wasn't told they had cancer allegedly because the doctor was shocked to discover the patient was trans, but I'll add more details and a link when I find it again. Based on what I'm finding, it seems legal discrimination (meaning discrimination that is legal at the time) was much more common in the past than now (which is maybe true of all kinds of legal discrimination), and it seems like there are a lot of legal protections for trans people (specifically regarding healthcare in this instance) that protect against health professionals refusing to provide treatment to trans people that isn't related to trans-specific issues. Having said all of that, illegal discrimination (discrimination that is not legal) may be pervasive, but I don't believe we're talking about that here.

Would terms like 'erroneous misogyny', 'faux misogyny' or 'mistaken misogyny' be more appropriate when referring to what some trans males/transwomen experience? Since the intent and actions might be the same, would using the word 'misogyny' with a specifier in that context be appropriate? I'm genuinely unsure what to call things that I can only interpret as misogynistic, even if they may be directed at someone with a male body by mistake--I'm unsure of how one might correct that without 'outing' themselves. All that said, I do love the English language, so coming up with another term for what happens to some males is actually kind of a fun idea to me!

Again, I really do appreciate your candor! 🙂

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Men behaving themselves and not speaking over us and belittling us over the experiences we have and they claim to share.

Transwomen leaving women and women’s spaces alone and instead fighting for their own spaces.

An end to gendering every one and every thing according to the pink and blue paradigm.

An internal push from tra to stop the rampant homophobia and attempts at conversion therapy through saying a sexuality is a genital preference.

Leaving children alone.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Maybe only some of us can and some of us just can't. It will be interesting to see what things look like in the rubble--people will move on from this fad as they do any other, but it's too bad this fad has had such far-reaching, grave consequences.

It would make sense that just being seen as human is probably the most important thing for having real human friendship, like you brought up in another comment. Maybe that should almost be the focus. What do you think?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think it’s a start, but ultimately while individuals can get along, the tra movement cannot coexist with women. It’s too fundamentally hateful of women to allow us humanity or the right to safety. Nobody can be friends with the people who oppress them and that is exactly what the men who most forcefully endorse genderism and tra ideas are.

When it’s no longer trendy there may be a chance for peace between women and transsexuals. From what I’ve seen transsexual individuals are typically uninterested in the modern gender discourse and simply wish to be left be.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, it really is impossible. The impossibility itself seems maybe to be what we've been living through and what's unfolding, it's at least hopefully shedding light on a much grander, longstanding problem of women not being seen or treated as equals by men. The dehumanization of women is hopefully becoming more and more apparent, it seems to be.

I'd like to think we're all slowly divvying up into our little 'groups' and trying to figure out what's going on and who is who and who everyone can trust. I guess maybe we're currently in the act of finding or befriending each other again?

I would probably still be blissfully ignorant about all this if not for quarantine cabin fever mixed with isolation mixed with the internet. Seeing all of the AGP and fetish/sexual stuff brings back really awful memories, it's really depressing and honestly terrifying seeing some of that stuff or interacting with those sorts of transwomen. At least for transsexuals with similar experiences, I don't think most of us have any desire to revisit any of that. Although I would think women aren't any more thrilled by the idea either. But at least we can suffer through it together🌈

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

“It makes me really sad to see so much fighting.”

Considering that one side is fighting to maintain our rights and the other is fighting to take our rights from us- I kind of wish women would fight harder

“What would it take for everyone to go back to a point where we were amiable again, or at least civil or peaceful with each other?”

For me all it takes is literally leaving people alone. Stop forcing trans people and their ideologies and demands on everyone else, stop trampling on my rights.

“Things seemed fine to a point, so what would it take to go back to the mood of those times?”

Go back to the laws/structure of that time lol. I honestly don’t know for sure what laws were in place and I’m sure some were problematic but my point is the issue is how far tras are reaching- pull back your reach. What was working before? Go back to that.

“Some things seem obvious to me accounting for all sides, like undoing self-ID policies and rules that infringe on women’s and children’s rights, and generally just respecting what someone wants to be called or referred to as.”

Why do I have to respect what you want to be called when it’s not fact based, but you don’t have to respect that it offends me to be expected to use language that I know is false and supports an ideology that disrespects me and or a homophobic and misogynistic community that actively jeopardizes my rights and safety?

“What does everyone feel most strongly would bring about better relationships reminiscent of a warmer past?”

I don’t think we need a warm relationship at all. It would be nice, sure, but I think this is actually a part of the issue. Just because transwomen may want acceptance/friendship/“warmth” from us doesn’t mean we have it to give or that anything less than that is a sad state of affairs. Women and TW don’t really have anything in common, we don’t have anything uniting us other than being human, so the goal should really be just tolerance, coexistence (like on earth- not in female spaces) maybe we could hope for mutual respect (basic human decency and politeness- not respecting pronouns etc). But the key to things getting better is honestly tras backing off of everyone else, whether it’s about pronouns, bathrooms, dating etc.

To me it seems like tras/some trans people have this tendency to simultaneously blame us and accuse us of being the root of all of their struggles while being desperate for acceptance and validation. The problem is, why would I want to be warm and fuzzy with you when you just called me a bigot, your friend just said I deserved to be harmed or even killed for “wrongthink”, and you’re trying to dictate my speech and who I am supposed to be open to date? (I know “not all trans people” but that’s the main narrative now)

The (currently most prominent faction of the) trans community vilifies/makes enemies of the very people they want to accept and validate them then act surprised when we aren’t besties lol

To be clear I’m answering in general, none of this is directed at you and I don’t know that I think most of my response even applies to you

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Do you think most women are leaning towards more QT thinking currently? It seems like more women are being peaked, I've only seen maybe two or three women say they were GC before changing their opinions and thoughts to be more in line with QT. It just seems like more and more women are waking up, but maybe that's not really true.

Just leaving people alone seems like the most common sense/golden rule for anyone to follow, basically ever. The irony of asking everyone to leave trans people alone but then condone and encourage people to bother or harass everyone else is darkly funny, or would be if it wasn't real.

It seemed like the laws before were just more discreet. Everything and everyone was more discreet! I believe transsexuals just fit their lives around society's rules, mores and expectations--doctors encouraged transsexuals to not reveal their history and to keep a low profile. Basic protections in areas like employment, healthcare and housing seem like fair developments. Even if we're not female, we do experience some of the same misogyny and discrimination that women do in life, and women's rights affect a lot of trans people more than trans rights do. I don't know . Even in private we still have some of the same relationship dynamics and issues with male intimate partners that straight and bi women deal with. It's not the same thing, but it's close enough that we share similar concerns and stand to gain or lose somewhat similarly regarding women's rights. It's maybe easier to stay in the trans-focused bubble because it's easy getting whatever you want all the time, whereas I can't imagine the prospect of facing discrimination and shitty treatment forever as a woman is very attractive in comparison.

The language thing bugs me because I hate it and think it's dumb, but I also don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, so I'm a little torn. It's actually really hard to not make a joke about it right now because that's just how silly and asinine I think it is. If someone told me their name was Jennyanydots and they wanted to be addressed as 'purrself', I might have to try really hard not to smile or laugh, because I'd still feel bad if I didn't at least extend the courtesy of acknowledging how they wished to be addressed. It really is dumb and silly, and I totally get not wanting to entertain another person's fantasy, so I can't really blame you or anyone for drawing a line there.

we don’t have anything uniting us other than being human, so the goal should really be just tolerance, coexistence (like on earth- not in female spaces) maybe we could hope for mutual respect (basic human decency and politeness- not respecting pronouns etc).

I guess that's a kind of friendship I would say, that's more how I would like to see things. It would be nice, but obviously aren't going to hold hands and sing 'Kumbaya' over s'mores (though that would be really fun). It probably is more important to focus on reaching mutual respect more than anything, and it's probably more attainable than most other things. That's something I often see in the sub here: mutual respect, even if it isn't 'friendly'. That probably is a better thing to strive for, at least for now.

Thank you for your thoughts on this though, I appreciate your frankness. I just like seeing people being friendly and nice to each other, and I always want to make friends, so I'm just hopeful that maybe one day this will end and we all could at the very least have a respectful relationship. I sort of wonder if the big trans 'umbrella' will fracture and it will be more clear to everyone that 'transgender' is made up of diverse people and groups, because I'm hopeful there's at least groups and people who would want those relationships. It's just my annoying optimism getting the better of me 😂

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Basic protections in areas like employment, healthcare and housing seem like fair developments.

I think everyone on the "GC" feminist side would agree. Most Republicans I know would agree too.

But unfortunately the trans lobby defines "basic protections in health care" as hormones & surgeries on demand, no "gatekeeping" or professional discretion on the part of physicians, & the automatic medical transing of children.

If there are cases where trans people have been denied health care for other kinds of issues, please provide receipts.

In the case of housing, many young trans activists today take the position that trans people seeking to rent, obtain a mortgage or join a housing coop or association shouldn't have to go through the standard credit checks & or provide references like everyone else has to do because it could reveal their "dead names" & trans status & might result in them being misgendered.

In the case of employment, many trans activists seem to think this means special rules must be put in place to allow trans-identified people to dictate to their colleagues what language they can use to refer to them in their presence as well as in their absence, to wear whatever they want to work, even if it's sexualized attire considered inappropriate in others, & to behave however they want coz of "inclusion" & "tolerance."

Yesterday, I watched a video in which a trans-identified male who looked to be age 25 or so was bragging of telling the person's supervisor at work that s/he was taking the rest of the day off coz of menstrual cramps. The person gloated over this, remarking with a smirk that since the company was aware of the employee's trans status, "they can't say anything, they can't stop me."

This is an abuse & mockery of the women's rights that women of previous generations including my generation fought for.

This offensive appropriation of female people's medical issues by a trans-identified male seems even more offensive & weird in light of the fact that actual girls & women don't customarily get time off work or school coz of menstrual cramps.

Even if we're not female, we do experience some of the same misogyny and discrimination that women do in life, and women's rights affect a lot of trans people more than trans rights do. I don't know . Even in private we still have some of the same relationship dynamics and issues with male intimate partners that straight and bi women deal with. It's not the same thing, but it's close enough that we share similar concerns and stand to gain or lose somewhat similarly regarding women's rights.

This really isn't true. The discrimination women have faced historically is because of our female sex, not coz of how we dress or our "femininity."

I don't doubt that you & other male persons like you have suffered antipathy & discrimination. I recall full well how many gay males were treated in the 60s, 70s, 80s & 90s. I knew - & helped care for - many men who died of AIDS. But the kind of animus that males who are different to other males in their presentation face is not misogyny.

Please do us all a favor & come up with your own novel terms for the unique kinds of animus & discrimination you face. Women are sick to the back teeth of male trans-identified people appropriating the terms we devised for what people of our sex experience. We are fed up with invasive male interlopers horning in & claiming that the definition of terms like "misogyny," "women," & "female" must be expanded to apply to some males.

Fight for your own rights, which are not women's rights. I know you mean well, but what you & other trans-identified males are doing is the political equivalent of coat-tailing or "drafting" on the highways - drafting meaning what a car does when it rides close behind a big rig truck in order to be pulled along so as to save fuel/energy/effort.

In the US, males were never denied the vote & various other rights - such as the right to attend school, sign a contract, apply for a patent, keep their own wages, participate in sports, get a credit card or bank loan, enter various professions & so on - because of their sex. When males have been denied rights in the US, it has been because of such factors as their race/ethnicity, economic status, political views, criminal convictions, sexual orientation - but not their sex. Women & girls have been denied a whole slew of rights because of our sex.

I have never heard of a boy or man who was kicked out of school or fired from his job because he impregnated someone. But I know of plenty of women who were kicked out of school or fired from their jobs because they got pregnant.

So many of the rights women have worked for have been about our female bodies. Contraception, abortion rights, maternity leave, the right to breastfeed in public, the right to have Pap smears & mammograms covered by health insurance plans, workplace accommodations for pregnant women & for breastfeeding women who need to pump & store milk whilst at work as well as for women going through menopause.

The International Olympics Committee has put in place a policy that's allowed a 43-year-old male with a dick & balls who once competed in male weightlifting but wasn't very good to compete in women's weightlifting in the upcoming Tokyo Games. All without even necessarily reducing his T - the IOC level allowed for "transwomen" is in the normal male range, & someone of Hubbard's age, weight, girth & level of adiposity might well have that level of T naturally. But at the same time, the Tokyo Olympics will not allow a Canadian female athlete who is breastfeeding her baby to bring the baby to Tokyo with her so she can continue to breastfeed. Tell me, how are these situations in any way similar or equivalent?

Even in private we still have some of the same relationship dynamics and issues with male intimate partners that straight and bi women deal with.

The psychological dynamics might be similar, but the physical realities are not. A male being abused by another male still has a much better chance of fighting back or running away than a female person being abused by a male does. Even males with slight builds still have such advantages as male musculature, male speed, male response time, male explosiveness male grip strength, male hand size & span, male throat circumference & cartilage, male bone density, male upper body strength, male reflexes & male punching power - which is nearly 300% times that of female people.

When my younger brother, sons & nephews were skinny boys of 14 they easily could have choked me & any other adult woman to unconsciousness or death with their bare hands - with one bare hand, in fact.

When men rape or coerce girls & women into sex, pregnancy can result. The terror of being impregnated against your will - & of worrying afterwards that you've become pregnant - is something no trans-identified males will ever experience. You won't know what it's like to take a pregnancy test, have an abortion or carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

Men who commit DV & have female partners very often start beating & otherwise abusing their female partners when the girls or women become visibly pregnant. That's not something that will ever affect a trans-identified male.

When I was 19, a male of my same age slugged me in the face with his fist - sending me flying across the room where I crashed into a wall then to the floor. With that one punch, he shattered by right eye orbit (socket), broke the bridge of my nose & caused a concussion. If he had hit a male person of the same age, it's unlikely he would have done anywhere near the same amount of damage because male skull & facial bones (& all bones) are stronger & thicker, male total body mass & solidity (thus inertia) are far greater, & males are not as vulnerable to concussion & TBI as females are.

Since then, I have suffered chronic trigeminal neuralgia around the eye whose socket/orbit was broken by a male fist, & I've had three orbital tumors that are believed to have come from nerve damage that one punch caused many decades ago. The three tumors I've had needed to be removed in three separate surgeries requiring the skills of a top neuro-opthamologist & a plastic surgeon who specializes in repairing damaged or failing muscles & tissue around the eyes. Every year, I have to go back to these guys & be examined & scanned to make sure no new tumor is growing.

I am not bringing up this experience of mine to "play the victim" or "weaponize my trauma." I am just trying to demonstrate that males who identify as trans or as women do not have any idea of what girls & women go through due to having very different physiology to yours.

The antipathy you & other trans-identified males have experienced & might still experience is wrong & unfortunate. But it's not misogyny.

The discrimination you face is not the same as the discrimination that people of the female sex face.

The vulnerability to male violence you face is not the same vulnerability that female people face.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think I touched on some of the points you brought up here in my first response to you, I'm sorry for the disorganization. It really has been the longest year

I’m so sorry for what has happened to you, that’s horrible. I especially wanted to think about what you addressed with your history regarding your biology in relation to assault and injury, because I’m not honestly sure that’s something I have really considered in differences between the sexes. That it may be even more devastating to you or any female than me really isn’t something I’ve thought about, I think because obviously I think of myself as being the same as females, despite knowing that isn’t true. It’s a little hard to think about that, but looking at it I think I can see from your perspective maybe a little better, and what you say makes lots of sense. Even if most males are bigger and stronger than me, that doesn’t make my physical vulnerability equivalent to yours or any other woman’s. We may both be physically vulnerable, but it’s in our own ways and not the same. Maybe I'm just repeating exactly what you said (which I think I am) but I think I had to write my understanding out in order to process that, I'm sorry for the redundancy and what maybe looks like me mocking what you said by repeating it back to you, that really is not my intent at all.

Thank you for sharing your own personal experiences. They're awful, and I really am sorry for all that you've been through and continue to deal with, but you sharing them really does help me to step outside of my own perspective.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gonna do numbers so it’s easier lol

  1. I think a lot of people, men and women, are peaking at the moment (hey! That was an accident lol). I’m hearing more people express GC views than ever. Even irl, I over heard two women discussing the spa thing yesterday (to be fair I live in Cali)

  2. I agree and that particular irony is something I think about all the time. It’s funny to me (at least it used to be) how much tras lack self awareness.

  3. I agree everything and everyone used to be discreet and honestly I miss it. Everyone is over saturated and over sharing imo

I obviously do disagree with doctors about not disclosing lol

Question: are you saying the rights in place for women affect trans people more than the rights in place for the trans community? How so, if that’s what you mean?

I don’t think women’s rights should be altered or compromised for trans people at all, I don’t think the rights granted to any specific marginalized group should be undermined or compromise for another. And that’s what trans rights does to female rights.

Wondering if you can elaborate on the stuff you said about sharing similar concerns and relationship dynamics

*4. See you’re a much nicer person than I am because i would tell jenny I don’t play gender games and even if I did I draw the line after they/them because the rest are just people trying to see what ridiculousness they can come up with and make us go along with (Idk if I’d say all of that but I’d def make it clear that I’m not gonna respect those “pronouns”)

*5. think Kumbaya on a personal/individual scale is absolutely possible. I’d totally have a bonfire and s’mores (and wine in a few months lol) with you and have no problem doing so with trans people I know irl unless I just don’t like them as a person lol

What I meant more is that generally speaking- or maybe it’s to say societally speaking, I think the trans community tends to push for absolute validation and acceptance at all costs -and I totally get not wanting to be a societal outlier or not wanting to be reminded of a truth you wish you could forget- but that’s just not realistic and is actually having the side effect of making the rest of us feel burdened and possibly smothered. Not a recipe for friendship or community.

*6. I honestly waiver about whether things will improve or get worse, but I think people like you and peaking will be okay no matter what (When I say “be okay” I’m talking about with regards to friendships and relationships with others in general, also when I say “people like you” I literally just mean calm, level headed, reasonable and able to listen and engage, nothing to do with being trans, just want to be clear as possible)

The trans umbrella now basically holds the whole world population in some way due to all of the different genders/identities it’s comprised of. So it’s kind of meaningless and I think people are starting to see that, or rather that we always saw it but now feel more comfortable calling it out. Honestly it was one of the first cracks in the narrative for me. When I saw them saying that wanting to get to know someone before sleeping with them was its own sexuality I knew something was off, and when we got to the point where people started putting “xe/xey afab nb andre 3000 furry pan demi hetero romantic bisexual lesbian 2.0” in their social media bios I knew we’d descended into madness

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Good call with numbers! Was trying to do the same and got confused so I gave up, sorry!! 😅

I should have specified a bit better: I think some of the rights in place for women affect some trans people more than rights in place for trans people. Some rights, like reproductive rights, will be irrelevant to biologically male bodies, but like laws regarding sex-based discrimination in places like employment affect some transwomen more than anything about gender identity might, because they're perceived as women who aren't trans.

Maybe more generally put, just how women are treated by others sometimes affects TW and especially extends into areas of discrimination or harassment or assault. Maybe for some women that elicits resentment since it would seem like TW can just stop and present as men at their convenience (and some can and do), but I don't think it's that simple for everyone. I suppose it is a choice, though, so if some women feel that transwomen aren't really experiencing discrimination because they're believed to actually be female, I can't argue the point that it is a choice beyond that gender dysphoria can make it seem like it isn't (not that that means you need to or should entertain someone's GD or identity, but I guess I'm trying to emphasize how severe it might be).

Regarding similar relationship dynamics, I suppose I'm talking about something I could never really know since I'll never be a female in a relationship with a man, but based on talking to straight and bi women it seems like we get dismissed, ignored, disregarded and left with their BS often in a very similar way--we worry about violence and assault in very similar ways (though significantly different, which I'll address more in response to Mark's comments). Of course, not worrying about pregnancy and its implications is quite a significant difference and I'm sure really affects the relationship dynamics and treatment between female and male partners in a way that it wouldn't affect same sex couples, especially between males. Maybe the similarities aren't as meaningful or pervasive as I think they are.

Based on what you and others here have shared, and from what I've seen overall so far, it really does seem like any peace will probably resolve at individual levels. The extreme ends of things sort of makes clear that some individuals in those camps don't see any way to resolution or better relationships, so it seems like only those of us who are more willing to scrutinize our own views rather than remain die-hard or inflexible either way. It's too bad the whole world being trans in some way didn't have better effects, but maybe there will be silver linings--like at least maybe because of all the frustration we all really do start treating individuals as just that rather than representative of an entire belief system. Hopefully most of us will be OK if we can just start on an individual level.

But 'andre 3000' caught me so off guard🤣 the best gender!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I get what you’re saying, and I agree to an extent. I think that women and (specifically passing) TW can experience similar social/relationship dynamics, but I also think that there are a lot of things that we associate with heterosexual (or also in this context a relationship that’s technically homosexual but presents as hetero) relationships that can and do apply to homosexual (or hetero presenting as homo) relationships. So yeah a TW in a relationship with a man may worry about the same things a woman in a relationship with a man may worry about, but I know gay men who have been abused and mistreated by their partners, and have heard of instances of abusives lesbian relationships as well (just using abuse as an example). All I mean to say is I think some things may be more typically associated with heterosexual relationships, but they aren’t exclusive to them, so to me this is more of an argument for trans people not being much different from people who aren’t trans when it comes to things that occur in our day to day lives, not so much that this connects specifically women and tw

I do agree that some laws in place for women can be helpful to trans people, and as long as it’s the laws that just protect them and don’t take from women then I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Meaning for example, if a law in place for women that keeps me protected at work also helps a TW not lose their job- that’s fantastic. But if there’s a law in place that allows a male person to take a job designated for a female if that male says he’s trans- that’s bullshit to me, if that makes sense.

And Andre 3000 would be the best gender, he’s awesome lol

[–]ausernamee 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In real life, none of the women I know supports trans ideology and none of them hate trans people. The typical perspective is that because we are sad about their suffering from dysphoria, we'll try to make them feel better by treating them as women. To trans people that's hate. Which, upon finding out that going out of your way to treat a dysphoric male in a way that will alleviate their dysphoria is engaging in bigotry because we are commuting thought crimes by recognizing them as male, can cause people who had previously, to their understanding, been supportive, to second guess what they're supporting.

Cis women want trans women to be safe and to have jobs and to have housing. Instead of accepting support for your right, it turns into bullying cis women who are allied in your human rights into thinking rightthink. You would percieve more women supporting your rights if you (collective trans community) were engaging with them about your actual rights instead of rights like sexual access and indecent exposure, which are not rights, but sex crimes in the context that they're being obtained though tricks and coercion.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Why do we have to be friends?

(Obvi don’t mean you and I lol just in general)

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

lol we definitely don't have to be, I was just curious how different people see different paths to better relationships. And I was hoping most people here would want us all to be friends (again)!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lmao I didn’t know you meant the sub I thought this was in general 🤦🏾‍♀️

Ive been exhausted so I haven’t been here I must have missed something

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No you were right, I do mean in general! You've missed many wondrous things, but nothing like that lol Welcome back btw! 😄 PS: I can't organize my thoughts lately, sorry for being so confusing!!

[–]worried19 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't think it would take that much.

  1. No more self-ID
  2. No more child transition
  3. No more denial of biological sex
  4. Respect single-sex female spaces and provide designated third spaces for trans people (locker rooms, prisons, sports, etc.)

I'd be satisfied with the above and would be more than happy to be friends with the trans community if they would only dial it back to that point.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Do you think maybe repealing self-ID policies or at least seriously scaling them back would be enough of a catalyst to affect everything else? It kind of seems like the other things will collapse or start to crumble if just that one thing were to happen, but maybe that's oversimplifying things.

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That would help, but it's not plausible. What I really think is going to happen is that the bubble is going to burst and these policies are going to implode. I think we'll see change as the result of a backlash, not because the TRA movement agrees to common sense. I don't know if they will ever see reason or admit that they were even slightly wrong, especially after committing to their stance so hard.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hmm. I really hope the lesson isn't that painful, but that seems very plausible and probable. You're almost certainly right about them collectively never, ever admitting they were wrong. They seem really so embroiled in their momentum and image that it would be as good as death to admit being wrong. That movement and ideology's overall energy really is distinctly narcissistic that way, protecting the ego above all and at all costs.

[–]divingrightintowork 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It'd be interesting but also so hard to put back in the bag - what about all of the people who already changed their documents?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's a good point. It's maybe something that could only happen gradually over time, especially because of all those people. Scaling back or repealing those policies may really upset some people too since there would still be those who so easily changed their documents and paperwork, and people might feel it deeply unfair to suddenly not allow that for everyone else.

Actually, maybe this scenario wouldn't be too dissimilar from how popular drugs of the past that were liberally prescribed were found to be highly addictive. Many of those people who had been prescribed those drugs so easily (in the US at least) for decades can't suddenly be cut off from medication like benzodiazepines, but doctors are otherwise vigilant about newly prescribing those drugs. Following a similar model for scaling back on things like self-ID policies seems like it could maybe work.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

When were we friends? When unreasonable demands were not made of people we may have been polite acquaintances at best. When someone's imagined or presumed inner identity of some "gender" that imitates (or is a toxic mimic of) sex or sexist stereotypes, is expected to be indulged by others around that person, there are no friends in that equation, only: manipulators, manipulated, or resisters.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My use of 'friends' is probably a little hyperbolic, sorry! 😅 I can understand why you feel the way you do about all of this though (as best as I can).

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you meant "... for everyone to be polite again" it will be when team "QT" renounce and apologize for "death to terfs" "curb stomp terfs" and stop mockingly using the various circular definitions they employ. Or just admit a person's sense of identity is a lie they tell themselves to make sense of their place in the world or the place they want for themselves in the world.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m not super sure if friends could happen, not with everyone, but like if the number of trans people returned to the tiny amount of people it was 20 years ago. Also, self-ID, “cis”, preferred pronouns, a bunch of other things that were pushed on everyone in the last 10 or 15 years. I feel like if it became more quiet again and no one was being as demanding it might be able to just be noticed less. I don’t think it can be fixed entirely though and there were always problems even years ago. I felt it was easier to just be friends though and there are so many people here where I feel like we care about the same things but we don’t feel like allies any more because this and that makes me sad.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think we'll ever get back to a small amount of trans people? Since the definition and terms have changed to include more people it doesn't seem likely, at least not like before, but you almost certainly have a better idea of what will happen. I feel like we're all fragmented and the pieces are slowly finding each other to make a whole picture again, but it's been and seems like it will continue to maybe be painfully drawn out. If you don't mind, though, could you elaborate about the problems from even before? I have some ideas, but I'd rather not assume lol

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t know. I’m not super hopeful. I feel like maybe it could drop again because there is like a social contagion element of a lot of people now (“finding out” you are trans on the internet, social groups with many trans people, etc.). Maybe some of that will go away, but it probably won’t go back to how it was. Plus, a lot of people transitioned/are transitioning and probably aren’t going to all detransition so they will be a lot of those people just around even if it’s not happening at the same number for future people.

If you don't mind, though, could you elaborate about the problems from even before?

Male entitlement and narcissism has been a huge part of trans communities I feel like even when it was less demanding to people outside of those communities. The misogyny runs deep. Also, blaming all problems on external things like transphobia. The bad behaviors are just enabled so much worse now. So many people are just focused on coddling trans people that these super narcissistic personalities can just feed on it. I feel like transitioning has to select for those people or something because it can’t just be a coincidence there is so much toxicity. I’m super biased though because my experience in trans communities were almost entirely negative, so take that for what it is worth I guess.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What does everyone feel most strongly would bring about better relationships reminiscent of a warmer past?

For my own part, moving on. I've been GC for a decade or so and lost a family member to the trans rights juggernaut (to be clear, it was a cocktail of AGP and established mental illness that did it, and their escalating abusive behavior was the dealbreaker).

I take people as they come, one by one, trans or otherwise. What I'll never go back to is feeling any neutrality about collective trans rights activism . . . I say neutrality, because I neither trusted nor distrusted their motives early on, but the past four years especially have shown them to be collectively violent, exploitative, and, frankly, sociopathic (I'm sure you know exactly what I mean, having spoken openly about your encounters with predators in their midst).

So . . . the way forward for me, I guess, is to continue engaging people one-on-one at will, while also continuing to hold the lens to collective TRA abuses.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I really like your style! It's really good you can still engage in spite of the bigger, repugnant picture that's been created and shattered any illusions that trans people are benign or harmless--but it sounds like maybe it was less of a shock to you than to many others since you didn't necessarily see trans people that way, if I understand you correctly. That would track with the philosophy that you can't be too disappointed if you don't get your hopes up, which I honestly kind of love. Is that one of yours? I'm sorry about what happened with your family member, though, that's really sad. Hopefully things are much better now.

Thank you for sharing your insight and thoughts on this, I really appreciate it!

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Well, just speaking for myself here, I've been around, travelled, met and worked with a lot of people from different cultures and continents . . . my life experience takeaway is that people are people -- many are good, many are sane, some not so much. I wouldn't say I don't get my hopes up so much as having know and interacted with so many different people irl, I get the sense that some are trying to cope as best they can, some are addicted to self-righteousness (any flavor), some are extremely impressionable, some are intent on causing damage, and some are master manipulators. I don't think the TRA abuses would have gotten anywhere near where they are sans social media, because real-life humaning is a very different category of effort. But, yeah, I did sense "a disturbance in the Force" early on with TRA activity as practiced and distinctly felt like it was going to lead nowhere good, for anyone. I also recognized the seeds of postmodern sociology in it, as I've tangled with that bullshit numerous times in academia. It was a feeling like the pot of petunias in Hitchhiker's Guide -- "Oh no, not again.".

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Petunia pots just can't catch breaks! 😁 You're like a cursed psychic, doomed to watch the future you intuited come to life. The horror.

One of the best things to ever happen to me was moving away from my rural, childhood home and starting to discover a big world full of different kinds of people who can look and sound and act so different, but still share all of the same core things that make all of us human. It makes total sense that travelling so much and meeting so many different kinds of people would temper expectations and allay prejudices. And this:

I don't think the TRA abuses would have gotten anywhere near where they are sans social media, because real-life humaning is a very different category of effort

is so true. I would bet money it wouldn't have. Leave it to emerging internet mob mentality to reveal how much/little we've progressed 😩

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Right? Cassandra on the walls of Troy. With petunias. 🐋🌀💐

A more serious afterthought -- there's a distinct amount of overt mental health dysfunction coming from TRA circles (I know you know this, and have sadly experienced the predatory part of it in advocacy groups). I don't mean GD, or anger or exasperation or righteousness. I mean very true-to-type Borderline and other Personality Disorder behaviors. It follows consistent and obvious trajectories, and to be blunt, nobody is required to engage with BPD acting-out or related types of manipulation. It also alienates, as people wise up to the dynamics and disengage.

So until BPD etc. patients start taking ownership of their mental health status apart from GD, and begin to manage their interactions better, there will be even less empathy on offer.

(clarity edit)

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is such a great point. It's actually made me think a lot about the different people I've met and interacted with in that community, there are some of the meanest, scariest people who belong to that. Definitely beyond 'just' depressed and anxious, these are people I've seen go to prison. There is a particular person I knew who was the embodiment of this dysfunction and destruction.

You actually really got me thinking about this, I sort of forgot about some of these specific people. Definite inspiration for my next video topic, I hope you don't mind! When I can think of a better way to word this, I want to start a topic on this, too, unless you want to! Really good food for thought, Tentacles, thank you! 😀

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Cool! I don't mind at all. 🐙

[–]littlebear 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If it wasn't for the narcissistic entitlement of the QTs.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Succinctly put, thank you for sharing! It really is kind of impossible to befriend anyone like that--I'm definitely vigilant around anyone like that, regardless of their other beliefs. Dismantling the positive feedback loop of unwarranted self-importance in that camp really would make a world of difference and give them a leg up. Do you think curbing that entitlement alone would be enough to mend relations and move everything in a more desirable direction?

[–]shveya 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is what peaked me.

[–]usehername 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm fine being civil with trans people, however, I will always use sex-based pronouns and fight against their inclusion in opposite sex-segregated spaces. I have no hate or ill-will towards trans people, but it would simply be cruel of me to lie and call a trans-identified male a woman (adult human female), for example.

Any concession where a male is allowed in female-only spaces will be exploited. I don't even think extremely feminine males like Blaire White should be allowed in a women's prison, though they should definitely be in a protected wing. As far as bathrooms, a third option for trans people and families with mixed-sex kids (mother-son, for example) should be available.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this, they seem reasonable and it doesn't seem like it would take anything drastic necessarily to make any of that happen. The third/protected options you mentioned seem not only reasonable, but feasible. I respect your principles and belief that it would be cruel to reinforce a trans person's gender identity à la preferred pronouns, but for some reason that seems like it may be harder to actualize than third spaces would/will be since it's almost viewed as hate speech by some, and language seems to be one of the biggest issues of this culture war. Do you think that might be the case?

[–]FlanJam 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Undoing self-id would be huge, if gender ideologues actually walked back on that, it'd give me hope we could get along. Acknowledge the cotton ceiling issue, give a voice to detrans people, stop denying sex exists, acknowledge the importance of sex especially for women... if everyone could agree on those things, that's be amazing.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Scaling back self-ID policies and laws seems like something that could plausibly happen, as well as the severe language-policing. The whole mess seems to just continue to shine a light on the reality of biological sex, even if lots of people are being turned on to the idea that it isn't real or doesn't matter. I had to look up cotton ceiling again and this passage on a page from the top Google search result still has me giggling:

Unfortunately, trans exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs) have attempted to use "cotton ceiling" to smear trans women.[6][7] Apart from abuse, and typical TERF tactics, they have also managed to almost completely take over the Google search results for the query, filling it with misinformation and extreme transmisogyny.[8]

I'm glad that's not getting much sympathy though, I hope most people don't take this seriously. Things like that seem like that would peak a lot of people. You brought up some really good points and requests, thank you!

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No problem! I think the framing of the whole thing is terrible, because the gender-ideology side have made it seem like they represent trans activism but I dunno if they do. It might seem that way when you see all the eccentric people on twitter and youtube saying crazy stuff, but when I talk to real trans people they don't agree with any of the crazy stuff either. I wonder if you polled trans people, how many are actually on board with gender ideology.

The whole mess seems to just continue to shine a light on the reality of biological sex,

Its kinda hilarious in a way, its like people are rediscovering the importance of sex all over again. I saw some apolitical people on the female weight lifting reddit discussing that trans weightlifter in the olympics. They were saying its kinda unfair for natal women, and that we should have "amab and afab" divisions... and I'm thinking hello? we already have that its called male and female sports lol. Its wild how we have to reinvent the wheel.

I had to look up cotton ceiling again

Haha, totally not a biased article at all lol. In all seriousness tho, its so hard to talk about cotton ceiling because everyone exaggerates so much. Either it doesn't exist at all or trans people are going around forcing people to have sex with them. But in reality I think its a more nuanced discussion about social pressure, having boundaries, when a trans person should disclose, etc. Its an important discussion to have but no one wants to have it because its become so politicized.

Sorry for ranting but I wanted to get if off my chest lol.

[–]ausernamee 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Outside of issues and laws, for me, (trans man) I've lost trust for the trans movement.

As an example of why, it is well known that any group of people defined by any neutral characteristic is going to have good people and shitty people. For a long time, feminists asked "ok, we are totally on board with your gender and we want to support your rights, but what are we going to do about the situation of a predatory intact trans woman who is more able to overpower us, rape us, impregnante us, and infect us with stds, and how are we going to gatekeep cis men from claiming trans identity.

For over a decade we have been lied to by trans women that neither of those things is an issue. We say "one single instance is too many" (such as at wi spa) and how can we ensure that this never happens. Instead of engaging with the fact that we are not willing to sacrafice one single girl or woman's safety, trans women, instead of addressing our concern, have told us "you are trying to say that all trans women are predators, but that none of that ever happens."

After over a decade of "we are willing to risk the safety and dignity of cis girls and women but lie and pretend that we aren't and gaslight you" how do you expect there to be any kind of trust between trans activists and radfems?

I'd start off trying to regain that trust by advocating for female spaces for cis women, nonbinaries, and trans men that are sex segregated, but i can't promise that trust would ever be regained. Many of us started as trans activists and were tricked by lies, so it will require a lot of repair to even begin to consider reconciliation.

My experience as a ftm trying to find community with trans mtfs is basically as follows

  1. meet fellow excluded ostracised child on the playground

  2. hit it off, declare friendship, share expereinces. finally feel like i'm understood and safe

  3. get a beat down by the other child

  4. be asked immedatly afterwards if our friendship is still good

I feel like y'all ignore that your strongest critics started on your side, and don't factor that into how betrayed we feel that we went from "women aren't perverts, so children don't have to worry about trans women since trans women are women" to "women who are worried about their kids being exposed to adult penis are perverted bigots."

It will take work within the trans community to change your image.

Most people who don't want to see penis were completely on board with respecting your gender identity. We were sympathetic to the threat of male spaces and were willing to be allies in the push for third, gender free spaces. But after we find out that wanting the very best for our trans loved ones while maintain our own boundaries is bigotry, that makes us wonder if things that we previously were on board with and had not hesitancy toward, such as that trans women are woman is just a simliar trick as when tras insisted that no trans woman ever would ever assault a child because it's outside of their gender and that no cis man ever would pretend to be trans because it's outside of his gender.

That's not the fault of trans individuals who are also lied to by trans thought leaders and don't have the facts themselves, but regardless of intent, the trust is gone for a lot of people.

[–]divingrightintowork 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean the fact that TRAs take it as a persona affront that women want to gather in private on the basis of their femaleness is pretty fucking bad.... how is one supposed to coexist with people who take issue at such a basic decency / respect?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 5 insightful - 7 fun5 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 7 fun -  (4 children)

It would take a radical chance. The gc’s are advocating for a logical extension that would essentially make our lives unlivable.

Transition being excluded from insurance and public funds would mean the vast majority of trans people would never be able to transition medically. Most of us would rather die.

We can’t use men’s facilities. They aren’t safe. Saying we should use men’s facilities is saying we should accept violence or abandon public life entirely. Third spaces are great but also don’t exist most places.

Inability to change documents leads to discrimination at minimum, not to mention the mental pain of being forced to literally carry a card that has your shameful medical history on it.

We need legal protections, we need access to transition, and we need the facilities to let us live in society. Until GC can agree with that, there’s never going to be cooperative feelings because without that they are advocating for us to not be able to live.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Welcome back! And thank you for responding🙂

Legal protections and safe access to facilities seem reasonable, and I would think access to be able to transition is reasonable in the context of that being the most established treatment for some cases of GD at this time. Those are all really important things that I do think should be in place for trans people (I mean, everyone really, but particularly in this context). If we could have legal solutions that wouldn't infringe on anyone else's rights or space or person, while maintaining our privacy, that would be wonderful! That would actually just be nice for everyone, maybe.

If access to transition-related medicine was no longer an issue for trans people, do you think that we might turn our attention to trying to better understand and prevent the need to transition/GD altogether? I can see it going either way, but I'm curious what you think.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (2 children)

I think that it’s unlikely anyone would explore dysphoria without t gw express purpose of making sure there were no more trans people honestsly. No one is going to be exploring that without an anti trans agenda. Because transition effectively treats it. So the only reason to keep digging is because you don’t like transition.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's something I got into a bit of a discussion about on r/truscum a few months ago. 'No more trans people' does sound like sort of a dark goal, and I probably would have felt similarly to you in the past about that, but wouldn't preventing dysphoria and the need to transition altogether be even better than having to experience it in the first place, or see someone else experience it?

I mean I still don't think it's very feasible nor very compassionate to do away with transition as it is until something comparable or better might become available or standard practice, but research into preventative medicine or therapy or something similar seems like a good thing to me, even if there are people who hate trans people supporting it. Do you think it might ever be worth it, even if there are people who might support it for their own nefarious reasons? Or would it be something you supported if there were no bad actors pushing for it?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

I honestly don’t know. Like I can’t envision a world where I wanted to be a cis man. I hate them and don’t trust them. I don’t want to be one. I’d love to be a natal woman, I’ll accept being a trans woman, but anything that sought to make me a cis man feels evil and wrong an a hideous level to me personally.

Not to mention I think any movement in that direction is going to be inexorably tied to enforced masculinity (or femininity for trans men) because any money with that goal isn’t going to be seeking to make gnc people, they will be seeking to manufacture gender conforming people.