Both: Are sexual stereotypes about men and women in the bedroom true?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

In your personal experience, are sexual stereotypes in the bedroom true? This would be the stereotype that men are sexually dominant and women are sexually submissive and passive by nature. In other words, that men are actors and women are merely acted upon.

I was having a discussion on another thread with u/theory_of_this and he mentioned his belief about women's sexuality.

Their pleasure is from being the “target,” the “prize,” the figure of maximum desire. That IS their sexual pleasure.

If you are a natal female, is that how you experience your own sexuality? If you're someone who is attracted to women, is that how you've experienced sex with your female partners?

Is it unusual, in your experience, to find a woman with an active sexuality? And do you think this is affected at all by sexual orientation or gender identification? Are trans people more likely to fit the opposite-sex stereotype?

What are your thoughts?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

No, these facile, simplistic, sexist, misogynistic stereotypes are not true in my experience.

ETA: the stereotypes being presented as the norm here exclude the possibility of mutuality. They depict human sexuality only in terms of power relations. The idea that males are active & females are passive - & that one partner must be a dom, the other must be a sub - is not reflective of many/a majority of IRL relationships & encounters.

[–]worried19[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Thanks for the reply. I find your perspective valuable because I know you came of age during the 70s and 80s, so you got to experience having male lovers before they were corrupted en masse by kink and porn culture.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, it was a different world entirely. I often think that women of my generation lived our earlier lives in a rare "golden age." Not that it was really a golden age by objective standards, just that it was so much better than the misogynistic, porn-soaked, abusive shit show that you younger women face today.

I started having sexual encounters with boys when I was 13 in 1967. These encounters consisted of hours-long sessions of "making out" (kissing progressing to "French kissing"), "petting" or "feeling up," frottage & eventually the boys sticking their hands in my pants & fingering my clit until I came.

I engaged in this sort of activity for several years without any one of my nice, kind, decent, respectful BFs ever putting my hand on his dick, exposing his dick to me, asking me to give him a hand job or blow job, pressuring me to have PIV, or demanding or encouraging me to disrobe.

I didn't have PIV until I was 16, & I did so with a boy/young man 18 months older whom I loved & who loved me & who treated me like a goddess (actually too much so). We didn't get involved until I was 15, but he says he instantly fell in love with me the first time he saw me when he was 13/14 & I was 12. (I know this because now that I've entered the stage of life where my principal orientation is "retrosexual," he & I have been in close contact & talking a lot about what happened between us many decades ago.)

I don't recall any of the men that I & my same-age friends dated & married asking us to give them blow jobs until the mid-late 1980s - & when they did ask back then, they didn't demand. In the 80s & 90s, males were grateful to get blow jobs from women. And the vast majority of "regular" het guys back then most certainly did not expect women to let them penetrate us anally. The very idea was outside the Overton window.

As to the claim that women's sexual

pleasure is from being the “target,” the “prize,” the figure of maximum desire. That IS their sexual pleasure.

I can only say that I have often experienced the pleasure of being the target, prize & figure of another person's sexual desire, but that is not the sole or main source of my or other women's pleasure. Rather, it's incidental. The pleasure of being desired by another person is small potatoes compared to the sexual pleasure that comes [sic,LOL] from the female ability to orgasm.

Also, although I am not an overt sexual aggressor, from my early teens on I often set my sights on a particular boy or man who caught my fancy & I pursued him. Usually with success.

I've also been in a relationship where I had more of a desire for sex than my male partner did.

But in general, reducing all sexual encounters to dom & sub doesn't jibe with my own experience or the reality of most people I know. Most het women who've felt free to express themselves sexually have enjoyed straddling men in the "on top" position as much as being fucked missionary or doggie style.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It sure does seem like a different world. By the time I was in my early teens, blowjobs were completely standard. Although I would hope that most decent guys don't actually ask for them, I bet a lot of girls and young women feel pressured to give them. I personally very much enjoy giving oral sex, but I have a serious aversion to the types of painful, degrading blowjobs that have been depicted in porn. Mutual and pleasurable oral exploration is quite different in my book.

Did men perform oral sex on women back then, or was that similarly more unusual? Did it seem as though men were invested in women's orgasms? I wonder how many girls nowadays have the experience of young teenage boys actually bringing them to orgasm through manual stimulation like that. I would assume not many.

Rather, it's incidental.

That's how I feel about it. I enjoy when my partner looks at me with lust and desire, of course, but my pleasure revolves around the entire sexual experience, physical, mental, and emotional.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Did men perform oral sex on women back then, or was that similarly more unusual?

IME & the experience of women around my same age, men in the 70s, 80s, 90s & 2000s were very much into performing oral sex on women. Women often were the ones saying, "no thank you, not tonight."

Did it seem as though men were invested in women's orgasms?

Yes, very much so. Boys & men took pride in this & often bragged about it to others of their own sex.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wish I could go back in time to the 70s. I feel like there must have been such a sense of hope about feminism back then. That there was this unlimited potential for things to get better for women. It's sad to know that things that regressed so dramatically since then, sexually and otherwise.

[–]Vulptex 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I have never seen porn in my life. I don't desire sex in general but if I had it I could not stand the dominant role, but I could probably enjoy the submissive one if I were able to ignore the gross sexual aspect. This is entirely natural for me. Though I've never met another male who feels the same way.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

What about sex that doesn't involve BDSM? There don't have to be dominant or submissive roles.

What do you mean by "gross sexual aspect?"

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I don't like seeing others' private parts, and I don't want my penis touching another person let alone inside of one of the grossest parts of them. Having sex with someone would be both boring and gross to me.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Fair enough. Since you're asexual, I can't imagine you would enjoy it nor should you feel pressured to engage in anything you don't want to do.

But just so you know, it doesn't have to involve BDSM. I've never had sex where a power dynamic was involved.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That's the only way I could like it. Though I would still prefer there not to be any sex, or even nudity.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Why would you like that? You want people to control you or treat you badly?

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I would love to be kidnapped by a woman (unless she's ugly). You know about as much as I do as to why. No sexual acts, no nudity, those gross me out.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think it's related to some sort of trauma?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Lol, nope. Not surprised some dude thinks he knows the sexuality of all women better than themselves. Dude literally describes himself as a gender essentialist. He believes modern western gender norms are an innate feature of human sexuality. Might as well just wear a tin foil hat.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I think he's right though. People in all cultures follow gender norms to a T, with the exception of people who have mental disorders. Brain scans can determine someone's sex with 95% accuracy unless they're autistic. Humans are both very highly sexually dimorphic and extremely collective, meaning members of the same tribe or clan will all be almost exactly the same. So nearly all the female humans will be one way and nearly all the male humans will be another. I say this because I am one of the very few exceptions and it's annoying seeing how stereotypical and group-minded other people are. It affects how they view me as well, and as accurately as it works on most others it's unfair to me.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Congrats on not being like the other girls.

[–]Vulptex 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

I'm male. Unfortunately, considering how much nature disregards me for that reason in favor of the female.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Lol, no idea what that means but mkay. Have fun with that.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Women have it a lot better than men because nature, their own bodies, and society all consider them inherently valuable. Men are only allowed to exist so much as they benefit women, and are highly replaceable to the species. I don't know of a single male trait that's actually beneficial to him except for a lack of breasts and periods. And physical strength, but that's seldom useful and usually not fun.

[–]BiologyIsReal[M] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you have any to contribute to this sub or are you here only to post MRA nonsense that women have it muchhhh better than the "poor" men?

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think everyone has it hard but "benevolent" sexism is still sexism, and from my research women are much better off internally than men due to their brain chemistry and such. Externally it used to be about the same, now we've solved sexism against women but done nothing for and even encouraged sexism against men. Certainly from my perspective if I were born opposite I'd be much better off, though I admit some people might be the opposite as there are a few things men might have an easier time with. But nothing I'm interested in, and it's only hampered me.

MRA is not sexism. It's for equality. It seeks to get rid of both hostile and benevolent sexism to make things better for both sides. Caring about men does not make you against women, I find myself fighting real sexists all the time and hate that just as much. We act like they're mutually exclusive and they're not.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hahahahaha ok, wrong but ok buddy. MRA, incel, or both.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not true at all. If a man wants to be 'dominant' I wouldn't touch him with 10 foot pole. When I think of dominants I think of abusive sad pathetic little men who only have an inkling chance with women who have very low self esteem.

This concept is very hard for the average man to grasp, but women are human beings. We have desires, we have fantasies that are completely independent of men's desires or fantasies. Men who don't know this are shit in bed guaranteed.

As for 'maximum desire', I don't want to be desired by people I find repulsive. Being groped, being followed, disgusting sexual comments made about my body, cornered, threatened and coerced, none of that shit is sexy. I feel a hot seething rage when dealing with every single one of those pieces of shit.

[–]worried19[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel the same. Dominance is a very unattractive trait in any aspect of life, including during sex. And I don't get wanting to be an object of desire to men in general. That sounds like a nightmare. I would expect my partner to desire me, but that's not the source of my pleasure. And of course that also goes for men. It's a two-way street. The whole point of being lovers is that you're supposed to desire each other.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Good rule of thumb to live by: Everything men say about women is a projection. And yeah, I think men are the ones obsessed with how much they are dEsiReD.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good point. Many men go to pieces when they think women no longer desire them. They feel entitled to have women want them.

[–]worried19[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I take exception to this categorization. I may not be typical, but I don't define my sexuality this way, and these stereotypes are not true of my male partner either. I have desires of my own. I am no object. I think there's more to human sexuality than tired gendered stereotypes. Society has moved on. We're not stuck in the old days when proper women were just supposed to lie on their backs and do nothing. I very seriously question whether that is any woman's true desire.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

No, not even close. I’m not female obviously, but had female friends who I’ve discussed these things with. There isn’t like one way of being with your boyfriend/husband and plenty of women are the more active partner sexually (I don’t really like the word dominant). I feel like very few would fit the stereotype of being totally passive.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

That's my feeling. People's personalities don't disappear just because they take their clothes off and get into bed together.

As a transsexual, did you ever feel that you had a more female-typical sexuality in any way? I'm sure the stereotype for HSTS would be that they are sexually receptive and would not desire to use their penises for penetration. Which I assume would be true more for reasons of dysphoria than any innate desire to be submissive the way BDSM practitioners think of it.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

As a transsexual, did you ever feel that you had a more female-typical sexuality in any way?

Probably... I don’t want to stereotype female sexuality, but I feel like I have a lot in common with my friends (female) and it’s hard for me too imagine I’d have much in common with (most) men that way. I don’t think HSTS sexuality is exactly female sexuality though because I’ve just been told it isn’t, but I haven’t notice too many differences. The one thing I can think of is that I’m more into masculine men than some of my friends, some are more like me, but it matters more to me than most if that makes sense. Scrawny men or like super boyish looks don’t really do too much for me, but some women and girls are very attracted to those guys.

I am sexually receptive (if that is what we calling enjoying being penetrated lol) and never used my original parts to do that or masturbate when I had those parts. It wasn’t something I wanted and I feel like it would have been really upsetting. I feel like you can still be active though even if you are receptive, just in different ways. I feel like even that way society teaches us to think about it makes it where the man is always the active one, but it’s not true.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's interesting. Do you think other transsexual women also have a preference for more masculine men? I wonder if that could be because of a desire to not see similarities between yourself and another member of your natal sex, even subconsciously.

I am sexually receptive (if that is what we calling enjoying being penetrated lol)

I agree. I don't really like that terminology either. You can 100% be an active and leading partner while "receiving" penetration, male or female. Society chooses to see heterosexual intercourse as the male penetrating the female rather than the female enveloping the male. I think it reinforces problematic stereotypes. But the act itself doesn't have to be framed that way.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think other transsexual women also have a preference for more masculine men? I wonder if that could be because of a desire to not see similarities between yourself and another member of your natal sex, even subconsciously.

That’s an interesting thought! I feel like (male) HSTS might have similar preferences in men. I was briefly on Tailcalled’s discord a few years ago and they would ask us to rate male attractiveness sometimes (for data lol) and it felt like the few of us that were there all preferred the same (more masculine) type. Your idea makes sense, but I feel like I couldn’t possibly know. Presumably, it be stronger with more male appearing TW and, at least for HSTS, it’s just seemed like universal (of that small group at least).

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Speaking of which, where is u/tailcalled? I thought for sure they had posted here in the past, but I can't find their profile. Looks like they're active over on Reddit, though.

Presumably, it be stronger with more male appearing TW and, at least for HSTS, it’s just seemed like universal (of that small group at least).

Interesting for sure. I also prefer a more masculine outer appearance. Scrawny doesn't do it for me. Boyish is fine up to a point, but not as in underage looking. However, I'm not looking for any pronounced physical differences in regards to height or strength.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

I am sexually receptive (if that is what we calling enjoying being penetrated lol)

You're into anal sex. Don't compare that to having women's genitalia.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Don't compare that to having women's genitalia.

I don’t think that I was.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

You are saying you enjoy anal sex in the context of similarities to female sexuality. Anuses are not female genitalia, nor comparable to female genitalia in any way just because men can put their dicks in them. Gay men who engage in receptive anal sex are comparable to other gay men who do the same, not to women.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

So, the first paragraph was more the one about my sexuality being like female sexuality, but even then I didn’t say it was exactly the same. I couldn’t know that because I’m not female, but I just feel like I have a lot in common with my friends. It’s just trying to compare what we like.

I don’t know why you are so stuck on anal sex. I rarely have anal sex and it’s not the only way I can be penetrated. Hopefully I don’t have to spell this out for you, but there is another option and it usually feels better anyway.

I’m not sure why I upset you so much, but you alway seem extremely hostile to me and attempt to take my words in the worst possible way. My comment had been here for most of a month and no other GC women though I was saying what you thought I was saying.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I don’t know why you are so stuck on anal sex.

Because I consistently see male trans people and gay men use it to imply that it gives them an understanding of female sexuality, or makes them more like "girls". It is a common fetish in gay and trans communities, and it slips into serious claims that then get used in activism. The obviously faulty notion that being penetrated makes one a woman is pretty ubiquitous in our culture and this gets used against women all the time, to pressure them into penetrative sex, to define them as submissive because of it and for men to get off to these ideas.

you always seem extremely hostile to me and attempt to take my words in the worst possible way.

I take these statements in ways I consistently see them used. I do despise the logic they employ, but if you don't stand by them, then I don't take issue with you personally.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Because I consistently see male trans people and gay men use it to imply that it gives them an understanding of female sexuality, or makes them more like "girls".

I would engage with someone who believes that then.

I do despise the logic they employ, but if you don't stand by them, then I don't take issue with you personally.

Everything I said was consistent with my original comment.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I would engage with someone who believes that then.

I engage with anyone who makes claims consistent with that. People claiming they believe or don't believe something independent of their claims is 100% irrelevant to me.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I was also the one who brought it up in the first place.

I'm sure the stereotype for HSTS would be that they are sexually receptive and would not desire to use their penises for penetration.

Which I then went on to speculate is a symptom of dysphoria, an aversion to penetrating because having a penis makes them dysphoric. Different from gay men who are receptive partners because they prefer the physical sensation and also different from natal women who do not have a penis to penetrate with.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

The problem is the idea that being penetrated is in any way indicative of femininity, and worse yet, that anal penetration is in any way comparable to having a vagina. These ideas get used against women all the time, now to the point of arguing against out very existence.

I've never experienced or cared for penetration, because the anatomical centre of my arousal is on the outside, as it is in all people. A lot of lesbians are the same way because they have the luxury of not defining themselves (entirely) according to men's preferences. For straight women, this isn't really an option because they're made to believe penetration is obligatory and the only possible way for them to have sex, regardless of their difficulties, sexual enjoyment, misogynistic perceptions of the act, risks and even health complications.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Peaking didn't bring it up, though, I did. And I also stated I don't believe being penetrated is an indication of femininity. Plenty of masculine men like having things up their ass, straight and gay alike.

For straight women, this isn't really an option because they're made to believe penetration is obligatory and the only possible way for them to have sex, regardless of their difficulties, sexual enjoyment, risks and even health complications.

Or you know, maybe some of us do genuinely enjoy our vaginas being penetrated by penises. I think it feels fantastic. There's no problem if any woman doesn't like it, regardless of her sexual orientation. It doesn't make her any more or less female. Women are women regardless of how they like having sex.

[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

A male cross-dresser is far from being an authority on female sexuality, and theory usually miss the point of what he is told in this sub to suit his own ideas about essentialism.

I find off-putting men who think women are a prize to win over. I don't want to be anyone's sex toy.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

A male cross-dresser is far from being an authority on female sexuality, and theory usually miss the point of what he is told in this sub to suit his own ideas about essentialism.

I find off-putting men who think women are a prize to win over. I don't want to be anyone's sex toy.

OK lets chat about it here.

Do you think straight men and women on average have the same sexuality? Similar fantasies, behaviour, pleasures?

Do you think men on average find femininity erotic? Do you think women on average find masculinity erotic?

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

As I said in the other thread, you have very black and white view of human relationships. You think men are naturally dominant and women naturally sumissive, and that abuse is just "erotic play". You think that a tiny minority of the population may prefere the opposite role, but they still conform to the idea that abuse is erotic and desirable and normal.

I don't think women are nauturally sumissive. Sumission is just a survivorship strategy, a way a aggressor more powerfull than you don't hurt you... Or at least a way you hope they don't hurt you that much. Anyone, including men, could act sumissive if the situation requires it. Like, for example, a robery done by thieves armed with fire weapons. Some people might fight back, but many won't resist and will do do as they are told. If you find yourself in a situation where you need to act this way a lot, you may come to view this behaviour as a part of you, like for instance, in slavery.

Women often find themselves in a sumissive position because men are physically stronger and because men are the ones who hold and have hold the political and economical power. I'm sure other users here could explain more eloquently and with more details than I could all the ways this works. Though, I can say the widespread use of pornography that has been happening in the last years has made a lot to naturalise abuse in the bedroom. Also pimps, pornographers or just regular abusers have been trying hard to naturalise the abuse of women by men throught the "sex positive" movement.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I suggested there might be a bimodal relationship with aggression in people. That might have a sexual element.

There is overlap in that. I don't think all of sexuality is about power at all. It is also about other things. Physical appeal, personal connection, there is also gendered aspects which are appealing to people that are not to do with power. But people are prone to erotic elements of power. On a large scale extremes will be more visible.

Is that black and white?

Do you think competitions for power are something humans are liable to do? That a sex element of that is something is humans might fall into but is something that should always be avoided?

I do think society can be better. But I think there are limits.

I don't think sexualizing masculinity means necessarily sexualizing dominance. Even if it is related it is separate.

I don't think accepting a relationship between power and sex, or sexuality and gender, means endorsing all of sex positivity, pornography, sex work and abuse.

When I debate here and say "I think straight women think x" it's because I see huge difference between what the women of gc here think and what I see in the wider world.

I don't think all the women enjoying popular erotic fiction with strong gender norms within a fantasy or enjoying mild sex games are broken women with no agency. That's taken as me endorsing extreme libertarian misogyny.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think women and men could choose not to be neither the sumissive or the dominant one in a relationship? I other words, do you think a relationship could not be based in power plays? Do you think someone can consent to abuse? Do you think abuse is erotic and desirable? Do you think women must accept to be dominated by men because is "natural"?

BTW, there is no "sex work", only sexual slavery. "Sex work" is a euphemism used by pimps to normalise and, eventually, legalise prostitution.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think women and men could choose not to be neither the sumissive or the dominant one in a relationship?

Yes.

I do not think sex or relationships are entirely about erotic power relations.

I just think people are prone to eroticising power in mild or strong ways, often gendered.

It appears very common.

In other words, do you think a relationship could not be based in power plays?

Yes I think it can be based on equality or at least not driven by a strongly sex power games at all.

I think sexual attraction is based on a number of things. Physical attraction, personality but I don't think they are generally identical for men and women. I do think masculinity and femininity often play a role in sexuality. That being separate from power.

I do think non sexual power is likely always being negotiate in relationships. I don't think it's a thing that can be ignored.

Do you think someone can consent to abuse?

I find that too charged a question.

Do I think people are in abusive relationships? Yes. Do I think all consent is valid? No. People might consent to something that is wrong and illegal.

People have fantasises they do not want to come true. That does not make them bad broken people.

People have all kinds of fantasises, act out things in bedrooms without being terrible broken people.

For all that consumption of porn and erotic literature they are not broken on that level. They are in fact happy.

Do you think abuse is erotic and desirable?

I think do a lot of people find power erotic. We might think it wrong but it appears so common and a normal part of life.

It has to be carefully handled.

Do you think women must accept to be dominated by men because is "natural"?

No. Firmly not.

A tendency is not universal. An "is" is not an "ought."

I do think people need to be educated. Adults need to be aware of dangers of behaviours and be responsible caring lovers.

BTW, there is no "sex work", only sexual slavery. "Sex work" is a euphemism used by pimps to normalise and, eventually, legalise prostitution.

I recall hearing Julie Bindel on this she was saying there are women who are forced in to this activity and there are middle class women who are playing in some kind of recreation for kicks. I think there is truth in that. I don't think sex can be normalised as any other job because sex is so emotional and open to abuse. I don't think it a healthy form of relations.

I can see it's possibly therapeutic in places, maybe. I don't want to be the person telling women the can't sell sex either. But it's not something I think is mentally healthy, for everyone.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No one ever cared about abuse of men by women though. That's practically encouraged.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. It's so prevalent that I've started teasing ruqqus discord members about my "reversed" nature because they find it so triggering.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I am dominant by my nature, so it is clearly not true for me.

If we look at men who want "dominatrix", I am sure that it is not true for many men and women. Society want us to be like this, thought. The more patriarchal and conservative (or religious) society is - the more such ideas are promoted and often enforced.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wonder if it's less likely to manifest sexually in more conservative cultures because men oppress women openly there. They don't have to confine it to the bedroom.

I did read a study that said Democrats (who are allegedly lovers of equality) are more likely to be aroused by BDSM, while Republicans were more turned on by cheating. But our overall society is still very patriarchal, even if people try to hide it under the surface.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If we look at men who want "dominatrix", I am sure that it is not true for many men and women.

lol dominatrix has nothing to do with female dominance, it's just another fetish for men. Female dominance is more like what you'd see in lesbian relationships, i.e. not male-gazey shit that exists solely for male stimulation like everything else.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Are trans people ever more likely to fit the opposite sex stereotype? Usually their gendered behavioural trends totally undermine their self-identification.

It's not nature, since female animals can take on an active role. Anyone who has owned a pet knows that the female ones hump the male ones when they are in heat. It's only during copulation that the female is sexually submissive. Our culture's sex is based on the copulation model, despite most sexual encounters not being for the purpose of reproduction. It's the norm/average or the default, so in most instances the male will be in the active role, while the female is in a passive role. It's culture, not nature & is the opposite of ideal.

Sex can either be selfishly masturbatory, or selflessly masturbatory, or mutual, which is sort of a mixture between the aforementioned two. It can also be male-cantered or female-cantered. The norm is male-centred & selfishly masturbatory.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Are trans people ever more likely to fit the opposite sex stereotype? Usually their gendered behavioural trends totally undermine their self-identification.

Good question. A lot of natal male TRAs display male socialization when it comes to sex, hence you see jokes from the worst ones about "raping TERFs with their girldicks." But then there seem to be a segment who believe that sexual submissiveness makes one female, or that sexual submissiveness is the definition of being female. And some of them seem to have been inspired to transition from "sissy porn.' So they claim to be these submissive feminine beings, but their overall socialization is still full of male entitlement. Of course I'm not talking about all trans women here. But it's a noticeable feature of some, especially those who decide to identify as lesbian women.

It's only during copulation that the female is sexually submissive

Really not even then if you define submissiveness as a mindset rather than physical receptivity. And of course pointing to animals is a double-edged sword because we're not bees or clownfish or anything other than human, but hyenas are an interesting case. They're quite female dominant in all areas of life, including sex.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Anyone who has owned a pet knows that the female ones hump the male ones when they are in heat.

Oh yeah. I've had a few spayed female alphas who will hump the rest of the pack into submission as needed.

[–]adungitit 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

lmao I come back here and you're still arguing with a generic male troll who isn't even aligned with trans activism? What's next? Debating MRAs on whether women deserve equal employment? Debating if martial rape exists? If women should vote?

It's exhausting how feminist spaces so easily take the laziest imaginable baits that should be obvious from a mile away to anyone older than yesterday. Apparently explaining why the Earth is round to the millionth generic male misogynist is more important than actually debating trans activism.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Theory's not a troll. And crossdressing is obviously related to gender and somewhat trans adjacent.

I can appreciate you might not want to talk about these things with him, but I find them interesting to discuss, and it's not like we have any other place to talk about it since Reddit kicked us off. Our few male posters who are bio-essentialists or Blanchardians fit with being on the QT side, so I think we're still on topic.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

jfc these crossdressing men are just fetishists, they don't even have a coherent movement beyond typical male "I should wank to whatever I want" liberalism. Even if they did, none of what he says is ever even related to crossdressing or gender or trans anything. It's always the same copy-pasted redpill bs.

I can appreciate you might not want to talk about these things with him

Because they're unrelated and have nothing to do with the subject of this sub? Yeah, I don't want to talk to generic male trolls who want to derail any even slightly nuanced feminist discussion to their wanking which feminism 101 has addressed a bajillion times already. I don't give a fuck about convincing men that women have a sexuality, that we shouldn't be sexually assaulted, that we need jobs, that we deserve voting rights. You can go literally anywhere on the internet that's dominated by men if you want to have that discussion again.

I find them interesting to discuss

Go to any male-dominated community then? If the most generic misogynistic talking points make you scratch your head, you are not ready to engage in feminism in any meaningful capacity and really should educate yourself on the basics of the movement.

Our few male posters who are bio-essentialists or Blanchardians fit with being on the QT side

Because they're trans or trans activists and their ideas on gender are directly tied to that, and demonstrate trans attitudes about women. He doesn't fit any of this. He's just a typical dude wanking about redpill and bioessentialism. When he gets a response, he just tells women they're making it up because he's wanked to something. Wow, such intelligent discussion, let's make a whole thread for a generic rando man and all rush there to convince him that women exist beyond his dick and pretend like his points are sooo deep and unraveling the fabric of feminism itself, how very productive and totally not a waste of time that you can play out anywhere else.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No need to be so hostile. Just because I like talking to theory doesn't mean I'm some uneducated idiot. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If you are a natal female, is that how you experience your own sexuality?

Nope. And I can safely speak for some other female friends who share my experience. We are not "targets" or "prizes" and being regarded as such is inconsequential-to-off-putting. It's not a factor in our sexual dynamic.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for your reply. And yeah, it's definitely not a factor in mine. Being regarded as a "prize" is just plain dehumanizing.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Completely.

[–]anxietyaccount8 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Absolutely not.

Neither GC nor QT traditionally thinks that.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I know GC doesn't, but lots of QT people seem to.

The younger generation seems very corrupted by this mindset.

[–]anxietyaccount8 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I think there are some who have said shocking or attention-seeking things (like those social media posters who go "sissy porn made me trans, and I know TERFs are pissed") but even they have their nuances.

I think the view "if a woman isn't submissive, sweet and feminine then she's abnormal/has a hormone imbalance/etc" is so extreme that most QT don't believe it. That's something that conservatives and "race realists" think. I've never seen someone QT in the old Reddit sub say that.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems like more of a generational thing rather than something specifically linked to QT. I don't think most liberal feminists take it to the extreme of saying that non-submissive women are abnormal, though.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

I agree both GC and QT traditionally espouse absolute gender equality in theory.

In practice I think most straight GC and QT advocating people act on gender norms to some degree in regards to sexual behaviour and fantasy.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In many cases QT are relying on those stereotypes to be true.

I saw more than dozen 50+ years old new-wave bisexual TW who transitioned "because I like being more submissive" and "womanhood is defined by wanting to be penetrated". Many QT disagree with it, but not all and some are relying solely on it.

Even in this sub such topic was raised recently, where one pro-qt said something similar. Thread was deleted, thought.

Or things like that: https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/833q/all_gender_critical_feminists_care_about_is/

It was deleted, but you can see quotes from there.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In practice I think most straight GC and QT advocating people act on gender norms to some degree in regards to sexual behaviour and fantasy

I have never once seen a GC person advocate for that. Can you point to an example? Or maybe I'm reading that sentence wrong. Do you mean they act on gender norms without advocating for them?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I expect trans people to be more gender conforming to the opposite sex norms "stereotypes" than non trans cis people.

I don't think stereotypes is a good word for it.

I don't think most straight GC people want to abolish those norms. Some do. OP thinks masculinity is the norm and femininity shouldn't be a thing.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

In my experience, the stereotypes seem to be leaned into more with a newer sexual partner at first. If we're trying to really please each other, I think those might be assumed expectations that we jump to, though if we're really listening to each other and communicating well then it's usually obvious that neither of us want that. It seems true of (biological) women, too, based on conversations I've had and accounts I've read.

But that's just my perspective post-transition. Pre-transition, the question of being dominant/submissive or a top/bottom in the context of male-male relations always was one of the first things to establish with a new partner, at least with casual sex. Some guys seemed weirded out or put off by me in the bedroom, and I wonder if maybe I wasn't conforming to some male sexual stereotypes enough or was behaving more stereotypically female sexually. Maybe I was just generally weird, though!

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Pre-transition, the question of being dominant/submissive or a top/bottom in the context of male-male relations always was one of the first things to establish with a new partner, at least with casual sex.

I guess when it's two guys, you have to work out who's going to be doing what. Heterosexual intercourse is more straightforward. It's my understanding that the top/bottom thing between gay men is distinct from dominant/submissive, which are the BDSM roles. Did you find that gay men wanted a BDSM dynamic? Did they assume that you would be submissive to them, being (presumably) more GNC? Or did they assume they were going to be the "top" in terms of penetration? I suppose for casual sex, men might make that clear even before meeting.

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I guess when it's two guys, you have to work out who's going to be doing what.

This seems strange to me- as a Lesbian, in my experience, my partners and I have done more or less the same things for one another. We don't tend to turn activities into identities the way gay men seem to do.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, I guess that only applies if they're going to have intercourse. I would assume lots of gay men switch back and forth in general, but on any given occasion, one guy's doing the penetrating and the other is being penetrated.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I was pretty oblivious to BDSM at that time, but 'dominant' and 'submissive' were commonly used descriptors that were almost used interchangeably with 'top' and 'bottom' in online posts. Maybe those dynamics were more at play than I realized, those were often very objectifying experiences (maybe that's just anonymous sex though?). All but one of those guys I met through Craigslist, and they always made it clear what they liked and what they wanted in their post, so I would get with 'masc dom tops' who were looking for 'fem sub bottoms' or something similarly phrased. Just answering an ad sort of implied what one was into, so there wasn't much discussion that way ever in my experience. The one guy I knew from high school was really masculine-presenting, and I guess we both just assumed each other's sexual preferences and interests because we never discussed it. It seems like being GNC led others to assume I'm more sexually submissive and a 'bottom', and to be fair I pretty much always assumed more masculine guys were more dominant 'tops'.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's interesting. Maybe top/bottom has been overtaken by dom/sub because of porn culture, even if no actual BDSM is obviously taking place. This was back in the 2000s?

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Late 2000s/early 2010s. At least in that online space, many of them were closeted with girlfriends and wives so they might not be representative of how most gay or bi men talk(ed) or use that lingo.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes sense, especially if they were on the down low.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

hey

To add nuance to my own opinions...

Modestly, men and women are on average sexually and romantically different, even if there is overlap.

" This would be the stereotype that men are sexually dominant and women are sexually submissive and passive by nature."

On average, with opposite exceptions being rare.

But I would not confuse passivity, "submission" with zero sexual desire. It's not the same thing.

I think there is plenty social, scientific, cultural, cross cultural evidence that men and women are on average different when it comes to sexuality.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

On average, with opposite exceptions being rare.

Then what do you make of the fact that every single person in this thread is contradicting your belief and saying it doesn't apply to them or the women they know? We can't all be outliers, including our female friends and family members.

But I would not confuse passivity, "submission" with zero sexual desire. It's not the same thing.

But you said women had no genuine sexual desires of their own. That their only pleasure lies in being objectified and treated like a "prize" or an object.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I mean if they were true they wouldn’t be called stereotypes

[–]Vulptex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I am the only person I know who is the opposite of the norm. And I'm not even sure if I count, because I completely lack any true sexual desire among various other oddities, and I'm male which should make that practically impossible. Not even any desire to date or crushes or anything.

Yes I do wish I was the opposite sex a lot in case you were wondering. Though I wonder if that's not simply because women objectively have it a whole lot better than men overall.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Would you describe yourself as asexual?

Though I wonder if that's not simply because women objectively have it a whole lot better than men overall.

It's really a matter of perspective, though. I hate being female. Some women would switch sexes in a heartbeat.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Would you describe yourself as asexual?

Yes.

It's really a matter of perspective, though. I hate being female. Some women would switch sexes in a heartbeat.

Probably the result of internalized misogyny and/or constantly hearing about "male privilege". Transitioners have wildly different stories to tell.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Some women are happy to transition and get that privilege. I used to "pass" as a boy growing up. I know what it's like to have people think you're male. I prefer it. Women are viewed as emotionally, intellectually, socially, and sexually inferior to men. I can't stand being seen like that.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

See I had the opposite experience. Everyone listened to and cared about the girls when I was young, but me and other boys were scolded for showing any dissent or problems whatsoever. If we couldn't handle it it was called "behavior issues" and needed to be dealt with via punishment or therapy, the exact same things that would get a girl coddled and given a treat to make her feel better. Most of them could mask it learning this, but us sensitive ones were always considered badly behaved. And it only got worse the older we got. The male exendability hypothesis has a lot of merit in my experience. The entire goal was to shape us boys into men who don't have lives of our own and only serve to defend and work for the tribe, and mate with and provide for women. The girls on the other hand were valued for merely existing. My body does this too, with puberty taking away all my previous talents and replacing them with the skills outlined above, whereas women experience barely any changes during puberty except breast growth and periods.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's why everyone is different. My impression was that boys were seen as the strong, brave ones, while girls were just considered "nice." I didn't want to be "nice." I wanted to be a protector and a warrior. I wanted to be expected to be brave and tough and willing to die for my family and my country. I didn't want people to consider me weak or a crybaby or too emotionally fragile to handle those situations.

By the way, female puberty and female biology in general is a lot harsher on the body and more involved than you're making out.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Female puberty is also very easily dealt with and mitigated, and if one wants to become male she basically can. The male changes cannot be treated in any meaningful way. I know women have it worse physically in some ways, but men have it worse in other ways (bulky structure, ugliness, etc). And the biggest thing everyone forgets is the internal mental state. Women basically get to retain the same cognitivity and mental functions they had before: lots of creativity, strong emotions, high intelligence, quick learning, high malleability, vibrant sense perception, basically everything good for self-actualization and pleasure. You have no idea what it feels like to lose all of that in becoming a man. We lose all our creativity and most of our intelligence, all the fun stuff, to boring motor skills and mating instincts. Our emotions go from strong to everything being monotone, even the best things that happen to us feel like nothing special. And we're always angry and on edge. Our sex drive is extremely annoying and nagging, and the pleasure we get from it is minimal and short-lived; and that's the most we're allowed anymore. Our brains become locked in on specific functions for the clan and we can't adapt our brains to anything else; we are the specialized droids, you are the defaults who can choose your own path. Our senses become dull in exchange for practical purposes, namely spotting prey or opponents. Basically our entire existence becomes about losing our individuality for the good of the clan we're in. And I have autism, meaning I have no sense of tribal loyalty or petty pride and glory to cope with it. I cannot do my special interests anymore, because my brain is deadlocked on skills for male tribal roles and doesn't give me any leeway or direction anymore. And even if I could, I can't enjoy them or feel them to anywhere near what it used to be. It's extremely depressing and there's not a fucking thing I can ever do about it, I'm wrecked for life. My life has been nothing but a drag ever since my mind started changing, everything to fight through and nothing to look forward to.

These days women are allowed to be warriors. Even if it's still not "taken seriously," it's at least not frowned upon and punished like a male choosing any path except the very specific one laid out for men to fulfill. So women could still have a slight disadvantage in very specific circumstances, but that does not undermine reverse sexism. We just don't care about sexism against men because of the Women Are Wonderful Effect and Male Expendability, so every little injustice against women is breaking news but something 10x worse happening to a man will get no sympathy. I don't think it's deliberate, it's just nature unfortunately, it's genetically hardwired behavior and instincts.