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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (49 children)

A lot of them seem to conflate it with simple cross dressing when the outward presentation is only a very small piece of the mental picture.

Also I have seen many people compare it to eating disorders and as someone diagnosed both with an eating disorder and gender dysphoria I can absolutely say they aren’t the same thing.

They also wildly underestimate the loss of physical strength as well as the way society treats us differently than men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

OP's questions were about the misconceptions that "QT/pro trans" people believe GC have about "being trans, gender identity" and QT/pro trans "goals or activism" in general, but your reply strikes me as pertaining solely or mainly to how you think we misapprehend trans-identified males. To wit:

They also wildly underestimate the loss of physical strength as well as the way society treats us differently than men.

But not all people who identify as trans claim to lose physical strength due to the "gender affirming" medical interventions they partake of - only males do. Females who identify as trans & take exogenous T as a result claim to gain muscle mass & strength - & they typically do, too, albeit to nowhere near male levels.

BTW, if you want to persuade GC that we really do underestimate the amount of physical strength lost by trans-identified males as a result of the "gender affirming" medical treatments they get, the best way to do this would be by providing some evidence. Meaning research & papers by scientists, not just claims & assertions by such persons & their allies.

As to your contention that GCs also "underestimate" "the way society treats us differently than men," I think that you might be misunderstanding GCs in turn. Many of us recognize acknowledge that trans-identified males often are treated differently than males who don't identify as trans are treated.

What we disagree with is the notion that trans-identified males are treated the same as, or similar to, the way girls & women are treated. We also disagree with the contention that in all cases across the board, trans-identified males are always treated worse than other males.

I have seen many people compare it to eating disorders and as someone diagnosed both with an eating disorder and gender dysphoria I can absolutely say they aren’t the same thing.

But the comparisons to EDs are most often made when speaking specifically of young female persons who identify as trans, not to all persons of both sexes.

Although EDs can affect either sex, the large majority of persons with EDs are female, & always have been female. In female persons, EDs, "gender dysphoria" & adopting a trans or non-binary identity often stem from the same impulses - namely a strong desire & urge to try to escape having female biology & a female human body, & all the social constraints, second-tier status, sexual objectification, physical problems, vulnerabilities, limitations & shaming that being a female human in a misogynistic, male supremacist society involves, particularly once sexual maturation commences & female secondary sex characteristics become evident to self & others.

These impulses are very different to those that drive males to identify as the opposite sex. Females who identify as trans are usually trying to escape being sexualized, sexually objectified, desired, pursued & subordinated by others, although this might not be their sole motivation. Whereas many males who identify as trans seek & wish to experience the very things females are trying to run away from. Not all, mind you. But many.

Seems to me that many GC people are better at seeing the distinctions between the different groups & kinds of people who identify as trans, their different motivations & experiences, & the variations that can & do occur in the cases of specific individuals & within & across sub-populations, than many QT/pro-trans & trans-identified people are.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

I don’t claim to understand trans men. I sympathize with them over the shared struggles with dysphoria but I cannot ever really understand someone who wants to be a man.

BTW, if you want to persuade GC that we really do underestimate the amount of physical strength lost by trans-identified males as a result of the "gender affirming" medical treatments they get, the best way to do this would be by providing some evidence. Meaning research & papers by scientists, not just claims & assertions by such persons & their allies.

I’ve previously cited the Harper endurance study as well as a study indicating a loss of an average of a 5 percent of muscle volume loss within the first year.

We also disagree with the contention that in all cases across the board, trans-identified males are always treated worse than other males

And you are wrong. Hence my bringing it up. Trans woman are treated worse than cis men. Universally.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I’ve previously cited the Harper endurance study as well as a study indicating a loss of an average of a 5 percent of muscle volume loss within the first year.

Males post puberty have 45% more muscle volume/area than females do. World Rugby found that trans-identified males lost 0-4% after one year of T suppression & exogenous estradiol, not 5%.

Similarly, trans-identified males start out with 30-50% more muscle strength than women have. But World Rugby found that "gender affirming" testosterone suppression & estradiol in trans-identified males results a loss in strength of only 0-9%.

Even if in the first year of "gender affirming" treatment, males do lose 5% of muscle mass &, say, an average of 5% in muscle strength as well, so what? They'd still have 40% more muscle volume/area and 25-45% more muscle strength than women. Moreover, what little research there is shows they continue retain these sorts of huge advantages even after 3 years on T suppressants & exogenous estrogen.

Plus, even Harper acknowledges that during "transition," many males try to increase the amount of muscle & strength they lose by ceasing to train, & often not exercising at all, as well as by going on starvation diets or other lose-weight-fast regimens. Ross Tucker of Science of Sport has said that there's evidence that if males continue to eat well, work out & do weight-bearing exercises whilst taking estradiol & T suppressants for "gender affirming" purposes, some actually gain muscle mass & muscle strength.

I understand that to males accustomed to male muscle mass, male strength, male speed & overall male superiority in most sports, losing amounts of normal muscle volume & strength in the 5% range might seem like a big deal. But this is because it's in comparison to how muscular & strong their male bodies previously were - & to how muscular & strong other males' bodies still are. The norms by which they, and you, are measuring are male standards. These norms & standards have nothing to do with women.

Also, all the tinkering males do with hormones doesn't do away with all the other advantages males have such as the much bigger hearts & lungs, longer & sturdier bones, taller stature, narrower pelvis, bigger hands & feet & so on.

https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2020/10/09/a67e3cc3-7dea-4f1e-b523-2cba1073729d/Transgender-Research_Summary-of-d

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I’m not a proponent if trans women in sports I’m talking about vulnerability to men.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Women come into the equation when you’ve so often stated that the only way to keep transwomen safe from other men is to allow them into women’s spaces.

Consider this, you’re afraid because you’re about, by your own estimate,5% weaker than the average man. We are afraid because the average transwoman is at least 30-45% stronger than us.

Why are our fears of that much greater strength so dismissible when your fear of a much smaller difference is so great? Nobody can claim that women are not harmed by transwomen. There’s a thousand criminal cases proving otherwise.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

the average transwoman is at least 30-45% stronger than us.

Or at least the average transitioning one. With selfID, men don't even need to transition, and even expecting them to is bigoted and controlling.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep, it’s friggin’ bleak. But somehow they’re the most victimised and oppressed by men.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Women come into the equation when you’ve so often stated that the only way to keep transwomen safe from other men is to allow them into women’s spaces.

Most practical and viable, not only possible. I’ve repeatedly said single occupancy neutral spaces are closed preferable but will not be commonplace without a federal mandate.

Consider this, you’re afraid because you’re about, by your own estimate,5% weaker than the average man. We are afraid because the average transwoman is at least 30-45% stronger than us.

Actually I’m post op and have been for an extended period. I’ve lost about 40-50 percent of my pre transition strength. And that was 5 percent of muscle mass in the first year.

Why are our fears of that much greater strength so dismissible when your fear of a much smaller difference is so great?

Access and likelihood of violence. More men will attack trans women than trans women will attack men. And they are more capable when they do engage in violence.

There’s a thousand criminal cases proving otherwise.

No there are not. At the minimum this is wildly hyperbolic.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

So my claims are hyperbolic despite me having the ability to prove it, but your claims which you have repeatedly refused to back up are gospel?

I found over fifty cases of transwomen assaulting, killing, or molesting women and girls in under ten minutes. You really think I couldn’t find a thousand?

Do you ever read back things you say like that and think wow, that’s weird?

Share the stats or please stop making baseless claims you made up on the fly. You cannot reasonably be expected to be taken at your word when you insist anything we say without figures is hyperbole or a lie.

Since you always say the third options/spaces are impossible, you’re clearly advocating for trans women’s access to women’s spaces. Does our fear of males not matter? Do men attack women less?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

So my claims are hyperbolic despite me having the ability to prove it, but your claims which you have repeatedly refused to back up are gospel?

You do not have thousands of cases of trans women being violent towards trans women.

I found over fifty cases of transwomen assaulting, killing, or molesting women and girls in under ten minutes. You really think I couldn’t find a thousand?

I absolutely do not.

Share the stats or please stop making baseless claims you made up on the fly. You cannot reasonably be expected to be taken at your word when you insist anything we say without figures is hyperbole or a lie.

You mean other than the study I just cited?

Since you always say the third options/spaces are impossible, you’re clearly advocating for trans women’s access to women’s spaces. Does our fear of males not matter? Do men attack women less?

Didn’t say impossible. Said Impractical and requiring a federal mandate. Ive said it’s impossible for trans women to create those spaces ourselves. That’s not that they are impossible generally.

Does our fear of males not matter? Do men attack women less?

Less trans women attack natal women than men. And less natal women attack trans women than men attack trans women. Of the currently available 2 options trans women with natal women minimizes total incidents of violence. It’s not an optimal solution but consider this:

Two people are in a small shelter. The shelter is surrounded by tigers. If one persons says to the other “get out of this shelter, you can build your own to protect you from the tigers” does that theoretical possibility protect the second person from tigers in the mean time?

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Impractical and requiring a federal mandate. Ive said it’s impossible for trans women to create those spaces ourselves.

Boo fucking hoo. Yes, tell us women more how impossible it is to create special spaces for us, we definitely don't have a clue about those struggles (also do it while trying to dismantle these spaces in the same breath).

It's "impractical" to advocate your own spaces, but it's not "impractical" to dismantle women's spaces and force everyone to call men women because of what pronouns they use? Trans people sure have a ton of power for being so voiceless.

Two people are in a small shelter. The shelter is surrounded by tigers. If one persons says to the other “get out of this shelter, you can build your own to protect you from the tigers” does that theoretical possibility protect the second person from tigers in the mean time?

Uh, no. One person is in a shelter that they've made for themselves. There's a bunch of tigers outside. One tiger is bullied and bitten by the others, so it says "Let me in, these tigers are dangerous! I'm weaker than them! I'm one of you!" and the person refuses and tells them to build their own shelter, does that protect the tiger in the mean time? Should the person be made to share their space with the tiger?

Also, we'd be more understanding if any trans person advocated their own spaces. This is not even in the picture anywhere because it'd be "invalidating". In fact, more people are advocating dismantling gendered spaces in general than creating trans spaces.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Study was based on anecdotes. This means your proof is questionable. Do you have proof that is not based on a collection of anecdotes?

Here are fifteen cases to start. If you’d like, I’ll send you more. There’s plenty.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg

https://www.womenarehuman.com/trans-person-lured-drugged-robbed-victims-of-thousands-in-designer-goods-say-police/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-sexually-violent-predator-transferred-to-womens-prison-after-identifying-as-a-woman/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-indiv-stalks-pours-boiling-water-on-casino-patron-who-spurned-sex-advances/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/confessed-femicidal-killers-transgender-identity-may-open-door-to-lighter-sentence/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-pedophile-with-long-criminal-record-arrested-for-harry-potter-erotica-web-searches/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/evil-dangerous-transgender-child-rapist-imprisoned-for-86-sex-attacks/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-20-year-old-faces-three-counts-of-sexual-violence/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-paedophile-jailed-for-seeking-to-commit-child-sex-offences-against-adolescent-girls/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-farmer-veteran-killed-two-and-fed-their-bodies-to-pigs/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/more-violence-from-trans-activists-towards-women-protesting-male-violence/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/online-child-safety-team-exposes-transgender-child-rapist/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-person-arrested-for-shooting-a-woman-three-times-as-she-sat-in-a-car/

https://www.womenarehuman.com/trans-activists-ratchet-up-violent-attacks-against-women-in-france-spain-for-international-womens-day-2021/

Imagine two people are in a modern shopping center. One is smaller, weaker, and make up the majority of victims of sex based crime. One is a smaller weaker person with the same characteristics and socialisation as the perpetrators of sex based crimes. You each need to pee. The smallest person most likely to be victim of sex crimes receives threats of sex crimes if she expresses discomfort about using the same bathroom as the other person in the mall.

Two people are expressing opposing ideas. One has a social justice movement behind them, with politicians, celebrities, and the fabulously wealthy supporting them. There are marches on university campuses in their support. School curriculums are altered to educate people about accepting this idea, laws are changed to reflect their idea, clinics serving people with this idea pop up faster than subway franchises, foundations and charities are created to support this idea, communities are built online over celebrating this idea.

One receives threats of death, threats of rape, threats of violence, threats of bombs, is banned from media, blamed for suicides, and told to kill themselves.

A chicken is in the henhouse. A fox asks to come in because there is a dog outside. Why is the hen supposed to protect the fox? The fox has opportunity to build a den.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A female poster asked:

Why are our fears [meaning the fears of girls & women] of that much greater strength [of males over females] so dismissible when your fear of a much smaller difference [between two groups of males] is so great?

You responded to this question from a female person about the enormous male over female strength advantage by once again speaking only about the risk of male on male violence:

Access and likelihood of violence. More men will attack trans women than trans women will attack men. And they are more capable when they do engage in violence.

Huh? You constantly portray "trans women" as delicate, featherweight weaklings who'd never hurt a fly, but now you're saying that some will attack other males. And your exclusive focus on males, male wants, male needs, male marginalization, male suffering, male supposed vulnerabilities & so on means that girls & women are completely invisible to you. We seem not to matter or even register in your mind except, that is, as human shields to keep you safe from other males. And so long as we might be of use to serve male interests in other ways.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Huh? You constantly portray "trans women" as delicate, featherweight weaklings who'd never hurt a fly, but now you're saying that some will attack other males.

This was an autocorrect problem it should have said “than trans women will attack natal women”

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think male trans people are the only men vulnerable to violence from other men? Gay men have been targeted with physical violence for ages, men of smaller and weaker stature and even men with meek personalities are popular targets for bullying. Should we let all of them into female spaces? Male inter-personal violence is unfortunate, but it is not up to women to sacrifice their safety to accommodate these men. Men being bullied does not make them safe or not-misogynistic, and the issues that they have among themselves are up to them to fix, instead of using women as scapegoats.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Please provide evidence for this last claim. A retelling of the time you were victimised does not constitute evidence.

Also, 5 percent is so little. If this tiny bit of loss of strength makes transwomen so vulnerable, shouldn’t there be campaigns to let in very small men, men with dwarfism, men with anorexia Nervosa, men with atrophy, and elderly men, since they are even more vulnerable due to significantly less strength?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

5 percent of muscle mass is not very little. It hugely siginificant. It’s the same rate of loss that is experience by someone going from regular strength training to no workouts at all. Its extremely substantial.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It’s not like it’s crippling or the difference between a man and a woman. Plus, other assets to male strength are not lost as all, like the larger heart and lungs, larger stronger bones, and greater height and reach. I’m sure the deconditioning caused by estrogen dosing does diminish strength to some degree but let’s not act like it turns men into little kittens.

Just skipping past the bits you were asked to prove? That’s fine but please stop making such a silly claim if you refuse to prove it.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Actually we lose bone mass and the heart being a muscle would weaken as well.

And I’m not talking about comparison to women, I’m not pro trans women in sports. I’m talking about vulnerability to men.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

And I’m saying that a five percent loss isn’t enormous or such a vast difference. 95% of anything remaining is a lot. Again, what about men with atrophic conditions, who are underweight, who are wheelchair bound, or have dwarfism?

They are significantly weaker than that. Do they have entitlement to protection afforded by women? Are you suggesting that disabled people or men with eating disorders aren’t discriminated against and at risk from men who consider them lesser? Or are you saying that transwomen are more discriminated against and those men don’t need protection, just the transgender ones? Can you give us anything that would even suggest legitimacy in this claim? You’re not exactly forthcoming with proof but surely there’s vague whiff it could be true and not your own opinion that’s coloured by your bad experience.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Another group to consider is pre-pubescent boys or boys just starting puberty, who haven't developed the muscle mass & strength that older teen boys & men have, & which full-grown males like circling had prior to opting to change their hormone profiles. By custom - & in many cases by regulation or law - boys in the US are supposed to stop accompanying their moms, grans, sisters or other female carers into ladies' loos & locker rooms once they turn 8, though many boys clamor to use the men's on their own well before that.

Circling says circling's concern is "about vulnerability to men," not comparison to women. But young boys have far, far more "vulnerability to men" than full-grown males on T suppressants & estradiol do. So why, I wonder, does circling think it's OK for young boys to use male facilities on their own once they turn 8, but it's too dangerous for full-grown adult males to do so once they "identify as" the opposite sex?

Robbers, sex predators & violent assholes looking to steal another guy's i-phone & money, commit male-on-male sex crimes or just beat up others for the hell of it are much more likely to go after slight boys of age 9, 10 or 11 wearing expensive sneakers than full-grown adult males who happen to be wearing attire, hairstyles & cosmetics commonly associated with the opposite sex. Any criminal-minded guy who's served time behind bars, or been around guys who have, will be fully aware that there are plenty of strong trans-identified males out there with long rap sheets &/or backgrounds in the military & in macho male sports - & that a lot of these persons not only know how to fight, they have hair-trigger tempers & are itching to fight.

At this late date, practically everyone in the USA has seen or heard of public scenes like the ones in the below videos, which are sure to give even malevolent men ample pause before they'd consider picking on males they suspect might "identify as" trans nowadays. Whilst these sorts of "transwomen" do the trans "community" no favors, it's a pretty sure bet that they've increased the safety of trans-identified males as a whole by causing potential bashers to steer clear & back off.

https://youtu.be/UnZf5vWA0mg

https://youtu.be/w3itbkIGNVE

https://youtu.be/0xfc0RDzruU

https://www.tmz.com/2019/01/23/ex-navy-seal-kristin-beck-bashes-transgender-ban-military-service/

https://youtu.be/YgQy70_LPS4?t=106

https://youtu.be/_16sj0JN3VI

TW: profile of Evie Amati, an Australian trans-identified male from a very privileged background & very supportive family, who nearly killed several strangers in a 7-11 store by attacking them in the face & head with an axe: https://youtu.be/Fg3K6zbkW64

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because circling refuses to believe anybody is at the same level or at higher levels of risk than circling is.

There is no breaking their narrative of TW are the most oppressed, most victimised, most hated.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Again, what about men with atrophic conditions, who are underweight, who are wheelchair bound, or have dwarfism?

They also need accommodations and protections? And aren’t subject to the level of violence and vitriol trans women are. People with disabilities have a staggering abuse rate but almost exclusively at the hands of caregivers, not random men they meet.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Where should those protections come from? Should they come from women the way protections for transwomen come at the expense of women?

Can you tell us how you gathered the data indicating that worldwide, you will face more discrimination than a man with dwarfism, SMA, Anorexia Nervosa, or any other diseases or disorders that cause weakness or muscle loss?

How do you make that assessment? Is it based on your experience of a violent incident or are there figures you just really don’t want to share because there’s a limited number of views before the info disappears?

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Thanks for answering.

as well as the way society treats us differently than men

How were you treated 'as a man' and how are you treated 'as a transwoman'?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

(Assuming non stealth/ non passing since otherwise we are simply treated with the same marginalization as natal women by an unknowing society) We are generally just treated more poorly overall. People are much more willing to be aggressive toward us.

Discrimination is Rampant. I myself lost my career when I transitioned. Much if Gc seems to think that we are somehow societally privilege when in fact we are generally subject to pretty substantial marginalization. For every white collar trans person there’s 50 who are unemployed or just scraping by. We aren’t some advantaged social class but much of gc seems to think we are.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Much if Gc seems to think that we are somehow societally privilege when in fact we are generally subject to pretty substantial marginalization.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it isn't that you don't face discrimination or marginalization because you clearly do. It's that females don't have specifically sex-based privilege over you (also known as so called cis-privilege), and also that the discrimination or marginalization that you face doesn't entitle you to erode the protections that women have for the sex-based oppression that they face and you don't. I also don't feel obligated to help you or other males fix your problems which are caused by other males, especially at my expense.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it isn't that you don't face discrimination or marginalization because you clearly do.

Even this is more than many gc people admit honestly. There are often accusations that essentially we are somehow societally elevated or protected Even above men

I also don't feel obligated to help you or other males fix your problems which are caused by other males, especially at my expense.

If you don’t think you have a moral obligation to help that’s fine, but I at least don’t want people denying we are marginalized.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Of course I don’t think I have a moral obligation to help you fix your problems. I don’t exist to serve males.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don’t understand that defensive reaction. I literally just said it was fine.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It was a fairly neutral response to your bringing morality into it in the first place, but I of course can't control what tone you decide to attach to my responses.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I didn’t bring morality into it. I explicitly disavowed blameworthiness.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's a bizarre denial considering everyone can read the thread, but I'll leave it.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (47 children)

Many GCs think we are trying to enforce gender roles or trans every GNC kid. That's not true. I am staunchly against gender roles (which is different from gender identity, BTW). I think women should be allowed to go topless if men are allowed to go topless. My pet peeve is when a father watching his own kids is called "babysitting". You can't babysit your own kids. I loathe when fathers are praised for simply being involved in their child's life while mothers don't get nearly the same praise and are even told they should have been more responsible and kept their legs closed. I loathe when men get praised for sleeping with many women while women are called whores and sluts for doing the exact same thing. Or when women are expected to act more modest, polite and clean/organized then men. Or when men interrupt

I notice it is cis people who are enforcing restrictive gender roles. Examples are in kindergarten in the early 2000s. We were about to do some art project and sitting in a circle and the teacher asked each kid what color paper should choose. One boy choose pink, and a teacher told him "that's a girls color". Than in 3rd grade we were making mother’s day cards and coloring. I don't remember what this boy was drawing but a teacher told him "I don't think your mother will like that" and to draw stereotypically feminine things like flowers. Those teachers are still teaching at that school, as their names are on the school's website, and they appear cis. Then during prom, it was always girls who wore dresses while boys wear suits and ties. This year, my local CVS laid out the mother’s day cards, and most of the mother’s day cards were pink or had flowers. Then when they laid out the father's day cards, many were blue and one of them was a pop-up toolbox. AFAIK Hallmark is controlled by cis people. In my experience trans people are more likely to challenge restrictive gender roles than cis people. We shouldn't only blame trans people for a larger societal problem.

Also, we don't consider it transphobic if you refuse to sleep with a trans person because. We cannot help who we are attracted to and if you're not attracted to someone that's fine. We believe people should be allowed to define their own sexualities. If a trans woman considers dating men considers herself straight, she's straight. If a trans men dating other men considers himself a gay man, he's a gay man. But no one should be forced to date or sleep with anybody.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

Gender roles, if they are not enforced by qt, then why are poster children like Jazz Jennings, who was diagnosed as a child based on his gender nonconformity still held up as ideals of early transition?

Why do so many males perpetuate ideas like estrogen use making them less intelligent, more emotional, and bad drivers?

I’m not gonna address the claim that “cis” people enforce gender more because one kindergarten teacher 21 years ago said blue is a boys colour other than to laugh at how bad that argument is.

Do you think the marketing teams at hallmark are gender critical and they choose pink for Mother’s Day because of that? Or because it’s already heavily associated as a woman’s colour and mothers are women?

In what way does it challenge gender norms when a thousand men say they are women because skirt goes spinny, because they are submissive, because they enjoy beauty culture, or because they enjoy participating in activities societally deemed feminine?

Wouldn’t a challenge to gender norms be a man donning a skirt and taking up soap making because he likes it and acknowledging that he is still a man?

How can straight and homosexual mean multiple conflicting things and still be effective communication? How is language meant to work if words do not have concrete meanings?

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

Gender roles, if they are not enforced by qt, then why are poster children like Jazz Jennings, who was diagnosed as a child based on his gender nonconformity still held up as ideals of early transition?

I don't think Jazz was diagnosed based solely on gender non-conformity. I think she stated outright many times she was a girl, and gender roles are deeply ingrained in society, so she probably wanted to be treated the same was society treats other girls because she's a girl.

I’m not gonna address the claim that “cis” people enforce gender more because one kindergarten teacher 21 years ago said blue is a boys colour other than to laugh at how bad that argument is.

In my personal experience, trans people are more likely to challenge traditional gender roles than cis people.

Do you think the marketing teams at hallmark are gender critical and they choose pink for Mother’s Day because of that? Or because it’s already heavily associated as a woman’s colour and mothers are women?

Yes pink is heavily associated with women, but I think cis people decided this.

In what way does it challenge gender norms when a thousand men say they are women because skirt goes spinny, because they are submissive, because they enjoy beauty culture, or because they enjoy participating in activities societally deemed feminine?

That's not the reason MTF people transition.

Wouldn’t a challenge to gender norms be a man donning a skirt and taking up soap making because he likes it and acknowledging that he is still a man?

Do you believe the stereotype that trans women are hyper feminine? One of my friends is a trans woman and doesn't wear dresses and skirts. She wears the same clothes she wore pre-transition.

How can straight and homosexual mean multiple conflicting things and still be effective communication? How is language meant to work if words do not have concrete meanings?

Being attracted to trans people who share the gender identity you're attracted to doesn't necessarily make you bisexual. I'm attracted to cis men and passing trans men. I had a few people on this sub insist I'm bisexual because I'm attracted to cis and trans men even though I'm straight.

I have nothing against the LGB community. Gay marriage was legalized in my state when I was finishing 9th grade, and I excitedly told my classmates in US history class the good news. The beginning of that year, the teacher had us write an essay about any government policy, IIRC. I remember I wrote about the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. In later years, a bisexual girl asked me out. I declined because I am straight. She is currently in a relationship with another woman, according to FB. I called out homophobia numerous times in my life.

But I'm straight. People define their sexuality differently. For some "gay" means they are attracted to cis men and trans women who don't fully pass as female. For others, it means they are attracted to anyone who has a penis. For some other people, it means they are attracted to cis and passing trans men. People should be allowed to use the terms whatever they feel best describes their sexuality.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

You didn’t answer my questions

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

You're right. I answered most, but forgot the rest of the questions.

Why do so many males perpetuate ideas like estrogen use making them less intelligent, more emotional, and bad drivers?

Why do so many GCs perpetuate the idea that testosterone makes trans men more violent? Here are some Ovarit comments to prove it.

No, FTMs really are this repulsive and aggressive sometimes. Testosterone makes them fucking insane, IME. … FTMs are violent pieces of shit exactly like men. Testosterone turns them into literal monsters.

You do get a little boost in endogenous T and it does make you a little hornier, aggressive, oilier, and zitty-er ha ha.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

You think side effects that doctors warn them about are the same thing as men saying estrogen made them bad at maths?

Do you not see how one is a claim of an effect on mood and one is a claim of different cognitive abilities?

It’s known that hormones effect mood. It’s been observed for a long time. There is no evidence or reasonable cause to suspect that that estrogen alters ones ability to perform arithmetic.

You still did not answer and instead asked a question that’s not related to my question. Is this deliberate or what?

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

You think side effects that doctors warn them about are the same thing as men saying estrogen made them bad at maths?

In this case they weren't talking about the side effects that doctors warn about. They took examples of trans men being aggressive/violent and concluded it's the testosterone.

I have never heard any man say estrogen makes them bad at maths. All cis men have some estrogen, and all cis women have some testosterone.

However, there is a huge prejudice against women in math from all genders.

Both Genders Think Women Are Bad at Basic Math

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

You don’t need to have seen it for me to have seen it all over Reddit. Again, aggression is a side effect they are warned about prior to taking it. It’s a reasonable conclusion to draw.

What is it about directly answering questions that you hate so much you won’t do it?

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

If you have seen it all over Reddit, provide links and examples. What subs can you easily find content like this because I haven't seen it in the subs I browse.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Lol all the main trans ones.

It has to be deliberate the way you don’t answer questions. Nobody could be that oblivious

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Understandably, gender critical people often seem to believe that trans people share a lot of universal beliefs and attitudes about things, and many do, but that is the most common misconception that I see: assuming we all feel the same way about everything, or that we all have had the same experiences or upbringing. I think this is more common in people who haven't interacted with many different trans people.

There are other misconceptions about whether transwomen experience discrimination or misogyny in the same way that biological women do, like believing that does not happen. I can't really speak for misconceptions about transmen or nonbinary or androgynous people, other than all trans people often seem to get reduced to being fetishists, gay or both by GC people (among others). If there's truth in a belief, though, I'm not sure if it's a misconception.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

It drives me crazy on Ovarit. Some people there really seem to think all trans women are the same. And that the vast majority of them are bad.

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It's so annoying and frustrating, trans people do the same exact thing to GC radical feminists, too. In both cases it just comes across as immature and a bit petty, honestly. Ovarit seems to be changing a little bit in that it doesn't seem quite as full of that stuff as it was even at the beginning of the year--I see a lot more new usernames and a lot less old ones. Or it might just be my imagination!

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

There was one particularly aggressive post today that pissed me off. We complain so much about the negative actions of certain trans people, why the hell are we doing the exact same thing in reverse? It's tribalism. People like to break everything down in terms of "us vs. them."

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

YES. The irony and hypocrisy is just too much, it would be really funny if it wasn't real and people weren't being nasty to each other. I mentioned the medical aspect in a comment to Circling, but the other reason I kind of got fed up with r/truscum and r/transmedical was because they did the same thing bashing and complaining about tucutes (AKA other trans people) all day every day, but bashing and complaining about GC radfems being so needlessly hateful of trans people. That 'us vs them' mentality is so sad. I get venting, though, and how fed up a lot of people are where they just don't have the tolerance, but it really seems to lead to some toxic conversations and viewpoints when lots of furious people get together.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, a lot of online discourse these days can be summed up as furious people venting.

I have been accused of tone policing in the past, and I get that it's problematic to tell women to "be nice," but I feel like GC should conduct themselves in a way that makes it harder for people to pin negative labels on us. Granted, it may not work. J.K. Rowling was so nice and moderate and even believes in "true trans" and yet she's still being sent rape and death threats. But that doesn't mean we should stop trying, at least in my opinion.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why the double standars? When has being "nice" produced any result? How is some women venting on the internet any worse than what TRA do daily? See my reply to moremoss for some examples.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not worse, but why not be better than them? You can be firm without being cruel.

This thread for example is just plain nastiness for the sake of being nasty:

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/38307/new-acronym-dims

It does no good to our image and does not further the GC cause. There are times when it is important to be strident and even harsh. When protecting children from medical abuse, for example. This is not something like that. This does no good. And yeah, it was downvoted 6 times (once by me), but I'm disappointed to see it get so many upvotes along with further cruel comments.