What is gender nonconformity to you?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

Open question to everyone. Detailed descriptions if you please. Same question for gender conformity.

What is it? What does it look like? What does it feel like to you? Is it a deliberate act of adopting gender norms of the other sex or is it normal human preferences being expressed without the tightlacing gender puts out. Is aggressively adopting the norms of the opposite sex actually nonconforming?

Sorry for my lack of replies, I will get to them.

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[–]Penultimate_Penance 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gender Nonconformity is not doing or doing something different than what is expected of your sex by your culture.

*U.S. Culture Perspective: Mileage may vary since the U.S.A is a huge melting pot so this varies from community to community

All a Woman Needs to Do to be Gender Nonconforming is be her natural self which is crazy when you think about it. - Not Shaving - Not Wearing Makeup - Not Wearing Girly Clothing (That often falls apart after two washes)

Other ways women can be gender nonconforming - Going to college & gasp graduating! (I have actually been told repeatedly to not go to college and get married by my family) * Being competent at any field or hobby that is considered 'masculine'. * Being Assertive, Rude, Aggressive & Loud * Standing Up For Herself * Not putting others needs before her own * Not having kids * Not Marrying * Not Dating * Playing sports & gasp actually being competitive * Being Rational, Logical & Stoic * Actively Speaking instead of just listening. How Dare * Aging Naturally * Pursuing their dreams instead of being the support character in someone else's life * Being Angry (A lot of men prefer to believe women are 'crazy' instead of you know actually having very good reasons to be fucking furious)

This list could go on for a very long time. In summation women are expected to primp themselves so men have something nice to leer at and they are also expected to sacrifice their lives in service to their family, partners, friends & put men's needs above their own. And if they fail to live down to the society's widespread belief in women's inherent inferiority and prove themselves to be equal or better than the average man they are gender nonconforming.

Gender Roles/Sex Roles for women are bullshit. They're a straightjacket and any movement that embraces these gender roles is a sexist movement.

Edit: Formatting

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's precisely why the whole masculinity-femininity dichotomy doesn't work. Men are raised with useful, self-serving skills and allowed the freedom to be average and normal and not have their whole appearance and behaviour revolve around coddling and serving others. The patriarchy also makes sure that the world revolves around them while excluding women as aberrations. A woman who rejects femininity isn't "masculine" or "male" or "genderqueer". She is normal, something that always should've been the standard for women just as much as it is for men.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thankyou!

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Being unisex, gender neutral, androgynous to being extreme.

A woman allowing body (particularly facial) hair to grow for months/years is gnc. I'd also say that a man being completely hairless is also gnc but is acceptable... depending on his race/ethnicity (a hairless black man would likely get the most flak whereas an Asian man would likely get the least flak).

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for the reply!

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (70 children)

What does it look like?

Daryl Hall, 1970. The crowing touch is the shoes.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/photo-of-hall-oates-photo-by-michael-ochs-archives-getty-news-photo/74274399?adppopup=true

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

He’s GD beautiful not gonna lie

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, young Daryl certainly was a beaut. A great musician & singer too, & a truly electrifying stage presence. The H&O story is interesting too - they're the most successful recording duo in music history, but in the late 80s they ended up broke (Oates more so than Hall). From their start together in the late 60s, homophobes would deride H&O for seeming to be gay, but their response was always, "So what? What if we are? What would be wrong with that? And what's it to you?" They often made a point in their publicity stills to be shot so it would appear they might be as much a couple as a duo.

http://philadelphiacracksmeup.blogspot.com/2018/09/hall-oates-shotgun-marriage.html

DH looked good when glammed up in 1975 too: https://www.legacyrecordings.co.uk/news/vinyl-of-the-week-silver-album

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/hall-oates-they-said-who-do-these-guys-think-they-are-they-will-never-appear-on-tv-again-1.4590638

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (67 children)

An issue I have is that the Hall is being very mildly gender non conforming here.

The socially conservative might see this as wildly gender non conforming but I think most liberal people would see this as not boundary breaking.

I don't mean that gc is right wing by that. But I do mean the borders are often tighter.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

An issue I have is that the Hall is being very mildly gender non conforming here.

The socially conservative might see this as wildly gender non conforming but I think most liberal people would see this as not boundary breaking.

No one said Hall was "boundary breaking" here. He was ignoring the boundaries, coming across as oblivious of them, showing that they didn't matter to him at that particular moment in time. The question asked in the thread title was about "gender non-conformity," aka not complying to sex stereotypes; & I answered the one that asked "What does it look like?" specifically.

Your issue with my citing Daryl Hall in the early 1970s as an example of someone who by today's standards came across in certain photos as gender non-conforming & sex stereotype non-compliant seems to stem from you thinking that as a man who is "an actual straight crossdresser," you epitomize gender non-conformity & are this sub's utmost authority on the topic. But in a space where we don't get to see one another & only have words to go by, that's not the impression I get from your posts.

After all, you're the one, not "GC" posters like me, who constantly insists that all human societies & cultures always have had, & must have, very strict boundaries between how the two sexes dress, wear their hair, groom & behave. And you're the one, not GC, who says that all persons within any particular culture must & do abide by those very strict sex-stereotypes to the point that we base our entire personalities & entire lives down to the tiniest detail on them - & that no one ever pays little attention or no mind to them.

To you, the idea that some people might not define themselves according to strict sex stereotypes you hold so dear either doesn't compute, or if it does compute, must immediately be dismissed as exaggerated or made-up malarkey. Because it's only if there are strict sex-stereotyped boundaries, & everyone else constantly focuses on them & always adheres to them, that you personally can get the thrill & turn-on that some men obtain from breaking those boundaries. Or rather, from appearing to break those boundaries on a superficial level when, in fact, you & other men who get off on cross-dressing are actually bolstering those boundaries as you embrace & shore up regressive sex stereotypes & the fetishistic ideas many men have about women.

It seems to bother you immensely that the sex stereotypes which loom so large in your own life & you consider so profound & essential might be seen by others as silly, inconsequential & irrelevant to their own lives - & as regressive, pernicious & misogynistic to boot.

As for the lame attempt to smear "GC" as "socially conservative" and not" liberal" & to insinuate we are "right wing" - oh, c'mon. If anyone comes across as socially conservative, it's you, mate. The views I've seen you espouse on this sub about sex, sex stereotypes & women are so regressively sexist & antediluvian that they're right in line with the right-wing American cross-dressing men from decades ago described by Amy Bloom in "Conservative Men in Conservative Dresses."

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

I would not call Hall oblivious. Slightly ignoring boundaries perhaps.

We're here for debate. You make major claims about this topic and hypocritically complain when I make comments on it. Of course we're going to all make claims about gender. We are all making our claims. You have the right to it.

I do claim all cultures of a decent size have gender norms including expression. They might vary in form and their enforcement but they are there. I do ask for tolerance but I don't expect them to vanish.

I very much do not say the norms must be enforced or that people ought to follow a rigid form of them. That has never been my position. You are imagining that.

Of course I can think of people not conforming to gender norms. I can see androgynous expression in people.

Crossdressers are not setting the rules for men and women on gender. It's absurd to think that.

You want to discuss fetishist ideas men and women have about men and women?

I don't think GC is strictly right wing or conservative however it often takes similar positions, similar rhetoric and falls into alliances.

Amy Bloom in "Conservative Men in Conservative Dresses" does not describe all crossdressers. Are some crossdressers conservative? Of course. There are socially conservative gay people, I'd call them hypocrites.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Does someone have to be extreme to be non conforming?

Why does non conformity need to be groundbreaking to be nonconformity?

If a woman simply allows her body to remain natural she is seen as non conforming by many, with hairy legs and pits and brows, and without cosmetics.

Is she only gender nonconforming if she does that, and also wears sharply tailored men’s suits, wingtips, a haircut deemed manly, an aggressive personality and a mechanics degree? How many non conforming boxes must one tick before they are not conforming?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

I don't think a person has to be extreme to be gender non conforming. But the degrees seem to matter to society.

It's complicated by masculinity and femininity being different and therefore non conformity is different for the sexes.

Also as I see it, non conformity is more commonly allowed to be expressed socially by women. Though it appears less in the media. Where as male non conformity is expressed less in both.

The natural hair of women is true but then so is the natural hair's head hair.

The degree of non conformity is an interesting question. But it's very much one of those fuzzy logic, Sorites paradox situations. Surely we can agree on that even if we disagree on other issues?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

I’m not saying it’s got a finite limit. It seemed like you were saying it, when saying hall didn’t count because he isn’t extremely gnc.

Personally I think most people are gender non conforming and that the visual aspect of it is only a small part, considering that gender norms are used to so heavily control women’s behaviour in particular.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I am saying it's illustrative that "a good example" male of male gender non conformity is actually minor. It's also from 30/40 years ago.

I don't see how most people are gender non conforming. If that was the case gender wouldn't be the topic it is. Gender non conformity wouldn't be the issue it is.

Visual aspects are only one aspect but they are a regular aspect of it. Seems to be how gender works.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Well, more extreme examples of gnc males tend to be offensive and fetishised like drag queens or cross dressers. That fetishisation is extremely gender conforming for males despite them adopting an appearance they think is feminine.

I mean, some bloke wore a tuxedo gown to some dumb popular awards show, it’s hardly as though the example Twain gave is the only possible example. There are plenty of gnc men but of course you won’t see them if you think being gnc in attire is even a particularly large part of it.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I think "fetish" is being used wrongly here as a moral justification for objecting to drag queens and crossdressers.

The majority of the population sexualise masculinity and femininity. It's natural.

The language that morally condemns gnc males for a fetish is the exact same rhetoric used by ultra social conservatives to in the condemnation of gay men and women, including their gender expression.

There aren't plenty of gnc men by percentage.

It looks like GC's idea of acceptable gnc behaviour in men is what would be acceptable for a gnc woman. Maybe that makes consistent internal logical sense but it doesn't work outside of GC.

GC also then has to deal with internal disagreement over that.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Interesting claim, what do you mean by most people sexualise gender?

Do men get off on being loud and aggressive? Do they find trousers and short hair arousing? Are women super into being submissive according to you?

The judgement is fair imo. There is a shitty moral happening when a man thinks he’s cute and funny because he wears a gown and acts like a horrible caricature of a woman.

Gc accepts a variety of different forms of male expression, just not the handful where they mimic women and get aroused by it. What’s morally questionable about disliking the hypersexualised mockery of oneself?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Interesting claim, what do you mean by most people sexualise gender?

Asides from physical sexual characteristics, humans sexualise expressions of gender in a wider sense. But they aren't perfect reflections of each other.

If you look at porn, erotic and reported sexual fantasises of "the straights" you'll see plenty of gendered roles, narratives, behaviours and expressions.

Do you want me to read out the plots summaries of the erotic lit popular with women and the porn popular with men? This is very clear. It's not that men and women are completely different but there are sizable biases.

What’s morally questionable about disliking the hypersexualised mockery of oneself?

Because this isn't all about you. Because you don't get to dictate other people's sexuality.

I think social conservatives calling lesbians a mockery of men, unnatural and perverted are making a moral mistake. They often take disgust and make it an moral issue.

Gender non conformity is going to have sexual aspects too.

GC takes calls male gnc sexual behaviour perverted, fetishistic and a mockery.

But doesn't seem to comment on female gnc sexual behaviour.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What does it look like? What does it feel like to you?

Todd Rundgren on US TV show "The Midnight Special" 1973. The video's worth watching; Rundgren is a brilliant artist & this is one of the greatest rock love songs ever. Note also that the lyrics aren't sex specific.

https://thebosshog.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/todd-rundgren-hello-its-me-the-midnight-special-1973/

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think once it becomes something you can label it becomes a new thing to conform to. Every person has behaviors that can be labeled by others as either gender conforming or gender non-conforming, when they probably should be labeled efficient or task-appropriate or artful or graceful any number of other ways. The same behaviors could easily be labeled gender conforming by one person and as gender non-conforming by another. It is a stupid concept because gender is a social construct and thus not innate or anything natural at all. Giving birth and breast feeding would be sex-conforming, gender is irrelevant.

[–]grixitperson 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Noncomformity is not automatically adopting every personality trait that someone claims you should based on your sex. In other words, it is another way of saying "normal".

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I maintain that it has to be immediately visible to others. Visibly GNC people get treated very differently in society than conforming people do.

There are GNC personality traits and hobbies, of course, but those don't get you attacked or harassed in public because strangers don't know about them.

For me, being a GNC woman means presenting the same way a man my age would. Not because I get pleasure out of it, but because it's the only way I'm comfortable and the only way I can tolerate life in this society. If I were forced to be feminine, I would be suicidal. It's not something I'm proud of or happy about. I don't know where it comes from. Logically, a piece of cloth is a piece of cloth. It shouldn't matter if someone forced me into a dress. But for whatever reason, it does. Other people may not feel as strongly and would be able to switch back and forth with no problem.

[–]FlanJam 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The way I see it, gender noncomformity is going against the gender-roles/norms/etc of your sex. A good example is An San, the recent Korean gold medalist in archery. She's been getting a lot of shit from anti-feminists in korea for her short haircut. Gender nonconformity isn't just limited to fashion tho, I think it could also apply to mannerisms and behavior.

Is it a deliberate act of adopting gender norms of the other sex or is it normal human preferences being expressed without the tightlacing gender puts out.

Could be either or, different people have different motivations.

Is aggressively adopting the norms of the opposite sex actually nonconforming?

Yes in that they are not conforming to their sex roles. But now they are conforming to the opposite sex roles, which still reinforces those gender-norms in a way. So it feels rather unnatural.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thankyou!

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What is it?

My broadest interpretation is that gender nonconformity as a whole is anything that subverts widely held expectations, unconscious or not, that are based on beliefs about biological sex that have nothing to do with physiological differences between women and men. I see gender conformity as an adherence to such expectations, however that may manifest.

What does it look like?

Gender nonconformity can look like a lot of different things, whether through fashion, beauty, language, mannerisms, hobbies. When speaking of someone being GNC, it seems like it's a broad combination of characteristics for many GNC people. The subversion appears to often come across as something unusual or irregular via feelings of surprise, shock, confusion, disgust, curiosity and other feelings that at least momentarily stop the self-talk that would otherwise go unnoticed. Gender conformity is something that most people don't seem to notice or consciously pay attention to; it appears so mundane that instead we focus on the details about something or someone without (usually) consciously thinking about or attributing it to biological sex or sex role stereotypes.

What does it feel like to you?

It feels like nothing--it feels natural. But I used to feel bad about it because it was the reason I was harassed and bullied so much before transitioning. Just the thought of having to be seen by most in society as an exceptionally feminine man again makes me feel anxious and nervous. So, it feels normal, but as a by-product of not meeting society's expectations about males that leads to negative consequences and outcomes, it makes me feel bad about myself.

For me personally, it is a bit complex since I don't believe I'm really viewed as gender nonconforming so much anymore since most people who don't know my history seem to believe I'm female. So I suppose my female-attributed characteristics, traits or mannerisms don't draw attention to myself. One of the biggest reasons I transitioned was so I could fit in better, so what would be considered GNC expression otherwise is just unremarkable.

Is it a deliberate act of adopting gender norms of the other sex or is it normal human preferences being expressed without the tightlacing gender puts out

An expression of gender nonconformity could be deliberate, but I think at its heart it really is about natural human preferences.

Is aggressively adopting the norms of the opposite sex actually nonconforming?

I suppose it might depend on who you ask and what the intent is in doing such things. Adopting norms of the opposite sex would be nonconforming from the perspective of the 'original' sex, but then it would be gender conforming from the perspective of the opposite sex, maybe. I guess when you say 'aggressively adopting' my first feelings are that it isn't naturally gender nonconforming in the slightest.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think when people use the phrase it's generally referring to enacting behaviours that are usually associated with the opposite sex.

These behaviours can be a universal or culturally defined. This can include personality elements, expression, roles.

One element isn't likely to make a person gender non conforming. But a collection will.

I don't think you can choose your desires and suppression comes with psychological distress.

Aggressively adopting the norms of the opposite sex is nonconforming, but it is conforming to the opposite sex norms. It isn't escaping gender. I believe that quite strongly.

Very gender non conforming people can appear to be stereotypes of the opposite sex. But I think that's unfair on anyone who expresses it of either sex. Especially non conforming people as I don't think they actively choose it as a moral decision.

But then gender is a social thing. Humans are social animals and gender is part of that social interaction.

I hope you don't mind me replying I know I can infuriate you.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For women gender nonconformity seems to be being assertive, brave, have intersts in things over people, not liking make up or dresses, having a goofy sense of humor; and for men I would say being nurturing, taking care of their appearance, being a people pleaser and caring about people over things. IK think in modern society though we are becoming less strict, and most people woulld probably not truely see someone as gender nonconforming unless they went out of their way to defy stereotypes.

[–]Juniperius 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Having better things to do.

What is astrological nonconformity to you?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry, I dont quite follow? Gender is as irrelevant as astrology? I agree with that.