QT: What rights don’t trans people have?

submitted by wokuspokus from self.GCdebatesQT

So I hear a lot about ‘trans rights’. I want to know, what rights do trans people not have? I’m in the UK. Trans people cannot be discriminated against in employment, can vote, can marry who they want, can not be refused medical care due to their trans status etc. What rights don’t you have?

Using the facilities and playing sports with your chosen gender (instead of your birth sex) is not a right. No-one is stopping transwomen or transmen playing men’s sport, or using men’s facilities (specifically TW re facilities). Having a long waiting list for medical care isn’t a rights issue- it’s a funding issue. Mental health (non-trans related issues) has huge waiting lists too. Same for people who need kidneys. It’s not a rights issue- it’s lack of funding in all sectors.

So, what rights do trans people not have? I’m specifically talking U.K. but would be happy to know more about the situation in other countries, which I know little about and where the situation is likely different.

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[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The incident at the Wi spa shows they have they right to swing their "girldick" dick in the face of a little girl in public. If they want more, I'd be shocked-- but I've been shocked frequently for a while now. I guess they might want the right to do it in private, and then at the rape trial blame the victim, which men have done to women for all of history.

Congratulations!

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 6 insightful - 8 fun6 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 8 fun -  (111 children)

In America it is legal to discriminate against trans people in housing. It is also legal to refuse to give a trans person even non-trans related medical care.

Most places do not have third facilities meaning that it is essentially impossible to safely spend an extended period most places without using gender appropriate facilities for trans women as we are absolutely unsafe in men’s facilities. The only time I’ve been physically attacked since transition personally was in a men’s room.

Due to this facility issue in fact we are prevented to doing things like sports. Both because there are no safe facilities and because trans woman can’t Physically compete with men. But that is less a rights issue and more a practical concern even though it has health implications.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

The thing is that you can replace "discriminate against trans" with "discriminate against almost anyone" and it will hold true. You can discriminate same way against women. Only people of color and disabled are protected. Recently homosexual people became protected too, thought it was achieved not on case of the law, but on case of the court descision.

because trans woman can’t Physically compete with men

That is a lie. Hubbard is showing results for top 15% of male competitors of the same age and weight category. Cece Telfer two years after transitioning improved best time and would be in top 150 of male competition (previously was top 390). And they aren't even good athletes, as Cece's running technique is very bad and still can be improved by a lot, Hubbard had trauma and retired from sports because of it for 5 years. At the same time - women (female humans) of same age/weight/training level are not even remotely close to them: Cece was faster than second place by 9% (while 11-12% is often the difference between best men and women in same category in running), Hubbard pulled same weight as 2nd and 3rd place combined in same age and weight category, etc.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 5 insightful - 8 fun5 insightful - 7 fun6 insightful - 8 fun -  (19 children)

You can discriminate same way against (natal) women.

Sex is protected in both housing and medical administration federally. As is age, disability, race, legitimacy, and many other categories. Gender identity is not. Only in employment do we have federal protection due to the Harris funeral home case.

That is a lie.

It absolutely is not. There was a study done that indicated an approximate loss of 10 percent performance in endurance events, putting hormone controlled trans women on par with cis women. As well as documented muscle loss through transition and a known correlation of presence of testosterone and maintenance of muscle mass. It’s absolutely baseless to claim we can compete with men. You could quibble about whether we can compete with natal women but it’s absolutely baseless to claim we are even comparable to men athletically.

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There was a study done that indicated an approximate loss of 10 percent performance in endurance events, putting hormone controlled trans women on par with cis women.

That "study" was a 2015 paper about 8 trans-identified male long distance runners who self-reported that their times in distance events had gotten slower after "transition." One of the athletes included in the "study" was the author. The intervals between the "before transition" & "after transition" times these runners self reported varied greatly - in one case it was 29 years.

That "study" has been widely debunked, & recently the author of it said its findings were "flimsy" & have not been borne out by research since.

Males on T suppression for 12 months lose 5% of their muscle mass & strength advantage. Since the male advantage in sports ranges from 12% to close to 50%, there's no way this puts T-suppressed post pubertal males on a level playing field with female athletes.

The author of that "study" has also acknowledged publicly that even after 36 months of T suppression, males who identify as trans retain most of the male advantages they have over females in sports.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Feel free to cite any of those numbers. And, yet again, I’m not arguing we should compete with natal women I am saying we can’t compete with men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Sex is protected in both housing and medical administration federally. As is age, disability, race, legitimacy, and many other categories. Gender identity is not

Genuine question- how do you protect people over something that we can’t even define or understand?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sex is protected in both housing and medical administration federally.

Isn't you can fire woman for being pregnant in conservative states? Or it is just happening with other excuses there and then ignored by court? Also, in California state since 2016 "sex" is including "gender identity", so it should be protected there.

putting hormone controlled trans women on par with cis women

10% muscle loss is not enough to be "on par with cis women". Males and females have completely different anatomy, and males have up to 30-50% more muscles with same height and weight. So 10% loss would not be really enough. Even 50% would not be enough, because all other differences would still stay.

And again, cases I mentioned - those transwomen after years on cross-sex hormones would still be able to compete against males in same category and still would be competetive and better than 60-85% of "cis" men there. Cece even improved best time, so clearly not "have disadvantage". It is obvious that transwomen are losing competitiveness, but not to a very big degree, so maybe not taking first places, but possible to be near the top. So far only Jenner from top performing athletes transitioned, in other cases it is already low to medium performing male athletes who are transitioning. Opposite is not happening, as transmen even after years on testosterone are not able to even qualify (as often qualification into male competition is above all time female records).

Plus not in professional sport (or in countries like Canada even in competitive sport) - you do not even need to be on cross-sex hormones, you may be just "Non-binary woman male" and compete against "cis" women. So there it can be just manly looking man, buffed with 25 nmol/l testosterone levels and still compete against "cis" women.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Isn't you can fire woman for being pregnant in conservative states?

No. That’s illegal. It happens under pretense but it isn’t legal.

Also, in California state since 2016 "sex" is including "gender identity", so it should be protected there.

I’m speaking federally. The majority of states do not have gender identity protections.

10% muscle loss is not enough to be "on par with cis women". Males and females have completely different anatomy, and males have up to 30-50% more muscles with same height and weight. So 10% loss would not be really enough. Even 50% would not be enough, because all other differences would still stay.

I never claimed we were equal in sport to natal women. In fact I said specifically it was arguable. I personally am against trans women competing against cis women. My point is we can’t compare against men.

Opposite is not happening, as transmen even after years on testosterone are not able to even qualify (as often qualification into male competition is above all time female records).

This isn’t accurate. There have been exactly 1 trans man and 1 trans woman to qualify for Olympic trials. Again I’m not for trans women competing against natal women but factually this is the case.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see, thanks for clarifying.

There have been exactly 1 trans man

It was "athletic walk", where male and female differences are one of smallest (still between 5% to 10%, but not 10-12% to 17% like in running or cycling). Plus Mosier was not able to finish qualification beacuse of female-specific trauma that athletic walkers are getting in female category but rarely in male category (similar reason why female soldiers are rarely doing standing guarding, as it increases risks of leg injury). It is unknown if Mosier will be able to recover, and because of trauma Mosier was not able to qualify (so we don't know if Mosier was able to qualify). I had same trauma, but from running, and I was not able to recover to compete again.

In Mosier main disciplines (duathlone and triathlone) - was not able to qualify.

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    [–]wokuspokus[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

    That’s awful and raises an interesting point. WHY is Biden (who appears to be interested in trans rights) not doing anything about housing and medical care (genuine human rights issues) but doing everything he can to erase women’s rights in your name?

    I’m really sorry about what happened to you. My honest opinion is a third space should be present where practical. It is the only solution. The issue with going with gender identity is with toilets self ID is basically used. This means women can’t complain about a man (not transwoman, a literal creepy man) in their facilities, as he can claim to be a transwoman. There is evidence to show neutral toilets are more dangerous for women so they cannot come at the expense of a woman’s only space.

    As for sport, women cannot compete with transwomen. A third facility for changing should be provided, but transwomen (retaining advantages due to male puberty, and having much higher T levels than women) and transmen (who, in terms of sports, are equivalent to women doping T) need to compete with men. Women’s sport is not a fall back for transwomen (who, in terms of sports, are effectively men taking drugs to make themselves a little bit weaker). I know a lot of transpeople due to being a student in LGBT+ society. The MtFs are much stronger than any woman I know, and most of these transwomen are not sporty (I do lots of strength work, and they could obliterate me) and the transmen get really strong, really quick. There are mixed sports, which right now are great for transgender people and I really think they should be encouraged to play these. Recreational clubs often mix. Racquet sports (mixed doubles, and tend to mix recreationally) and running (smallest gap between men and women, and often very casual) clubs are great examples.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (22 children)

    I think Biden wants to help trans people genuinely but doesn’t actually understand the issues we face personally.

    My preference is single occupancy neutral spaces since dedicated trans facilities would necessarily out those using them and stealth is a trans woman’s best protection from persecution.

    Trans women can’t compete With men and given that athletes are specifically the hyper masculine and insecure men most likely to hurt us, shouldn’t even if they could. I’m not convinced we have no edge over natal women so I don’t advocate for that either. No trans women in sports is the best solution I’ve found even though I quite value sport personally. I power lift for example but don’t compete, even though my numbers wouldn’t be particularly impressive among natal women.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

    Why can’t transwomen compete with men?

    [–]wokuspokus[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I think we’re pretty much in agreement tbh. I hope the housing/healthcare situation gets sorted out for you.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

    Thanks.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

    In America it is legal to discriminate against trans people in housing.

    This is true.

    It is also legal to refuse to give a trans person even non-trans related medical care.

    This is not true.

    [–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

    Circling, welcome back! I hope you're doing well.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (23 children)

    Thanks but I’m very much not. Being here is a real emotional backslide.

    [–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

    Is that why you disappeared the first time? I wish there was something we could do to help. I like seeing you, but I don't want you here if this is a form of self harm or emotionally distressing for you.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (21 children)

    Participating here is essentially an act of emotional self harm. It’s distressing an I know it will be, but I keep doing it. When my mental health improved i deleted my account. But as I’ve had a backslide I came back. I’m not trying to be dramatic, just being honest.

    [–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

    Well, I hope you know that I care about your well being. Do you find this sub as emotionally harmful as the old debate sub? I feel like things are milder and friendlier here. We lost a lot of our more aggressive GC posters. Or is it just engaging with GC ideas at all that you find harmful? I don't think anyone here wishes anything bad for you.

    [–]littlebear 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    There were no aggressive GC posters on the old sub.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!! Littlebear’s back!

    • happy dancing commences *

    [–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    There definitely were a few. Don't you remember all those comment chains that got nasty? Not everyone was like that, but a couple were.

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (9 children)

    Well, I hope you know that I care about your well being.

    Thank you.

    It’s about the same I think. The one that sticks out as being most hateful of me personally (as opposed to all trans people) is Sloane who is obviously still here but I think there’s a bit less vehement sentiments in general. On the flip side I think there is almost no qt people speaking up at all. Most of the trans people seem quite Gc leaning with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Feel free to block me, if that’s what you need

    As I’ve said before, I don’t hate you, I disagree with you (admittedly vehemently so at times) and we clearly get frustrated with each other, but when I “hate” someone I don’t engage with them. I also tend not to hate internet strangers, things may get heated and I may care about the topic we all come here to discuss but at the end of the day it’s just a social media forum and if I was invested deeply enough to develop hate for someone I’d probably leave

    Unless you’re just saying I’m “hateful” generally- which… disagreeing and calling something you think is wrong out is not equal to hateful

    [–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

    I mean I believe you specifically hate me. Like not generally. You called me a rapist.

    I’m not blocking you or anything.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Called you a rape apologist. Because you behaved like one. Doesn’t mean I hate you, means I think you’re a rape apologist and I said so.

    [–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Most of the trans people seem quite Gc leaning with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions.

    Eh? I don't know what you're talking about. Fleurist and peaking are the only trans users here who are GC leaning.

    [–]worried19 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    Is there any way to create a poll on this sub?

    I'd be curious to know how many trans lurkers we actually have.

    [–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I think polls aren't supported by saidit, I'm afraid.

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      [–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      You can also block certain people, if you feel that you need to.

      On the flip side I think there is almost no qt people speaking up at all.

      Yeah, there aren't many QT people who meaningfully engage. I'd love to have more of them. u/Genderbender is an active QT contributor, but she's one of the few.

      [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

      I fully agree with you. This sub is friendlier, and Saidit has strict rules about moderation.

      [–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      I thought Saidit had less moderation overall?

      I think this sub is friendlier because it's still very small. I'm not a mod, but I don't think the mods have had to get heavy handed with anyone because it seems like rules are being obeyed, for the most part.

      [–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      For the most part, yes. Though, we've deleted comments and banned users in the short time I've been a mod. Although, certain user keep making alt accounts to avoid the warnings and bans...

      [–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Ha, all those repetitive threads denying biological sex. I agree with the frustration. We need more quality QT posters for sure.

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        [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

        It is also legal to refuse to give a trans person even non-trans related medical care.

        EMTALA says all emergency patients must be stabilized, so I'm guessing this is at the non-emergency level?

        [–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

        Debatably both since Trumps “conscience in care” guidance was never formally countered, but legally I think that’s correct. Even then is still wrong to refuse me a tetanus shot or an ankle splint because I am trans.

        [–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        I seriously doubt that guidance can legally supersede EMTALA. Has this really happened to you? If so, it's appalling and illegal. (Asking because I was actually referred to an ER as a nonemergency patient for a tetanus booster once, as the clinic had none in stock.)

        [–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (2 children)

        Me personally, no but I also won’t go to the doctor for anything nonemergency except to my pcp who is expressly trans friendly.

        The point is it isn’t illegal (edit referring to nonemergency care). We aren’t entitled to nondiscrimination in health care and that’s an important right.

        [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        Very cool that your PCP is trans-friendly. IME nonantagonistic providers make all the difference, and (sorry, House fans) also tend to be better diagnosticians. Not to say you want them enmeshed with the patient, but if they're unfairly dismissive, they're paying more attention to their internal prejudices than the patient in front of them.

        Yeah, I'm unaware of sweeping legislation about nonemergency care, it seems to be more about why and when a provider can refuse or dismiss a patient (usually it's about abusive or noncompliant patients). It's a gray area, we need some serious legal clarity on that.

        [–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

        Yeah it needs clarity. Being denied medical care is one of the most damaging discrimination actions.

        [–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (17 children)

        Do you meet a lot of trans people in the UK?

        [–]wokuspokus[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

        I am a bi student in the LGBTQ+ society at uni, so I know a fair few. They’ve never spoken of ‘rights’ that honestly aren’t privileges they want that would infringe on women’s rights.

        [–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (15 children)

        I can see you meeting more in that context.

        [–]wokuspokus[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

        I know more transgender people than the average Brit for sure.

        [–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (13 children)

        You say women's rights does that mean you meet more transwomen?

        Out of that context in wider society what would you say is going on?

        [–]wokuspokus[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

        I know lots more transwomen then transmen and they’re much louder. I honestly think the ‘raised as a man’ argument has merit, from my own experience. I also think they’ve not considered the impact on women, which relates to the socialisation argument- girls are conditioned to be kind and considerate far more than boys. Most of the transmen I know are really introverted and usually have mild Aspbergers. From the social circles of a few of my closer friends, there is some social contagion, but this seems to apply more to IDing as trans/NB and less to medical transition (or even starting hormones).

        [–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

        OK thanks.

        Though I think activism tends to attract loud voices.

        Do you feel pressure to identify as trans/NB or is that not something relevant to you?

        [–]wokuspokus[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

        That’s interesting. I am mildly autistic and a tomboy. I’ve always been a tomboy (I could hardly be less feminine if I tried XD). If I was 5-10 years younger I think I’d have been pushed into transition or thought about transition. I doubt I ever would have, as I’ve a good relationship with my parents, who are right-leaning (I’m quite left wing) and I think they’d have told me in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS I was being told a pack of lies. As it is, I’ve always been really confident in myself, so I wouldn’t dream of IDing as male or changing my body.

        [–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

        But why do you think you are attracted to masculinity?

        I mean I would hope the LGBQT+ community would be for masculine women.

        [–]wokuspokus[S] 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

        I like sports, metal and beer. I just enjoy those things. To me these things aren’t inherently masculine, they’re just things. Sport is fun, I like the way metal sounds and beer tastes nice. Doesn’t make me a bloke. I don’t agree with the ways society focuses on women’s appearance just because they were born female. Doesn’t make me a dude. I also like flowers. That doesn’t make me a woman. In short, I believe stereotypes are bulls—t and that I am a woman because I was born with the body type due to which my female ancestors were denied the vote and most other rights, and my sisters in other countries still have reduced rights. Sex selective abortion, menstrual huts and rape don’t happen because of stereotypes and you can’t ID out of oppression.

        [–]BiologyIsReal[M] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Why don't you try answering OP's questions for once? Why aren't you making your own threads intead of going off-topic to talk about feminity and masculinity as you were told?

        [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 10 fun2 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 10 fun -  (107 children)

        Here are some examples of cis privilege:

        1. I can use public restrooms that match my gender without fear of verbal abuse, physical intimidation, or arrest

        2. I have the ability to walk through the world and generally blend-in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at because of my gender expression.

        3. Strangers call me by the name I provide, and don’t ask what my “real name” [birth name] is and then assume that they have a right to call me by that name.

        4. I can reasonably assume that my ability to acquire a job, rent an apartment, or secure a loan will not be denied on the basis of my gender identity/expression.

        5. I have the ability to flirt, engage in courtship, or form a relationship and not fear that my biological status may be cause for rejection or attack, nor will it cause my partner to question their sexual orientation.

        6. If I end up in the emergency room, I do not have to worry that one gender will keep me from receiving appropriate treatment, or that all of my medical issues will be seen as a result of my gender.

        7. My identity is not considered a mental pathology (“gender identity disorder” in the DSM IV) by the psychological and medical establishments.

        8. People don't speculate that my gender identity is a result of abuse or trauma.

        9. I have the ability to not worry about being placed in a sex-segregated detention center, holding facility, jail or prison that is incongruent with my identity.

        10. I can easily find role models and mentors to emulate who share my identity.

        11. Hollywood accurately depicts people of my gender in films and television, and does not solely make my identity the focus of a dramatic storyline, or the punchline for a joke.

        12. I will not be harassed by the police or denied services at a bank or other institution because my legal sex does not match my gender presentation.

        [–]MarkTwainiac 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        I have the ability to walk through the world and generally blend-in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at

        Talk about privilege! If this really is true of you GenderBender, then clearly you are not nor ever have been visibly disabled, ill, female, pregnant, breastfeeding or of an ethnic, racial or religious minority. Nor are you elderly.

        Visibly disabled & ill people are constantly stared at, gawked at, whispered about, pointed at & laughed at. And worse.

        Girls & women are subjected to this sort of treatment - & all sorts of sexual harassment ranging from catcalling to assault - from about age 10/11 on.

        Pregnant women are constantly stared at, subjected to invasive questioning & unwanted touching, & insulting comments. Breastfeeding women are shamed & in many places subject to arrest for feeding our children in public. At the same time, breastfeeding women are preyed upon by pervs who in public places situate themselves nearby so they can leer & rub their dicks whilst they watch women feed children.

        I will not be harassed by the police or denied services at a bank or other institution because my legal sex does not match my gender presentation

        Pray tell, what police department/constabulary in the Western world today is harassing people coz of their "gender identity"? Receipts please.

        https://www.nbcnews.com/video/transgender-police-officer-finds-acceptance-on-force-in-florida-983876163955

        https://www.kusi.com/san-diego-police-department-adopts-new-rules-for-interactions-with-transgender-and-nonbinary-citizens/

        https://www.justice.gov/crs/video/respecting-identity-law-enforcement-training-and-transgender-community

        The police in the UK are entirely in the tank for trans people.

        https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/humberside-police-twitter-transgender-limerick-2468385

        What bank in the Western world is denying people services based on "gender presentation"? Again, receipts.

        https://twitter.com/BarclaysUK/status/1410153663486701576

        https://youtu.be/a0EfDkYJlNg

        [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (1 child)

        I am disabled and a cis female. Well yes, I should have added "due to my gender" at the end.

        [–]loveSloaneDebate King 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Do you really not get the point that’s being made, or are you just avoiding addressing it?

        [–]loveSloaneDebate King 21 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 3 fun -  (68 children)

        Okay… but what rights don’t trans people have? Lol

        [–]comradeconradical 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

        She said it herself. What they call rights are really just "privileges", and they want these privileges at the expense of female women's and children's actual rights.

        [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

        The right to flirt and not be rejected lmfaooooo

        [–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        Sounds rapey.

        [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

        The list sounds like a narcissists Wishlist lol.

        People on tv should be more like me, people should enjoy it when I flirt with them, people should like the way I look, people should let me go where I want to go, people should put my feelings first.

        I cannot comprehend why gb does this on the behalf of such obvious self centered people.

        [–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        It’s only rapey if you’re not trans. That’s how it works, apparently.

        [–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Stonewall wanted to remove rape by deception from a crime list, but only for transgender and non-binary people.

        Situations like this happened at least dozen times, and it is only ones which got into big news: https://www.themix.net/2020/01/transgender-pedophile-transgender-woman-hormones/

        So yeah, you are correct.

        [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (61 children)

        They have rights on paper, but those right's aren't always carried out. Kind of like with other marginalized groups.

        [–]loveSloaneDebate King 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (59 children)

        So they have rights… but face discrimination like pretty much everyone who’s not a straight, white male who isn’t trans…

        I agree. Sounds like they get treated like everyone else to me

        [–]NeedMoreCoffeeGC 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        You mean like everyone. Even straight white males can face discrimination especially when they are poor or disabled. This racist privilege rethoric really just needs to go on all fronts.

        [–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

        Whatever lmao

        Im not going to go back and forth with someone who doesn’t understand the concept of white privilege or systemic racism. If you don’t want to acknowledge it why waste my effort.

        That poor or disabled white man may not get to flex his privilege with the reach of an able bodied and slightly wealthier white man- but he’d be a lot better off than a poor disabled white woman or poc of either sex.

        Also- I didn’t say that someone disabled or poor wouldn’t be discriminated against, but you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think a poor or disabled white male would still have more privilege than a poc or even white female in his shoes. That’s the point. Even if white males (including the trans ones) do experience some form of discrimination, they will still inevitably receive better treatment than any other demographic. Poor white guy gets arrested at the same time as a wealthy black man for the same crime- which one do you think is getting shot or more jail time?

        [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 10 fun2 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 10 fun -  (54 children)

        People who aren't trans are cis.

        [–]loveSloaneDebate King 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

        No, they just aren’t trans

        [–]strictly 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

        People who aren't trans are cis.

        Cis is the short form of cisgender, aka having a gender identity at the same side of your sex, which requires having a gender identity in the first place. Many non-transitioners don't have gender identities. Someone who claims to be against against misgendering should respect the lack gender identities of those who don't have gender identities instead of misgendering them with false gender identities.

        [–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Someone who claims to be against against misgendering should respect the lack gender identities of those who don't have gender identities instead of misgendering them with false gender identities.

        And there it is.

        load more comments (4 replies)

          [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          rights on paper

          If the paper carries a federal, state, county, or municipal seal and was enacted by an elected body or its appointee, that is a right.

          [–]worried19 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          laughs in GNC

          • I can use public restrooms that match my gender without fear of verbal abuse, physical intimidation, or arrest
          • I have the ability to walk through the world and generally blend-in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at because of my gender expression.
          • I can reasonably assume that my ability to acquire a job, rent an apartment, or secure a loan will not be denied on the basis of my gender identity/expression.
          • People don't speculate that my gender identity is a result of abuse or trauma.
          • I can easily find role models and mentors to emulate who share my identity.
          • Hollywood accurately depicts people of my gender in films and television

          This is really such bullshit for those of us who are gender nonconforming and have been our whole lives. No, I can't use women's restrooms without fear of public scrutiny or harassment. No, I don't fucking blend into the crowd. I've had people stare and gawk and whisper at me for years. Drunk dudes have yelled "what the fuck is that?" at me in public. I've been called slurs like "dyke" based on my masculine presentation. No, I don't have to worry that my gender expression won't cause employers to reject me. In many workplaces, femininity is overtly or covertly required. I can't walk into an office anywhere in the world and get a job. No, actually people do speculate about women who reject femininity. Some people believe we do reject it because of trauma or abuse. No, I can't find female role models who look like me. They are almost entirely absent and decreasing every day as more and more GNC females flee womanhood like a house on fire. No, Hollywood doesn't accurately depict women like me at all. We're either absent or increasingly transitioned, which is also reflected in real life.

          It pisses me off to see people who never have to deal with any of this shit be so cavalier about it and claim that it only affects GNC people who identity as transgender. I don't have any of this so-called "cis privilege" as a masculine woman.

          [–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          laughs in GNC

          joins in

          This core fallacy of gender grows out into some weird-ass arguments.

          [–]BiologyIsReal 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

          1. I don’t use bathroom that match my “gender”, I use bathrooms that match my SEX. And in some places males can get away with using women’s bathrooms by claiming to be women. In some parts of the world women don’t have access to single-sex bathrooms and they suffer from it. Not understanding the importance of sex-segregated bathrooms for women IS a sign of privilege.

          2. Lies, I’ve been questioned for not being “feminine” enough despite that I’m not that “masculine”. Women are also judged by their appearance all the dam time.

          3. That is because people can tell someone else’s sex. But, if I made up a ridiculous name for me, people surely will ask me what my real name is.

          4. More lies. People may discriminate women for not being “feminine” enough, or just for being women, really. Employers also may discriminate women for the possibility of getting pregnant.

          5. False. Your sex is very important when pursuing a romantic/sexual relationship. For example, as a straight woman, I’m not interested in women that way. Likewise, gay men also are not interested in me.

          6. “Gender identity” has no place in the emergency room. What matters is your sex. Treating trans identified people according to their “gender identity” may get them killed. Is that what they want?

          7. It’s the only medical condition where self-diagnosis and self-medicalization is encouraged. Trans activists are also the ones deciding what (and what not) is researched in this area.

          8. Well, people may speculate about a possible trauma or abuse based in many things, but it’s true that people don’t usually think a lack of cross-sex identification is the result of abuse or trauma.

          9. Some males have been sent to women’s prisons by claiming to be women in certain countries. And that have no ended up well for the female inmates, i.e. rape. Have you ever heard about “Karen White”?

          10. Really? Because I could have sworn there was a lack of role models for women in certain areas…

          11. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Hollywood depicting women well? Please tell me you’re joking.

          12. Having legal documents that state false information about you is not a right, sorry. Lying about your identity may get anyone in trouble with the police. Whether the police may abuse their power is a separate issue, but not exclusive of trans identified people.

          [–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

          Honestly not to sound completely dismissive*, but everything that gets listed as discrimination or abuse against trans people applies to every other “marginalized” community. And it happens to members of those other communities significantly more frequently.

          The only exception being the mental health aspect, but being a female, a poc, lgb etc aren’t mental illnesses and being trans is so I think it makes sense that the mental health of a community attempting to hold everyone who isn’t a member hostage to their illogical beliefs and invasive wants might be something the rest of us want to discuss.

          *im not saying that the crimes/discrimination against trans people doesn’t happen or doesn’t matter, nor am I saying that being trans doesn’t potentially open someone up to risk of violence/discrimination. All I’m saying is that trans people are drastically safer than other marginalized communities and despite this, they have more protective measures and laws in place than those of us in communities that are actually experiencing high levels of crime/discrimination against us…

          [–]BiologyIsReal 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

          As far as I know the more vulnerable group of trans identified people are the ones involved in prostitution, but prostitution being a dangerous activity is unsurprising. Yet TRA are mainly in the "sex work (sic) is work" camp...

          [–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          Even amongst sex workers trans people experience less (reported/discovered, to be fair) violence than sex workers who aren’t trans. So even in the area where their death rate is highest, it’s still lower than for others.

          [–]BiologyIsReal 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          I guess so. It seems some find prostitution "validating" despite all the shit that comes with it, which is something I can't really understand...

          [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          The tras and their idiot liberal allies (as opposed their run of the mill liberal allies) think sex work is work because they only see women as sex objects. A woman scientist sounds like a "sexy woman scientist" halloween costume to them. "oh, a real woman scientist. wow! progress. She doesn't have to be a sex worker if she doesn't want."

          The sex work is work nonsense helped me realize, as Scary Terry said on a Rick and Morty episode: "sex is sacred." It's not work

          [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (4 children)

          1. There have been cases where trans women were beaten for using women's bathrooms. I'm female and I don't use restrooms or locker rooms based on my sex.

          2. This is something trans (and gender non-conforming) people experience more often.

          3. If someone tells you "X is my name" and you otherwise have no reason to trust them, then you shouldn't question them because their name doesn't match their gender presentation, unless you have an actual reason for asking someone their birth name.

          4. Nobody is saying women aren't discriminated for being female. People have a variety of marginalized identities and each identity has a unique experience. I'm disabled and I went through things able-bodied people will never go through.

          5. I am a straight woman. I am attracted to men, which includes cis men and passing trans men. I am not attracted to cis women and passing trans women. I just don't think if I dated a passing trans man, it is a lesbian relationship. We wouldn't go through the same things lesbian couples go through.

          6. I think ER staff should respect people's pronouns if the patient specifies it, but yes people should be treated in accordance to their assigned sex at birth. Plus, sometimes doctors may just dismiss the condition as a result of taking hormones instead of taking the time to see what the real issue is.

          7. I don't have an issue with self-diagnosis. What I do think is we need to do more to ensure people requesting surgeries will not regret it later. Most people do not regret it, but some do. I have no issues with exploratory therapy to help people explore their gender identity and figure out if they really are trans or not.

          8. People speculate being gay is a result of abuse or trauma. Is that OK?

          9. Women can rape other women too. In any case, a rapist should be highly guarded and supervised, just like any other dangerous inmate.

          10. Growing up I had women role models, Miley Cyrus, Miranda Cosgrove, Demi Lovato, Selena Gomez, Ashley Tisdale, etc. The thing is all of these role models were able-bodied. I'm disabled and we never had an openly disabled role model.

          11. There are issues with how women are depicted. Many movies fail the Bechdel test. Though cis women are better represented than trans people (both women and men).

          12. This specific form of police abuse only happens to trans people. Trystan Cotten, a black trans man, did an ethnographic study of trans men and found that 96 percent of African American and Latino men want to have surgery, while only 45 percent of white respondents do. That’s because a trans history can exacerbate racial profiling. When they pat you down, if you don’t have a penis it’s going to be obvious (or if you’re a trans woman and you have a penis, that becomes obvious). https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/

          [–]BiologyIsReal 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

          1. Please provide proof.

          2. Most people fall to live up 100% to the sex roles and stereotypes of their culture.

          3. A male using a female name is the reason why people know that is not his real name.

          4. Yes, TRA says this bullshit all the time. They say women are discriminated not for our sex, but for feminity and that we're privilieged for being born female. How do you explain things like sex selective abortion, FGM or menstrual huts then? Women are rutinely disbelieved when talking about their discrimination, yet "trans women" are automatically believed about whatever they say. BTW, in my country, Argentina, trans people got self-ID and free "gender affirming treatment" passed in law 8 years before abortion was legalized. What is more, the gender identity law got more support from the lawmakers. "Cis" privilege, my a**.

          5. It's easy to talk about hypotheticals. How many "trans men" has you actually dated? Do you even know how "neopenises" actually look like? Can you affirm they are indistiguishable from actual penises?

          6. ER staff have more pressing issues than worrying about a patient's pronouns, who may not be even concious...

          7. Do you think self-diagnosis are a good idea for other medical conditions, too?

          9. Yes, they can. However, most rapists are men. And trans identified males (aka "trans women") retain male patterns of criminality.

          12. This sounds like the problem was their race...

          [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

          1. Neulisa Luciano Ruiz was killed after using the women's restroom. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/transgender-woman-killed-puerto-rico-after-using-women-s-bathroom-n1142661

          Lauren Jackson suffered a broken jaw and fractured skull after being beaten by a man for using the women's bathroom https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/01/idaho-man-found-guilty-of-hate-crime-after-beating-transgender-woman-over-bathroom-use-on-oregon-coast.html

          Jazmina Saavedra, who's running for US Congress in California's 44th District, filmed herself yelling at a transgender woman for using the bathroom at Denny's

          https://www.businessinsider.com/dennys-transgender-confrontation-in-viral-video-2018-5

          1. Yes, but people who significantly deviate from gender norms are more likely to experience discrimination for being GNC.

          2. Um, no. Trans women aren't males, and they may have legally changed their names. Do you pressure cis women to tell you what their maiden name is?

          3. We are saying your are privileged for being cis, not for being female. Cis men also have cis privilege. Trans women are not automatically believed about whatever they say.

          4. I've dated a post op transman in college.

          5. Health care workers should respect a conscious patient's pronouns and provide gender affirming care.

          6. I myself have got help for a few medical conditions as a result of self-diagnosis. But transgenderism is not a medical condition.

          7. This is why we isolate actual rapists.

          8. It's race and gender intersecting.

          [–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          1. If women's and men's bathrooms are so dangerous, maybe it's time to advocate for third spaces...

          2. True, the more you deviate from social norms, the more likely you will be discriminated. However, you don't need to identify as trans to be GNC, which was my point. As I said I've been questioned for not being feminine enough and I'm not that GNC. Saying that women aren't judged for their appearance and how they adhere to sex roles is just untrue.

          3. That is not how surnames work in Spanish. Married women may be refered by their husband surname, but they do keep their surname too. I don't know if this is a good analogy, anyway. At least I don't know why would a woman find offensive being asked her maiden name, but that may be because I find the costume of changing last names odd.

          4. "Cis" privilege is nonsense. If you think there is no difference between "trans women" and women, you're effectively saying women are not oppressed because of our sex, i.e. that we are privileged for the fact of being born female. So tell me, are things like menstrual huts, sex selelective abortions and female genital mutilation a sign of "cis" privilege? Why do you think a woman may be denied an abortion? Because of her feminity (or lack of it)? Really? If a man tried to rape me, whould you think he would care how I identify as? How do you explain "trans women", and not "trans men" are the ones leading the trans movement? How do you explain that "trans men" mainly make the news by getting pregnant? And what can you tell me about what I said about my country? Abortion was legalized after self-ID, is that "cis" privilege, too? What do you think of this case that happened here before the legalization? A 11 years old girl from the north of the country was raped and got pregnant. The Church and local authorities delayed the possibility of an abortion and finally forced her to give birth by C-section. Mind you, this was in spite the abortion should have been legally allowed on the basis that the pregnacy both (a) endagered the girl's health/life, and (b) was the result of a rape. Is this a sign of "cis" privilege, too? Do you think this girl could have avoid this nightmare if she have identified as "trans boy"? Do you think a "trans girl" could have gone through the same?

          5. And how did it go if I can ask?

          6. Should an underweight anorexic patient be told they're in fact obese and given a liposuction, too?

          7. If it is not a medical condition, why must "gender affirming treatment" be covered up by the public and private health systems? Why are such "treatments" described as "life-saving"? Why do TRA say that not providing such "treatments" leads to suicide? You cannot have it both ways.

          8. Supposing they are convicted at all...

          [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          We are saying your are privileged for being cis

          We are not cis, therefore you are misrepresenting and mischaracterizing us.

          [–]wokuspokus[S] 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

          What legal rights do they not have?

          1) Just use the lav matching your sex. True oppression regarding this is not having a female facility, which some places are reverting to (male & neutral)

          2) Not a legal right, also applies to women, disabled people.

          3)Not a legal right- you can’t control peoples speech. Although it is very rude.

          4)They literally can.

          5)This has nothing to do with legal rights. Sexual attraction has the word SEX in it for a reason. Not disclosing trans status is coercive rape.

          6) If you have medical issues, they should be treated in accordance with your sex. Not legal rights related.

          7) How can wanting to take hormones and take risky surgery/ cut off healthy body parts not be a mental health issue? Tbh I think the stigma around MH generally is probably a bigger issue than this classification. It’s okay not to be okay. Not a legal rights issue.

          8) Anyone with any ‘issues’ post trauma has this. Nothing to do with legal rights.

          9)You get placed with your SEX. To put men in with women, regardless of how they identify, puts women at risk. Not to mention how easy it is for men (not trans) to claim they are trans and have women at their mercy. And it’s happening, check out #thisneverhappens. This is nothing to do with trans people either, it’s just men taking advantage. Your feelings do not supersede women’s rights. How dare you even suggest this!

          10) This has nothing to do with legal rights.

          11) Women, black people etc.

          12)Fairly sure this isn’t true. Having to clarify trans status isn’t infringing on your human rights.

          So, I ask again, what RIGHTS do trans people not have?

          [–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

          But but but I thought 'gender expression' had nothing to do with being 'cis' or trans? But here you're using gender expression more than once specifically to differentiate between 'cis' and trans people. Curious!

          [–]kwallio 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          I'm going to have to push back on the mental health aspect of this a bit. Is gender dysphoria a mental health problem or not? If not then whey all the medicalisation, surgeries etc? Why are people being told that trans people will literally commit suicide if they don't get what they want?

          If it is a mental health disorder than why is only medical transition and not counseling or some other sort of therapy or mental health treatment part of the treatment plan? No other mental health disorder is treated like this.

          The trans narrative on mental health vis a vis gender dysphoria is completely inconsistent. You seriously can't have it both ways, both a mental health conditions and completely normal, must be treated with transition only and no other mental health type treatment. Its ridiculous on the face of it.

          People threatening suicide in any other context is typically considered manipulative behavior and should never be indulged. Except when someone is trans, for some reason.

          [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          No other mental health disorder is treated like this.

          Right. I'm going to bring up bipolar, since u/Genderbender identified herself as a patient and it runs in my own family, so I know it very well (ditto at least one other user here per another thread).

          You cannot (for instance) build and promulgate advocacy for bipolar disorder patients that both affirms and denies its existence as a mental health disorder. You must choose.

          Similarly, you cannot build and promulgate advocacy for trans people where GD is repeatedly cited and officially acknowledged as a feature of the trans experience and simultaneously deny mental illness (aka GD) as being a feature of the trans experience. You must choose.

          [–]littlebear 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

          1. Violating the privacy of the opposite sex is not a right.

          2. Because women can perfectly blend in and not be harassed on the street.

          3. Maybe don't lie about your name.

          4. Women can be fired for simply stating biology is real.

          5. As if lesbians aren't attacked for refusing the nice big girl cock.

          6. Trans people have the same access to health care as everyone.

          7. Your own community considers transness a mental illness.

          8. Why else would someone want to cause a hormonal imbalance and chop off healthy body parts.

          9. So are we supposed to accept being assaulted by men-who-identify-as-women?

          10. Given the record numbers of people identifying as trans or NB, of course you can.

          11. See above.

          12. Where do you live where you have the police called on you? I'm black and live in a white neighborhood and never had the police called on me.

          [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

          1. Your privacy isn't violated. Restrooms have stalls.

          2. No one is saying women aren't harassed.

          3. Trans people aren't lying about their name. People can change their names.

          4. Women, and men are fired for transphobic comments, not for stating biology is real.

          5. No one is forced to sleep with anyone. If you aren't attracted to trans people, that's OK.

          6. Yes but something called discrimination exists.

          7. No, you consider transgenderism a mental illness.

          8. Taking hormones to appear another sex or removing breasts is not the same as chopping off an arm. Is getting a nose job a mental illness? Cis men live without large breasts so they are not essential, and people have beards so creating a beard is also OK. I am mentally ill myself and do agree there is a stigma around mental health. But wanting to physically transition doesn't necessarily equal a mental health issue.

          9. No one should accept being assaulted by anyone, and violent offenders need more monitoring.

          10. Trans and NB people are still underrepresented in the media.

          11. See above.

          12. Where did I say I have the police called on me?

          [–]littlebear 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          1. Well I don't want to pee or shit next to a man. Conversely, men don't want to pee or shit with women around.

          2. Just read your own words "I have the ability to walk through the world and generally blend-in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at because of my gender expression."

          3. They change their names to deceive everyone.

          4. Like are we not allowed to say sex is immutable and men can't become women just because they feeeeeellll like it?

          5. Lesbians are attacked and called transphobic for not wanting wanting to sleep with biological men.

          6. How often does that happen? More often there are misogynist apologists like you.

          7. People on your side disagree with you.

          8. I'm done arguing with you and yes chopping off any healthy body part is a mental illness.

          9. We can prevent assaults by not allowing men-who-identify-as-women in women's spaces.

          10. Bruce Jenner, Ellen Page, Demi Lovato, Roderick Cox, Jazz Jennings, Demi Lovato.

          11. Trans people are well represented in the media.

          12. Like why is this an issue for you?

          [–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          Women, and men are fired for transphobic comments, not for stating biology is real.

          Stating that biology is real (as in there are only two sexes; humans can't change sex; or sex does matter in safegurading, health care, sports, dating, etecetera) is considered "transphobic". Yourself has said that female and male are not biological terms...

          [–]strictly 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          I can use public restrooms that match my gender

          If public restrooms are gendered then most of us have no restroom matching our non-existing gender identities so trans people with gender identities would have more privilege than non-trans people without gender identities in a countries with gendered bathrooms.

          I have the ability to walk through the world and generally blend-in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at because of my gender expression.

          I can reasonably assume that my ability to acquire a job, rent an apartment, or secure a loan will not be denied on the basis of my gender identity/expression.

          Hollywood accurately depicts people of my gender in films and television, and does not solely make my identity the focus of a dramatic storyline, or the punchline for a joke.

          I will not be harassed by the police or denied services at a bank or other institution because my legal sex does not match my gender presentation.

          I can easily find role models and mentors to emulate who share my identity.

          Here you seem to be talking about gender conformity and heterosexuality which shouldn't be conflated with not being a transitioner. Non-trans people can be discriminated against for their gender non-conformity just like trans people.

          Strangers call me by the name I provide

          Being called your name can only be considered privilege if you happen to like your name.

          I have the ability to flirt, engage in courtship, or form a relationship and not fear that my biological status may be cause for rejection or attack, nor will it cause my partner to question their sexual orientation.

          Here you seem to talk about being straight again but even straight people aren’t safe from being rejected by homosexuals of the opposite sex due to their biological status (aka being the wrong sex). Sexual minorities are used to being rejected for being the wrong sex though as most people are straight. It’s also not unusual for sexual minorities to have had straight-identifying partners who questioned their sexual orientation due to being attracted to someone of the same sex.

          If I end up in the emergency room, I do not have to worry that one gender will keep me from receiving appropriate treatment, or that all of my medical issues will be seen as a result of my gender.

          Are you saying people with gender identities risk getting their physical ailments dismissed as a result of their gender identity? If that’s case the case that seems like a risk you, as a non-trans person, would share with trans people gender identities as you also say you have a gender identity. Or are you talking about gender dysphoria? Then gender dysphoric non-trans people would encounter the same problem as gender dysphoric trans people.

          My identity is not considered a mental pathology (“gender identity disorder” in the DSM IV) by the psychological and medical establishments.

          In the DSM–5 it’s called gender dysphoria and people who meet the DSM-5 criteria of gender dysphoria would be considered to have mental pathology regardless if they are trans or not so that’s not a unique issue to trans people either.

          People don't speculate that my gender identity is a result of abuse or trauma.

          It’s not unusual for trans activists to portray non-trans people without gender identities as liars or bigots for not having gender identities so non-trans people are not safe from unfair speculations either.

          I have the ability to not worry about being placed in a sex-segregated detention center, holding facility, jail or prison that is incongruent with my identity.

          Only one of the those two things can be true for you, either you have the privilege of being placed in a sex-segregated detention or you have the privilege placed in a gender identity-segregated detention. If the former is true than the latter isn’t, as it’s more or less guaranteed a large bunch of the females in sex-segregated detention aren’t going to share your gender identity. And if you have the privilege of being put in sex-segregated detention then trans people have the same privilege, and neither of you have the privilege of being put in a gender identity-segregated detention, putting you both in the same position. Some countries do put trans people in prisons for the opposite sex though, denying people the right to sex-segregated detention, this arrangement might perhaps feel “congruent” with the identities of males prisoners who want to be around females prisoners (as many of these males don't really seem to care about the gender identities of these females, they just want access to female-bodied people), but for a large percentage of the female prisoners it's going to be incongruent as they never shared any gender identity with these males who call themselves women in the first place.

          [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

          1. We are not using the rest room that matches our gender, we are using the rest room that matches our sex. Bathrooms are segregated by SEX because they are where bodies perform bodily functions. Gender has nothing to do with it.

          2. That is one hell of a presumption you are making. Women can not do that. Men who 'blend in' do that. To the extent they do not blend in, all the things you list end up on the table. Sorry, it's human nature. If I walk through a Pride parade with a Terfs ARE A-OK tee shirt, I would experience than what you are listing.

          3. Why do you assume that? I've been called many things. I've been called bad variants on my name, and even misgendered. People with uncommon names experience it all the time.

          4. This is about your own assumptions, you currently have the right to not make those assumptions. No one cares about your sense of identity or expression the way you do. How you dress does create impressions, this is true for all people not just you. It's called growing up. I won't wear a death to capitalists tee shirt on a job interview, and if I do I won't have odd suspicions about why they didn't hire me. If people think you look like you are not to be trusted any of the three things you mention in 4, that is on them and you. Conformity exists in trans circles just as it does in other circles.

          5. The cotton ceiling-- classy. You will be rejected for biological reasons, every time just as everyone else is. Blonde haired blue eyed guys will get make it with women who like tall dark and handsome types, or 'latinos' or Italian guys. Some women like muscles, some don't. Some guys don't like women above or below a certain height. Some women dis like dick. Some women don't want to be with an amputee. Same with some guys. What ever, grow up and deal with it. If you want to be with someone who does not want to be with you then maybe you are not seeing them as an equal and independent person with their own rights and their own freedom and their own strengths and weaknesses. Try respecting the person you want to fuck instead of want to fuck someone regardless of if you respect them. When you meet someone who does not want to fuck you, move on. To blame the cotton ceiling is rapey.

          6. Your gender might prevent you from receiving the proper medical care. Women and men, as defined by sex not gender, have very different medical needs and their symptoms and health problems are different. The extent to which trans people have their own unique medical needs is not understood. Women's medical needs have been ignored and are still largely ignored. Medicines are routinely approved with little sense of how women will react, and women have died too often before the problem was discovered. Emergency room medicine is always about saving the body from dying. Your gender is not part of any of your vital organs or involved in anything that matters to an emergency room doctor.

          7. Are you saying your identity is a dismorphia? Are you diagnosing yourself? Whose call is it to say if you have a mental pathology? Here's how I avoid getting a diagnosis I don't want: I don't go to doctors. Try it.

          8. That is an unfounded assumption. A white guy in a date, even a blind date, with an Asian woman is assumed to have that as a fetish. Anyone dating someone of another race is seen by some as having that as a thing, instead of seeing two unique adults who might like each other. Every one makes assumptions about everyone, it sucks. Here's an assumption I'm making about you: you're a "lesbian", a trans woman lesbian. I would hate for my assumption to be right, because I might keep right on making that assumption.

          9. Anyone who does not worry when they are placed in a detention center or any of those places is probably very dangerous. If it is sex-segregated, then you are placed in the right one and your sense if identity has nothing to do with it. Do you identify as guilty? If not then you are already in a place that is incongruent with your identity. Trans men suddenly become very open to the idea that they are in fact trans-identifying females but really females when they are placed in these situations, so it is safe to say the trans community is divided on this at least in practice anyway.

          10. You make another bad assumption here. What is a shared identity anyway? Anyone watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer identifies with all the characters at one time or another. We identified with Willow and Xander and everyone who had to fight the monsters when Buffy was dead. We then identified with Buffy when we learned out miserable she was, during the singing episode, for having been brought back. If you can't identify with some fictional character, it is badly written.

          11. Hollywood accurately dipicts NOTHING. Everyone is a puchline of a joke, and they should be. Look at 1950s tv comedies. At the height of patriarchy, who were the bumbling idiots in every sitcom: guys, with the exception of I Love Lucy and that show turns out to be still among the best ever made. Here's a joke I heard the other day: Why don't Sicilians like Jehovah's Witnesses? They don't like any witnesses. Ha, a mafia joke. I don't think I have heard a mafia joke in decades. Irish jokes, Polish jokes, dumb blonde jokes, jokes about jocks being idiots: all fair game. You want acceptance like those groups?

          12. stop conflating sex and gender.

          [–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          so it is safe to say the trans community is divided on this at least in practice anyway.

          And divided based on sex. What a coincidence?

          [–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          yes! It would be laughable about how willfully ignorant so many people are being, over so many points, while indulging obvious perverts and speaking the obvious truth that young women are escaping rape culture made impossibly worse by how ubiquitous porn is, if it was so tragic and ultimately society-crashing.

          [–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          If I end up in the emergency room, I do not have to worry that one gender will keep me from receiving appropriate treatment, or that all of my medical issues will be seen as a result of my gender.

          Emergency medicine doesn't work that way in the U.S.

          [–]divingrightintowork 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

          "Here's a list of made up things that mostly only men who identify as women care about and also are not actually privileges many actual women have. But also a lot of them aren't even accurate for men who identify as women and are pretty baseless."

          Here are some examples of cis privilege:

          I can use public restrooms that match my gender without fear of verbal abuse, physical intimidation, or arrest

          I have the ability to walk through the world and generally blend-in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at because of my gender expression.

          Strangers call me by the name I provide, and don’t ask what my “real name” [birth name] is and then assume that they have a right to call me by that name.

          I can reasonably assume that my ability to acquire a job, rent an apartment, or secure a loan will not be denied on the basis of my gender identity/expression.

          I have the ability to flirt, engage in courtship, or form a relationship and not fear that my biological status may be cause for rejection or attack, nor will it cause my partner to question their sexual orientation.

          If I end up in the emergency room, I do not have to worry that one gender will keep me from receiving appropriate treatment, or that all of my medical issues will be seen as a result of my gender.

          My identity is not considered a mental pathology (“gender identity disorder” in the DSM IV) by the psychological and medical establishments.

          People don't speculate that my gender identity is a result of abuse or trauma.

          I have the ability to not worry about being placed in a sex-segregated detention center, holding facility, jail or prison that is incongruent with my identity.

          I can easily find role models and mentors to emulate who share my identity.

          Hollywood accurately depicts people of my gender in films and television, and does not solely make my identity the focus of a dramatic storyline, or the punchline for a joke.

          I will not be harassed by the police or denied services at a bank or other institution because my legal sex does not match my gender presentation.