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[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Erik Erikson used the term" identity" in discussing how humans developed a sense of self in 1959, but despite this the term "identity" was still not widely adopted or commonly used in the fields of child development, psychiatry, psychology etc until very recently. In the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, the terms used were "sense of self," "self concept," "self image" or just plain "self."

Back then, the term "identity crisis" was used to describe the emotional trouble some people experienced in middle-age or after a major life disruption, such as divorce, the death of a partner or loved one, losing a long-held job, becoming disabled and so on. But generally speaking, when the term "identity" was used back then, it was used in a political context: African American identity, Arab identity, Jewish identity and so on.

When the concept of the "right to self-identify" first emerged, it was in the context of colonialism & referred to peoples, eg populations, not to individuals. The right to self-identify meant that "peoples" - particularly minority, indigenous, oppressed peoples who had been subject to colonization - were the ones who should decide what to name themselves & their nations/lands, & it was population groups themselves - not their colonial powers, overlords or outsiders - who should decide who gets included in their group & who doesn't.

So, for example, the "right to self identify" meant the right of the people of the African countries known as Northern and Southern Rhodesia under British colonialism to rename their nations Zambia and Zimbabwe, & the right of the citizens of the country once known as Upper Volta to give it a new name, Burkina Faso, and to call themselves Burkinabé or Burkinabè.

In the US and Canada, the right to "self identify" meant the right of native populations to name their themselves, their nations & lands and to decide who has the right to be called "Native Americans" or "First Nations" and to claim membership in specific tribes/nations. It's because Elizabeth Warren ignored all this that her claim to be part Cherokee & her misguided attempt to prove it by using a DNA test backfired so spectacularly.

Similarly, in the US, "the right to self identify" meant it was up to black-skinned Americans of African heritage - not Americans of other races & ancestry - to decide whether what to call themselves & how they wanted others to refer to them. Hence, "Negro" and "colored people" went out of use and terms such as "African Americans, Black Americans, blacks, people of color" and "American Descendants of Slaves" came into use.

What the gender identity ideologues have done is take - appropriate, borrow, steal - the idea that populations & nations should have the right to self determination of group identity for political reasons in a political context and applied it to individuals for personal & sexual reasons in the realm of interpersonal & societal relations.

Back to "gender identity." I see "gender identity" the way it's commonly used today as meaning what we used to call "the ideal self" or the "should-be self." The theory is that we all have two kinds of self-concepts - the one that we think represents who/what we actually are, & the one that represents who/what we desire to be or feel we should be. When there's too big a gap between our idea of who/what/how we actually are in reality & our idea of who/what/how we ideally ought to be or wish we could be - or we mix up or fail to make a sufficient distinction between our our ideal self & our actual self - we end up with low self-esteem & a distorted, unstable self-image.

This IMO is why people's "gender identities" tend to be so fragile - they are inherently unstable, confused & distorted, not based on reality. For people whose "gender identity" that of the opposite sex (as opposed to being non-binary), the gap between the real self & the ideal, wished-for self is simply too big - & its impossible to bridge. As a result, people with opposite-sex "gender identities" tend to have low self-esteem, to be very anxious about their "identities," vigilant about asserting & protecting their "identities," preoccupied with how others perceive them, & in constant need to have their "gender identities" "validated" by others to stave off their own insecurities.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You put it all so perfectly, as always!

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

This is such an amazing explanation! I guess, thinking of your last couple paragraphs especially, wouldn’t at least some trans people actually be well-adjusted in their identities because there wouldn’t be a big gap between a “real self” and reality? It seems like if someone saw themselves a transsexual woman/man rather than a biological one maybe they wouldn’t feel that there was a gap, or people who are generally regarded as the opposite sex might not feel like there is a big gap either. It doesn’t mean anyone owes anyone treating them any particular way, but I felt like when I read it at least some trans people would have stable and secure identities (assuming all trans people have gender identities, which I’m not so sure about!).

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

wouldn’t at least some trans people actually be well-adjusted in their identities because there wouldn’t be a big gap between a “real self” and reality?

I'm confused coz I was talking about a gap between the real self (who/how you really think you are) & the ideal self (who/how you wish you were or feel you should be). It's the old is/ought dilemma. (BTW, the real self is not necessarily the entirely realistic self, either. Most of us have some distortions in our self-images. Males, for example, tend to see themselves as better looking & smarter than they are, whereas women do the opposite.)

It seems like if someone saw themselves a transsexual woman/man rather than a biological one maybe they wouldn’t feel that there was a gap,

I imagine the people who are "trans" with the healthiest sense of self are those who accept & admit their sex & acknowledge that they had mental health problems that caused them, for one reason or another, to decide to alter their appearance & behavior in order to conform the sex stereotypes associated with the opposite sex. Which sounds like what you have done.

But still as I see it, being secure in one's "identity" is different to being secure in one's sense of self. I think all this "I identify as" stuff is basically BS, especially as it's being done by kids & adolescents far younger & less mature than you.

Also, for most people adopting a trans "identity" still requires engaging in artifice & performance on a daily basis, it often includes outright lying, it requires constant monitoring of one's appearance & behavior so as to try to manage other people's impressions, & of course it necessitates embracing & hewing to rigid, regressive, constricting sex stereotypes - none of which IMHO is a solid foundation on which to base one's sense of self.

Also, doesn't it get exhausting? And, not to pry, but aren't worried about what will happen as you age? Aging really changes people's appearance & body shapes in all sorts of usually unflattering ways that make most of unhappy. Maybe being on female CSH will make a difference, but in my view it's going to be a lot harder for someone like Blaire White or Jazz Jennings to keep up the charade when Blaire & Jazz are 40 or 50. My fear is that life will just mean more & more surgical interventions & cosmetic procedures in pursuit of the unattainable.

One of the issues here is the language. I think trans-identified people of both sex es would be better off giving up the pretense that they are some new breed of women & men & think of themselves as persons of their own sex who choose to "present" themselves according to the sex stereotypes that sexist people associate with the opposite sex. Seems to me trans people put themselves in an impossible situation when they started insisting they are "trans women" & "trans men." They would have been far better off coming up with entirely new words, rather than appropriating & attempting to change the meanings of woman, man, boy, girl, male & female. Or sticking with the old term transvestite.

or people who are generally regarded as the opposite sex might not feel like there is a big gap either. It doesn’t mean anyone owes anyone treating them any particular way

The problem here is that one's sense of self is bound to be fragile & constantly shaken if it is based mainly or largely on how other people regard you (or how you think/imagine other people regard you) and how other people treat you (or again, how you think they are treating you).

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, doesn't it get exhausting? And, not to pry, but aren't worried about what will happen as you age? Aging really changes people's appearance & body shapes in all sorts of usually unflattering ways that make most of unhappy.

What do you mean by exhausting? I don’t feel like being me is automatically exhausting so I’d have to understand how you mean it.

If I didn’t pass when I got older, I guess I’d figure out what that meant. I don’t think it would happen, but I guess you never really know. I’ve lived as an adult long enough to see myself age too. Not to like totally date myself, but I feel I have some idea of what 40 will be like from where I am now. As far as detransitioning or getting surgeries, it’s hard for me to imagine either of those things would happen. Assuming I wanted to detransition/retransition (which I don’t, but I don’t really feel like it’s an option), I’d still have to think about my family. I’m married and we’re going to have a child (adopted), none of these things (including getting a bunch of surgeries, which I honestly don’t want) are my decision to make alone and I just don’t know how they would fit into our lives. I like our lives now. Maybe my body could change in an unexpected way or my voice could drop an octave or something, but I really try to take care of myself and hopefully I’ll age alright. I’m just not sure how to answer that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

What would their identity be though? Idk how to word it, but I guess I mean, even if a trans person does have a secure and stable sense of identity, it’s still not really identifying as or with females/being female or males/being male.

I’d think the “identity” would be “trans”, maybe specifically “transsexual” as opposed to “transgender”. If a trans person is identifying as a “woman” even a “transsexual woman” I think it’s still off base

Eta- I get why a TW would call themselves a woman, but to genuinely consider themselves on seems like it’s still kind of off. I can’t find the right word so I keep using off and I’ll come back with a better one when it comes to me, I’m sorry

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Idk how to word it, but I guess I mean, even if a trans person does have a secure and stable sense of identity, it’s still not really identifying as or with females/being female or males/being male.

Yeah, maybe there is still some dissonance, but I feel like it could be really small, not enough to threaten their identity, if someone existed in that role enough (so small they could even forget about it).

If a trans person is identifying as a “woman” even a “transsexual woman” I think it’s still off base

If the individual person had like internalized another definition that meant transsexual woman was just a type of woman, they might feel fine. It might not be true, but it wouldn’t matter for how they felt.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Dissonance was the perfect word thank you! Not having the right word was bothering me so much lol

I get what you’re saying. I guess I’m thinking more from a hyper GC mentality. I still find the idea of using “woman” as any type of identity offensive.

I guess my point is just that any identity that includes “woman” is still going to be wrong imo if the person claiming the identity is male. I just think even if someone calls it identifying as a woman or a transsexual woman, it’s still not accurate. They are still identifying with what they associate womanhood or “woman-ness” to be, rather than actual womanhood. So it’s not very different to me.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Gotcha! I guess I was thinking more about what would help the person’s identity be stable. Even wrong beliefs might help someone cope, but it’s still probably not the best and, in most cases, won’t work when it meets reality.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, you've put your finger on the problem exactly. A person can have a stable "identity" based on false beliefs - such as that a transsexual male or a male of altered appearance & hormone profile is "a type of woman." But as you say, in most cases, it won't work when it meets reality. Since reality is all around us & tends to be hard to avoid, this means the supposedly stable "identity" really ends up not being very stable after all.

I imagine maintaining a personal "identity" based on an inherently false belief - "as a male who has done XYZ, I've now become a woman" or "any male who identifies as a woman is a woman" - must be very draining. Coz it would seem to require constantly having to filter out reality & defending oneself against basic facts. Like the dictionary definition of woman, the meaning of female, & the realities of girls & women's lives.

Seems to me that a principal reason many trans-identified people are able to hold so firmly to, & be so assertive of, their opposite-sex "identities" is because they suffer from narcissistic personality disorder or other cluster B disorders, or at the very least have strongly pronounced narcissistic traits.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

reality

You reminded me incels (they weren't calling like that back then) from CiS region decade ago. Among them around 10 years ago there was popular idea to "become crazy on purpose". Someone prominent in their movement went to budhist school and found there this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa

Idea was to imagine "perfect woman who loves you near you all the time and will never say no to anything", so they were taking drugs, different budhist meditations and techniques to become crazy and all the time see that woman nearby them, so now "they have girlfriend". I saw few men really going crazy from this and ended up permanently in psychiatric asylum.

Some men would go so far to fulfill their sexual desires, that consciously damage their brain and sanity.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Gender identity is the biggest crock of bullshit ever.

It’s so individualized and immeasurable that it’s meaningless.

It doesn’t make sense that someone can form a gender identity that counters the sex they are born and are seen/socialized as, meaning they’ve formed this identity despite how society sees and treated them, despite what they see when they see themselves, but somehow someway even though they were able to develop that sense of identity completely on their own, they now need the rest of us to constantly validate it? Also- if they felt secure enough in their identity before “transition”- why do they need to “transition”? Wouldn’t gender identity just mean that some unaltered male bodies happen to be women and some unaltered female bodies happen to be men? There are so many people calling themselves trans or “under the umbrella” who don’t do anything to physically “transition” they just claim to be the opposite gender (or one of hundreds) and go about their lives and as ridiculous as it sounds, to me it’s easier to believe that those people genuinely think they have a gender identity. They understand that the rest of us won’t see them as the gender they claim (even if they think we’re wrong for that), they still claim it-they’re also obnoxious as fuck and their ideology makes even less sense so don’t think I support them, just making a comparison. So how does that work? Why are some people able to live their truths (🙄) without drastic cosmetic surgeries and intentional hormonal imbalances while other people’s gender identity causes them to literally want to chop their dick off because they can’t wait for bottom surgery?

I don’t get that. How did you know it was valid before? How can you even confirm that what you’re calling gender identity actually even matches the gender identity of people born the sex you wish you were born? There’s literally no way to verify that what TW claim to be their gender identity would match the identity of women- there’s ample evidence that actually isnt the case.

Actual trans people (people who do “transition”) use gender identity to try to avoid acknowledging, possibly even to themselves, that they are severely mentally ill. It’s an attempt to legitimize themselves, it’s just desperate bullshit that can be seen through easily if you just listen to trans people try to explain it. I cannot believe people take it seriously and laws are being made to protect something we can’t even define and that they can’t even explain.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

That’s why I maintain it’s absolutely not their identity but the idealised version of themselves they wish they could be. They literally claim their identity is made up of things they have never experienced. That’s crazy..

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I agree.

Honestly- I don’t see how someone can identify as something they’ve specifically been identified and treated as the opposite of???? Like you literally get treated differently in almost every aspect of life than I do because of our sexes- but please tell me all about how you totally understand what it is to be in my shoes

Gender identity is based on things that have nothing to do with actually being a female/male person, but rather with what is unnecessarily associated with the sexes/genders. How do you identify into a social structure that wasn’t applied to you and that you were exempt from? And how do you account for people who behave counter to gendered expectations but don’t identify as the other sex?

If this is your identity, why do you need to change your name, intentionally give yourself a hormone imbalance, and possibly have/want to have extensive cosmetic surgery to be “yourself”? How does that even begin to translate to being “authentic” to who you are? It’s the literal opposite.

It doesn’t make sense. There are so many huge contradictions that never gets addressed.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I want, therefore I am.

It’s so far removed from what self identity actually is. The short answer to all the questions raised is ‘it isn’t/doesnt’.

Any attempt to address it is always met with the melodramatic ur literally killing meeee crap. They have to know on some level if their first line of defense is emotional manipulation.

If they bother to actually answer, it’s inevitably a vague, handwave answer like ‘I just feel better’.

It’s bonkers that we’ve got thousands of self proclaimed psychology experts who managed to miss Erikson and his contemporaries.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I want, therefore I am.

I think it's more like I covet, therefore I am. Or What I covet, I am.

To covet means specifically to want to possess something belonging to someone else. When someone is covetous, the intent is not just to obtain whatever is coveted, but to take away what is coveted from someone else & leave them empty handed. A guy who is merely envious of his neighbor's spiffy new sports car can go buy one for himself - & that will satisfy him. But a covetous guy won't be happy with that. A covetous guy will only be satisfied if the neighbor's sports car is taken away from the neighbor & given to himself. The covetous man revels in thievery & in the thought & sight of someone else being robbed of what is rightfully theirs.

I believe the vast majority of trans-identified males today are covetous towards the female sex of girls & women. They want what is ours for themselves for their own selfish, onanistic enjoyment - & for the additional pleasure of seeing us robbed of who/what we are, reduced to an undefinable category with no special name & denied basic human rights.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh damn that’s it

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

literally killing meeee

Just today saw: "Women having their own definition is what leading to record violence rates against trans people": https://twitter.com/Book_Worm_83/status/1414791694646538244

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Lmao, how pathetic. Women’s opinions are making men hurt us! How dare the women!

Like we have control over men and just choose to send them out like attack dogs.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Fuckin oath!

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You know what I am finding most funny in them? That those rules are existing for 10-12 years in this form (and even longer in different versions, up to 30-40 years), and they are perfectly describing why modern gender ideology movement is misogynistic. How perfectly those rules are covering all the actions and words of TRA and MRA, even thought were written long before anything happened on mass scale. Those rules are perfectly predicting how TRA are acting, reacting and what they are saying.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s amazing when they literally list out all the ways they deliberately perpetuate misogyny and then why they feel they are special enough to get away with it.

They got everyone so excited to cape for the poor widdle babies who just wanna take a wee wee :( that now, when they are openly hateful and violent towards women, their handmaidens still defend them while getting spat on.

Tra is just mra recycling sjw/post modern language. Incels, mras, tras, all really just men rejected by women and violently mad about it. The only thing that changes is the mask they wear.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Holy shit, I've seen this image before and thought it was made by radfems specifically about transwomen. You're telling me it was made pre-gender apocalypse about men who don't identify as women? That's amazing.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Eh that was a tangent lol, my bad!

Identity by nature shouldn’t be so fragile that it can be validated. It certainly shouldn’t need to be. If you know who you are, then someone else not seeing that should roll off of your shoulders easily. There shouldn’t be the ability to trigger you or ruin your day- look at Rachel Dolezal. She’s fucking nuts but the whole world telling her so didn’t sway her and she’s doubled down since being exposed. Obviously she’s not a black Roman (lmao! woman) and she’s awful, so maybe on the surface not a great example, but my point is it doesn’t matter what is said to or about her- Rachel is gonna Rachel and we can’t stop her lol, that’s the opposite for trans people. They lose their shit if they aren’t affirmed. They threaten suicide and call you a bigot. Meanwhile Rachel dgaf. Because she really believes herself.

I think preferences inform your experiences and personality. But I think identity is built on experience and the reality of your circumstances.

I don’t think it makes sense for gender identity to be separated from the rest of self identity. If it’s real it should all connect and make sense and be relatable. The fact that we might single just GI out is indicative of how much it doesn’t fit anywhere else because it’s bullshit lol

I think anyone who claims gender identity is either a woke sheep who’s just trying to be an ally or a deeply mentally ill person. Any other sense of identity is built around your lived experiences and the people and surroundings that influence you- GI is built on you rejecting all of that for something you can’t experience. It’s stupid.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It was a great tangent then! You had me at: "Gender identity is the biggest crock of bullshit ever." It really is. Some inner sense of self sees people of the opposite sex outside itself and it says "that, I'm that. This aspect of me is one of them and I am 'that' so much that it over-rides the reality of my body", and once that idea is entertained in polite company flashing and indecent exposure becomes "stop staring at my ladyd*ck 7 year old terf".