Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Trans identified peaple are not going to achieve acceptance by forcing their beliefs on everyone else.

Third spaces could be for single use too. Trans identified people could fight for those, as long there are still single sex spaces. And don't give me "that won't ever happen because the nobody cares about trans people" excuse when there are in fact lots and lots of people bending backwards over whatever transactivists demand. Years ago, the nude man of Wi Spa would have been kicked out of the women's section without questions immediately. This is the result of the trans lobby.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (16 children)

That’s literally the only way to achieve acceptance. Everyone thinks we are freaks and deviants. You want everyone to keep thinking that. We just want to be thought of as normal. And that will take pushing.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Keep forcing your beliefs on everyone else, dismantling single-sex spaces, ingnoring everyone else's boundaries, sending death and rape threaths to dissenting women, treating anyone who questions the official narrative as nazis, advocating for the medical abuse of chidren, using people with DSDs as gotchas, treating desisters and detransitioners like shit, saying a lot of racist things to justify your beliefs, advocating for men playing against women in sports, excusing sexual predators, putting men -even ones convicted of violence against women and/or rape- in women's prisons, rewriting history, changing the meanings or words, denying biology, and censoring any wrongthought. If trans people keep doing that, I warrant you, sooner or later everyone will think trans are nothing but freaks or deviants. Transactivists have been changing laws and policies behind everyone's back, but this secretism cannot last much longer. Once more people wake up about what is happening, they won't be happy. This simply is not way of achieving acceptance. What transactivists are aiming for, instead, is obedience.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (14 children)

Your red string is showing. But whatever. This is pointless. You want us to be freaks. I want to live a normal life. There isn’t a balance.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You're the one who thinks you're a freak and assumes everyone else want to put trans identified people in a circus display as freaks. What I'm saying is that if you want acceptance, then you should be more worried about transactivists than "T*RFs" and regular males. Because transactivists won't bring you acceptance.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (12 children)

You're the one who thinks you're a freak and assumes everyone else want to put trans identified people in a circus display as freaks.

That’s what you are pushing for. Making transition as costly and delayed as possible to make sure as few people as possible pass. Making it so stealth is impossible and we are all plain to be laughed at and have nowhere safe to go. It’s at least the logical extension of what you push for.

You are arguing daily we are predatory monsters and perverts instead of just people. Men kill us. You excite them, they do violence. That’s why we are afraid.

Because transactivists won't bring you acceptance.

At least they are trying. You want us as Quasimodo monsters to laugh at.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Look, I get it. You hate yourself and, therefore, it's hard for you to believe everyone else don't see you as a freak to get laughed at. But none of us here called you that, and I just added that transactivists aren't going to bring you the acceptance you're looking for.

We are not exciting anyone to harm you. Sexist and homophobic men (i.e. the kind of men more likely to attack trans identified males) don't listen to women. It's absurd to blame us for whatever violence they commit.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

You and the large gc names are the primary movers blanketing the Internet with awful arguments against us. You constantly pump new hatred into the system that works against us.

You are the reason people thing we are perverted predators that are on the hunt for their children. You foment hatred and men react to that feeling with violence.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, so am I one of the big players in the culture wars? Yeah, like I'm a not an activist and I live in a completely different country, but I'm sure arguing in this forgotten corner of the internet is a major force driving all the hate for trans people. After all, my posts have way more reach that the mainstream media who keep pushing TRA propaganda with all the approved "inclusive" language. Like, even the news sorces that are willing to publish articles critical of transgenderism are mostly using "prefered pronouns" because trans are "the most oppressed" (nevermind, trans, in fact, have been far more successful in achieving their goals than any other marginalized group in history despite transsexualism and trangerderism being a very new development). But, yes, me plainly explaining how there are only two sexes, how humans cannot change their sexes, and how sex does matter is literally "killing" hundreds of trans people! How couldn't I realized this "fact" before?! And all those sexist and homophobic men, who won't listen to me if I said porn is trash, will suddenly go in a trans killing spree as soon as I evily declare: "trans women" are actually men, you fools!

Seriously, though, we're not making up all those stories involving perverts. If the trans community don't want to be perceived as perverts, they should kick the perverts out instead of defending them. You've make this thread all about yourself and how you don't have facilities for you (but don't want third spaces because they will out trans people), when this thread was started because a nude man with his intact genitals went into the female section of a spa. And he is being painted as the victim, and not all the women and girls who didn't consent to this. And he could do that because of stupid laws pushed by the TRAns lobby, that want we ignore all we know about biology. As I said, if you don't like all trans people being treated as perverts, then you should be more worried about those activists than the "mean T*RFs".

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You want us as Quasimodo monsters to laugh at.

Circling, do you honestly believe that? You're a human being, not a monster or a freak. So you don't pass as female. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It's been a long time since we talked, but are you in a space where you have other trans friends and acceptance from your community? I have this idea of you being in a more conservative environment. If that's true, maybe it would be good for you to move, if possible. It's 2021 and trans people in most parts of the USA are faring much better than they did 20 or 30 years ago.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

Circling, do you honestly believe that?

I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t.

If transition is prohibitively expensive it prevents transition. Reducing the already slim odds trans women have to pass. And that’s ignoring the ones arguing to ban transition entirely.

So you make us as physically obvious as possible then ensure we can’t update records so we are subject to prejudice even without personal exposure in every review of a file.

You want us to not have access to safe facilities that exist ensuring we are in danger or must cloister somehow.

The logical extension of what you argue for is making us as subject to derision and abuse as possible, even if that isn’t your motive.

Moving isn’t an option but yes I am in a donervative area.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

But haven't you already transitioned? No one's trying to stop you from accessing hormones, are they?

I don't agree with GC people who want to ban transition. I think that's very uncommon, to be honest. Most GC people really don't care what adults do to their bodies. We may not think it's ideal depending on the circumstance, but it's not our bodies in question. You're a grown adult and can make your own choices. If this is what you feel you need to do, then I have no quarrel with it.

You want us to not have access to safe facilities that exist ensuring we are in danger or must cloister somehow.

I can't think of any GC person who would be against protected third spaces. I'm sure we've talked about that before. I'd be in favor of a law like the ADA requiring facilities to build gender-neutral spaces. And that would benefit not only non-passing trans people, but also families, caregivers, and GNC people who may otherwise feel uncomfortable in sex-specific restrooms and locker rooms.

By the way, I also live in a conservative area, and there's a trans woman here who works at one of the local "hipster" restaurants. I've seen her about 3 times. She doesn't pass well, but she has a public-facing job and presumably has not only employers, but also friends and family who accept her. Just because you live in a conservative place doesn't mean you're doomed to a life of despair. Even in conservative areas, progress is happening.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

But haven't you already transitioned? No one's trying to stop you from accessing hormones, are they?

I mean I still need hormones but I’m talking about for others.

I don't agree with GC people who want to ban transition. I think that's very uncommon, to be honest. Most GC people really don't care what adults do to their bodies. We may not think it's ideal depending on the circumstance, but it's not our bodies in question. You're a grown adult and can make your own choices. If this is what you feel you need to do, then I have no quarrel with it.

Most at least want a de facto ban. The “this is cosmetic and insurance shouldn’t pay for it” is essentially a ban. Nobody has 40k free cash.

I can't think of any GC person who would be against protected third spaces. I'm sure we've talked about that before. I'd be in favor of a law like the ADA requiring facilities to build gender-neutral spaces. And that would benefit not only non-passing trans people, but also families, caregivers, and GNC people who may otherwise feel uncomfortable in sex-specific restrooms and locker rooms.

More neutral spaces by mandate is much my preference. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable or be unsafe.