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[–]JoeyJoeJoe 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (69 children)

If only we had a system for using toilets that preserved the maximum amount of privacy, safety and dignity for the most amount of people practically possible.

Oh wait, we had that, and the TRA are waging war on it.

[–]inkling 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (68 children)

Switch out "the most amount of people practically possible" for "cis" or "able bodied" or "ethnic majority" and read your comment again.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Why would anyone do that when all people, able bodied or disabled, and of any race/ethnicity, have a sex?

[–]inkling 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I'm saying that the solution that works for the most people isn't always the most morally correct, not just in regards to sex segregation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Then that’s what you should have said instead of making a faulty (and ironically ableist and racist) analogy, you also would have needed to back up why not sacrificing sex based spaces for the sake of trans people is not the most morally correct.

This is specifically and only about sex segregation. So whatever other context where what works for the most isn’t the most moral choice is detracting from the subject at hand.

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

you also would have needed to back up why not sacrificing sex based spaces for the sake of trans people is not the most morally correct

I don't think there is any evidence that allowing trans people to use the spaces that align with their gender identity causes those spaces to be unsafe for others. I think there is actually evidence of the opposite https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

Whereas there is evidence that not allowing trans people to use spaces that align with their gender identity has bad consequences for trans people https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-bathroom-law-study-suicide-454185

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29159308/

That is what makes it more morally correct to me.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So… if we don’t let trans people use the bathroom they choose, they’re gonna kill themselves?

So just mass emotional manipulation?

Not respecting boundaries of others, not accepting basic biology, but… mass emotional manipulation… that’s what sounds morally sound to you?

This isn’t really convincing to me, it just kind of seems like you’ve shown me that trans people are severely mentally unstable and need more thorough mental health assistance, rather than a free pass to invade other people’s spaces and force those other people to feel uncomfortable in spaces actually intended for them. The public should have nothing to do with the mental health treatment for trans people. We are not qualified to be responsible for trans people’s mental health. Trans people are responsible for their own mental health. If they can’t handle using the proper bathroom, that’s a huge red flag that there’s something not being dealt with mentally, imo.

The thing is- I used to not care about bathrooms, but there’s no stopping at bathrooms. We accepted that we were going to share bathrooms- and everything else was taken. And we can’t say no to anything. Because every time someone speaks up, we just get told it’s what’s best for trans people like trans people are all that’s supposed to matter.

What’s most morally correct is not disrupting the rights of others (which-TM don’t really do, that’s more a TW thing imo), not forcing yourself on others (or their sports, spaces, groups etc). Id say it’s also morally correct to respect sex over gender/identity, since sex is actually provable, unchanging, and real.

I do think when it comes to transmen it’s different, because they are putting themselves in a male environment, not a female one. I don’t think there’s the issue of which vulnerable group deserves to actually be protected because males are not generally considered a vulnerable group. I think there’s a huge difference between a male disrupting a female space and a female entering a male space.

The most morally correct thing is to give trans people their own spaces if they absolutely cannot use the proper (sex based) spaces.

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Regardless of whether you care if trans people kill themselves or not, it seems obvious to me that if there is a proven bad outcome for trans people without gender affirming policies and no evidence for a bad outcome for cis people with gender affirming policies, gender affirming policies should be preferable.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So… Everyone else sacrificing their needs, rights and comfort for trans people is the most morally correct thing.

Because you personally think so.

Got it.

I understand the studies- the most morally correct thing is still to attempt to make the most people possible Feel safe, comfortable and as if they have equal rights. (And to make sure that trans people are given whatever mental health assistance they may need to cope with the fact of their biology and the fact that other people matter and have rights)

Third spaces for trans people is how you do that. That’s the most fair. That’s the most correct. The world doesn’t revolve around trans people.

Do you think it’s morally correct to force the rest of the population to be responsible for your mental health?

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Because you personally think so.

No, because the evidence says so

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (58 children)

So, you're saying that racial segregation and a lack of disabled spaces actually kept the maximum amount of people safe? Mind trying to expand on your weird racist logic?

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (57 children)

No I am not, I'm saying that the majority perceived it that way.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

Sure people were really out there freaking out over the dangers ramps and pedestrian lights that make sounds we’re gonna have on all the people who can walk and see. 🙄

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (54 children)

Some people believed that disability accomodations weren't necessary because the current system benefitted the maximum number of people. I don't know why you think that people had to be afraid of disability accomodations in order for it to be comparable as that wasn't why I was comparing the two in the first place.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Because the issue is about safety, or rather fears for safety. It’s got nothing to do with some supposed moral issue.

Besides, absolutely nothing for transgender people benefits a majority. It’s absurd to compare the wants of a small group to the actual needs of people with disabilities.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

absolutely nothing for transgender people benefits a majority. It’s absurd to compare the wants of a small group to the actual needs of people with disabilities

This is a flawed argument. It's not about what benefits a majority, it is about whether someone's demands are necessary and whether they infringe on other people's rights. Minorities should not have to prove that their rights benefit the majority in order for people to give a shit about accommodating them, but they also cannot make demands that will violate other people's rights and safety. i.e. gay people, despite being a minority, can make demands for equality, pedophiles cannot. And if gay people started demanding they be let into female spaces freely because straight men bully them, or demanded that biology be rewritten to claim that two men can reproduce in order to make gay people feel more "normal", that would be a different story.

[–]inkling 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (51 children)

The original comment that I replied to implied that whats good for the majority is always the best system which is the main thing I was responding to. Someone else asked if I thought racial segregation and systems that cater to able bodied people kept the most amount of people safe and I said some people perceive it that way. You interpretted that to mean that I thought that people were afraid of disability accomodations which is not what I meant by some people believe that systems that cater to able bodied people keep the most amount of people safe so anything else isn't necessary if most people are safe anyway. That doesn't mean I think that people were afraid of disability accomodations, only that I think people thought they were unnecessary. Understand?

Besides, absolutely nothing for transgender people benefits a majority.

I didn't say it did? I said the opposite.

(My comment doesn't make any sense now that you've edited yours so I'm pasting your original comment for context)

Because you said it was about safety, or rather fears for safety. Besides, absolutely nothing for transgender people benefits a majority. It’s absurd to compare the wants of a small group to the actual needs of people with disabilities.

I disagree morality has nothing to do with it, if accomodating someone's gender has no proven risk and not accomodating their gender has a proven risk. Thats clearly a morality issue to me.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

You need to prove there’s no risk which is a tall order considering tw have already harmed women in women’s spaces.

What’s good for the majority works perfectly fine in sexed spaces. The morally correct option would not be taking those away, it would be to provide an extra space for trans people without disrupting women’s safety.

Threats of suicide are not much defense when stacked up against rapists. Suicide can be prevented by putting the person in appropriate psychiatric care. This is a more appropriate response than giving them the thing they threaten suicide over. The emotional manipulation of suicide threats to control others behaviour is an utter moral failure so not sure how there’s moral superiority in caving to manipulative men.

Women cannot be as protected from men without our spaces. Taking that away is not moral, even when manipulators try to say it is.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

Threats of suicide are not much defense when stacked up against rapists. Suicide can be prevented by putting the person in appropriate psychiatric care. This is a more appropriate response than giving them the thing they threaten suicide over.

Yes. This. All of this.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Except...they didn't? These things were not put in place for the safety of the majority, and they certainly weren't put in place because the vulnerable groups asked for said protections. Sooo...what's the point of lying that this was "perceived" in a way it wasn't? Except because you know your entire argument is bullshit?

Let me spell this out to you, and I'll try to make it simple enough that even a trans rights activist will be able to understand it: Women have been preyed on and endangered by men for all of history, to the point of their freedoms, safety and privacy being severely violated this fact. That is why they needed and demanded protections in the form of female spaces, so they could function normally in the public sphere. This was not the case for racial segregation that was imposed onto black people against their will and due to ideas of white supremacy, nor for the lack of disabled spaces resulting from neglect and lack of visibility of disabled people's needs.

Now, using your ass-backwards logic, you could argue that having to have disabled parking spaces and ramps is no different from stoning a woman for being a witch, since both laws are in place because "the majority perceives it that way". Gosh, it's almost like there's more to this whole thing than just "what the majority says".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

If she passes, the likelihood of her using the women’s room drastically decreases, but if she did- she’s female. Regardless of how she appears or how anyone feels, no one has a right to tell her she can’t use female spaces.

She may get harassed, but seeing as how most women won’t harass someone they think is a male, at most I think other women may double take-maybe even stare-and stay away, and maybe say something to a manager/owner or another person they are with after they aren’t in the presence of the person they mistook to be a man

If it turns into an issue, a simple “I’m trans” would likely clear things up.

There’s never going to be a foolproof system that can’t be abused/manipulated. There will be trans people who pass and use the wrong bathroom, there will even be people who aren’t trans who are mistaken for the opposite sex- that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be any type of system in place or that whatever system is in place should prioritize trans people to the detriment of everyone else.

Side note- Of course I’m sure you could bust out some example(s) of women being harassed because other women (or even actual men) mistook them for a man, but that’s not a wise door to open because we can show some things that TW have done in female spaces that are “unsavory” to say the least, and if the response is “most TW don’t act like that/that never rarely happens”, keep that same energy.

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

You say women won't harrass someone and then give many examples of people who WILL harrass TM in female bathrooms. Owners, managers, some women, other men. So how is that okay?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Re Owners, managers, other people: asking someone you think is a male what they were doing in the women’s room is not harassment if it directly affects you or your establishment, even if it is upsetting or makes someone uncomfortable. It can be done discreetly, it can be done respectfully, and the people I listed would be rather inclined to go about bringing up the subject in a discreet and polite manner. Most people don’t jump to harass others. Particularly not business owners, managers, or women.

Im not saying that harassment doesn’t or can’t happen, I’m saying the idea that radfems and conservatives will jump to harass anyone- or that people in general jump to harass someone else- is ridiculous. The people who will harass them are not doing it because they are conservative or because they are radfems. Some of them may be either of those things, but violent people exist on all political parties and in all ideologies. They aren’t violent because they are conservative or radfem.

And any transman who passes and uses the women’s room for some reason would likely expect reactions. I doubt they’d be surprised if a manager, owner, or anyone else approached them and asked about it. They know they look male. They know they went into a female space. I’m gonna give them the benefit of the doubt I gave you, and assume they can put two and two together if an issue arises.

All of this to say- the issue can be resolved without resorting to harassment.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I didn’t give any actual examples so what are you talking about?

I said I’m sure you could possibly find some example out there. There are some crazy ass people in the world, you can find just about anything. But that it doesn’t mean that the “craziness” you may find if you dig for it is typical. I’m saying if when transwomen do weird or even violent shit in female spaces we are expected to accept that that’s not indicative of how TW behave generally, so extend that same energy if you do see some random incident were someone who is female has her sex questioned.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I was accepting the idea that what you were posting about could happen. And you still ignored everything I said that actually mattered lol

The real answer is if they actually look like a man, they don’t bother with the women’s room. So if they’re in the women’s room, we know they’re a transman (or at least that they are clearly female) not a man by looking at them.

Edit- fixed typo

[–]inkling 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Uh you wrote me two comments, one claiming you didn't give any examples and the other addressing your examples, so I'm not sure whats going on here

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I didn’t give you examples of anyone who would harass someone. I gave you examples of people a woman may turn to if she is concerned because she saw someone she assumed to be a man in a female space. There’s a clear difference. I realized you didn’t comprehend that difference, so I made a second comment to clarify.

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I guess we have different life experiences then.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

So you don’t actually want to debate and you’re ending the convo? Because Idk what to even say something that vague.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I swear to god you could write a trans-activist bot and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

…okay lol

Glad you got that off your chest, just not sure what the point was

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm saying how often these discussions with trans-rights-activists all go the same way. They say something, GC explains why it's wrong, TRA either disappears, repeats that transwomen are women or says that they "feel" differently or that that's just their opinion with no further explanation.

[–]inkling 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I thought you were pretty needlessly rude in your response so decided not to engage further in that moment, yes.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Where was I rude? Lol

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just advocate for third spaces and trans identified people won't have to worry about any possible harrasment.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Do you think conservatives and radical feminists will be okay with trans men who pass using the women's bathroom and not harass them at all?

Women fearing male presence in their spaces and policing female spaces to keep men out is not "harassment".

This problem would be easily solved if people's IDs accurately reflected their sex. Women are right to call you out if they think you're a man violating their spaces, and you could clear this misunderstanding by confirming you are female. Your argument is like saying that we shouldn't have any restrictions on selling alcohol and cigarettes to minors because a small number of kids can be mistaken for adults.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, pretty much. I think there could still be cases in which some women would wonder why "a man" is in a women' s bathroom, but if we all had the certainty that only females were allowed in women' s spaces, then not only most of those complainers would probably stop having issues, but also, they would be silenced immediately because those male-presenting-women would have the same rights as them to be there.

As long as we allow sanctioned lies on official documents, problems will keep happening.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As more women become gender-nonconforming (which is a good thing), I have no doubt we will see these misunderstandings happen more and more. Misunderstandings don't render sexed spaces unnecessary or ineffectual, however.

[–]inkling 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Women fearing male presence in their spaces and policing female spaces to keep men out is not "harassment".

I didn't say it was. I was asking if you thought it would lead to actual harrassment.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ah, so, you're just asking a stupid and pointless question to which we both know the answer is "no".

See, the whole problem with this idiot act is that, if you expect everything you say to be taken literally, in the most limited capacity and not be considered for what it actually is, you end up sounding even dumber than if you'd stuck to the original question.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

A helpful way to illustrate the issues here is to look at the matter of conventions and laws regarding the use of other kinds of public resources, such as roadways and sidewalks.

Used to be, roads were for - and shared by - pedestrians, people on horseback and in vehicles drawn by horses or other animals such as mules, or drawn by humans as in the case of rickshaws. Then in the late 19th century bicycles were invented and started to become popular, so the people already in the roads had to budge up a bit to accommodate people on bikes. All good until the 20th century when the internal combustion engine was invented.

Very quickly the roads were filled with automobiles, motorized carriages and motor trucks, crowding out, outpacing and often terrifying the pedestrians, people on horseback and in animal- and human-drawn conveyances, and very often frightening the horses and other animals too. Soon sidewalks were invented, along with road lanes and a plethora of rules governing what kind of vehicles could use the road, who was allowed to drive them, limits on the speeds they were allowed to travel, requirements to use horns, horse blinders, and so on. Which became codified in traffic laws and led to innovations like driver's licenses, traffic signs/lights, traffic police, driving lessons/schools and tests, along with new bureaucracies like DMVs.

In my own lifetime, I've witnessed many conflicts arise over who and what kinds of vehicles get to use public roadways and sidewalks and under what conditions - and changes in the customs and laws around these shared resources have occurred as a a result. Every time a new mode of wheeled transport or recreation comes on the scene - roller skates, kids' bikes with training wheels, skateboards, Segways, razors, roller blades, golf carts, bulky motorized mobility scooters, oversized prams, double-wide strollers, space-hogging jogging strollers, food carts, 18 wheeler trucks, SUVs, super-sized SUVs like the Ford Expedition and Hummers, super-long party limos, super-compacts, mini cars, three-wheeled vehicles like tuk tuks and so on - there has been conflict and discussion about how to incorporate them into the flow of human traffic to be fair to them and to all others using the roadways and sidewalks. Similar conflicts have arisen over the use of paths in parks and nature trails that originally were meant for walkers, hikers, snowshoers, X-C skiers, dog-walkers and people pulling sleds - but over time were increasingly taken over by people on mountain, dirt and BMX-type bikes; snow mobiles; motorized ATVs, etc.

Other conflicts have arisen over the way skateboarders have shown a tendency to move in on, and take over, public places like parks, parking lots and public stairways, along with ramps and handrails meant for people with physical disabilities who use walkers and wheelchairs or need to rely on handrails for balance, strength and stability.

I think today with women's restrooms, change rooms and other female-only spaces we're at a similar juncture to the times in the past (and present) when new kinds of transport and recreational vehicles led to - and continue to cause - conflicts over roadways, sidewalks, foot paths, stairs and other kinds of public amenities meant for specific groups such as persons with mobility issues.

Women and girls who've used, and use, testosterone along with surgeries to remove their breasts and reshape their bodies (such as the internal abdominal prostheses that El Page has had implanted), and who also use penis packers, in order to change their appearance to resemble males and can (try to) "pass" as men or boys have created a predicament for themselves and for the vast majority of girls and women who do not taking testosterone and are not trying to create the pretense/impression that we are male rather than female. Women and girls who've chosen to change their appearance so radically that they look like men to others have to know that their presence in women's loos and other female spaces like locker rooms, change rooms, mat wards, hospital wards, rape refuges etc is bound to be distressing and frightening for many bog standard girls and women. And I've heard many so-called "trans men" acknowledge this.

I think this problem that is of "trans men's" making is also theirs to devise solutions for - solutions that suit not just their sister/fellow "trans men," but which take into account the feelings, needs and sensibilities of the rest of the female population. I don't think it's a problem that should be foisted onto "GC" people and portrayed as one we have an obligation to solve.

BTW, as the poster here who has had more years - nay, decades - using women's restrooms, locker rooms, change rooms, etc than most or all other posters, I can testify that historically the majority of girls and women in the country and region where I've spent most of my life - USA, NY metro area and New England - have not seemed to have had any problems with the presence in such spaces of girls and women who in today's nomenclature would be described as "gender nonconforming" or even "mannish" in appearance and affect. Butch-looking women and girls have always been around, as have women who don't at all conform to today's ridiculous ultra "feminine" dress and grooming standards. Back in the 70s, 80s and 90s, the bulk of women I used to see in loos and locker rooms, as well as in female spaces like breastfeeding support groups and "Mommy and Me" classes, would be considered "GNC" by today's standards. The big difference is that back then, there wasn't a flood of girls and women trying to give the impression that they were not female by taking T, growing and proudly sporting beards, getting their breasts removed and undergoing body-sculpting, wearing penis packers or getting phalloplasties.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I can testify that historically the majority of girls and women in the country and region where I've spent most of my life - USA, NY metro area and New England - have not seemed to have had any problems with the presence in such spaces of girls and women who in today's nomenclature would be described as "gender nonconforming" or even "mannish" in appearance and affect.

The big difference is that back then, there wasn't a flood of girls and women trying to give the impression that they were not female by taking T, growing and proudly sporting beards, getting their breasts removed and undergoing body-sculpting, wearing penis packers or getting phalloplasties.

No, the big difference was that there wasn' t a flood of guys trying to give the impression that they were women. I think that most of the issues towards women who "present" as men or simply aren' t feminine come from the fact that they are worried that those women are, in fact, men. Alternatively, it can be a question of finding hypocrisy unbearable: think of that woman in the Olympics who "identify" as nonbinary and still competes in women' s leagues.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I purposely did not bring up men trying to give the impression that they are women because I thought that this thread was/is specifically about female people who "identify as" "trans men" and have altered their bodies and appearance significantly to give the impression that they are male. Such as Buck Angel, Aaron Kimberly Scott Newgent, Ken Pirie, Aaron Terrell, Chase Strangio, Mars, Aaron George, Stephen Whittle, Freddie McConnell. It's not about the males who are pretending and claiming to be women today.

Nor did I understand this thread to be about all the girls and women who are claiming to be "non binary" today like that Quinn person who played women's soccer/football at the Tokyo Olympics. Also, from my POV, the new "non binary" girls and women with their short hairdos and blue, pink and purple hued dye jobs aren't likely to raise any eyebrows - or even warrant second glance - from most women in women's loos and other spaces coz they don't really come off as all that "GNC" - at least not by the standards of the 70s, 80s and 90s. Lots of women had Annie Lennox- and Grace Jones-style short cuts, buzz cuts and even shaved heads in the 80s and 90 - and in the 70s, "androgyny" was a look aspired to by both sexes, hence the common hairstyles from shoulder length locks to the shag. From the early 70s on, tens of millions of girls and women also wore "unisex" and "masculine" clothing such as Dr Martens, overalls, men's Army surplus, flannel shirts, men's jeans, jackets, shoes, T-shirts, button-downs, cardigans, man-tailored suits and tuxes, mechanics-style jumpsuits, cowboy boots, men's jean jackets, down vests, men's overcoats, parkas, sweatsuits, hats, gloves, briefcases, etc - and we weren't considered "GNC" for doing so. I wore a man-tailored (but made for women) tux with a white wool dinner jacket with satin piping, a red satin cummerbund and black satin trousers to a school prom in 1972 - not to express "gender nonconformity," but coz it was a cool look and the height of cutting-edge style and I got a great bargain on it at a women's discount designer store.

Also, for the record, in the 1970s, 80s and 90s there actually were quite a number of guys in the US (and Canada and the UK) trying to give the impression they were women. And they were trying to barge into women's spaces back then as well. The first time I had personal, face to face experience with such men was in 1974. They were constantly trying to get into women's spaces - such as women's conferences, sports, social gatherings, festivals and the women's gym I used to go to in NYC - in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Male transvestism, cross-dressing and "trans-sexualism" are not new developments that only cropped up and became visible and an issue for women and women's spaces in the present century. The heyday of the world's "sex change clinics" for male patients such as Georges Burou's world-famous one in Casablanca was in the 1960s and 1970s; the "sex change" clinic for males who wished they were women in Trinidad Colorado was going like gangbusters through the 70s, 80s and 90s. Gore Vidal's novel about a "male to female transsexual" Myra Breckenridge was published in 1968; the movie version starring Raquel Welch as the "MtF" title character came out a few years later. James Jan Morris's memoir of his "transition," Conundrum, was a best-seller in the UK, North America and elsewhere in 1974. Janice Raymond's feminist landmark book The Transsexual Empire came out in 1979. Richard Raskin/Renee Richards, who "transitioned" in the early 1970s made headlines soon after for "becoming a woman" and then suing for the right to play women's professional tennis; Richards won his case in 1976. John Irving's The World According to Garp featuring a former NFL star who became a "male-to-female" transsexual named Roberta Muldoon was published in 1978 and was a worldwide publishing sensation that became a best-seller in multiple different languages.

But whilst male cross-dressers, transvestites and "transsexuals" were well-known and fairly common in the 70s, 80s and 90s, their female counterparts were not. The flood of women taking extreme measures like ingesting T, getting double mastectomies and growing beards to try to look like men is mostly a phenomenon of the 21st century. Though it actually first started in the 1990s, as was documented in Ariel Levy's 2004 book Female Chauvinist Pigs and has been related by a number of women who lived through those times and were greatly affected by the new trend of taking T that emerged amongst some lesbians in places like SF and NYC in the 1990s.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It not being the purpose of the thread doesn' t mean that it should be ignored, especially when it' s likely the main reason why women who present as men are kicked out of women' s spaces and also, probably, why OP has asked the question to begin with trying to use it as a gotcha.

Also, yes, transvestitism isn' t a new concept, but there is a huge difference between a bunch of men doing it and being shamed/mocked for it, not to mention having the law not on their side if they decided to use women' s spaces, and lots of men doing it and being celebrated and legally protected for it in the form of being allowed to use women' s spaces.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

You keep saying in your responses that there’s no risk or reason for people who aren’t trans to not accommodate trans people. Like there’s nothing for us to be worried about.

That’s just not true.

There have been incidents of violence from trans people in spaces their sex would normally have prevented them entering. This shouldn’t be dismissed even if it’s a relatively small amount of incidents. Those incidents occurred. In a space that, had the space remained sex segregated, the incident wouldn’t have been able to occur because the TW (edit- it’s usually a TW, but I should have said trans people) wouldn’t have been in the space to begin with. It doesn’t matter if it only happens rarely- we could have not had it happen at all. And you can’t deny that this does open up the possibility of someone pretending to be trans to cause harm or claiming to be trans after causing harm. Maybe it’s unlikely. Maybe it’s already happened but we don’t know because now all you have to do to be trans is claim it. How do you prove someone isn’t really trans (or a man… or a woman… or non-binary etc), if anyone can be whatever the fuck they say they identify as? I mean, have you seen how many men in prison are suddenly requesting to be transferred to women’s prisons in california? I read it’s like 1,200 men. All transwomen all of a sudden… come on.

And even if there were no incidents of violence or harm- it’s actually scary as fuck to know that my rights and safe spaces can be stripped from me because a man wants them for himself or another woman can’t handle the truth of her sexed body. I don’t feel safe knowing any male can enter any of my safe spaces and that if he does act inappropriately, if I say something I risk being vilified. It’s quite terrifying to know that mental illness allowed to run rampant and unchecked is all it took to dismantle women’s rights.

That’s just the beginning of what’s scary because of what trans people are demanding.

It’s not okay to disrupt everyone else’s rights and spaces because an extremely minute percentage of the population can’t handle reality.

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Can you provide some sources? Because so far I've provided two which have found no link between trans friendly bathroom policies and increases in violence and no one has provided any sources against that.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your sources are a paywall and interpretations of an afternoon spent by psychologists google searching lmaoooo

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

Sources for what, specifically?

As far as your sources-

One source I’d have to pay to read and that’s not going to happen

The other two just say if everyone else doesn’t bend to the whims of trans people they will threaten suicide often, which… everyone already knows… and as someone else mentioned- the proper response to a suicide threat is not to give the person what they are demanding

If someone is so entitled and self involved that other people having rights they can’t disrupt causes them to threaten suicide- I kind of don’t give even one single fuck.

I also didn’t even say it increased violence. I said it could increase the potential for violence and that there have been incidents of violence and that truth shouldn’t be ignored because the number of reported incidents that we know of isn’t high when if sex based spaces were maintained the incidents, few and far between as they may be, wouldn’t have even occurred. Kind of similar to how less than 50 trans people were killed in the US last year (and several of those cases had nothing to do with being trans, and the overwhelming majority of the cases are a specific demographic), but you all want us to take the “epidemic" of violence against trans people seriously.

But also- women shouldn’t have to justify not wanting to share female spaces with men.

You also keep ignoring what I say about other people also mattering and having rights…

Edit- spelling

Edit again- went and read the whole post, HP gave you several sources. You really need more?

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

women shouldn’t have to justify not wanting to share female spaces with men.

Segregating the sexes should be justified. Just saying "Because I wanna" doesn't cut it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I disagree.

Why do I have to explain to anyone why I want a space that’s already mine to remain mine?

If You want access to a space not meant for you, you ask the people the space belongs to for that access.

If they say no, tough shit. Women don’t owe transwomen a fucking thing, not even an explanation. They already know why, they just refuse to accept the why. I’m not ever going to get behind the idea that women have to justify wanting to maintain female spaces.

The answer is because it’s a female space. It’s that simple. And it’s okay that it’s that simple. We don’t owe males- any males- shit.

It’s already justified- which is why we don’t have to further justify it.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Why do I have to explain to anyone why I want a space that’s already mine to remain mine?

Because excluding demographics from certain spaces has to have a fucking reason for it? Do you also think white people didn't have to justify the existence of whites-only spaces because "it was already theirs"? If you cannot provide any reason for it other than "Because I say so", then your argument is as valid as SelfID or appeal to tradition/status quo. If your exact same line your reasoning and arguments can be used equally to support things like white supremacy, then your logic is faulty and dangerous.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Like I said- sex based spaces already exist. They have to justify undoing that. We don’t have to justify maintaining it.

We have listed the reasons why so many fucking times so this is starting to sound like just another one of your random moments of coming after one of my comments out of boredom or something.

Maybe we have to explain to the powers that be why we want to maintain our spaces- we damn sure don’t owe trans people or their allies any explanations.

I have provided reasoning several times. So unless you think any time a man demands something from women women have to explain why he’s not entitled to it, you’re kind of just typing out of your ass.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

sex based spaces already exist. They have to justify undoing that. We don’t have to justify maintaining it.

So your only argument is a fallacy of an appeal to tradition/popularity/status quo. Lovely.

We have listed the reasons why so many fucking times

If you don't like having to prove your point, feel free to leave the debate sub or any sort of debate in general. Intellectual laziness doesn't make "cuz I say so" a valid argument.

Your entire argument is that you "don't have to explain anything", because you're apparently some special majesty who's so important you should just decide how the universe works and everyone should nod.

this is starting to sound like just another one of your random moments of coming after one of my comments out of boredom or something.

lmao there are like 5 people commenting on the regular here. You're not some victim of stalking if you regularly say dumb shit that I call out. Seriously, get over yourself. I don't care who you are, I don't care what your life story is, I don't care if you think I'm being rude, I only care that someone's saying stupid shit that is wrong and deserves to be corrected and called out. It's that simple. If you can't handle being challenged or heaven forbid having to rationalise whatever comes out of your mouth, then don't join a debate sub.

[–]FlanJam 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (54 children)

They'd probably get kicked out for appearing like a male in the women's room. So in a sense, they effectively forfeit access to the women's room once they transition.

I dunno what conservatives or radfems would think or do.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Does any woman who is mistaken for a man also forego that right?

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Of course not.

edit: I dont think I need to explain further, its pretty obvious yes?

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Your claim was that appearing male effectively removes a woman's right to be in a female space.

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, because passing as male makes it very difficult to use the women's room. For someone who passes extremely well, it becomes so impractical they virtually can't use the women's room anymore. Unless they want to constantly get complaints directed towards them every time they pee.

But all this is a non-issue, because transmen who pass very well will want to use the men's room anyways.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then it sounds more like they didn't forego the right to use female spaces, but rather the right to use them without raising suspicion.

[–]FlanJam 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, that's a better way to say it

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

they effectively forfeit access to the women's room once they transition

So not all females have the right to sex segregation?

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm just saying, in terms of real life practicality, it would be difficult for a passing transman to use the women's restroom.

But technically speaking, that is correct, not all females have that right. For example, women in California don't have that right, as demonstrated by the Wi Spa incident some weeks ago.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

They do, but obviously transmen who manage to legitimately pass have made extensive efforts to look like they do not have that right.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

But what about detransitioners? They shouldn't be exiled from female spaces for a mistake that they made in the past. In some cases, it was not even their choice. Some of them were transitioned as minors before they could give meaningful consent.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No, they shouldn’t be exiled. But the world is not perfect and very occasionally shit will happen. They still have a right to be there but it’s silly to act like other women are bad if they see someone with a beard and no breasts and think the person is a bloke for a moment.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I agree that if someone appears to be a biological male due to testosterone use, the situation may occasionally be awkward and require further explanation. I've never taken hormones, but it's my choice to have short hair and dress in men's clothes. I realize people might not immediately recognize that I'm female as a result. I just want detransitioned women to feel that female spaces are still for them.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We’d all like that but again, if someone makes every effort to not look like their sex, they really aren’t in much position to get annoyed if they are seen as the opposite sex.

Like, I’ve never seen a really butch woman and thought that’s a man. They still have women’s bodies even if they are a large woman with small breasts.
I’m not sure it’s a huge issue that effects thousands daily. The most butch women are still visibly women. One or two dipshits who can’t comprehend that women’s hair can be shaved off aren’t exactly preventing huge swaths of visibly gnc people from using a toilet or change room.

I think we’d all be happier if people didn’t see clothes and hair as sexed, because it’s a stupid concept and causes issues like this one, but we have to be realistic.

If I go to Kmart wearing the Kmart uniform I can’t get shitty if I’m asked where the towels are, yknow?

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I thought how someone looked didnt matter, their sex did.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No-one said it doesn't matter, but that it doesn't trump their sex. If I wear a convincing gorilla costume and people freak out, that doesn't prove that I've turned into a gorilla, nor does it prove that we don't need to keep wild animals fenced off. Obviously whether a person gets mistaken for a man or a woman (regardless of whether they're trans) does factor into how they're treated. A woman with a masculine name might get more respect when writing e-mails, but that doesn't mean she's now a man or that she proves misogyny isn't a thing.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Their sex does matter, but someone who deliberately makes their sex ambiguous to others is going to look less like their sex than a woman who hasn’t eaten testosterone and removed their breasts. Duh

You can’t act like sex isn’t part of how people look.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (37 children)

On the old GC sub there was a thread1 where one user was in a bar restroom and heard a male-sounding voice so she asked why was there a man in the women’s restroom and the person's friend yelled at her for misgendering this person. For all we know, it could have been a trans man, a detransitioned woman, or maybe a cis woman with a deep voice or has PCOS. I did watch a documentary about detransitioners linked on Ovarit and there was a detrans woman with a male voice obviously caused by testosterone. So I would think this user would treat passing trans men the same way.

There is an Ovarit thread2 where a user said if she finds someone she thinks is a man in women’s restrooms or changing rooms, she will confront them and step in their way if they will not leave, and will even use pepper spray if necessary. The thread stayed up, got 71 upvotes and many users said TRAs are the reason butch/masculine-looking women are being harassed in women's restrooms.

In 2016 in Danbury, CT there was an actual case of a woman harassed in a Walmart bathroom after being mistaken for a trans woman.3 The stranger approached her and said, “You’re disgusting!” and “You don’t belong here!” Imagine if the stranger had pepper spray or had the attitude that she will harass anyone who she thinks is a man. There have been cases where trans women were assaulted killed for using the women's restroom.

In NY it's illegal to harass people for using restrooms that match their gender identity. I like that we have this law. In fact, I think all restrooms should be unisex. Restrooms are separated by stalls, and it shouldn't matter wo is in the next stall unless they are bothering you. I consider questioning random strangers what they're doing in a public place harassment. I know GCs may not think that way. The reason why we have "bathroom bills" is because trans and cis people are being harassed for using the bathroom that matches their gender. Really, unless someone is bothering you or committing a crime, you have no business confronting them. I use whichever restroom is closest, and I don't pay attention to strangers. I just come, do my business and leave. That's how it should be.

References:

1 Was shamed last night for asking why there was a man in the women’s restroom. Reddit, 3 Nov. 2019

2 I’m done. I refuse to allow men in women’s bathrooms or changing rooms. If I think someone using them is a man, I will confront him, and step in his way if he will not leave. Ovarit, 29 Nov. 2020

3 Woman mistaken for transgender harassed in Walmart bathroom The News-Times, 16 May. 2016

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

I think all restrooms should be unisex.

Oh look, it's the person who's continuously lied and ignored the statistics of male violence over women and the resulting need for women's spaces! You wanna disappear again?

I know GCs may not think that way.

Yeah, since we don't base our views on continuously lying and ignoring the statistics of male violence over women and the resulting need for women's spaces, we have sort of a different take on it. It's almost like lying and ignoring all evidence results in different takes compared to people who have a grasp on reality.

Really, unless someone is bothering you or committing a crime, you have no business confronting them.

Right, it's the women's fault that they can't live their lives and share spaces with men normally without the men using every opportunity to prey on them. They should just learn to accept these things as a normal, quirky part of life with men instead of being exclusionary bigots and putting petty fears like not wanting to get raped, assaulted and killed over male desires to prey on them even more easily.

That's how it should be.

Agreed. You know how it also should be? That women don't get perved on and stalked by creepy men, or be surrounded by men's misogynistic comments or get asked to do sexual favours for men. But I guess when you believe that male violence over women is just a conspiracy made by hysterical women, it's not surprising that you're happily blaming women for men ruining their lives to such an extreme that they literally need separate spaces for safety.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (34 children)

Oh look, it's the person who's continuously lied and ignored the statistics of male violence over women and the resulting need for women's spaces! You wanna disappear again?

Whether I lied or didn't lie about statistics of male violence, I still believe all public facilities should be unisex.

Right, it's the women's fault that they can't live their lives and share spaces with men normally without the men using every opportunity to prey on them. They should just learn to accept these things as a normal, quirky part of life with men instead of being exclusionary bigots and putting petty fears like not wanting to get raped, assaulted and killed over male desires to prey on them even more easily.

I wrote "unless someone is bothering you or committing a crime, you have no business confronting them." Yes, if someone is sexually harassing you or trying to rape you, etc. you have a right to call the police, complain to the manager or local authority and you always had that right. What you don't have the right to do is to confront random strangers for no reason or question their presence. That is harassment.

Agreed. You know how it also should be? That women don't get perved on and stalked by creepy men, or be surrounded by men's misogynistic comments or get asked to do sexual favours for men.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, there will always be evil people in this world. This is why we have the criminal justice system to prosecute and incarcerate rapists and stalkers. Let's make it better!

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I still believe all public facilities should be unisex

Why not both? Have women's, men's, and unisex. That way people have a choice of which they are most comfortable with.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

But why do we need that? Restrooms are already separated by stalls. so it's not like we're seeing people naked. I believe locker rooms should be separated by stalls, because I don't believe people should have to see naked people to change, regardless of what kind of genitalia they have.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You won’t respond to this either because you refuse to engage with me but why the hell do you think that what you want trumps the wants of other women who do want the safety and privacy of women’s spaces? What justification is there for taking that away just because you don’t like it? Why is the comfort of women who think differently to you unimportant and something to be disregarded?

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I think the burden is on you to say why we should take them away. Single sex restrooms are already the norm, most people are happy with them, and there isn't any issue with them that couldn't be solved with the addition of a 3rd unisex room. So to take them away is a really extreme move to make, you'd need a very compelling reason to do so. And I don't think saying there's no need for them is a strong enough reason even if it were true.

But I do think there are good reasons for single sex spaces, mainly safety and privacy. I don't have the source on hand but I read a statistic somewhere that women are more likely to be harassed in unisex bathrooms compared to women's restrooms. And anecdotally I've heard so many stories of women using the restroom to get away from creepy dudes. Not to mention issues with spycams, peeping toms, or just weird pervs getting off to women pissing.

And on the privacy side, periods are so stigmatized in many cultures. Dealing with that around men only makes it more difficult. Some men get pissy just at the sight of a pad or tampon. Or how about religious women who need to fix their hijab? Or what about women who simply don't wanna be around men when she feels vulnerable? A thin 1 inch stall wall between you and a man isn't very comforting.

But the main point is, why take them away if most people are happy with them, and there's no problem with them? It just seems needlessly destructive to me.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Single sex restrooms are already the norm, most people are happy with them, and there isn't any issue with them that couldn't be solved with the addition of a 3rd unisex room.

How do you know most people are happy with them? Is there a survey?

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Women and feminists are the whole reason we have sexed bathrooms in the first place, so women have made their feelings on the matter very clear. As for what men think about women's rights and protections, who gives a shit?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

You got a survey saying most women love your idea of making their toilets unisex? Which subreddit did you use as your model for the opinions of the worlds women? One populated almost exclusively by tra supporting men no doubt?

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Don't take this the wrong way but I've noticed you like to answer back with questions that don't really address the main point? Perhaps this thread has run its course, which is fine. No I dont have a survey of how many people are happy with single sex restrooms, its just an assumption but its doesn't change the argument. Which is, single sex restrooms provide safety & privacy, and no one is really pushing to remove them, so it seems rather destructive to get rid of them.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You have to be Fuckin trolling with that last bit oh my god. Nobody could be that daft

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Whether I lied or didn't lie about statistics of male violence, I still believe all public facilities should be unisex.

Right. Why let facts and reality get in the way of what you "believe"? If you believe the Earth is flat, and the moon is made of cheese, then don't let anyone tell u otherwise, boo 😘

Yes, if someone is sexually harassing you or trying to rape you, etc. you have a right to call the police, complain to the manager or local authority and you always had that right.

Yup, when women get raped or assaulted, they should just call a time-out with their attacker until they call the police or sue them. And as we all know, justice rarely fails women in this area, and the biggest problem those privileged women face is being so overburdened by non-stop police reports that they can't function in day-to-day life normally, in which case, they should stop being such hysterical over-reacting misandrists. Now, sure, women will be traumatised to the point of fearing being in public even more than they already are, but at least they can rest assured that they can complain to the manager afterwards and leave a one-star rating.

What you don't have the right to do is to confront random strangers for no reason or question their presence. That is harassment.

If a space excludes them for safety reasons, then those strangers have no business being there in the first place. Does a person who breaks into your home need to kill you or rape you before you can do anything about it?

I agree with you.

Uuuh, no, you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't be lying through your teeth, sweeping the issue under the rug, parroting misogynistic myths and trying to remove protections and rights of vulnerable groups. Saying "I'm not sexist, but..." is not the fool-proof disclaimer you seem to think it is.

Unfortunately, there will always be evil people in this world.

I love how you say "people", like a well-trained parrot. Nothing whatsoever suspicious about the fact that sexual assault is committed almost exclusively by men to the point of most women's lives being controlled and endangered by this fact. Nah, it's just "evil people", because that lets us lie and gaslight everyone about a pandemic of male sexual violence and pretend it's everyone's problem.

This is why we have the criminal justice system to prosecute and incarcerate rapists and stalkers. Let's make it better!

By removing women's protections and only allowing them to confront their attackers after they've already been raped, because they're being such exclusionary misandrists towards the men consistently ruining their lives.

Victim-blaming women and shaming them for what misandrists they are because they're victimised and have their lives ruined by men is very feminist. After all, you only need to "feel" and "believe" that way, and that's it.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

Right. Why let facts and reality get in the way of what you "believe"? If you believe the Earth is flat, and the moon is made of cheese, then don't let anyone tell u otherwise, boo 😘

I believe all public facilities should be unisex. You believe all public facilities should be segregated by birth sex.

Yup, when women get raped or assaulted, they should just call a time-out with their attacker until they call the police or sue them. And as we all know, justice rarely fails women in this area, and the biggest problem those privileged women face is being so overburdened by non-stop police reports that they can't function in day-to-day life normally, in which case, they should stop being such hysterical over-reacting misandrists. Now, sure, women will be traumatised to the point of fearing being in public even more than they already are, but at least they can rest assured that they can complain to the manager afterwards and leave a one-star rating.

In that case we should be focusing our activism on reforming the criminal justice system, not self-ID or OnlyFans.

If a space excludes them for safety reasons, then those strangers have no business being there in the first place. Does a person who breaks into your home need to kill you or rape you before you can do anything about it?

If a space is open to the general public, it has no business excluding any demographic.

Uuuh, no, you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't be lying through your teeth, sweeping the issue under the rug, parroting misogynistic myths and trying to remove protections and rights of vulnerable groups. Saying "I'm not sexist, but..." is not the fool-proof disclaimer you seem to think it is.

I agree with you that women should not be perved on and stalked by creepy men. I don't agree that public facilities should be segregated by birth sex.

I love how you say "people", like a well-trained parrot. Nothing whatsoever suspicious about the fact that sexual assault is committed almost exclusively by men to the point of most women's lives being controlled and endangered by this fact. Nah, it's just "evil people", because that lets us lie and gaslight everyone about a pandemic of male sexual violence and pretend it's everyone's problem.

As a cis woman who has been harassed and assaulted by both cis women and cis men, I purposefully say "people" to include everyone.

By removing women's protections and only allowing them to confront their attackers after they've already been raped, because they're being such exclusionary misandrists towards the men consistently ruining their lives.

Victim-blaming women and shaming them for what misandrists they are because they're victimized and have their lives ruined by men is very feminist. After all, you only need to "feel" and "believe" that way, and that's it.

Just because you are a victim of a crime doesn't mean you get to harass random people in public.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I believe all public facilities should be unisex. You believe all public facilities should be segregated by birth sex.

Uh, yes, I know. We've...established this? We've also established why your view is wrong. You seem to think that saying that you have a belief somehow makes it valid by virtue of it being a belief, and when faced with the reasons why your belief is faulty, you default to repeating that you hold a belief. Honestly, this seems like a comedy sketch where someone's trying to explain something to a very stupid person who just keeps repeating the same sentence no matter what evidence the other person gives them.

In that case we should be focusing our activism on reforming the criminal justice system, not self-ID or OnlyFans.

Right, don't focus on what's actively contributing to ruining women's lives en masse at this very moment, focus on "reforming the criminal justice system", whatever that means (could women even have lives if they took every man being inappropriate or a creep to court?). Make it easier for men to prey on women and let even more women get harassed, assaulted and traumatised, but at least tell women they won't be misandrist bigots anymore and that they'll surely get justice afterwards. What's most important is that we've upheld the rule of always blaming women for men ruining their lives.

If a space is open to the general public, it has no business excluding any demographic.

Becauseee...you say so, and your word is law? Why excuse me, your majesty. I would've agreed that the Earth is flat had I known whose presence I was graced with.

I mean...why even have toilet stalls, then? Or changing rooms? After all, you're being "exclusionary". A row of toilets in a single room should be enough, and changing rooms aren't needed because people can just change out in the open. Also, no lockers should be provided in any sort of public space because anyone should have the right to snoop through anyone's stuff as long as they're in public.

Hell, why even have private property at all? If a space exists on city grounds, it has no business excluding anyone from it, right?

I agree with you that women should not be perved on and stalked by creepy men.

So, you consistently lie and lie through your teeth about this reality that women endure, but at least you're such a goody two-shoes that you oh so kindly fantasise about a beautiful world filled with rainbows where this simply doesn't happen. Aaand that's supposed to make your constant lying and sabotaging of attempts to improve things somehow better.

I don't agree that public facilities should be segregated by birth sex.

"I believe the Earth is flat."

"Uh, no, we've literally got pics from space of the Earth, all the other planets are spherical, boats disappear when they sail beyond the horizon and..."

"I believe the Earth is flat."

Literally a comedy sketch.

As a cis woman who has been harassed and assaulted by both cis women and cis men, I purposefully say "people" to include everyone.

Yeeeah, either you're an extreme outlier or you're twisting what happened due to the constant misogynistic biases you've shown to parrot. Both cases make your experiences irrelevant to the topic at large. You can tell me a random child has beaten you with a baseball bat, that still wouldn't render child protection irrelevant and create a need for legalisation to protect adults from children.

Just because you are a victim of a crime doesn't mean you get to harass random people in public.

No, it just means that the victims overwhelmingly targeted by abuse to the point of it interfering with their lives in public deserve spaces where they can feel a modicum of safety in spaces designed to keep them safe from the people who overwhelmingly prey on them to the point of ruining their lives.

But hey, feel free to keep your doors open during the night and let any rando strangers walk into your house. As long as they don't literally start robbing you or worse, you have no right to do anything, right?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But you being the victim of a crime means you get to argue to take away all protection and privacy measures that prevent crime.

How many rapists do you think will take a time out while you go get the manager or security? Or are you saying women should just lie there and rehearse their statement for the police while the rapist does his thing? What made you hate other women so much that this is an acceptable thing to you to argue for?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I'm not taking away privacy. Restrooms' are already separated by stalls, so you already have privacy. I even advocate to add stalls to locker rooms, so I'm advocating for increased privacy. You and I have different ideas of privacy.

Most rapes don't happen in public restrooms, and most victims know their rapist. So the chance of a random stranger raping you in a public restroom is extremely rare.

How many rapists do you think will take a time out while you go get the manager or security?

The reality is, being out in public has risks. I take walks at nights every Friday. There is a chance someone will attack me or rape me, but that is unlikely to happen. But if someone does attack me or rape me, I will go to the police, and I hope that person will be fully prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It's unfortunate if it will have to come to that. But that's what you do when you're the victim of a crime. I still get up, take the subway and go to work, go see friends, even with the risk that something might happen. And if something does happen, I will call the police.

What made you hate other women so much that this is an acceptable thing to you to argue for?

Being against sex-segregated spaces ≠ hating other women.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You know why it’s unlikely you’ll be raped in the ladies toilets at the club? Cause men are barred. You can try and argue around that but it’s true. Letting men/transwomen (same damn thing) in is taking away that safety for no reason other than a few people with hurt feelings and nothing else important going on in their lives or minds.

You said that women can go to the police or security if they are attacked, at what point of the attack do you think women can leave to get help? How do you justify endorsing a system that implies that it is better to try and prosecute a rapist or otherwise violent attacker after allowing them access to victims? How do you justify taking away protections? Do you not know what prevention and protection mean? Nobody gives a fuck that you will totally prosecute a pickpocketer on the subway. Being pickpocketed does not leave you bleeding, dehumanised, maybe beaten to within in inch of your life, possibly pregnant, possibly with a disease, and traumatised. Rape kits are backed up for years rendering prosecution nearly impossible, the attacker may be part of the law enforcement, the attacker may have not been recognised, there’s rarely a witness making prosecution harder, the victim may be under duress not to report the crime due to their own involvement with illegal activities, the victim may not report because of fears of retribution, the victim may try and report and share my own experience of being told I shouldn’t have been drunk and asking if I was wearing something more revealing before I went to the station while rolling their eyes at you.

You are downplaying rape as either not a real concern or as an inevitability on the level of being mugged or shouted at in a large city. That action by itself screams misogyny.

It’s all well and good for you to say you aren’t but that’s simply untrue.

Sure, you don’t hate women you just find it acceptable to give our spaces to men who masturbate in them. Very supportive to women. You don’t hate women, you just support seemingly any movement that will take away out protections and rights.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So?

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They're entitled to, but I'm not sure that they would want to.

But I don't have a strong position on public restrooms. I personally use the men's quite often because I'm GNC and huge and easily mistaken for a dude at first glance, so a lot of the time it just seems like the easier choice. I've never been confronted in the men's room, but I have in the women's, even though I'm entitled to be there as a natal female. Ideally, gender-neutral third spaces would be preferable for those of us who might not feel comfortable or safe in the spaces that align with our biological sex.