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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (68 children)

Sex based rights are really human rights denied to half the human population because of no reason other than their sex until they fought for equality... at least until a new wave of males came and started stripping us of those rights again.

When female people (other wise known as women and girls) refer to sex based rights they mean equal rights in comparison with the opposite sex. They mean the equality, safety, and dignity almost always given to males (note- specifically in comparison to females, not in comparison to each other) simply for being males but often denied females simply for being female.

When the term sex based rights is used in the context of genderfeelz and trans people- it means that female humans should be allowed to have their rights remain undisrupted by any male regardless of their reasons for wanting to undermine those rights. Stated plainly- it means TW leave women and girls entirely the fuck alone and rally for themselves. Not because we are mean and don’t want to play with them- but because they literally are disrupting our rights (amongst other reasons for sure, but let’s stick to your post topic).

Aside from abortion and menstruation supplies… which not every female has access to for what it’s worth…

Equal pay

Equal opportunity

Equal representation

Dealing with male violence against females (in all its various forms)

Dealing with rape culture and how rape is handled generally

FGM

Sex trafficking

The ability to have a SAFE abortion

I’d throw in the ability to not be forced to be classed alongside our oppressors but that’s not officially on the list…

That’s just a few of the other concerns

It’s not about women needing things that men don’t need- it’s about fixing the system so that women have equal footing and just as fair a shot. Women don’t really have anything men don’t have (in this context lol).

Women are literally trying to balance things out so that everyone starts out at the same level and has the same access and opportunities regardless of being male or female

(I’m sure someone will offer a deeper response, but I tried lol)

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

(I’m sure someone will offer a deeper response, but I tried lol)

You should give yourself more credit, I think you nailed it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you!

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (65 children)

Sex based rights are really human rights denied to half the human population because of no reason other than their sex until they fought for equality... at least until a new wave of males came and started stripping us of those rights again.

Those are called "equal rights". The term "sex-based rights" makes it sound like women are fighting for additional swdial rights that men don't have.

When the term sex based rights is used in the context of genderfeelz and trans people- it means that female humans should be allowed to have their rights remain undisrupted by any male regardless of their reasons for wanting to undermine those rights. Stated plainly- it means TW leave women and girls entirely the fuck alone and rally for themselves.

That is not a right.

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Those are called "equal rights". The term "sex-based rights" makes it sound like women are fighting for additional swdial rights that men don't have.

By your reasoning, persons with disabilities are wrong to lobby for accommodations for their specific conditions & needs because that's fighting for rights that persons without the same medical conditions & needs don't have & can't take advantage of.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a perfect comparison.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hell, why stop there? Healthy people don't need medical services. Let's just destroy hospitals for the sake of fairness, they literally discriminate against healthy people.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (60 children)

Those are called "equal rights". The term "sex-based rights" makes it sound like women are fighting for additional swdial rights that men don't have.

Except we literally haven’t asked for shit that men don’t have so idk how you got yourself there lol

Women essentially are asking to be respected and left the fuck alone- it’s the trans community asking for additional rights that others don’t have. The trans community are the ones demanding privilege under the guise of “rights” and it’s actually fucking gross to try to put that on women for simply not wanting their rights to be undone before they ever got to be fully realized for the sake of males and their feelings.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (59 children)

When we believe trans women should have the right to use women's restrooms and changing rooms, we also believe trans men should have the right to use men's restrooms and changing rooms. We are asking for trans men to be considered men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In many workplaces, women fought for & gained the right to have a small room where breastfeeding women can go pump in privacy & under clean conditions (as opposed to having do pump in the restroom, which I hope you can see is wholly inappropriate for reasons of hygiene, convenience, comfort & privacy), as well as for a separate mini fridge where they can safely store the milk they've expressed until the end of their shift/workday (because, again for reasons I hope are obvious, it's not safe or appropriate to store women's breastmilk in the regular office fridge where everyone keeps their lunches, snacks, beverage & milk for the coffee station).

It's standard policy in every workplace I know of where women have obtained these "sex-based rights" that only female employees are allowed to access the breastmilk pumping rooms & fridges. Do you think males who claim to "identify as" women should also now be given access? How about other men with other "gender identities"?

What if men being able to access the pumping room makes it harder for women's milk to "let down"? What if the lack of privacy & the fear that any second a male workmate might walk in, watch & perhaps perv out on the sight of women expressing milk, causes some women to make stress hormones that affect the quality of their milk - & thus their babies' health & wellbeing? What if some women feel forced into stopping BFing altogether as a result?

In many workplaces where PPE is used or required, the PPE comes in "unisex" S, M, L & XL, but it turns out these are all based solely on male-sized & male-shaped bodies, faces, skulls, hands & feet. So the PPE doesn't properly fit the majority of female employees, & the female employees are put at risk as a result. Do you think that female employees should have the right to PPE that fits their female bodies, or they should have to suck it up & make do with the standard kit issued because everyone must treated exactly the same - & because you oppose rights & accommodations for women that could be said to be "sex based" beyond access to abortion & menstrual products?

In many office buildings, the air temperature is automatically set centrally based on what's most comfortable for employees with male metabolisms & endocrine systems who wear customary male business suits. The custom of setting the thermostats in this way is based on the fact that traditionally most employees, & all the employees who mattered, in office buildings were mainly men. But as it turns out, the temperature in these office buildings in the summer is way too cold for a majority of female employees, who make up a much larger proportion of the workforce in these buildings than in the past. Similarly, in the winter, the office temps are way too hot for the female employees, particularly women who are pregnant or going through menopause. But the women can't get building operations management to even consider changing the standard thermostat settings that have long been in place. Do you think women in office buildings like this are wrong to seek to have their workplaces better accommodate their female bodies? Or do you think only males have a "sex based right" to have the thermostat set to a temp tailored to their physical needs?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You reminded me about Blizzard and Ubisoft situations: https://twitter.com/Iamthisnotthat1/status/1418623731182747650 (whole thread)

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Whatever.

Beliefs and concrete fact are two separate things.

It’s fucked up beyond measure to try to force your personal and unproven- actually constantly disproven- beliefs onto others, especially to the extent that you strip them of their rights in the process. It’s truly horrifying and I can’t wait for tras who aren’t trans to get their heads out of the asses of the people they are rallying behind.

Transwomen oppress women just as much and in some ways worse than other men.

And idgaf where transmen pee.

You are never going to succeed in convincing enough people that TWAW and TMAM because all evidence points to the contrary. But ask away, I guess.

That is a huge reason why the concept of females having SEX BASED protections (or the right to sex based protections) is so important. Because apparently men can take all protection and rights from us if they just say they’re ladies. It’s patriarchy at its finest and it’s hilarious that people actually support it and think it’s anything less than the most blatant example of misogyny.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What does that have to do with sex based rights?

We aren’t trying to take away a transmans ability to get an abortion or escape a violent spouse. We are not preventing them from putting themselves in harms way and using the men’s room.

Being seen a certain way by people is not a right of any kind. Nobody is entitled to be perceived a particular way.

[–]adungitit 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

we also believe trans men should have the right to use men's restrooms and changing rooms.

They already have this right, and GC doesn't care about revoking it, because women do not present a danger to men. As long as women have their spaces and their usage by women is taken for granted, the woman has the right to leave those spaces if she so chooses.

As long as you keep lying and being delusional in regards to how dangerous men are to women's well-being and how the opposite is not the case in the least, sex-based protections will not make sense to you. But that's like saying that as long as you keep insisting the Earth is flat, that astrophysics will seem like a conspiracy and giberrish.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

They already have this right, and GC doesn't care about revoking it, because women do not present a danger to men. GC is worried about the enormous boom in impressionable anxious girls believing they're boys because they want to escape misogyny, but that's a different discussion from women being in men's toilets.

I'm "GC" and I do care about boys and men having a right to loos, locker rooms and changing rooms without any girls or women present. Pre-pubescent and pubescent boys and slow-developing teenage boys in particular are very self-conscious about their bodies. But so are other boys and men. Skinny men, fat men, old men, disabled men, men with beer bellies, hairy asses, scars, amputations, gynecomastia, small dicks and odd-looking dicks. Even very fit and good-looking men are often self-conscious about their bodies and do not feel comfortable being seen naked or urinating by members of the opposite sex other than their wives, GFs, very close friends or physicians.

The way I see it, respect for boundaries has to go both ways. When boys turn a certain age, it's not just inappropriate for them to continue to accompany their mums, grans, sisters and female carers into the ladies locker rooms, showers and loos for the sake of the privacy, dignity and safety of the women & girls in those spaces; it also becomes inappropriate for their own mums, grans, sisters and female carers to see and touch the boys' genitals for the sake of the boys' own privacy and dignity.

It's a big day in a young boy's life when the pediatrician at the annual checkup tells the kid to undress and at the same time turns to the mother and says, "Mom, the time has come for you leave the exam room now. Your boy is not your little boy any more." Mothers who disregard their developing sons' need for boundaries are liable to find that their sons develop disrespect for their boundaries in turn, and for the boundaries of women and girls in general.

Women are primarily the ones who teach little boys and girls about appropriate boundaries. I don't think we can expect boys to grow up into men who respect girls' and women's boundaries if we don't respect their boundaries in turn - and if we raise girls to think that boys have no bodily insecurities or right to visual privacy from girls and women when they are undressed or using the toilet.

The more that trans-identified females like Gavin Grimm and Chase Strangio barge in on male loos, locker rooms and change rooms - and het and bi trans-identified females insist that they have the right to be in places like gay male sex clubs, saunas, baths and sex parties, and to demand that gay guys date and have sex with them - the more guys in general are going to feel less and less compunction about entering female spaces like the women's area of Wi Spa and pulling out their dicks and waving them around in the faces of women & girls of all ages. And the less compunction boys and men in general will have about exposing their genitals in other places too - such as on trains, buses, subways and planes, or whilst sitting at their desks or walking around the premises at work or in school.

I believe that taking the position that boys & men have no right to bodily privacy from girls and women in restrooms and changing rooms will end up backfiring on girls & women. I also believe that saying "GC doesn't care" about the rights or boundaries of males because to some GC persons the rights and boundaries of males matter less than the rights of females do, or they matter not at all, is only going to turn potential allies away from the "GC" side.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

There really is no need for sexed spaces once you remove the patriarchy. There is no basis for them. Male and female bodies being different does not translate into needing separate spaces for them.

I also don't see men being particularly self-conscious of their bodies, aside from anxieties over penis size that is more in place because of other men anyways and its association with masculinity. Men are not saddled with the beauty standards that women have their entire personhood defined by, nor is there a history of stigmatisation of their bodies. In fact, they're very loud, proud and in-your-face with their bodies and bodily functions and tend to think the universe revolves around their penises. As usual, the worst treatment men can expect in this area comes from, you guessed it, other men.

respect for boundaries has to go both ways.

Becauuuse...? Women aren't the ones with an entire history of disrespecting men's boundaries and leering at them, to the point that they couldn't even leave the house due to constant sexual harassment and assault. No, protections do not need to go both ways because protections serve to protect the people who are actually endangered.

You proceed to talk about a person's normal right to privacy, which would apply both to their female and male family members. That is different from claiming that people must have privacy specifically from the opposite sex for really no reason.

I don't think we can expect boys to grow up into men who respect girls' and women's boundaries if we don't respect their boundaries in turn

Men don't understand boundaries because they don't experience the same traumas and dangers that women experience. Men are the ones who'll tell you it'd be awesome if they were sexually assaulted, because sex still by and large revolves around their pleasure and wants, glorifies their lack of self-control and overblown sexuality, and doesn't treat them as worthless objects for someone else's one-sided sexuality in all aspects of their life.

the more guys in general are going to feel less and less compunction about entering female spaces like the women's area of Wi Spa and pulling out their dicks and waving them around in the faces of women & girls of all ages.

What a stretch. Men already don't care about that. That's why they employ such a long list of double standards to control every aspect of a woman's life, and not once do they think of how it would be if this was applied to them. They apply entirely different rules to women to excuse their shitty treatment of them. A woman walking into their spaces isn't going to make them disregard women's spaces any more than women having to cover their chests is going to make men ashamed of being topless. They might try to whine about the double standards regarding sexed spaces and how unfair towards men it is that women are abused to such an extreme that they literally need separate spaces to lead a semblance of a normal life, but they already do that.

I also believe that saying "GC doesn't care" about the rights or boundaries of males because to some GC persons the rights and boundaries of males matter less than the rights of females do, or they matter not at all, is only going to turn potential allies away from the "GC" side.

LMAO what is this libfem attitude of shedding tears over male allies feeling "alienated"? There is no feminist movement that isn't going to alienate men. None. Even liberal feminism, for all its desperation to pander to men, is still seen as a matriarchal dictatorship by them.

GC cares a lot about not alienating and hurting the feelings of its conservative cesspool, but it fails to realise that the men who can't form a thought beyond spamming "there are only 2 genders!" and calling feminine men "trannies" aren't actually "on their side" just because they happen to turn their brainless ire on trans people. Instead of caring about alienating those patriarchal shit stains, GC should instead think about how it's alienating the women who don't want to suck up to misogynistic men just so they'd get their very limited back-stabby "support".

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

There really is no need for sexed spaces once you remove the patriarchy. There is no basis for them. Male and female bodies being different does not translate into needing separate spaces for them.

Huh? I don't get this at all. Can you explain further please? Thanks.

Also, I wasn't aware that the patriarchy had been slated for removal. Even if it does get removed one day, it's not gonna happen in my lifetime. The policies I advocate are for the real world in the here and now, not for some imaginary utopia that might happen far off in the future or the realm of fiction or science fiction.

BTW, in more than 50 years of being a feminist and many convos about what a world without male supremacy would be like, I have never heard anyone say there'd be "no need for sexed spaces" and "no basis" for them anymore.

So in the post-patriarchy utopia as you envision it, there'd be no spaces for lesbians or gay guys that exclude members of the opposite sex? Ever? Events like Michfest not allowed, and no more men getting together only with other men for hookups in bath houses and weekend orgies in places like Fire Island Pines? Really? I can see how this wouldn't go down well with a lot of people.

There really is no need for sexed spaces once you remove the patriarchy. There is no basis for them. Male and female bodies being different does not translate into needing separate spaces for them.

So a world without patriarchy would mean "no basis" for separate male and female sports? "No need? and "no basis" for corresponding sex separate locker rooms, training facilities, showers, saunas, therapeutic baths, either?

Sorry, a world in which there's only mixed-sex sports and therefore all the athletics opportunities, awards and glory go to males sounds exactly like patriarchy to me. No more sports for girls and women sounds eerily like the situation with school sports was in the US when I was growing up prior to US Title IX, in fact. Been there, done that and worked hard to change it. So to quote Sara Robles, "no thank you."

Also, no need or basis anymore for single-sex support groups for males with testicular and prostate cancer, erectile dysfunction, hemophilia and male-pattern baldness - or for females dealing with menstruation, pregnancy issues, endometriosis, PCOS, childbirth injuries and trauma, breast and gynecological cancers, fibroids, menopause, pelvic organ prolapse, aging-related UTIs, incontinence and vaginal atrophy?

No separate accommodations for the two sexes in jails and prisons, hospital wards/rooms, LTCFs, dorm rooms, school and scouting trips?

In the post-patriarchy utopia you imagine, women who go to, say, a community swim pool with their teen or adult sons and male in-laws will have to share the same change rooms and showers with them? Will getting rid of patriarchy mean the vast majority of boys and men won't be heterosexual any more, and/or they won't have eyes and dicks? And that within families and households, there will be no need or basis anymore for the kinds of sex separation that customarily is put in place as children grow up and relationships change? Such as girls no longer being seen naked by their dads or brothers once they hit puberty? And pubertal boys being given bodily privacy by their mothers - and vice versa - too?

In the scenario about pumping breastmilk at work that I asked GenderBender about but she never addressed, no women in a post-patriarchal world would want, need or be permitted to pump breastmilk at work (or anywhere else) in a place where their male colleagues can't walk in and watch? Humans will have no need or desire for personal boundaries or privacy from any other members of the other sex ever?

Middle- and high-schoolers on overnight trips with school or scouts will all share sleeping arrangements, and all the tween or teen pregnancies that will inevitably result will be no big deal coz "no patriarchy" anymore? WTF? That sounds nuts.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

The policies I advocate are for the real world in the here and now

Just because you advocate a policy for a current issue does not excuse a complete lack of thought into any of its future implications and reasons for existence.

I have never heard anyone say there'd be "no need for sexed spaces" and "no basis" for them anymore.

lol what an argument. I've never heard of tau neutrinos either, but that doesn't make them stop existing.

So in the post-patriarchy utopia as you envision it, there'd be no spaces for lesbians or gay guys that exclude members of the opposite sex?

People have the right to form spaces on the basis of certain shared interests and identities. That is entirely different from legal protections for said spaces because they are necessary to lead a normal life, as is the case with women.

So a world without patriarchy would mean "no basis" for separate male and female sports?

Obviously sports require a sex-based division, as do medical issues. These divisions are based in physical differences in male and female bodies requiring different expertise and different evaluation standards. This is different from spaces that serve to protect women from the social problem of patriarchal violence and harassment. Women are still targeted specifically for their sex, but the reason why they need protection is entirely external.

No separate accommodations for the two sexes in jails and prisons, hospital wards/rooms, LTCFs, dorm rooms, school and scouting trips?

If we were ever to reach a world where men did not pose a threat to women in these environments, yes.

In the post-patriarchy utopia you imagine, women who go to, say, a community swim pool with their teen or adult sons and male in-laws will have to share the same change rooms and showers with them?

If they would get naked with their male parents, why would they not with their female parents?

Will getting rid of patriarchy mean the vast majority of boys and men won't be heterosexual any more, and/or they won't have eyes and dicks?

It's unlikely that most men would be heterosexual if we got rid of the patriarchy. Most "heterosexual" men really just have a fetish for femininity and misogyny. Moreover, you can be heterosexual and not act like a creep, just as homosexual people manage to do.

And that within families and households, there will be no need or basis anymore for the kinds of sex separation that customarily is put in place as children grow up and relationships change?

How exactly do you think gay people are able to function? Is there sexual tension between every non-straight family member?

Such as girls no longer being seen naked by their dads or brothers once they hit puberty? And pubertal boys being given bodily privacy by their mothers - and vice versa - too?

If the same things were to be normal with their same-sex family members, then yes.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (48 children)

If they already have this right, why did Gavin Grimm and Nick H have to sue their schools?

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

People can sue you, you can sue them... That's different from a movement focusing on certain goals. In fact, it is a common complaint among trans activists that GC ignores female trans people and focuses only on men, despite even the most cursory overview of GC ideology showing the reasons for this (men present a danger to women, vice versa isn't the case).

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (46 children)

Quite the opposite. We complain the GC movement doesn't focus on male trans people like Buck Angel. The reason is GC complains themselves the the trans movement doesn't focus on trans men. There have also been instances where GCs outright forget trans men exist. Although they don't believe trans men are men, they will sometimes use "he" inadvertently because they assumed the trans man is a trans woman. One guy on r/GenderCynical linked to a comment where someone replied to him "stop calling yourselves women". Well he already stopped calling himself a woman. So thanks for the validation that he's not a woman! :)

Daily reminder that trans men don't exist

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

The reason is GC complains themselves the the trans movement doesn't focus on trans men

Misogynistic movements tend to disregard female people, hence why the trans rights movement performs in line with said roles. Again, the whole of trans ideology has consistently acted in line with patriarchal attitudes, and the reasons for this have been noticed and pointed out by radical feminists.

So thanks for the validation that he's not a woman! :)

Awesome :) ! So, every single time a trans person gets "misgendered", it's comfirmation that they're not actually what they claim to be, right? Dunno about you, but I see a metric ton more cases of misgendering, including from supposed allies of the trans movement, than I see cases of people "forgetting trans people exist", so, I guess that's a win against trans ideology, right?

Disclaimer: I personally think that the ad populum fallacy is ridiculous and pathetic, and I roll my eyes whenever both sides try to employ it. I'm just working with your logic here.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (44 children)

Misogynistic movements tend to disregard female people, hence why the trans rights movement performs in line with said roles.

It's the opposite. Anyway trans men are invisible in society compared to trans women. I believe this is because trans men pass better, and as a result get noticed less. A trans man walking into the men's restroom is much less likely to get noticed than a trans woman walking into the womans restroom. As a result of passing better, they experience less discrimination and harassment than trans women. This is not to say they don't experience discrimination at all. Also masculinity is not so much celebrated in society as much as femininity. A few trans men have said people will make statements like "men are trash" but then turn around to them and say "no, not you!" as if they aren't men. "People think of trans women as perverted men and trans men as harmless, silly or even misguided lesbians."

Trans men of reddit, what problems do you deal with that people of other identities don't know or think about?

Trans Men of MensLib: What insights to manhood and masculinity have you gained after transitioning?

Oddly enough most trans men are more supportive of the trans movement than gender critical feminism. For instance, on r/ftm, I only found TWO threads complaining about trans women.

Discrimination Against Trans Men [vent]

Frustrations with trans community of reddit?

However I foumd 20+ threads complaining about "TERFs". Funny enough GCs say trans women talk over trans men way more than trans men say that themselves. Yet GCs themselves talk over trans men. They keep insisting trans men are only transitioning to escape sexism or that they are lesbians in denial or are fetishizing gay men. Most trans men say that is not the case.

Feminist Trans Men & the Narrative of Internalized Misogyny

I want to die... confused, scared, am I manipulating myself?

The idea that trans men are “lesbians in denial” is demeaning and wrong

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

“Those are called "equal rights". The term "sex-based rights" makes it sound like women are fighting for additional swdial rights that men don't have.“

Okay… but I literally fucking explained what is meant when the term is used so wtf?

“ That is not a right.”

It’s the only actual fair thing to do. It’s the only way to actually maintain any measure of equality for females. It is absolutely right, even if it’s not a right. TW need to do for themselves and leave females alone completely. Females have nothing to do with transwomen whatsoever.

What’s “not right” is TW forcing themselves on women and in our spaces. That’s wrong as fuck.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Besides things specific to people AFAB like having an abortion or access to menstrual products.

Sounds like you already know what sex-based rights are.

Edit: not all sex discrimination is directly tied to biological functions. Rather it is all discrimination women face because they are female (which often does directly relate to female biological functions). Being denied a bank account without male approval had nothing to do with menstruation or pregnancy, but still affected only those with female biology. Sex-based rights then are human rights which have been denied to you on the basis of your sex.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Men and women are different biologically, so to have equal opportunities, equal rights and equal possibilities - we require different things. I would recommend you to read book "Invisible Women" by Perez, there are a lot of examples on how "unisex" or "made for men" is not working for women.

Clearest example will be sports. For women to have equal field of play, equa opportunities, chances to win - sports must be segregated by sex, otherwise women would not be able to get any scholarships, whould not be able to equally compete and participate in sports.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (68 children)

If they are called sex-based rights it means they are meant for people who are female (you know, the kind who can get pregnant, not the kind of people who "identify" into being "female"). Do you not think there are biological diferences between males and females (using sex-based definitions, here) and that those differences need to be taken into account? Do you not think females and males (again, sex-based definitions here) have different life experience both because of biology and what society expects from them? Do you no think that people who are born as female and people who "identify" into being "female have both biological differences and different life experiences? do you not think that therefore people born as female and people who "identify" as "female" may have differents needs? Do you not think the needs from people who are born as female and people who "identify" as "female" may ever clash? Do you not think people who are born as female have a right to advocate for their own unique needs?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Just to clarify: sex-based rights aren't exclusive to females, though that' how we think of them because traditionally only female people were denied basic human rights - such as the right to vote - based on their sex.

Historically, however, most rights granted solely to boys & men were granted based entirely on the fact of their male sex, so men's historical rights should count as sex-based rights too. Such as the right to learn to read & write, the right to attend school, the right to learn & practice all the trades & professions, (from masonry to tailoring/clothes making to law, theology and medicine), the right to apply for a panoply of jobs, the right to own property, the right to custody of one's children in the event of divorce, the right to apply for a bank loan or credit card, right to study religious texts such as the Talmud & Hadiths, the right to enter the priesthood, become a rabbi, imam or monk... and so on. If you look at the laws of human civilizations going back through time, you'll find again & again that a plethora of rights were explicitly granted to males solely because they are of the male sex.

Today in countries such as the US, males also have rights to many things that women can't take advantage of because of our different bodies. Such as treatment for prostate cancer & hemophilia, diseases that can only affect males. Or the rights of boys who play school sports to wear or be equipped with uniforms & gear such as helmets, pads & shoes sized and tailored to fit their male bodies, along with jock straps & cups to protect their male genitals, rather than to be forced to squeeze into uniforms & protective gear sized & shaped for female bodies - & to make do with sports bras instead of jockstraps & cups.

Moreover, males have the right to participate in, profit from, & enjoy, a plethora of sports for which there are no female equivalent at all (such as the Olympic decathlon, both Little League & Major League Baseball, and US-style tackle football), or for which there is a now female equivalent but not on the same scale as for males (the NBA vs the WNBA; soccer/football whether at the community, club, professional level) and which do not offer the two sexes the same chance at achieving fame & fortune. For example, in the US, the NFL, MLB & college football don't explicitly bar women, but football remains a male-only preserves anyways because due to the differences in male & female bodies, female athletes can't even come close to qualifying even to try out for these sports. (The sole exception is for the very occasional kicker in football.) But no one says that because women can't participate in these sports that males shouldn't be able to have them.

Also, some rights that members of both sexes were granted historically were sex-based in the sense that they only applied to people who were, or were assumed to be, heterosexual, or in instances involving two persons who appeared to be in a heterosexual relationship. For example, the right to engage in "sexual congress," marry, adopt & utilize medical services such as IVF were once confined only to male-female couples. Gay rights thus are also sex-based rights. And where gay rights now seem to be going off the rails, as it were, is with the push in recent years to disregard sex differences when it comes to human procreation. Some gay men who want biological children are now asserting that it's their human right to make use of women's bodies, & to put women's lives at risk, to do so. Further, some gay men who've obtained babies by exploiting women through coercive womb rental, aka "surrogacy," are now claiming that promoting the breastfeeding of infants through such slogans as "breast is best" & campaigns such as International Breastfeeding Week is bigoted, homophobic & unfairly "exclusionary" because gay men who've become fathers through surrogacy don't have the option of feeding their children in this way.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Further, some gay men who've obtained babies by exploiting women through coercive womb rental, aka "surrogacy," are now claiming that promoting the breastfeeding of infants through such slogans as "breast is best" & campaigns such as International Breastfeeding Week is bigoted, homophobic & unfairly "exclusionary" because gay men who've become fathers through surrogacy don't have the option of feeding their children in this way.

First time I heard of this nonsense. Gay men can be as entintled as any other men, but of course pointing this out is "homophobic".

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Documentary film maker and TV producer Malcolm Clark, a gay man himself, now has several threads on Twitter about how younger gay male celebs like TV personality & influencer Tan France are not just exploiting women through use of surrogacy & their push to loosen laws around surrogacy so that egg donors & surrogate mothers have no rights, but they are now using their public platforms to complain about the idea that "breast is best" for babies.

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1423429338268160000

Tan France, a gay man who with his husband has recently become a dad through rental of a woman's body, has signed on to be a paid promoter of a brand of infant formula. On Instagram this week, Tan complained

It’s National Breastfeeding Awareness Month, where one type of feeding is put on a social pedestal and those who can not or chose not to are made to feel second best for formula feeding.

Talk about appropriating other people's struggles! The people who have been "made to feel second best" by the so-called "nipple Nazis" in the cultural battles over breastfeeding have always been women, specifically mothers of newborns who for various reasons can't or don't breastfeed. La Leche League-type lobbying and campaigning has never caused any fathers or any other men "to feel second best" FFS! The "tit tyrants" who turn up their noses at the idea of not feeding a baby via the breast, or with pumped breast milk via bottle in a pinch, 100% of the time have always aimed their disapproval directly and solely at women. This issue has nothing to do with men like this colonizer Tan guy. The cheek of him grabbily appropriating the struggles of women who are mothers.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSKs1FYHSAe/

Turns out that the brand of formula that this guy is promoting in the US is four times more expensive than the next most-costly brand on the market in the States. Worse, when it was introduced to the US market earlier this year, the FDA found it wasn't safe for babies and issued warnings telling parents who had purchased it to throw it out:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1424031713454350341.html

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gay men are men. Never forget that.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (63 children)

I do think there are biological differences between natal males and natal females. I don't think those differences matter that much, especially in matters of public policy. Trans women largely experience the same discrimination cis women do, like street harassment and unequal pay. That's why I don't understand why GC is reluctant to include trans women in their activism, when they are largely fighting the same fight. Though trans women don't want their activism anyway. I remember on r/FTM one trans guy posted his wife is a trans woman and he doesn't nearly experience the same harassment she does when going out in public. Though that is anecdotal. Trans men after transitioning may experience some issues cis women experience, like pregnancy and periods, but mostly when they pass they are treated like men by society. That doesn't mean they don't experience discrimination for being trans. An employer can find out you're trans by doing a background check and finding your dead name, and can use that against you in the hiring process. I think life experiences vary based somewhat on biological sex but mostly on gender presentation. I also don't believe sex-segregated spaces are a right.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

I think life experiences vary based somewhat on biological sex but mostly on gender presentation.

Wow, all this time....all natal females had to do to avoid being oppressed was dress differently. Too bad we were apparently too stupid to figure that out.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, if only the hundreds of millions of human female fetuses aborted solely for being female had changed their "gender presentation," then they would have been given a chance to live - and to live free of all sex discrimination. Same goes for all the hundreds of millions of baby girls killed or abandoned to die by "natural causes" like exposure and starvation, and all the little girls who get subjected to the horror of female genital mutilation. How stupid of them not to have taken the tack that in GenderBender's view easily would have spared them.

Just goes to show that female humans really are too stupid to grasp that the mistreatment they/we get is mainly due to making the wrong choice of "gender presentation."

All the girls & women over history who were fired from jobs, kicked out of school and sent to places like the Magdelene laundries for being pregnant should've simply changed their "gender presentation" and voila, all would have been hunky-dory. All the pregnant, post-partum and breastfeeding women who get discriminated against, sexually harassed, hit on by creeps, subjected to unwanted touching and groping, insulted, mansplained to, perved on, dick waved at, jerked off to and beaten up for daring to be visibly pregnant or to breastfeed in the sight of men - or to be seen in public pushing a pram/stroller, holding a baby in arms or with a toddler in tow - they/we could have avoided all that unpleasantness if only we'd be so wise as to adopt a different "gender presentation."

All the girls and women who've been medically and sexually abused and traumatized by physicians during pregnancy and childbirth - and in many other situations too, as in the case of what Larry Nassar did to scores of young female gymnasts like Simone Biles - must have had it all coming for being too dumb to adopt a "gender presentation" that would have spared them.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Wow, all this time....all natal females had to do to avoid being oppressed was dress differently. Too bad we were apparently too stupid to figure that out.

That's not what I said. Gender presentation =/= dress. Gender presentation is your skin, your voice, amount of facial hair, etc. Whatever sex you pass as and are perceived as. Unless you are trans, it's unreasonable to expect you to change your appearance to appear a different sex. I experienced sexism as a cis woman, and my solution is to fight sexism, not to change my appearance.

Most trans men transition due to dysphoria, not to escape sexism. Many trans men say that themselves.

Feminist Trans Men & the Narrative of Internalized Misogyny

I want to die... confused, scared, am I manipulating myself?

The idea that trans men are “lesbians in denial” is demeaning and wrong

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

I experienced sexism as a cis woman, and my solution is to fight sexism, not to change my appearance.

Could've fooled me! Sorry, Genderbender, but the views you've expressed in your posting history come across as extremely sexist. As outrageously sexist, in fact.

The views you have expressed also give the very strong impression that you have deep-seated dislike of, disdain for, and animus towards girls and women - and that you want to create a world in which no one will be allowed any rights and accommodations that take sex into account.

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters. Frankly, your views frighten me.

Gender presentation is your skin, your voice, amount of facial hair, etc. Whatever sex you pass as and are perceived as.

How can a female human fetus change its skin, voice, amount of facial hair etc so as to "pass as" and be "perceived as" male and thus escape being subjected to sex-selective abortion on account of being female? How can a fetus change its voice or amount of facial hair when fetuses can't speak and don't have facial hair?

Please share the ways you've found that are successful in hiding fetal sex from sonogram machines and genetic screening.

By your misogynistic, reeking-of-privilege, elitist "reasoning," girls in Africa wouldn't be subjected to FGM if only they had the prescience and intelligence to wear fake beards and mustaches, and to lower their voices when they scream.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters.

Sounds like standard liberal feminism to me.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (33 children)

Could've fooled me! Sorry, Genderbender, but the views you've expressed in your posting history come across as extremely sexist. As outrageously sexist, in fact.

It makes sense you see my posts that way because you're GC. Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist.

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters. Frankly, your views frighten me.

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access. However I otherwise don't believe sex matters. For instance I think restrooms and changing rooms should be gender neutral. How do my views frighten you? I'm not in any position of power and GCs say most people agree with them.

How can a female human fetus change its skin, voice, amount of facial hair etc so as to "pass as" and be "perceived as" male and thus escape being subjected to sex-selective abortion on account of being female? How can a fetus change its voice or amount of facial hair when fetuses can't speak and don't have facial hair?

Please share the ways you've found that are successful in hiding fetal sex from sonogram machines and genetic screening.

Lol fetuses can't change their gender. You do that when you're older.

By your misogynistic, reeking-of-privilege, elitist "reasoning," girls in Africa wouldn't be subjected to FGM if only they had the prescience and intelligence to wear fake beards and mustaches, and to lower their voices when they scream.

That's not what I said. I said although people AFAB are mostly treated like men, they will still be subject to issues specific fo people AFAB.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist

Exactly how much of your understanding of how the general population views these topics is based on Reddit and other online forums?

Because…

Nevermind the because lol but I am curious about your answer.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Exactly how much of your understanding of how the general population views these topics is based on Reddit and other online forums?

The general population isn't on GC side. The general population still very, very much believes in gender.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think people believe in gender- I don’t think people generally believe in QT’s interpretation of gender.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree. That still doesn't make the oft-repeated notion of most people being on GC side in any way accurate.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist.

Men also think feminism is a sexist matriarchal movement advocating male genocide. People being stupid and ignorant doesn't really say much beyond the fact that they're stupid and ignorant. Liberal feminism and trans activism has continuously failed to argue their points without advocating patriarchal ideology. You can see this play out numerous times on this very sub. Just saying that a group is "sexist" because it gets men's dicks angry doesn't mean a thing. Can you actually prove it? There has yet to be a single trans activist that's been up to the task and capable of forming arguments beyond "Transwomen are women because I say so". The reasons why trans activism and liberal feminism go against female rights have been continuously explained by GC, and trans activism has never been able to even attempt to disprove any of it.

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access.

So...you acknowledge the reality of women's biology...but women themselves are a figment of imagination? How do you work with this level of cognitive dissonance? It's like saying "I acknowledge human biology, but I don't think humans are real"

I think restrooms and changing rooms should be gender neutral.

And the threat of male violence, assault and harassment that they exist in the first place to protect women from are just...what? Going to be whisked away if women stop being so exclusionary towards men?

Wait, are you the same person who's continuously lied about the reality of violence and harassment that women face at the hands of men even after being given copious evidence proving you wrong?

fetuses can't change their gender.

Why?

I said although people AFAB are mostly treated like men, they will still be subject to issues specific fo people AFAB.

And why do you think that is? Who do you think made it so that "AFAB" people don't have penises and need sanitary pads for their periods? The TERFs? The patriarchy? Cis women?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

How do my views frighten you?

Coz you want to remove carefully-thought out safeguards that have been put in place for the protection and benefit of women and children and impose rules that will put women and children at risk.

Coz you want to make adherence to the tenets of genderology mandatory for the whole population by law and by custom.

Coz you say that people can escape their sex, and thus the consequences of being female, by simply changing "gender presentation" and adopting a "gender identity" that denies their sex.

Coz you keep repeating

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access. However I otherwise don't believe sex matters.

Like a broken record. You keep pretending that biological sex differences solely or mainly are about matters like abortion and menstruation. You don't seem aware that the phase of life when female humans menstruate and might need an abortion is less than half the average US women's lifespan nowadays - yet biological sex differences that are of profound importance to girls' and women's health and wellbeing both precede the "childbearing years" of the female life cycle and persist long after it.

Coz when I asked you how changing "gender presentation" would apply to, and ameliorate, the widespread practice of aborting human female fetuses simply because they are female, you responded by saying

Lol fetuses can't change their gender

Hundreds of millions of female fetuses aborted simply for being female and your response is to laugh.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

Coz you want to remove carefully-thought out safeguards that have been put in place for the protection and benefit of women and children and impose rules that will put women and children at risk.

I find the term "women and children" sexist because it implies women are in the same category as children or are more weaker somehow. If something is dangerous to women and children, it is dangerous to men and enbies too.

Coz you want to make adherence to the tenets of genderology mandatory for the whole population by law and by custom.

Coz you say that people can escape their sex, and thus the consequences of being female, by simply changing "gender presentation" and adopting a "gender identity" that denies their sex.

But most people support your side and I don't have any political power.

Coz you keep repeating

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access. However I otherwise don't believe sex matters.

Like a broken record. You keep pretending that biological sex differences solely or mainly are about matters like abortion and menstruation. You don't seem aware that the phase of life when female humans menstruate and might need an abortion is less than half the average US women's lifespan nowadays - yet biological sex differences that are of profound importance to girls' and women's health and wellbeing both precede the "childbearing years" of the female life cycle and persist long after it.

Coz when I asked you how changing "gender presentation" would help prevent or curb the widespread practice of aborting human female fetuses simply because they are female, you responded by saying

Lol fetuses can't change their gender

Hundreds of millions of female fetuses aborted simply for being female and your response is to laugh.

I laughed because you implied fetuses can change their gender which they can't. Yes female fetuses aborted for being female. No one is denying that.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think the average woman is as strong as the average man?

If those foetuses are aborted because they are female, is this sex or gender? Are females being aborted due to their femaleness or not? Is female genital mutilation performed on girls because they are female or because they identify as girls?

If sex doesn’t matter, why are these girls being harmed on the basis of their sex? If the foetuses being aborted due to their sex, does sex really not matter still?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I laughed because you implied fetuses can change their gender which they can't.

No, I did the precise opposite, FFS. The point I was making is that female fetuses cannot escape the consequences of their sex by changing their "gender presentation."

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

I laughed because you implied fetuses can change their gender which they can't. Yes female fetuses aborted for being female. No one is denying that.

Wait a minute... So, you do recognize a biology-based definition of female. And you do recognize that sex-based discrimination is a thing. Yet you keep understating the importance of sex and prioritizing "gender identity" because...? Really, why do you do this?

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

Biology can absolutely result in discrimination, but that is not always the case. A trans man who passes as male, for instance, will not be catcalled on the streets, and will have his ideas taken seriously. A trams woman who passes as female will experience the same catcalling cis women experience and may be offered a lower salary than her male colleagues applying for the same position. If you read articles from actual trans people, they will tell you how they were treated differently when presenting as men vs women, or even presenting as androgynous.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gender presentation =/= dress. Gender presentation is your skin, your voice, amount of facial hair, etc. Whatever sex you pass as and are perceived as.

Jesus Christ.

You don’t even understand what your own side believes lmao

Can’t tell if it’s just you and heim that make it up as you go along or if that’s just what you all do

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

if that’s just what you all do

This one.

TRAs in general seem to be unable to have a coherent thought, they make shit up according to what they need at the time.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transwomen are not females. That is why most female people don’t include them and don’t want to be forced to be tied/connected to them.

It’s not hate, it’s not not understanding, it’s just knowing that our differences matter much more than any similarities that some TW may share.

Maybe, just maybe, respect the differences you said you’re aware of.

Maybe just consider that your opinion is not fact based and is quite invasive to others, and as such shouldn’t be forced on others nor should it be implied that yours is the only good and right way.

People think differently than you think. A LOT of people. Like a lot a lot… like significantly more than think the same as you. You’re really trying to force a wish fulfillment-based ideology onto almost everyone on the planet. It’s absurd. And it’s actually wrong. History has shown us time and time again that it’s wrong to try to force society at large to bend to the whims of one specific ideology.

Even if TW were actually harmless to women or even so mentally/internally similar that they truly do « identify » as women-

So.

Fucking.

What.

So what. We don’t care. It changes nothing at all.

They aren’t women. They aren’t females. That’s the whole issue. And they won’t ever be the same as us, so stop trying to force everyone to pretend they are and stop sacrificing female equality to protect their feelings and avoid figuring out how to actual treat their mental condition. Even if sex based spaces aren’t a right- a large (significantly larger than the trans community) class of people needs and are accustomed to having specific safety and privacy measures in place in public life. They want to maintain that. Respect that or admit you don’t give a fuck about them. Even though you’re one of them.

Maybe the questions shouldn’t be about sex based rights or female rights or trans rights.

Maybe the questions should be Should the ideological beliefs of one group have the power to dictate to the rest of the population?

should the needs of a very small community overpower the established rights of half the population?

Should disproven pseudoscience and desperation be enough justification to strip a specific class of the right to be classed on their own, free of their oppressors?

If you think the answer is yes to even one of those questions, then you are (potentially) dangerous. If you know the answer is no and you still have no issue with pushing this shit onto others then you’re either extremely lost or a hypocrite.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We don’t want transwomen in our spaces because they are male. Sex might not matter to you, but it does to others. Sex is the strongest predictor we have for safety. The fact that women occasionally commit violent acts does not make them an equal risk to men, who commit at least 90% of violent and/or sex crimes.

Choosing to treat this like it’s incomprehensible will not convince others to ignore the reality of being female.

Transwomen might be catcalled or whatever, but they do not experience the vast majority of sexism aimed towards women. They are raised on male socialisation and are given all the benefits of being visibly male.

Pretending that transgender people pass amazingly well and that we are lying when we say what we can see will not change that. Males are raised like boys. No amount of feminising surgery or hormones or vocal training will undo the formative years of the persons entire personality.

Why do women not have the right to sex segregation in your eyes? Is it unkind? Unfair? What reason to you have to believe women should not be able to seperate themselves from males?

Just a reminder, I use men to refer to natal males and women to refer to natal females exclusively and that will not change. Try to focus on what I’m asking and not the wording you like and dislike.

[–]strictly 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That's why I don't understand why GC is reluctant to include trans women in their activism

I remember on r/FTM one trans guy posted his wife is a trans woman and he doesn't nearly experience the same harassment she does when going out in public.

You answer your own question. You admit there are biological females (some who are man-identifying) who don't experience the same type of struggles the woman-identifying male in your anecdote experiences. I am a biological female and I have luckily never been sexually harassed either. A woman-identifying male having had an awful experience I haven’t doesn’t immediately make me relate to the struggles of the woman-identifying male. You take it for granted that it wouldn't make sense for man-identifying females to group with woman-identifying males under feminism as some man-identifying females don’t experience street harassment and some woman-identifying males do etc. What is true for man-identifying females is also true for other biological females. Being harassed in the street is not a unifying biological female experience as some have been harassed and some haven’t, the only thing all biological females have in common is being of the female reproductive sex. It would make as little sense for us to group with woman-identifying males as it does for man-identifying females to group with woman-identifying males as neither of us share reproductive sex with these woman-identifying males.

[–]GenderbenderSex-segregated spaces in public are not a right[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I am a biological female and I have luckily never been sexually harassed either.

Are you a trans man? I am a cis woman and I have been sexually harassed multiple times in public. I live in a large, populous city so maybe that makes a difference. My male friends, including trans men do not experience sexual harassment in public but the trans men I am friends with said they did experience it prior to passing.

What is true for man-identifying females is also true for other biological females.

From what I've read from trans men half the time they are treated like men half the time they are treated like women. I gave examples in this very thread.

[–]strictly 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Are you a trans man?

I have quite standard physical features for a biological female.

I live in a large, populous city so maybe that makes a difference.

Sexual harassment and sexual assaults is statistically high where I live compared to comparable places but the specific type of street harassment you refer to might be less common. I've luckily not experienced other types of sexual harassment either though.

From what I've read from trans men half the time they are treated like men half the time they are treated like women. I gave examples in this very thread.

According the data I’ve seen the sexual victimization rate of man-identifying females is higher than of other biological females and higher than the sexual victimization rate of woman-identifying males too (both in childhood and adulthood). Man-identifying females would therefore on average have a greater capacity to relate to sexually harassed woman-identifying males than other biological females would be able to relate to sexually harassed woman-identifying males. Regarding the other things you mention, the type of sexism woman-identifying males say they endure has as of yet not been the type of sexism I personally encounter in my life so I can’t personally relate to it. It’s also uncertain that the root cause of the discrimination they face would be the same, they might not look like biological females, or they aren’t in stealth and don’t pass as biological females for that reason. If their biological sex is known they don't get treated as biological females, they usually get treated as feminine biological males and I’m neither of those things. Regarding your anecdotes from man-identifying females, they seem to report that the type of sexism I encounter the most increased after transitioning. I haven’t really experienced that men would filter out what they think about women, I hear men openly say misogynistic things all the time. They trash talk women and want me to join in and get upset when I refuse.

Anyway, my point is, just because someone is a biological female it doesn't mean the biological female is automatically going to be able to relate to woman-identifying males. The only thing all biological females have in common is being biological female, and we don’t have that in common with woman-identifying males. It’s true we share human adult struggles with them but we share human adult struggles with all human adults, including adult males who don’t identify as women, so there is no reason to group with woman-identifying males in particular.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sexual harassment and sexual assaults is statistically high where I live compared to comparable places but the specific type of street harassment you refer to might be less common.

Do you go out much?

I haven’t really experienced that men would filter out what they think about women, I hear men openly say misogynistic things all the time. They trash talk women and want me to join in and get upset when I refuse.

This has been my experience as well, which is why I try to avoid friendships with men. Thinking about it, I imagine men only do this kind of filtering when they're in more equal environments like certain jobs that don't tolerate it, and environments with more equal gender ratios, due to the backlash. I can only imagine that the women who are surprised at the misogyny that men uncover around them might've surrounded themselves with liberal men and assumed that these men are not misogynists, like most women assume (and then get burned by). Moreover, men expecting high-fives for their misogyny doesn't mean they see you as male, it just means they think you also agree that women are subhuman, and as we all know, history is rife with women having to put up with this due to patriarchal norms.

It’s true we share human adult struggles with them but we share human adult struggles with all human adults, including adult males who don’t identify as women, so there is no reason to group with woman-identifying males in particular.

I feel that's like saying effeminate and weak straight men who get bullied for being gay must also be gay. Sure, both might suffer the effects of homophobia, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

[–]strictly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you go out much?

I’m not a party person but if you simply mean meeting people or being outside I think I’m about average in that aspect.

This has been my experience as well, which is why I try to avoid friendships with men.

I’m not friends with people I find unpleasant but I don’t care about the biological sex of the potential friend.

I imagine men only do this kind of filtering when they're in more equal environments like certain jobs that don't tolerate it, and environments with more equal gender ratios, due to the backlash.

That is what I think too.

Moreover, men expecting high-fives for their misogyny doesn't mean they see you as male, it just means they think you also agree that women are subhuman

lol, yeah, if they rant about other female people they are probably ranting about you too when you aren’t around. Hearing men making fun of female people on testosterone isn’t uncommon either and they aren’t using male-pronouns for them while doing so. In front of a known female person on testosterone they might censor their thoughts on that subgroup of female people and say sexist things about other female people instead.

I feel that's like saying effeminate and weak straight men who get bullied for being gay must also be gay. Sure, both might suffer the effects of homophobia, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

With adult human struggles I was referring to adult human struggles that are common to most adult humans, my point was that I don’t feel something uniquely in common with someone just because they share a struggle with me if most humans also share that struggle. Regarding your point, I thought about bringing that up but was lazy, but I agree. The homophobia a straight man who is mistaken for a gay man faces would feel less personal as he knows the homophobia was misdirected.

[–]Radish 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The question makes an assumption. I would ask it more like, What rights do women need that men also need, and actually have, and women don't?