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[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Interesting claim, what do you mean by most people sexualise gender?

Asides from physical sexual characteristics, humans sexualise expressions of gender in a wider sense. But they aren't perfect reflections of each other.

If you look at porn, erotic and reported sexual fantasises of "the straights" you'll see plenty of gendered roles, narratives, behaviours and expressions.

Do you want me to read out the plots summaries of the erotic lit popular with women and the porn popular with men? This is very clear. It's not that men and women are completely different but there are sizable biases.

What’s morally questionable about disliking the hypersexualised mockery of oneself?

Because this isn't all about you. Because you don't get to dictate other people's sexuality.

I think social conservatives calling lesbians a mockery of men, unnatural and perverted are making a moral mistake. They often take disgust and make it an moral issue.

Gender non conformity is going to have sexual aspects too.

GC takes calls male gnc sexual behaviour perverted, fetishistic and a mockery.

But doesn't seem to comment on female gnc sexual behaviour.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Porn isn’t a reflection of gender norms lmao. I’m talking about the expectations like men are strong, women are nurturing, men are assertive, women are incapable of leadership not goddamn porn.

Why does everything come back to erotica with you?

Do you not see how gender norms exist outside of pornography?

Disliking how someone presents their sexual proclivities in public isn’t dictating their sexuality. How is disliking it when a man wears a grown and calls himself strawberry lemonade and makes jokes about women being mean and awful dictating to him whether he is straight/gay/bi? Dresses is not a sexuality.

We don’t comment on the sexual behaviour of anyone who doesn’t insert it into our lives when we don’t want it. It just so happens that men are the most invested in inserting their sexual behaviour into discussions and women’s spaces.

You don’t seem to recognise anything gnc that isn’t sexual and it’s so weird. Gendered socialisation happens to babies, saying boys like trucks and don’t cry. is that about a sexual kink? Can you talk about any topic without shoehorning it into sex and fetishes? It feels like you talk about that and nothing else.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I don't think porn is perfect brainwashing that programmes people's brains to act in a certain way. The relationship details are unclear but a lot of it is serving desires not creating them.

Why do I think that? Because the pattern is so consistent and the pattern of changing people's desires through porn is weak.

Sounds like I do need to read you the plots to erotic that is popular with women. The lit is full of sexualized forms of masculinity.

Why does everything come back to erotica with you?

I was explicitly talking about the sexual elements of gender. It's literally the topic. Of course I'm going to talk about porn, erotica, sexual fantasies, desires and everything related.

Do you not see how gender norms exist outside of pornography?

Of course and I don't think sexuality all comes down to pornography. I think pornography reflects sexuality possibly more than it informs it because I don't think humans especially on drives likes sex are blank.

Disliking how someone presents their sexual proclivities in public isn’t dictating their sexuality.

This is basically back to "gay people need to keep in the bedroom stuff."

You think heterosexual conforming people don't show any sexuality in public? That there is no sexual display at all?

How is disliking it when a man wears a grown and calls himself strawberry lemonade and makes jokes about women being mean and awful dictating to him whether he is straight/gay/bi? Dresses is not a sexuality.

You are disingenuously mixing up dresses with misogyny here. They are different things.

By this reasoning everyone should be masculine.

We don’t comment on the sexual behaviour of anyone who doesn’t insert it into our lives when we don’t want it. It just so happens that men are the most invested in inserting their sexual behaviour into discussions and women’s spaces.

Again you are jumping between topics. Again this is a common socially conservative talking point. "Why won't the gay men stop inserting their perversion into our lives." You are using arguments used by social conservatives against gay people on trans people to complain about gnc males that aren't in women's spaces. Crossdressers do not identify as women. Billy Porter in a gown is not in women's spaces.

You don’t seem to recognise anything gnc that isn’t sexual and it’s so weird.

Yes I recognise non sexual gnc things. But we are discussing sexual aspects of gender.

You are also a person who likes to discuss sex and gender. That's why you are here.

Gendered socialisation happens to babies, saying boys like trucks and don’t cry. is that about a sexual kink? Can you talk about any topic without shoehorning it into sex and fetishes? It feels like you talk about that and nothing else.

We are discussing gender non conformity and sexuality is always going to be part of gender the debate.

When these topics come up gc puts it's blinkers on. All it can see is people doing things it doesn't like completely ignoring the majority of sexuality going on.

I'm here defending gnc men in their gnc sexuality. I'd also defend all gnc people and their gnc sexualities.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What the fuck? What is that tangent about porn? I made the topic and I can assure you porn didn’t even come into the initial question.

I asked if you understand that porn is not all there is to gender norms and you come back with..whatever that was

You ok bud?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Porn, erotica and sexual fantasies are relevant to discussing gender and sexuality.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not when I’ve continually said that’s not what I’m trying to talk about. Why are you so obsessed with it goddamn dude. Gender norms existed before fucking pornography did, and plenty exist that have nothing to do with porn or erotica. No woman needs or wants you to describe the plots of the porno you consume.

One discussion where you don’t talk about porn would be amazing

[–]BiologyIsReal¡Vamos Argentina tricampeón del mundo! 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Having boundaries is not the same as being conservative. If I'm at a restaurant and a couple start having sex right there, I would told them to get a room. I don't care if it a straight couple or a gay one because I didn't consent to a porn spectacle. If they say they need to have public sex in order to get off, too bad, they will have to find a willing audience. If they can't do that because they get off on getting other people uncomfortable, then I would judge them as the perverts they are.

And you don't need to tell anyone about any porn plot. Can't you have a conversation that doesn't involve porn for once?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Having boundaries is not the same as being conservative.

So what is the policy implication of this?

Can't you have a conversation that doesn't involve porn for once?

Sure we can talk about reported fantasies.

[–]BiologyIsReal¡Vamos Argentina tricampeón del mundo! 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So what is the policy implication of this?

You're acting like TRAs here. TRAs say that GC people are socially conservative because conservatives also recognizes there are only two sexes. Nevermind any differences between ideologies. You say GC people are using conservative talking points because conservative people critizes pornography and certain sexual practices too. You're no recognizing the differences in our arguments and reasonings.

Sure we can talk about reported fantasies.

Wow! Way to completely miss the point, dude! OP has said she intended this thread to be about gender nonconformoty in general. You're the only who keep focusing on sex because apparently you cannot dissociate gender non-conformity or conformity with the sexual act.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Leaving aside narrow trans topics. I think GC has at least two camps. One more radical and one more socially conservative. But they often both overlap with a conservative position on men.

I recall watching a video of a butch gc woman mocking transwomen. It was very focused on complaining about the femininity of those people. If it was a man talking it would easily fit into the category of a masculine man mocking femininity in men.

I'm for gender non conformity in men and women. But that pattern is going to include men doing things that are the very things gc women on the radical side are often looking to escape from.

Way to completely miss the point, dude!

Sexuality is part of gender norms.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If it was a man talking

It wasn’t a man though. I don’t know why so many men think the “what if the genders were reversed” thought experiment which always ignores the context of all of history and present culture is smart or useful

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

What are you basing the idea that porn reflects natural desire on? Do women who have rape fantasies have an innate desire to be raped?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I don't think human desires are all perfect politically correct and morally justifiable.

I do think women on average are likely to find dominant men attractive. There are perhaps dark edges to that bias.

To me that explains a lot of consistent human behaviour. That's what I see from the evidence.

It's not the world as I would choose it.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

So yes, you do think some women have an innate desire to be raped.

That’s what I see from the evidence

If you’re gonna claim there is evidence that porn represents natural desire you better provide that evidence.

It’s not the world as I would choose it

🙄

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I don't think they desire to be raped no.

But people do have anti social sexual fantasies that they do not want in reality.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I thought you had evidence that porn tastes represent natural desires? Where is it? Because now you’re saying some porn tastes do and some don’t. How are women supposed to know which of their porn tastes represent natural desire or not? Do we just have to ask you?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Well take sexual fantasies. They are consistent enough to be categorized and widely shared. I don't think human sexuality is completely blank. I think it follows repeating and common patterns that you can see in regular sex surveys in social science. If human sexuality was completely blank I think it would vary more. People are prone to certain desires within a spectrum.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Rape fantasies are consistent and common, but you've said they aren't natural. So again, I'm asking you for the evidence that other consistent and common fantasies are natural. Being consistent and common can't be the proof in of itself because you've admitted not all consistent and common fantasies are natural.

It's pretty weird that you think the only two options are that fantasies involving gender roles are natural or that human sexuality is totally blank. Like there is a whole spectrum in between those two extremes, your obsession with challenging the blank slate to the point where you will insert the idea in every debate even if literally no one else has is so weird.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Rape fantasies are consistent and common

What do you think is going on with that?

It's pretty weird that you think the only two options are that fantasies involving gender roles are natural or that human sexuality is totally blank.

I do think it's a mix. There is an interaction between nature nurture.

I just see humans have a strong tendency to sexualise power. Maybe that's at it's widest interpretation. Is that unrealistic?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

What do you think is going on with that?

I think it's a trauma response. I would say the same thing about fantasies involving gender roles though, as female socialization is traumatic for many if not most women and girls.

I just see humans have a strong tendency to sexualise power.

Even if this is natural, which you clearly have no evidence that it is, it's still a leap from this to fantasies about power in a gender context specifically being natural.