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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (49 children)

And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

They won’t no matter what. And it is a shameful thing that should be kept a secret if you can. Stealth is your only chance at a normal life.

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

Yeah I know if you don’t care we are treated like wretches.

There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Because they are stealth. You don’t get a life as an out trans person. No one will love you. You will struggle to fine even mediocre employment. You will exist and noone will care of you live or die. Stealth people get lives. We get … existences. Shit this isn’t even about me. I don’t pass. But I want others who might be able to to have a shot at a life worth living.

Humans are social creatures and if you are treated like a freak by everyone you interact with it effects you.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

I disagree. Trans people don't "have everything [they] have" because they're pitiable, or because nontrans people consider them pathetic and can only respond with pity.

I'll use your ugly stray dog analogy since I have irl experience with that. I've volunteered for many years with a regional dog rescue npo known for taking in "hard cases" (abuse, neglect, complex medical issues). I guarantee you that pity doesn't stabilize a starving dog or see a dog through months of treatment for heartworm infection -- I've done that particular task several times. It's empathy for the dog, and recognition of its dignity as a sentient being. Those are very, very different things than pity.

Not to be invasive, but your language sounds clinically depressed and self-despising.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I do hate myself but that’s not the point.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It may not be the topical point, but I sincerely think it's affecting the way you're framing your assertions here. Your GD-influenced observations are subjectively real, certainly. But they can't constrain objective reality or reliably assign motive (e.g., pity) to others.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

Im sorry, Im not sure how to respond, the self loathing dripping in your comment is a bit overwhelming for me…

I always thought trans people were individuals with varied life experiences. I forgot you speak for all of the lived experiences of every trans person to ever exist. And none, none at all, not even quite a few of the out trans people that I know or have met personally, not even the openly trans celebrities, not even 1 individual out of the estimated 1.5 million- has ever been able to live a normal (again- what is normal?) life. They’re all just liars. And so are their partners and friends and children and families and coworkers and it’s all just one big conspiracy set up just so we can claim that it’s possible. Just to give false hope so people will keep transitioning and Big Pharma can rake in that dough and we can sterilize people for population control.

You want people to be able to- even feel like they should- lie to everyone in their lives. You want them to never actually experience being loved and accepted for who they are, not even by themselves. Think what you want about yourself but it’s so fucking wack to push that kind of life and mentality on an entire community. You could advocate for making the world a better place for all trans people, not just the ones who pass, but you’d rather disregard the majority for the few who have the chance to stealth? Because you think perpetuating the idea that concealing the truth from as many people as possible is the only way a trans person can be happy? I feel like I’d just spend my whole life wondering what would happen if someone found out, I’d be miserable and looking over my shoulder all the time. But what do I know, I guess.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (44 children)

You can disagree if you want but life sucks for out trans people. If you want happiness your shoot for stealth. Otherwise you transition to numb the pain of Dysphoria and deal with the fact that society will see you as a freak and noone will ever love you. That’s life for trans people. You hit the lotto and go stealth or you have a shitty life period. But it’s still better than the dysphoria.

It’s a journey to accept that we’d get there quicker without false hope. “Acceptance” won’t ever happen. We need protections because people hate us and we need facilities access. But lying to us about hope and singing Kumbiah isn’t going to help anyone.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can disagree if you want but life sucks for out trans people. If you want happiness your shoot for stealth. Otherwise you transition to numb the pain of Dysphoria and deal with the fact that society will see you as a freak and noone will ever love you. That’s life for trans people. You hit the lotto and go stealth or you have a shitty life period.

Huh? Jan Morris, who went trans in midlife in the early 70s after fathering 5 children & died in November at age 94, said that nothing untoward happened to Jan coz of being trans & out. Morris got a best-selling book & many awards out of being trans. Jan's wife who married Jan as James stayed with Jan to the end of Jan's life, raised their children single-handedly & was handmaiden to all of Jan's career & personal ambitions.

Renee Richards, who went trans age 43 in the early 70s after being married to a woman & fathering a child & is now 88, seems to have lived a happy, fulfilled life since then. In 1975, Richards sued for the right to play women's professional tennis - & won right off the bat.

Jennifer Finney Boylan, now age 63, has only gotten accolades, awards, writing gigs, a column in the NY Times & tenure at an Ivy League US university since becoming openly trans. Boylan's wife from before Boylan went trans, & the mother of their two children, also has stuck by Boylan & been Boylan's primary support throughout. But Boylan's wife has always done Boylan's bidding by never daring to put herself or her own dreams or ambitions on equal footing with her trans spouse.

Debbie Hayton's wife & children have stuck by Hayton, putting their own feelings aside so as not to interfere with Hayton's brave & stunning narrative.

The NY Times recently profiled a person who lived until 60 as a man & who in COVID lockdown came out as a trans woman. The reaction from this person's employer was a major promotion - & applause & support from everyone else in this person's social & professional circles.

I could list dozens of others like this. You are talking shite.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

You have no concept of life for the average trans women.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I provided examples of specific people whose life stories can be looked up for anyone to see. I can provide the names of many more "trans women" who have not been relegated to "shitty lives" where no one loves them coz they are trans. On the contrary, these persons have been supported by their wives, children, parents, friends, work colleagues; applauded; showered with praise; catapulted into positions of power & influence; & described in the press as superior, more enlightened & "divine" beings who exist on a plane above the rest of us - all for coming out as "trans women."

By contrast, all you do is make blanket assertions with no evidence. Provide some examples, please.

Also, you seem to have no concept of what life is like for the average woman.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)


I’ll be sure to inform the people i referenced that they are lying to themselves and are in fact not happy and doing well, that everyone in their lives that they think love and care for them are pretending out of pity, and that they are in fact drab sacks of misery and should adjust accordingly.

Im sure they’ll be confused at first, but its best to inform them now so they can figure out how to be unhappy.

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You really need to move. I live in a liberal college town in a red state and I know literally dozens of trans-umbrella people, who are out and proud, have jobs and active social lives and in quite a few cases partners and children. Their lives are fine.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

No, they aren’t. They pretend it is but no one can be happy or normal being an out trans person. It’s a shit life.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Lmao you don’t even know these people, how are you an authority on their lives?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Because thats life for trans people.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

That should be your flair lol

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

I actually worked with an out transwoman who was living as far as I could tell a very normal life hanging out with us outside of work too just like any other run of the mill person. He was visibly and behaviorally male, but decently androgynous. The key was that he respected my boundaries so we got along just fine. In person I would refer to him as she out of courtesy, much in the same way I avoid using the Lord's name in vain when I'm hanging out with Christians, but when I'm no longer in Christian company the Lord's name gets quite a thrashing.

I've also worked with a transman that was clearly female at first glance. She was also living a normal life just like any other coworker going out and hanging out with friends in her free time. My coworkers gave me a quiet heads up that she was trans so I could make sure to refer to her as "he" to avoid upsetting her. That's generally what happens for trans people who don't pass in the workplace at least. Their coworkers discretely give the new hire a heads up and more often than not out of courtesy they go along with it like I did out of politeness more than anything. It was a bit awkward at first, because forcing my brain to refer to a woman as he took some extra effort like saying the color of a word out loud when it says a different color.

Weird becomes normal if you're exposed to it enough times. I grew up under a conservative religious rock and didn't know about gay people until I was a teenager. My first thought was wait that's an option? Now it's just normal to me. A dude talks about his husband and I react the same way as if he was talking about his wife. You meet enough gay people and it just becomes a meh fact about them like their hair color. That's how gay people got more acceptance they came out of the closet, so society saw that they were boring run of the mill people like the rest of us with one small difference. It's hard to hate gay people when you find out Uncle Joe is gay and Aunt Lydia is a lesbian and so on.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (33 children)

Right there. You are talking about people you seem to have had cordial relationships with and you misgender them, call them religious, and all but say you only referred to them as who they are to their face because of pity.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Not pity, but politeness. I think Christianity is bullshit. Playing along to some of their social mores when I am in Christian company isn't pity it's a social nicety. I don't swear around people who don't like swear words either. Many smokers respect nonsmokers by not smoking around them or asking if they mind first, not out of pity just basic human empathy and politeness and as a nonsmoker who really hates smoke I really appreciate the courtesy.

I believe that transgenderism is bullshit too. I'm an empiricist, I don't believe in gods, gender souls, or regular run of the mill religious souls. I don't hate trans people, I don't pity them, I just disagree with them. I don't believe using the Lord's name in vain is wrong, but many Christians do. I don't believe misgendering is wrong, but many trans people do. So out of social nicety I change my behavior depending on who I am with. It would be a dick move for me to walk into a church and yell "God doesn't exist!". I wouldn't walk into a transwomen social gathering and shout "transwomen are men". That would just be rude, both groups have a right to believe what they believe and form social groups where they embrace that.

You don't have a right to force nonbelievers to adhere to every tenet of your personal belief system especially when you aren't present. It would be batty to demand that all atheists/unbelievers in the country never use the Lord's name in vain ever, because that hurts Christian's feelings. It is equally batty to demand that every gender atheist in the country never misgender any transgender person ever. What the trans movement is essentially advocating for is forced belief/forced religion and that is not okay. It is extraordinarily entitled. I also have the right to believe what I believe and hang out with people who have similar beliefs just like transgender people and I don't believe men can be women and vice versa. Christians have failed to convince me that their religion is the one true way. Transgender ideologues have failed to convince me that men can be women magically somehow. Thems the rocks.

Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. Freedom of belief includes freedom from belief. It's not personal, we just have very different belief systems. There will always be unbelievers, you will have to find a way to cope with that. Christians(Insert any other powerful religion here) have to be forced every now and again to stop forcing their subjective faith based beliefs on the rest of society, trans people will have to learn that the hard way too it seems.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (31 children)

Being trans isn’t a religion. Dysphoria is like any other medical condition. Transition treats it. Being called a man is a deeply insulting term to me. In fact there are maybe 2 or 3 things in all the possible insults that would bother me more. But it isn’t a religious question. At most it’s a semantic one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (20 children)

If transition treats it, shouldn’t being called a man not be upsetting to you?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (19 children)

I said treat not cure.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

…Sure, fair enough

But if you think it’s that deep of an insult, if it upsets you to the core, it just doesn’t seem like you’ve done anything (or enough, to be fair) to work through why you associate “man/men” with what you associate it with. You feel more comfortable in your body and less suicidal/depressed, but you still clearly have deep seated issues somewhere related to sex/gender, just based on your perception of men and women and what types of people each are.

So… does that just not ever get dealt with?

Because any effective- even just competent- treatment (not cure) surely would include unpacking that.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It is a faith based belief question, especially since trans activists are demanding that biological men be treated as though they were women. It is impossible for a male person to know what it feels like to be a female person unless someone believes in something similar to a soul separate from the body (innate gender identity). A belief in something innate separate from the body has 1,000s of years of religious history. The only difference between a transwoman and any other man from a nonbeliever's perspective is that one man claims to be a woman and one does not. Physically they are indistinguishable. A man who has 'transitioned' is just a man who got some body modifications. There are men who have transitioned who believe they are still men. Is there an objective way to verify which male bodied people are actually women on the inside and which ones are not other than just taking their word for it?

I respect that it is a deeply felt personal belief hence my willingness to engage in some social niceties while engaging with trans identified individuals in real life, but I'm not willing to do more than that. My rights, my beliefs, my boundaries and my consent matters too.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (7 children)

It is a faith based belief question, especially since trans activists are demanding that biological men be treated as though they were women.

No it isn’t. It’s semantic or taxonomic. It has nothing to do with faith. The “trans is religion” thing is a full on gaslighting campaign and nothing less.

Challenge the assertions if you wish but calling it a religion is simply disingenuous.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If a woman is not an adult human female, then what is a woman? If you're a woman then what am I? I don't have an internal sense of gender, so does that mean I'm not a woman?

Is there an objective way to prove that some male bodied people are actually women on the inside? Is there an objective independently verifiable way to measure gender identity? If not, it is a subjective faith based belief and should be treated as such.

I think the comparison to religion is quite apt, many trans activist arguments & claims are so similar to religious arguments & claims that they may as well be twins. Really I'm getting deja vu from my freshly minted apostate days.

Pseudoreligion: Belief or philosophy with certain aspects of religion (a founder, a principal text, faith-based beliefs, etc.).

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Dysphoria is like any other medical condition.

Being convinced that a perfectly normal body is "wrong" based on literally nothing isn't "just like any other medical condition". The idea of "gender" as some kind of a soul compelling you to get plastic surgeries and amputations as well as hormones not meant for your body, and demanding that this be treated as factual to the point of science having to adapt to it despite contrary evidence and women's human rights having to be sacrificed for it is similar to a religion. It also relies on (in many ways similarly religious) patriarchal ideas that are objectively damaging to society.

Transition treats it.

Clearly not, since it still requires everyone around them to lie that the trans person is something they're not, or else the trans person gets a mental breakdown. Transition might make it easier to fool people into believing a lie, but successfully making someone or even most people believe a lie doesn't make it true (again, similar to religion), hence why trans people are in constant fear of the truth coming out. Ultimately they themselves don't seem to believe in what they preach because reality simply doesn't allow for magical sex transformations, and that's a hard pill to swallow when you have a mental illness telling you you should be something that you biologically simply can't. And the fact that you can't isn't the fault of feminists, or the medical community, or society not wanting to use one's preferred pronouns. No-one is to blame for reality being the way it is.

Being called a man is a deeply insulting term to me.

So is calling God's name in vain for many Christians. Things being insulting to someone does not make them wrong solely on that one basis, otherwise we'd still be arguing over whether the Earth is spherical or whether evolution exists.

it isn’t a religious question. At most it’s a semantic one.

Some Christians have tried to make evolution seem like it's all about semantics. At some point, though, no amount of mental gymnastics can turn reality into something that goes contrary to observation. If it is your religious belief that a man is a woman because he says so, I will reject that and go with the biological reality that has been understood and scientifically studied for a very long time.