all 70 comments

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex based rights for women. Discrimination protection for women and transgender individuals. Nobody can be fired or denied housing or medicine or services because of their sex or gender ID. Gender ID cannot be used to get around women’s rights. Third bathrooms/changing rooms and dedicated transgender shelters mandated and publicly funded.

Males attempting to encroach on women’s spaces are treated as criminals, not rewarded for stepping on human rights.

Conversion therapy wrapped up in ‘genital preferences’ is recognised as a hatecrime against homosexual people.

School curriculum drops the genderbread person and all other programs from awful orgs like mermaids and Tavistock. Encouraging the idea that gender nonconformity means trans is treated as child grooming not applauded in the media.

Drag shows are unfortunately tolerated but will be absolutely off limits to children. It can stay in the seedy clubs where perverted sexist ‘humour’ lives.

ID reflects sex, with a marker for transitioners indicating they are a transgender male in the case of transwomen, or transgender female for transmen.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Gender Identity should be treated like a subjective religious belief, because that is what it is. We can make reasonable accommodations for it in law much in the same way we do for religious people. Example

Other than that Gender Identitarians should have the same human rights as anyone else, but no special privileges. Single sex spaces should remain just that, single sex and based on objective verifiable reality not subjective 'gender identity'.

As for cosmetic surgeries, people who believe in Gender Identitarianism should pay for those with their own wallets. Every person who has a real life threatening or debilitating illnesses should be put in line first before even considering paying for unnecessary cosmetic surgeries with public funds. What should be provided for everyone is mental healthcare whenever they need it and ideally we would also have universal healthcare, but that seems to be a pipe dream in the U.S.

We need new laws to require researchers to gather sex disaggregated data for their studies especially when it comes to healthcare.

We also need laws that require researchers to test an equal amount of women & men (and make sure to sex disaggregate the data) for new drugs & disease treatments, because how a disease/drug affects one sex can be drastically different in the opposite sex.

Women need specialized laws/rights that specifically protect our bodily autonomy relating to pregnancy. Male politicians have catastrophically failed to take women's needs into account, it's time to get more women in politics so laws that take the reality of female bodies are a priority and not an afterthought in law.

This one is debatable, but having 50% gender quotas in all political positions could profoundly improve women's lives. Our needs and our issues have gone ignored too long. Men and that includes transwomen have failed to adequately represent women's interest in government. It is long past time for women to get equal representation in the most powerful positions in the land.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

Gender Identity should be treated like a subjective religious belief, because that is what it is.

Obviously I fundamentally disagree that my identity is religious in any way.

Single sex spaces should remain just that, single sex and based on objective verifiable reality not subjective 'gender identity'..

Absent third spaces this renders trans women intractably unsafe.

As for cosmetic surgeries, people who believe in Gender Identitarianism should pay for those with their own wallets. Every person who has a real life threatening or debilitating illnesses should be put in line first before even considering paying for unnecessary cosmetic surgeries with public funds. What should be provided for everyone is mental healthcare whenever they need it and ideally we would also have universal healthcare, but that seems to be a pipe dream in the U.S.

Transition care isn’t considered cosmetic. It’s therapeutic. And given economic realities of being trans this would essentially be a de facto ban on medical transition.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Who should be first in line for public funding: a diabetic who needs insulin shots to not literally fucking die or someone who has mental health issues who 'needs' cosmetic surgeries? How is it not a slap in the face to those people for a man who claims to be a women to get public funding for his fake breasts for free, but if they miss a paycheck and can't get money in time they will literally die?

Will trans identified individuals die if they don't facial feminization surgery, fake breasts and wrong sex hormones? The answer to that is a definitive no they will not die. This is a matter of priorities more than anything.

I suffer excruciating debilitating pain every month most likely because of endometriosis. Public funding for similar conditions to that should also be prioritized over cosmetic surgeries.

How we should prioritize public health funding: Life or Death > Debilitating Illnesses (Including Mental Illnesses) > Cosmetic Surgeries

As long as diabetics insulin shots aren't being paid for by public funds trans 'affirmative care' should not be paid for either.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Who should be first in line for public funding: a diabetic who needs insulin shots to not literally fucking die or someone who has mental health issues who 'needs' cosmetic surgeries? How is it not a slap in the face to those people for a man who claims to be a women to get public funding for his fake breasts for free, but if they miss a paycheck and can't get money in time they will literally die?

Both. Insulin should be free or extremely cheap because it’s necessary and actually not expensive to produce. But of course that is getting into a larger flaws of the health system discussion.

Will they die? Probably not without ffs or a breast enhancement but without hormones? Yes in many cases. I personally was at the point of Jill myself or give up and transition. It’s that bad.

Trans affirming care isn’t cosmetic. It’s therapeutic. It’s not unimportant or unnnecessary just because you don’t like it. At least hormones and bottom surgery are undeniably therapeutic.

They should both be paid for.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (26 children)

Give me what I demand or I'll commit suicide is unacceptable. You won't die without wrong sex hormones. Anyone who chooses to commit suicide that is 100% on them. Society isn't obligated to cave in to classic abuser manipulative tactics and this is coming from someone who spent many years feeling suicidal. You know what I never did, because I'm not an entitled manipulative abusive asshole? I never once threatened to commit suicide if I didn't get my way. I kept it to myself and dealt with my own shit. My problems were mine to solve, at no point was I so entitled to think that society at large was obligated to cater to me. (This is a telling difference between male and female socialization. Women are much more likely to internalize their problems and men tend to externalize their problems.)

If someone is in an abusive relationship are they obligated to stay in said relationship if the abuser tells them that they'll commit suicide if they leave? If a 100 million men threaten to kill themselves if we don't allow them to rape women should we cave in and give them what they want? If a trans person says they'll commit suicide if society doesn't pay for their 'affirmative' cosmetic surgeries and wrong sex hormone treatments that will more often than not turn them into a lifelong medical patient and a burden on society until the day they die am I obligated to prioritize them above people with lethal diseases and real physical disabilities? Not being able to accept your perfectly healthy body the way it is, is a mental health issue not a physical issue.

Destroying a perfectly healthy body to make it vaguely resemble the opposite sex is not a social good. It's not an individual good either. I prioritize making unhealthy bodies whole over destroying perfectly healthy natural bodies with my tax dollars.

Public funds are limited. People are literally dying (not abusively threatening suicide actually fucking dying) because they cannot afford even the most basic medical care. Poor kids are dying in the United States, because they cannot afford to go to the dentist.. Universal healthcare for all should not be sidelined by trans entitlement.

I've gone without any healthcare for years, because I cannot afford it, so I have a really hard time feeling any sympathy whatsoever for people who threaten to commit suicide if they don't get wrong sex hormones that will wreck their body. You know what's more important than that? The millions of women suffering from excruciating pain every single goddamn month. I can't even understand what people are saying to me level of pain. I can't identify out of that pain. (And yes the pain often gets so bad that I do feel suicidal, sometimes just ending it seems worth it so I don't have to go through one more second of the pain.) I'll just have to suffer through it until I hit menopause and I'll likely never be able to afford to treat it, but go on keep on moaning about how you can't accept your body the way it is and how having a body you don't like is such a tragedy.

You know that there are people with genetic disorders who suffer excruciating pain 360 days out of the year who cannot afford treatment right? If you have a healthy functioning body that works be grateful. A lot of us aren't that lucky. If the severely disabled can accept their bodies and make the best out of a shitty situation why can't you? Why should we accept you if you can't even accept yourself? Society can't make you love yourself, only you can do that.

Trans people need mental healthcare more than anything and they need to learn to accept themselves as they are. Having a healthy body is important, wrecking it chasing after a pipe dream is ill advised. 'Affirmative surgeries & hormones' is today's lobotomy. We'll look back at this point in history with shame. So many people will suffer the horrific potentially debilitating consequences of unnecessary surgeries and wrong sex hormones and there will be no going back for them, the damage is irreparable. It's a goddamn tragedy and absolutely no one should be encouraged to go that route. Trans people are hurting themselves and I for one am not willing to foot the bill for their self inflicted demise, especially when there are millions people who do have physical illnesses that desperately need care.

[–]ausernamee 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Treating dysphoria with horomones is similar to treating other mental illnesses with psychiatric drugs.

For most mental illness, psychoanalysis provided legitimate relief from suffering.

These are the two options we have for treating dysphoria. It's not the best oprtion for most mentally ill people to alter their brain function and cross your fingers and check in with therapy. Psychoactive meds aren't curing anything either, they're just severing some connections hoping to snap you our of a pattern of behavior. Psychoanalysis would be the more gentle approach with less harm. But it's a lot cheaper for pills.

If trans people must be treated, I think the insurance companies are deciding that it's a lot cheaper for a quick fix surgery than for 5000 hours of psychotherapy

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

It’s not a threat it’s a reality. Dysphoria is a crushing and miserable life. Not being able to have treatment when you live in constant misery makes people Jill themselves. It’s not a stunt, it’s a pain response. It’s not “abuser tactics” or “threats”. If you are hopeless and can’t get treatment for being miserable there’s a good chance you kill yourself. That’s not unique to trans people.

Just because it’s a mental health issue doesn’t mean it isn’t medical in treatment. Antidepressants address a mental health issue. It’s still necessary medical treatment.

Destroying a perfectly healthy body to make it vaguely resemble the opposite sex is not a social good. It's not an individual good either. I prioritize making unhealthy bodies whole over destroying perfectly healthy natural bodies with my tax dollars.

My body isn’t destroyed. It’s better. I got to shed the mascot suit I was forced to wear and feel like a person. And in doing so I’m healthier than I ever was. Because sleep and good nutrition and personal care come a hell of a lot easier when you don’t want to die. You act like a body is destroyed if it’s genitalia fail. It’s not destroyed, it ain’t even broken.

It’s not a threat. Without treatment many trans people hit a wall where they need to transition or just stop the pain. I was there and I’m not the only one. I literally was going to kill myself if I couldn’t find a way to transition. I didn’t communicate it to anyone. But it was get on estrogen or Jill myself. That’s not a threat. It’s the reaction or someone in pain who may be told there will never be relief.

Universal healthcare isn’t being caught up by trans people it’s being held up by the health insurance lobby. Even you can’t have enough of a tinfoil hat to blame us for that level or corporate greedy

I've gone without any healthcare for years, because I cannot afford it, so I have a really hard time feeling any sympathy whatsoever for people who threaten to commit suicide if they don't get wrong sex hormones that will wreck their body. You know what's more important than that? The millions of women suffering from excruciating pain every single goddamn month. I can't even understand what people are saying to me level of pain. I can't identify out of that pain. (And yes the pain often gets so bad that I do feel suicidal, sometimes just ending it seems worth it so I don't have to go through one more second of the pain.) I'll just have to suffer through it until I hit menopause and I'll likely never be able to afford to treat it, but go on keep on moaning about how you can't accept your body the way it is and how having a body you don't like is such a tragedy.

That’s terrible. You should be able to get treatment. But so should we. Single payer needs to happen but it’s not trans people stopping it. I’m not even saying everything needs to be covered but hormones and bottom surgery are at least undeniably medical and need to be covered.

You know that there are people with genetic disorders who suffer excruciating pain 360 days out of the year who cannot afford treatment right?

Also terrible. Also should have treatment. Also not exclusive to trans people getting treatment. Trans people represent a tiny fraction of the population. And many of us don’t want bottom surgery. Without the cost deflation that comes with single payer mine ran about 40000 before insurance. A one time expenditure that ultimately improved my physical health in a way that probably paid for itself in lack of need tor future treatments. This isn’t some crushing number and again only a tiny fraction of the population is applying it and it would defer other health costs. Or hell orchiectomy serves the hormonal purpose and is 10 percent the cost and the with no GA risk. Why not cover that?

If you have a healthy functioning body that works be grateful. A lot of us aren't that lucky. If the severely disabled can accept their bodies and make the best out of a shitty situation why can't you? Why should we accept you if you can't even accept yourself? Society can't make you love yourself, only you can do that.

Therapy doesn’t treat dysphoria effectively. That’s why transition exists at all. If conversion therapy worked on us society would never allow us to be a ourselves. I fixed my body. I accept my body now. It’s as good as I can make it. That’s the difference. A chronically disabled person may use a mobility aid or pain control or whatever else. And if they have a medically correctable condition they may need to correct it for quality of life. That’s what transition is. You can’t fathom how horrific it is to feel so disgusting and monstrous and every second of every day. To not be able to look in a mirror or shower in the light out or sheer gut wrenching disgust and wrongness. It’s constant unending psychic torture. If some cheap pills and a quick snip can give someone a life worth living why is that bad? Why is someone finding peace and ending their pain an affront to you? This is us”making the best of a shitty situation”.

Trans people need mental healthcare more than anything and they need to learn to accept themselves as they are. Having a healthy body is important, wrecking it chasing after a pipe dream is ill advised.

Our bodies aren’t wrecked. They’re fixed.

Affirmative surgeries & hormones' is today's lobotomy. We'll look back at this point in history with shame.

Lobotomies were for compliance not subjective improvement. Transition literally makes people better mentally. Comparing the two is offensive to those who whiny through both.

Transition isn’t demise. We are truly alive for the first time once we transition. Transition is an unfortunate necessity because society will never really accept us, but it’s a positive outcome. I am better. We are better. We aren’t dead or broken.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Giving anorexics free liposuctions is wrong. Cutting off the limb/s of people with Body Integrity Identity Disorder is wrong. Damaging healthy bodies of people with sex dysphoria is also wrong.

Crazy idea, but how about we treat people with mental health problems with mental health treatment. Not cater to their current inability to accept reality.

You may very well be one of those people in these 20 year studies who has to face up to the devastating long term consequences of physically transitioning and I don't wish that on anyone. In many of the studies people were initially happy but years down the line the dysphoria wasn't actually cured and they had to deal with the dysphoria and a body that was wrecked by unnecessary hormones and surgery. Surgeries are a big fucking deal and they should not ever be done casually. A person can easily end up suffering from chronic pain & disability for the rest of their life, because of them. Hormones are also a big deal and can have horrible even lethal health consequences in the long run. There are a lot of unknowns and every transgender person who uses wrong sex hormones is effectively a guinea pig participating in a long term unethical medical experiment. Unnecessary surgeries and hormones should absolutely be hard to get. There should be gatekeeping involved.

This isn't coming from a position of hate. It's coming from a serious consideration of medical ethics and how people with mental health issues ought to be treated and cared for by society. Sometimes the kindest most ethical thing society and individuals can do for a person with a mental health issue is to say no. No I will not help you cut your own arm off. No I will not help you starve yourself to death. No I will not help you get wrong sex hormones and unnecessary surgeries that will destroy and/or remove perfectly healthy body parts.

These articles cite legitimate sources about how transition is not the best treatment and often does more harm than good without solving the underlying issue, because body dysmorphia is a mental health problem not a physical health problem. A perfectly healthy male or female body is not a problem, refusal to accept that reality is. Trans people should get evidence based health care, not ideological wishful thinking healthcare.

Transition as Treatment: The Best Studies Show the Worst Outcomes

Transgenderism: A Pathogenic Meme "The idea that one’s sex is a feeling, not a fact, has permeated our culture and is leaving casualties in its wake. Gender dysphoria should be treated with psychotherapy, not surgery."

Correction: Transgender Surgery Provides No Mental Health Benefit "The American Journal of Psychiatry has issued a major correction to a recent study. The Bränström study reanalysis demonstrated that neither “gender-affirming hormone treatment” nor “gender-affirming surgery” reduced the need of transgender-identifying people for mental health services. Fad medicine is bad medicine, and gender-anxious people deserve better."

Insuring Rights for “Wrong” Bodies

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

Correction to Bränström and Pachankis "the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care"

“Transitioning” Procedures Don’t Help Mental Health, Largest Dataset Shows

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

You can’t cure dysphoria with normal mental health care. It doesn’t work. If it did they wouldn’t let us transition. Much of society would prefer there be no such thing as trans women.

Hormone therapy has been going for near 80 years. It’s not experimental or unethical. I’m not against some measure of reasonable psychiatric gatekeeping but for the people that need it, transition is the one and only effective treatment.

Transition isn’t destruction. It’s fixing a broken person. The alternative is unending unendurable suffering. That’s what you are arguing for, unchecked suffering.

Transition is the one thing that works. You are arguing for snake oil for the suffering when real effective treatments exist.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Much of society would prefer there be no such thing as trans women.

I don't think so. Society finds it much easier to understand a man who rejects masculinity because he feels he's a woman than a man who rejects it because...well, just because.

You are arguing for snake oil for the suffering when real effective treatments exist.

Alternatives should be looked into when said "treatment" involves healthy body part amputations, plastic surgeries and a lifetime taking hormones not meant for your body, either repressing or destroying your body's normal healthy hormonal production.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I believe studies over one person's anecdotes.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Even based on what circling says in the sub, "transition" doesn't seem to have resolve much of circling's problems.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

And the countless studies that lead to transition being accepted in the first place? The studies from like 2 years ago showing that parents supporting a trans teenagers identity lead to substantially improved mental health? You are at brietbart levels of tinfoil if you honest believe this.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

First of all, repeal the gender identity law, amend any law that uses language not based in reality and correct any incorrect sex data. Amend laws and policies that use the phrase “gender based violence” to something that reflect sexism and misogyny are sex-based.

No more legal "sex changes". Nobody can change their sex and official documents should not state falsehoods. No more males accessing single-sex spaces for women. No one should be required to use “preferred pronouns”.

Building of third spaces would depend on whether they will actually be used.

Write the Nordic model into law and in practice.

Invest in public education in general. Improve sex ed, which should be factual and age-appropriate. Add a subject at high school to study the basics of how science works, philosophy of science, differences between science, pseudoscience and religion, how to recognize a cult, and logic. Encourage critical thinking.

Invest in public health in general. More research in women’s health and in sex differences.

Invest in mental health using a scientific approach. Research and psychological support on gender dysphoria, which should be renamed to something like sex dysphoria, and de-transition.

Hormonal or surgical intervention for trans identified minors would be prohibited. If the adults want those intervention be covered up by the health system, they should provide evidence that they improve mental health first. There is too many problems in this country to be wasting money on treatments that don’t work. Doctors who provide such interventions should use reality based language and be absolutely clear about how the health risks involved, how the patient won’t actually change sex and how they won’t be legally treated as the opposite sex.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The inclusion of the Nordic model is really important. Totally agree.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Amend laws and policies that use the phrase “gender based violence” to something that reflect sexism and misogyny are sex-based.

I have to push back a little bit on the misogyny part. I understand that misogyny is intended to be sex based, and maybe it’s okay to define it that way legally, but if someone is believed to be female, they will experience misogyny (even if it’s misplaced). I’ve experienced extremely overt and less overt misogyny many many times over the years and I feel like it’s just a nonsense belief to say that doesn’t happen because of trait that isn’t visible to the men to perpetuate it. I’ve experience too much in my life to be convinced otherwise. It shapes my life. I do think it’s only stealth transwomen who experience it and declaring yourself a woman isn’t going to make that happen. Visibly or out transwomen are either treated with hostility or (more often where I am) like super special males who everyone changes their language for and showers with compliments to help them feel better.

I agree with most of the other things you said, especially moving to the Nordic model.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I just really want to move beyond the word "gender" because I think it has only made things more confusing. Not to mention it's a cultural import from English speaking countries, like a good bunch of Spanish "inclusive language". TRAs are constantly talking about being anti-imperialist and against colonization, but I cannot unsee the influences from English speaking countries in Latin American TRA.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Okay, that makes sense! Gender is confusing and I can understand not liking it as part of language, especially if it’s coming from outside. I feel like we need some way to talk about sex stereotypes or roles assigned to people based on sex, but gender is used so many different ways maybe it’s not the best way to do it. I’m a native English speaker so how I think about it is probably shaped by that, but what do you feel like good ways are for discussing those things without words like gender?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Spanish is a gendered language: nouns, adjectives, articles and some pronouns are either masculine or feminine. When is not linked to sex, the gender of a word is arbitrary. The gender of a word doens't reflect on what society deems as masculinity and femininity either. For example, the noun mesa (the Spanish word for table) is femenine, but that doesn't mean Spanish speakers think tables are inherently feminine. Hopefully I'm making sense here. I know from talking with English speakers learning Spanish that gender is something they find confusing (gender related mistakes are pretty common among them).

Anyway, all this introduction was to say that I grew up thinking about gender as something purely grammatical. I started hearing about gender as related to feminism sometime about mid 2000's and early 2010's (I can't recall an exact date). Though, likely it was started to be used this way earlier than that, just not as widespread. I didn't think much about it at the beginning. After all, there are many Spanish neologisms derived from English.

However, this past year I have become more and more frustrated with the non grammatical meaning of the word, and the way is conflated with biological sex and how TRA say sexism exist because femininity is underappreciated. That is why I'm trying not to use it when talking in the sub. I'm afraid I don't know what would be the best way to replace gender, though. I've been using sex stereotypes and sex roles, but I realize sex role could be interpreted as reproductive roles (e.g. women are the ones who get pregnant) besides what society expect from each sex (e.g. women should be the ones washing the dishes). I wish I had better answers, but sociology is not my fort.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

First of all, repeal the gender identity law, amend any law that uses language not based in reality and correct any incorrect sex data. Amend laws and policies that use the phrase “gender based violence” to something that reflect sexism and misogyny are sex-based. No more legal "sex changes". Nobody can change their sex and official documents should not state falsehoods. No more males accessing single-sex spaces for women. No one should be required to use “preferred pronouns”.

Make sure trans women can’t even hope to have normal lives. Cool.

[–]grixitperson 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

No, this would free them to have normal lives.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

By removing all protections, making access to medically necessary transition harder, and ensuring that they can never escape being defined in every by their unfortunate medical history.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Them being men doesn't disappear into "medical history" just because they perform enough amputations and get plastic surgeries. No-one owes you an escape from reality.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not from the United States, none of this would affect you even if I were in a position to pull off half of those ideas. The law I want to repeal goes way beyond of what you want. It's basically all self-ID here, no questions asked, everyone is "valid". Even minors can legaly "change sex" as long they have parental approval. Kids as young as 5 (five) have got their documents changed thanks to this law. Hormonal and surgical procedures are provided on demand because, again, everyone is valid.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It would effect other members of my community. I’m not so self centered as you all seem to think.

And your solution is strip them of everything.

[–]grixitperson 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Simple: all laws and all data gathering would refer to sex when appropriate, no laws would refer to gender. No one would be forbidden to ask people to use certain language when refering to sex related topics, and no one would be forbidden to declline to do so.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Mandated neutral single occupancy locker rooms and bathrooms. A separate prison facility if feasible, fully sealed wing if not.

Hrt easily available. Surgical intervention covered but only with psychological approval and diagnosis.

Nondiscrimation in employment, housing, and medicine for sex, gender, and if necessary gender nonconformity.

Conversion therapy on trans people is illegal (also on homosexuality)

Sex Education includes trans people and homosexuality, but is also encouraging of non trans gender nonconformity.

Therapy regarding gender is free and encouraged to anyone who wishes to explore but without pushing for either outcome. (An exploratory rather than agenda’d approach)

ID And birth certificate changes with bottom surgery.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Therapy regarding gender is free and encouraged to anyone who wishes to explore but without pushing for either outcome. (An exploratory rather than agenda’d approach)

that’s a good one, would totally put that in place

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with almost all of this. Testosterone has some very serious and often irreversible effects on female bodies so I don't support HRT being easily available for transmen.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

  • I would create stronger laws to prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender. This would include pregnancy and being transgender. Schools and workplaces cannot require different dress codes for different genders. Dress codes must be equally enforced equally accross all genders.

  • Large employers will be required to publish salary data by gender, and maybe other demographics like race, or perhaps have salary data audited. Employers will be required to correct salary gaps of employees of different genders and races who are in the same position working the same hours, and have equal education and experience. This will include back pay as well. Companies must take actions to ensure equal pay for equal work.

  • Public restrooms and changing rooms will all be unisex, and they will have stalls for increased privacy. Restrooms won't have any gaps in the stalls.

  • Implement the Nordic model.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

What has pregnancy to do with gender? There is only one kind of people who can get pregnant, regardless of "gender identity" or "gender expression" or whatever else. If only you acknowledged what they have in common, you coud help them better.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

It's mostly women who get pregnant. Sometimes men and enbies get pregnant.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do those people have any physical commonalities allowing for their pregnancy perhaps? 🙄

Either male or female dogs have puppies in their bellies. Which is it?

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

You missed my point. All those people with various "gender identities" can get pregnant because they share on thing in common: their sex. However, you refuse to name all of them under a single group. You deny the importance of one's sex despite that is their sex what enable all those people to get pregnant. Likewise, "trans women" cannot get pregnant ever because of their sex. Despite the importance of one's sex in reproduction (as well in many other areas), you're determined that we don't have words to talk about this reality. You would probably be okay with hundred or thounsand words to refer to the many "gender identities", but words to describe someone's sex? That is not something you can accept, not even when talking about pregnancy.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (17 children)

I refuse to name all of them under a single group because they don't want to be named under a single group and I will respect each groups choices.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Imagine the sheer level of narcissism required to refuse to name the half of the human population capable of pregnancy because it might hurt the feelings of a minuscule minority.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

That is not narcissism. Look up NPD. Most people who are capable of pregnancy are women. If you want to be called a woman, fine. If you don't want to be called a woman, fine. I will respect whatever gender you identify as.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most people who are capable of pregnancy are women

A lot of people who become pregnant are girls, actually. But your crusade to appear Woke means you won't name the thing that is the reason for this.

You can call people whatever you like on top of female, but if you refuse to acknowledge that everyone who is capable of becoming pregnant is female and that no male is capable of becoming pregnant then you are a science denier on par with anti vaxxers and flat earthers, science denialism is classic narcissism.

But anyway:

That is not narcissism. Look up NPD.

Narcissism is not the same as NPD. I wouldn't armchair diagnose you with an actual disorder, even if I had my suspicions.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A lot of people who become pregnant are girls, actually.

Thank you for mentioning that. WHO says that nearly 800,000 girls under age 15 give birth each year in developing countries. Another 21 million girls and young women aged 15-19 get pregnant each year, and 12 million end up giving birth. Which is why complications of pregnancy, abortion and childbirth are the leading cause of death for teenage girls globally.

One of youngest girls known to have become pregnant and given birth in recorded history is Lina Marcela Medina de Jurado of Peru, who is now 87. When she gave birth in 1939, she was 5 years, 7 months, and 21 days old.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Narcissistic behaviour can exist without having npd. The concept existed well before the disorder was classified. Narcissist in this context means someone acting as though the needs of others are below their own whims in importance. If anybody here means npd when using the term narcissistic, they will clarify the disorder.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And how do you expect people talk about pregnancy without using the word female? And what about animals? Are you fine using a biological definition of female and male when talking about them? Or do we have to worry about animals' "gender identities" too?

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would also like to know the answer to this. How do you define words like female and male in relation to animals or plants, u/genderbender?

[–]Spikygrasspod 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You're framing it as calling people whatever they want to be called. But this entails a redefinition of 'woman' away from 'female person' to 'someone who wants to be called a woman'. The ability to name and define ourselves affects all women, so you can't please everyone by just using the words they prefer. It isn't respectful to go along with men's attempts to redefine womanhood as a personal identity and to poach woman centric language for themselves.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

It isn't respectful to go along with men's attempts to redefine womanhood as a personal identity and to poach woman centric language for themselves.

In this case, it is indeed men (trans men) attempting to re-define womanhood. I have no issues with it. Cis women are still welcome to call themselves women and tie their own pregnancies to being female.

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yes, yes, you can misconstrue what I meant by using your redefinitions of my words. Very helpful.

We may be welcome to call ourselves "women" but you and others are working on changing the definition of woman. It's not about making certain sounds or syllables with our mouths, you know. It's about shared meaning, and you and others are attempting to take words that are already in use, and redefining them so they lose that original shared meaning and, if you are successful, have a new meaning, while the old meaning becomes more difficult to express. It reminds me of when Mary Daly said she defined lesbian as women-identified feminists, and the people previously known as lesbians were mere homosexual women. It's linguistic poaching. Besides, if "women" did mean people with a feminine gender identity, I would not count this term as applying to myself. So again, you cannot respect everyone by just calling them whatever they want. If you're part of the attempts to poach sex based language from women/female people, in order that men/male people can use said language as fuel for their personal identities, you are not respecting women/female people.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Which means that talking about biological sex would be impossible if everyone followed your lead. But make not mistake, it will be females (the kind who are born as such and can get pregnant) who will lose if sex is erased as concept. Sex and sex differences will keep existing even if we hadn't words to talk about it. And, in spite of their claims to the contrary, men (the kind who can impregnate) will keep being able to know to whom send rape threaths and many other things.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Didn’t you say on your own post that you understand the differences between the sexes (You did. I read it)?

And didn’t you specifically mention “aFaB” people and their reproductive concerns in that same post (You did. I read it)?

So why the refusal to acknowledge that all the people who can get pregnant share the same sex (female), on this post?

“Sex isn’t the same as gender”, right? So admitting that tm and the enbies who can get pregnant share that ability because they are female shouldn’t invalidate/trigger them or weaken your argument.

I don’t understand how acknowledging an incredibly basic fact is disrespectful to their choices.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Schools and workplaces cannot require different dress codes for different genders. Dress codes must be equally enforced equally accross all genders.

So either trousers for all, or skirts for all? If it's trousers, the males who identify as the opposite sex surely will take umbrage. They'd probably demand that skirts that go spinny, thigh-highs and tops that show cleavage be mandatory for all.

Or do you mean that in workplaces and schools were uniforms are worn, everyone would have to wear a uniform that can accommodate pregnancy? Like the ponchos or sacks the whole crowd wore at the Rolling Stones' Circus in 1968? https://youtu.be/n06f6et66NQ

Or would you go for a more conventional kind of uniform and simply fire pregnant employees once their bellies and breasts grow too big for the standard-issue garb?

The Khmer Rouge made everyone "of all genders" dress exactly alike in the "perfect society" they tried to create. Didn't turn out so well. Funny dat. https://youtu.be/H7mJ0rs1e2w