top 100 commentsshow all 137

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (28 children)

1 - Sure, probably.

2 - 99% of the time it's what they have in their pants.

3 - Because it works? Why are anti-depressants sometimes used to treat ANXIETY instead of DEPRESSION?

4 - And you can prove this with stats that don't come from that one single GC think tank, right?

5 - Sucks to be them I guess, if you don't pass, you're living as whatever people see you as. If you're in a super liberal place maybe that's just a TW, if you aren't then probably not.

6 - So does neuroplasticity only exist when you guys want it to exist?

7 - IDK. It's not my fault language is changing and leaving you behind. It's just as much not my job to coddle you as it is not your job to coddle me.

8 - Literally only you guys see it as erasure, so no.

9a - They don't. The only people 'studying' desistance are people looking for those statistics, and use scummy ways to pad them like counting people who 'leave their clinic' for any reason as desisters.

b - Your guess is as good as mine. I'd be more than all for putting money into better vetting out young trans people, because it's still nowhere near perfect, but that's not the way the world works.

10 - No.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

2 - 99% of the time it's what they have in their pants.

Sorry, but the idea that "the difference between men & women" is mostly "what they have in their pants" not only comes off as puerile, it's a completely male POV.

The most important of the sex organs insofar as being determinative of whether one is male or female are the gonads, which produce the female or male gametes (ova or sperm) and also produce most of the major sex hormones that each sex produces which gender ideologues are focused on, namely estrogen in females and testosterone in males. (Females physiology involves a lot of other sex hormones too, but genderists seem focused on estrogen as the female hormone that counts most of all.)

But the only people whose gonads are in their pants - or between the legs, to use the other phrase commonly used in these comparisons - are males. The gonads of female people are inside our abdomens.

There are thousands of physical differences between male and female human beings entirely apart from with "what they have in their pants." Like the size of the hearts and lungs; the differences in the cells and secretions of the respiratory tract; the shape, size and density of bones.

Also, it's not the norm in every culture for people to wear pants (trousers, breeches). There are a lot of places in the world even today where even males wear attire that doesn't involve pants.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

1- that's certainly the GC view of men like Bruce Jenner

2- and the other 1%? does the difference suddenly change for them?

3- cross-sex hormones don't cure dysphoria, only desistance can do that, which transition hampers.

4- just do a google image search for "transgender sex offender", or is google images also a GC think tank?

5- ...I mean, that's the truscum view

6- again if brainsex is evidence of identity then either HSTS' are all gay guys, or all gay guys are women. The alternative is to chuck out the "evidence" & dispose of the "brainsex" argument altogether.

7- I think you mean law rather than language, since everyone still uses gender to refer to the sexes.

8- how is making every single-sex term unisex not erasure of the female sex?

9a- but even the DSM-V quotes a high desistance rate. is the highest scientific authority on the topic wrong? are you the authority? or is self-ID ideology anti-science?

b- according to the DSM-V up to 100% of early-onset dysphorics desist. Surely we should be looking into what is hindering the remainder from desisting, instead of assuming that "young trans people" are a real thing.

10- a wholly GC view

(I obviously asked too many questions. Apologies at all)

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

(I obviously asked too many questions. Apologies at all)

TBH, I'm sitting here stuck in an airport with nothing but a laptop because my flight was cancelled, this is the most fun I'm getting tonight. There's almost no way in hell I'm coming back to it when I'm home but it's fun while it's here, you know?

1 - okay? I mean, it's my view too, so cool.

3 - You're right, CSHT doesn't CURE dysphoria, it TREATS dysphoria. Which is why I didn't use the word 'cure'. Because as far as modern psychology knows, there is no cure. Which is why I'd absolutely fucking love to see your sources saying 'only desistance' can cure dysphoria. Please.

5 - And I'm truscum, who would have guessed.

9 - Bud, I know haven't actually read the DSM 5, but at least try to pretend like you have.

10 - Sorry, I just find this funny that, like, you're somehow okay with it because it falls in line with your own views. You don't have to respond to things you agree with, you know.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

3- Desistance is literally defined as lack of dysphoria i.e. it cures it https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

9- It's not necessary to read all of the DSM-V, only the parts on gender dysphoria. One of the sources it quoted had a 100% desistance rate. The lowest stat I've seen was still over 60%.

10- it's just inconsistent with QT ideology. I'm not going to assume you knew that.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

2- Can you define what a man and a woman are without using circular definitions or rely on sexist setereotypes?

3- Where is the proof that it works?

4- Record numbers of transgender prisoners transition from men to women

One in 50 prisoners identifies as transgender amid concerns inmates are attempting to secure prison perks

6- OP is not GC. And when GC denied neuroplasticity, anyway? Do you even know what that word means?

7 and 8 - Of course, trans identified people are the only people who matter for QT...

9a) Are you saying that desistence must not be researched?

9b) How can you design a vetting system when QT ban any research that they don't like (e.g. desistence, detransition, alternative treatments, autoginephillia, causes of gender dysphoria, why the sex ratio has switched in recent years)? Why do "gender affirming treatments" studies avoid using controls (and by controls I mean people with gender dysphoria not being treated with "gender affirming treatments"?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I mean I'm more gender abolitionist I guess, but I thought that's what most GC feminists are.

I don't think you need to ask for a definition without stereotypes. Never understood why every feminist seems to make this qualification to the question. Personally never witnessed someone ever even answer the question, let alone using stereotypes.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The point is to highlight how sexist their ideas of women and men are. A man with long hair wearing a dress and lipstick and who likes soap operas and hates sports? According to QT, he must really be a "woman"! A woman with short hair wearing trousers, who is good at math and likes action movies? Again to them, she must be really a "man"! I guess they realize this and that is why they usually avoid answering the question.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

2 - 'Adult human male or transgender female' 'Adult human female or transgender male' EZ PZ

3 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16758113/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-009-9551-1 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22736225/ literally 2 seconds in google.

4 - ? Neither of these links are about trangender sex offenders, they're about male prisoners trying to abuse a broken system.

6 - And I'm supposed to keep track of these things? My point still stands, brain sex is a stupid fucking concept. When did I say GC denies neuroplasticity?

7&8 - I mean, they matter more to me than you do. I'm certain the opposite is true for you. It's just the way life works.

9a - I'm saying the current research is awful.

9b -

and by controls I mean people with gender dysphoria not being treated with "gender affirming treatments

Because that's unethical and insane?

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

2a- So, what do adult human males and transgender females have in common to be grouped together? What do adult human females and transgender males have in common to be grouped together.

2b- How are you defining male that transgender males are not included in your definition of man? How are you defining female that transgender females are not included in your definition of woman?

3- They are paywalled. I may adress them later if I find a free version.

4- I need to label better my list of links... These two are about sex offenders.

Female prisoners at greater risk of sexual assault by transgender inmates, High Court hears

High Court rules transgender women CAN go into female prisons: Judges rule government's policy is lawful despite claims from inmate it raised risk of sex attacks

Those are official numbers from the British goverment. Real numbers may be slightly higher because males with a GRC are counted as female (but nobdy is trying to erase sex, right?). Notice that the judges of this case recognized the greater risk for female inmates, but they ruled women must suck it up because the feelings of males who identify as trans are more important. Tell me again how are trans identified people the most oprressed?

7 and 8- And yet women are supused to use "prefered pronouns" and "inclusive language" and acept males in women's spaces because...? You're the one who thinks we're a hate group for refusing to do all those things yet, when questioned about TRA policies' impact on women, you simplely say that is how life works? Seriously?

9a- Have you read any pro-QT paper?

9b- That is how clinical research works. To prove that a new drug is effective to treat a certain disease you need to do a randomized double blind trial where you give a group of subjects the drug you're testing and another group of subjects, a placebo. The participants don't know which one they are taking. Neither do the doctors. If there is already a treatment available, you can include the standard treatment to see if the new drug offer any advantage over it.

https://www.britannica.com/science/control-group

https://www.scribbr.com/methodology/control-group/

https://www.scribbr.com/methodology/double-blind-study/

Blinding for "gender affirment treatment" is not possible, but there is not excuse not to use a control group. But researchers never compare patients treated with "gender affirming treatment" with patients receiving not treatment or receive alternative treatments. They use the general population as control instead, except this doesn't tell us wheter patients are getting better from the treatment provided. Worse, for ideological reasons nowadays researchers will match subjects with controls by "gender identity" instead of sex and, thus, introducing more variables in the mix. Other common methodological problems of studies supporting "affirming" the identity of trans identified people are: they usually use a convenience sampling method, lack of long-term studies, and a high rate of participant's drop-out.

[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

'Adult human male or transgender female' 'Adult human female or transgender male' EZ PZ

An apple is a round fruit produced by a tree of the species Malus domestica, or a brand of computer. See, they're in the same group and if you don't put laptop pieces in your pie you're a bigot.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

2 is not a definition, it is two different examples you claim to be covered by each word. Are you saying you provided two definitions for woman or man? When a word has two meanings you number the different meanings. If you did that then we could say, "I'm using the first definition, not the second" to clarify when confusion arises between the two contradictory definitions you're providing for each word.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

That's... not how definitions work, but okay.

If I tell you I'm European, does that tell you I'm a European native or a person who lives in Europe?

[–]emptiedriver 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If I tell you I'm European, does that tell you I'm a European native or a person who lives in Europe?

If you're European, you have a European passport. That means you're a native. Someone living abroad is not European but a European resident. They still belong to the country that they have the passport from, unless they go through the process to change their citizenship.

It is possible to change citizenship, of course, while it is not possible to change sex. One is an artificial distinction created by human borders while the other is a physical reality.

'Adult human female or transgender male'

If any kind of female or a certain kind of male is a woman, does that mean that a transgender female is also a woman? Why would a transgender female not belong under "adult human female"? Is a transgender person not also an adult human person?

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Wow. There is a lot wrong to unpack here. First off, no, the word 'European' does not mean I have a European passport. It also doesn't mean I'm a native. It COULD mean I am a native. It could also mean I live there. That's it. Way to misunderstand the prompt, champ!

does that mean that a transgender female is also a woman?

transgender female

transgender

So, that would be a no. Because they are transgender. Exclusionary vocabulary.

Why would a transgender female not belong under "adult human female"?

I mean, they COULD, but now you're getting into the realm of having multiple words to describe you, and having to pick the best one for any situation. To take from my example from earlier that you didn't understand, I am European, and American (A native of Europe, a permanent resident of America.) The answer to 'what' I am, in this case, isn't a definitive answer, but a social answer, because in most cases, just saying 'both' isn't helpful.

[–]emptiedriver 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

First off, no, the word 'European' does not mean I have a European passport.

Well, I'm American but living in Europe and would never call myself European. As far as I understand the meaning of the word, it only refers to people who are citizens of European countries. I have a residence card, but I still have to go to the American consulate to take care of official papers.

Still, that's just semantics - you are saying that you can be European and American at the same time if you have an American passport and live in Europe. Are you then trying to say that you can be a man and a woman at the same time if you are male but presenting as female?

So, that would be a no. Because they are transgender. Exclusionary vocabulary.

How do we know if something is exclusionary when the definitions are so hazy... a transgender female is not a woman because "transgender" is exclusive, but a trans woman is a woman because "trans" is just an adjective, is that right?

I mean, they COULD, but now you're getting into the realm of having multiple words to describe you, and having to pick the best one for any situation. To take from my example from earlier that you didn't understand, I am European, and American (A native of Europe, a permanent resident of America.) The answer to 'what' I am, in this case, isn't a definitive answer, but a social answer, because in most cases, just saying 'both' isn't helpful.

So... you are both a man and a woman but it's "not helpful" to say both? That it isn't really exclusionary vocabulary in any other sense except you deciding to exclude one of the definitions.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Are you now conflating how conversations work with how definitions work? I assure you, I described how definitions work accurately. Open a dictionary. ... I'll wait. ... OK. You see words with multiple definitions, and you see them numbered. You may see words with one definition. They are not because there is no need. The word in that latter case would have only one real usage. Any other usage would be at best slang, but it would not be a real meaning or use of the word. You offered multiple definitions for a word as if they were together as one. When a word legitimately has multiple definitions, numbering makes it clear what is being said. You offered two contradictory ideas smushed together like they are one. By doing that, you are erasing the one, actual, meaning of woman by conflating it with something entirely different just like you're doing here with offering a conversational example as an example of how you wish definitions work.

Everything in "QT", and now many other places, is built on fuzzy language and insisting on a lack of clarity. You are playing by your rules, but those are unworkable and self-serving. But, as you are so open about throwing everyone else under the bus, how you do not care about others and only care about yourself because you assume everyone else is like that, because you are apparently living the dream, It makes sense that you would use fuzzy language to twist it into looking like it works the way you want it to work.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

3 - Because it works? Why are anti-depressants sometimes used to treat ANXIETY instead of DEPRESSION?

If cross-sex hormones work, then do they have sex dysphoria and not gender dysphoria?

4 - And you can prove this with stats that don't come from that one single GC think tank, right?

Not only is this not an answer, but it's a question in response to a question. Can you see how that's evasive?

5 - Sucks to be them I guess, if you don't pass, you're living as whatever people see you as. If you're in a super liberal place maybe that's just a TW, if you aren't then probably not.

So, why are these poor souls not living as they are living but instead living as other's see them? Are you saying their identity is assigned to them, and their own sense of identity is not valid?

6 - So does neuroplasticity only exist when you guys want it to exist?

Another non-answer. If anything the concept of neuroplasticity would make the "lady brain" idea completely invalid in determining a person's gender, if gender were a real thing that is.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (10 children)

1 - ...because that's just what it got called? This is a weird fucking hill to die on.

2 - If I ask you why all GC are axe murderers and you say that's stupid what are you smoking, isn't that evasive? (hint, it isn't, because it's a stupid question)

3 - Their sense of identity is their own, I can't change how the world around them views them. It's just the reality of the situation.

If anything the concept of neuroplasticity would make the "lady brain" idea completely invalid in determining a person's gender,

Yes. That's why i posted a non-answer for a non-question.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

2- I think OP meant all "transgender" sex offender are male, not all male "transgender" are sex offenders.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I mean, it's still a literally unprovable point, but that's a lot better than the alternative.

Side note, thanks for deleting Flippy's comment btw. It's not much but it does go a long way to show QT users you care a little bit about bad actors.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Taking it literally, the phrase all "transgeder" sex offenders are male is likely false. However, I don't think it's far from the truth. The vast majority of sex offenders are male and trans identified males retain male patterns of criminality.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885#s4

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

1 It's not a hill I'm dying on. Taken with your flippancy about female erasure, the way language is manipulated and made to be less accurate is a problem. Calling it "gender dysphoria" makes it seem like gender is real. It's not. Calling sex dysphoria places the focus on exactly what it is. It also makes it tougher to pretend sex is not real. Sex dysphoria it is. Thanks for clarifying it for me. I'll not use that other inaccurate phrase anymore.

2 Actually you're being evasive x2 now on this. You did not call it a stupid question. You actually assumed there was data that backed up the claim and you attacked the source you assumed it was from. Attacking the source is a logical fallacy, or for team QT/TRA par for the course.

3 Does the reality of that situation only apply to them, or to full range of people in the categories of cross-dressers and/or trans people?

Are you admitting the "lady brain" concept is nonsense and does not bolster the claims that gender and trans gender is a real thing?

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

1 - The term Gender identity disorder was publicly coined in 1980 and was in circulation before that. It's just the word that's used. You're reading way too much into it. I could literally care less what it's called, it's just that it IS called gender dysphoria.

2

attacking the source is a logical fallacy

Uh-huh, sure. Unbiased sources are important in a debate space. If you can't find any that's on you.

3 - Bud. Reality applies to everyone. That's how it works. I will always be trans. I pass, so that fact matters to literally only me, my husband, and medical professionals, and for someone who doesn't that group of people increases.

4 - Yes. It is nonsense. Dysphoria is a mental disorder. That's all it is. There's no magical 'look our brains are like their's so it all fits'.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

1 Care to guess when "women", and its use to mean adult human females, was publicly coined? I think you said language changes above. Keep up, it's sex dysphoria. It's the more accurate term.

2 You're the one assuming the source is biased, but calling it biased does not refute it. That's why attacking the source, also known as attacking the messenger, is a logical fallacy. You can pretend it's not, but you don't refute something by impugning person saying it.

3 Sounds like you're throwing those people, who aren't living the dream like you, under the bus.

4 We agree! Great! But if as you say in three, that you "will always be trans", but the lady brain stuff is nonsense, what objective criteria can anyone use to confirm some is trans and not a cross dresser, or a cross dresser having a laugh and claiming at some point in time to be trans? What makes it more than just something someone claims?

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I think you said language changes above

I didn't, but it's true. Sex dysphoria isn't used widely in the vernacular. Maybe it will be. It's more accurate, I don't know why you think I'd be against it, I'm just using the common medically cited term. I hope someday you'll change the minds of the individuals who name these things, maybe the DSM 6 can have your contribution in there.

You're the one assuming the source is biased

There's a difference between assumption and fact. The one source anyone ever cites isn't from a published study, it's from a survey run by a group of privately funded radfems. And just like every privately funded think tank group, you can not, under ANY circumstances, trust their data.

Sounds like you're throwing those people, who aren't living the dream like you, under the bus.

Not sure what you want me to do. There's no bus I'm throwing people under, it's just the way it is. Short of changing the minds of every single person on the planet, it won't change.

what objective criteria can anyone use to confirm some is trans

The medical condition. That's it. If someone wants to be a woman or a man because they like the identity of it then good for them, they aren't trans. Separation of the two groups would do wonders I think, but again, there's nothing I personally can do about that.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Still, impugning a source does not refute it. You may not trust their data, but the data stands unless you can show flaws in how it was collected or other related methodological flaws.

A medical condition is diagnosed independently of what ever a patient says or does not say. Wanting something is not a medical condition. Making an unverifiable claim is also not a medical condition. It might point to a psychological condition.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A medical condition is diagnosed independently of what ever a patient says or does not say

Glad we agree.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If so, then how is Sex Dysphoria, wrongly called gender dysphoria to make what is it less clear and obvious, diagnosed?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (22 children)

1. Is there such a thing as a man who wants to be a woman?

Yes but when someone begins identifying as a woman then they are a woman and vice versa.

2. What’s the difference between men & women?

https://relationship-institute.com/differences-between-men-and-women/

https://askthescientists.com/men-women-different/

3. If “sex & gender are not the same thing” then why do transGENDER people try to alleviate their GENDER dysphoria by taking cross-SEX hormones?

Because presenting as another sex alleviates dysphoria

4. Why is every transgender sex offender male?

Source?

5. If a member of the male sex is trying but failing to pass as the opposite sex, is he “living as a woman” or “living as a cross-dresser”?

Trans men are men and trans women are women.

6. If both gay men’s brains & same-sex attracted transsexuals’ brains have similarities with straight women’s brains, are gay men women, or are same-sex attracted transsexuals gay men?

Source?

7. What word can we use to describe adult members of the female sex, since your ideology insists that ‘woman’ should exclude some adult members of the female sex?

What do you mean? You can use "men" and "women" to describe men and women. If you mean birth sex, you can use "assigned female at birth". "natal female" or "biological female."

8. Isn’t erasing & appropriating the female sex by co-opting the words: ‘girl’, ‘woman’ & even ‘female’ sexist?

I consider trans females to be females so they aren't co-opting anything.

9. a) If the majority of early-onset dysphorics desist before adulthood & end up gay (according to every study on desistance), then isn’t encouraging dysphoric gay kids to transition into being “straight” quite literally gay conversion therapy?

I don't think young kids should be given hormones and surgeries. But pronouns and name changes aren't permanent. Also we do not encourage kids to transition into being straight. We allow them to transition to their desired gender. Trans men can be gay and trans women can be lesbian.

9. b) If desistance is natural & cures dysphoria, while transition isn’t & doesn’t, then why encourage transition & discourage desistance, instead of the other way around?

We don't discourage desistance. If someone wants to detransition or desist altogether, it's their choice. On the other hand, I can find posts where GCs pressure their friends or family members to desist when they don't want to.

https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/g5lkqo/how_many_years_does_it_usually_take_a_tif_to/

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/41108/how-can-i-dissuade-a-friend-from-becoming-tif

10. Is exclusive same-sex attraction “transphobic”?

No. You can't control who you're attracted to, and it's fine to refuse to date or sleep with anyone for any reason. But trans gay men have the right to be in gay male spaces like gay bars and trans lesbians have the right to be in lesbian spaces.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

1- by "identifying" you must mean role-playing.

2- include relevant excerpt pls

3- How do cross-SEX hormones alleviate GENDER dysphoria, if "sex & gender are not the same thing"?

4- https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22transgender+sex+offender%22&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQ5_LR363zAhVmhv0HHV6iC2EQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1172&bih=629&dpr=1

5- Simply referring to male transsexuals as "trans-womxyn" doesn't make them women, you've got to actually prove that they are a) not men & b) women. However, my actual question is still unanswered.

6- https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jun/16/neuroscience.psychology

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/brains-of-gay-people-resemble-those-of-straight-people-of-opposite-sex

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex/

You must have slept through 2008.

7- Again: what WORD for ADULT member of the female sex?

8- Making single-sex terms unisex is indeed co-opting them. Isn't this co-opting of single-sex terms sexism via erasure & appropriation?

9a- Exclusively same-sex attracted male transsexuals are referred to as "straight women" by your cult. You didn't know that?

9b- So why not encourage desistance, exclusively? Why should transition ever be an option?

10- Are you saying everyone has the right to be in gay & lesbian spaces?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (8 children)

  1. By "identifying" I mean identifying.

  2. Men typically have thicker skin—by about 25 percent, and also have higher densities of the protein collagen. Men also typically have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments and more muscle mass than women. The second longest finger for most women is next to their thumb —the index finger. But men are the opposite. They usually have ring fingers—those next to their pinkie finger—that are longer than their index fingers. There are differences in the way male and female brains are structured, how they process information, and interact with chemical signals. Some examples: men have more information-containing gray matter, but women have more white matter, which connects different parts of the brain. Also, women have bigger memory centers than men.

  3. It's just semantics.

  4. Most of the the sex offenders from the transgender sex offenders list are trans women, but some are trans men.

  5. There are studies that show men and women have different brain sizes.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm

Trans people have brain size in accordance to their gender identity.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

  1. Because trans people have dysphoria but cis gays do not.

  2. You can say woman, or cis woman if that's what you're referring to.

  3. Since trans men are men and trans women are women, it's not appropriation.

9a. We use whatever terms the person uses to describe their sexual orientation. If someone says they're straight, they're straight. If someone says they're gay, they're gay. If someone says they're bisexual, they're bisexual.

Also, we don't call them "male trsnssexuals" we call them transgender women if that's what you're referring to.

9b. If someone is genuinely trans, they should not be pressured to desist.

  1. Anyone who physically presents as the sex that space was intended for has the right to be in that space.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

1- Identity is formed by nature & nurture. Self-Identification as the opposite sex is like identifying as a goth, or a video game character, or a Dungeons & Dragons character. It's role-play. Wanting to be the opposite sex isn't an identity. Certainly the mere wish of a person to be the opposite sex isn't evidence that that person is somehow the opposite sex on elusive some level. There is no difference between a man who wishes to be a woman & a man who identifies as a woman, since in any other context you'd claim the former man to be an "egg".

2- Oh, so at least you recognise that 'man' & 'woman' are each single-sex terms.

3- So it's inaccurate to say "sex & gender are not the same thing", which is an understatement, as the aforementioned mantra is the exact opposite of the truth. Sex & gender are literally the same thing.

4- What accounts for this? The evidence seems to point out that self-ID is BS. Their own actions misgender them louder than anyone's words ever could. Maybe we should instead of calling them "trans-womxyn", we should be calling them 'transgender men'. Maybe language should reflect reality, instead of an ideology that has been proven wrong.

You skipped 5.

6- I'm the one who told you that, I added that gay people's brains also resembled the opposite sex's, therefore this evidence means that either transgender people are gay, or gay people are transgender.

7- "cis woman" doesn't include all adult members of the female sex, since it excludes the ones who identify as transgender.

8- It's sexist appropriation to make single-sex terms unisex.

9a- You just confirmed what I said. Transgender identification transitions same-sex attraction into "heterosexuality", making homophobic conversion necessary to "gender affirmation".

9b- There is no evidence of anyone ever being "genuinely trans". Anyone engaging in appropriation should be pressured out of it. Should we stop discriminating against minstrels since they are obviously genuinely trans?

10- According to your standards? Does this ban drag queens & butch lesbians then? lol

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Sex & gender are literally the same thing.

Many of us on the GC side, particularly those of us who are second-wave feminists, or had our ideas shaped by second-wave feminism, disagree. We see sex as biology and gender as the cultural overlay consisting mostly of stereotypes attributed to and associated with each of the two sexes. In our view, sex = male/female; gender = masculinity/femininity.

In the US where I'm from, everyone used to use the word sex when we meant sex. We used terms like sex roles, sex stereotypes, sexist expectations, sex-coded dress, and sexism when speaking of what today is known as gender.

Gender as an anodyne replacement for the word sex only started to come into widespread use in the US over the course of the 1990s. I worked as journalist and editor in the 1970s and 80s (and after), and it was customary back then when writing for general audiences to speak of people's sex, not their gender - and to use straightforward terms like sex discrimination, sex crimes, sex prejudice, sex roles, the sex pay gap and sexism.

In the late 60s and early 70s, sexologist Robert Stoller started using gender to mean the inner feeling/sense that some people have and the outward presentation/affectation/performance that signal sex which some people are hung up on, but he did so solely in reference to the transsexuals he studied. John Money was the one who invented the idea that "gender identity" is an inner sense that everyone has, but his view was not widely accepted initially. None of the English language style guides from the 1950s through the 1980s, and from previous eras, that journalists and professional wordsmiths relied mentioned "gender" except in terms of grammar in certain languages like French - where all nouns are masculine, feminine or neuter.

The USA's paper of record, the NY Times, only started substituting "gender" for "sex" in late 1990 - and the switch was vehemently protested at the time.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

There has always been overlap. Unisex can refer to androgynous fashion. Someone's facial features or figure can be described as 'feminine', even though what is meant is "biologically female-looking". And would you say a girl receives feminine socialisation? Even a masculine girl? Or would you say female socialisation? Gender has had two meanings for a long time now. Pronouns are masculine or feminine, but they are used to describe even male & female animals respectively.

You can't say "sex-identity" without people thinking you're talking about a person's sex-life, which demonstrates a further problem: what would happen to all the times you want to talk about sexual topics? Sexual is the adjective, but the noun is sex.

Then there is the fact that practically no child will ever hear the word sex or be allowed to use it of they do, but they will more than likely hear 'gender'. Sex is taboo in our culture, biological sex is taboo to the trans-cult, so any feminist who agrees to only refer to the male & female sexes collectively as 'sex', is complicit in making a person's male or female status obscene.

I don't know what's stopping feminist theorists from just using the terms female vs. femininity, rather than "sex & gender". It eliminates most language issues & makes the theory more accessible to regular people.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Pronouns are masculine or feminine, but they are used to describe even male & female animals respectively.

But in grammar, gender isn't just about pronouns. It's about nouns - the words for all living things and inanimate objects. And ascribing nouns a gender in the grammatical sense was because of their association with sex. Ships, for example, were seen as female, not as feminine.

The pronouns she and he are called feminine or masculine in the grammatical sense, but they are used to describe animals that are female and male respectively. I've never heard anyone describe animals as feminine or masculine. Though nowadays I imagine some genderists probably do this.

You can't say "sex-identity" without people thinking you're talking about a person's sex-life

No need to say "sex identity" when just "sex" itself will do. Such as in the questions that get asked of pregnant women all the time: Do you care what sex the baby is? Do you know its sex? Do you want to know the baby's sex before it's born?

what would happen to all the times you want to talk about sexual topics? Sexual is the adjective, but the noun is sex.

This is just silly. Lots of words have multiple meanings. Humans are easily able to distinguish which of the different meanings applies in any given sentence/statement by the context.

For example, when people discuss whether COVID-19 came from a bat or a lab, everyone knows that bat there means an animal, not the device used to hit a ball in cricket or baseball, and that lab means a facility where science is done, not a kind of dog. When someone says, "that's a novel idea or theory" no one thinks it means the idea or theory comes from or is related to fictional works of literature.

Speakers of English have no trouble instantly getting the different meanings of sex in the titles of such well-known books as The Second Sex, The Joy of Sex, The Dialectic of Sex and Sex and The City. Nobody has a problem understanding the difference between the word "sexual" in the title of the 1970 Kate Millet book Sexual Politics and the 1982 Marvin Gaye song Sexual Healing.

When a physician or sonographer asks a pregnant woman, "Do you want to know the baby's sex?" it's clearly understood by all that they're not asking the mum-to-be if she wants to have sex, nor are they referring to her baby having sex. Similarly, it's clear as day to all in that situation that the word "baby" in that specific context refers to the fetus the woman is gestating, not to herself as when her lover or a man might say, "hey baby" to her.

My passport, birth certificate and other documents, and those of my kids, say "Sex" before the M or F or Male or Female. No need to say "Sex Identity." Throughout history billions of people have filled out tons of forms in the course of our lives that had lines or boxes saying simply "Sex" not "Sex Identity" - and yet somehow we knew to fill in, check off or circle Female or Male, or F or M. Only 12 year-olds look at a form that says "Sex" and respond by filling in, "Yes" or "You Bet, just say when and where."

Since you brought up the term "sex identity": I believe the phenomenon of having a chosen "identity" that bears no relation to reality is a bunch of bollox, but if people are going to "identify as" the reproductive class that they are not, or pretend that they can identify out of being a member of a sex class, then I think the term "sex identity" would be better. Because that's what people are doing. The mantras TWAW and TMAM mean that people are identifying as the opposite sex and insisting the rest of the world play along.

I don't know what's stopping feminist theorists from just using the terms female vs. femininity, rather than "sex & gender". It eliminates most language issues & makes the theory more accessible to regular people.

Feminists of the first and second-wave type have always spoken in terms of sex vs sex stereotypes. That's worked fine and is very clear. I don't see any utility or benefit to your idea, which to my mind is suggesting that feminists should limit the scope of what we discuss to only one side of the fence, as it were. Female is not a substitute for sex; female is one of the two sexes, so half the convo. Similarly, femininity is not a substitute for sex stereotype; it just refers to one kind or section of sex stereotypes.

Second-wave feminists like me are not the ones who've created "language issues" by inventing unclear jargon; refusing to clearly define our terms; employing obscurant, ill-defined lingo and expressing our ideas in dense, impenetrable prose that's not "accessible to regular people." The genderists and queer theory crowd are the ones who have done that. It's their stock-in-trade, in fact. Incomprehensibility and gibberish are Judith Butler's hallmarks.

Genderists are the ones who've worked hard to sow confusion, and to make it appear that the word woman is indefinable, that women are "formless, limitless voids" and being a woman is an option for any man who claims to "identify as" or "feel like" a woman. Feminists of the second-wave ilk, or from that tradition, say that's malarkey. We say a woman is an adult human female.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm aware that words can have more than one meaning. One such word is gender.

Mainstream (99% of the population): gender = bio sex (99% of the time), sex = sexual intercourse (99% of the time) – basically, there are multiple meanings, but there is also a hierarchy of these meanings.

The trans cult has a better PR campaign than feminism does. It makes more sense to join forces with the mainstream, bc regular people don't get direct exposure to gender critical feminism, they've got to go through the mainstream filter first, & the trans ideology filter second, at which point you've lost most of them bc it's got too many layers of complexity to it.

You play into the trans cult's hands by saying "sex" in place of "gender", by helping them make biology obscene.

You really think masculinity is half the conversion within 2nd wave feminist discourse? Not even close. Masculinity is a pointless word anyway, it's like having a single word that describes every visible colour of the colour-spectrum put together, except pink. Men don't really have sex stereotypes holding them back, hence male-privilege: spared sex-based injustice. So if masculinity is just lack of femininity, then 'femininity' should suffice.

In English, the way in which the language is gendered (masculine & feminine pronouns & names) are directly describing biological sex.

I don't accept that it was 2nd wave feminists who made the distinction between gender & sex, or that Judith Butler popularised the replacement of sex with gender, or that John Money was the one who started using gender to replace sex. Do you know of a 2nd wave feminist work that defines gender as not sex, but sex stereotypes?

Stoller is the only one I've seen who calls the distinction between biology & social determinism sex & gender, respectively, but he seems to imply that this distinction is already in use (either way, some non-feminist seems to be the originator). Butler alludes to it, but she doesn't define gender as socially determined, instead she opts for a definition that has no substance. She thinks being a woman & being feminine are synonymous, but that bc the definition of femininity isn't always the same everywhere, she concludes that it doesn't exist, leading her to believe that 'woman' doesn't exist, it's just a self-determined performance, like an idea in the public domain. Neither GC feminists nor the trans cult seem to agree with either of these definitions though, so why does everyone jump to the defence of the distinction between sex & gender?

You may say you believe that gender is not male & female, but masculinity & femininity, but how did masculinity & femininity come to be known as "gender"? Was there perhaps already a close association between the word gender & the sexes? How did that happen? Apparently the OED defined gender as sex in the 19th century. So you claimed it's a modern invention to call sex gender, when in fact gender has always meant sex. So if we're going to go back to "the original" way of using these terms then gender would still end up as the correct term for the sexes.

Any use of gender to mean sex stereotypes, exclusively, is either pretty obscure, or pretty recent. I don't even really see how you being American, & a second-wave feminist, from the latter half of the 20th century, justifies the use of the word gender to mean sex stereotypes & not sex, bc I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that American second wave feminists from the latter half of the 20th century used gender to mean sex stereotypes exclusively & not sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Just as you seem unable to grasp the difference between gender and sex, you don't seem to understand that there's a difference between the significance of terms & ideas put forward or referenced by specialists in rarefied academic fields and the journals/books/texts they wrote in the past that were little-read at the time and the significance of the language & ideas that at the very same era in history were in wide circulation amongst the general public and thus were used in the popular press and in everyday, ordinary parlance.

The niche language used in the 1960s and 70s by specialists in narrow fields like sexology, and the sexology of transsexualisn specifically, and by grammarians prior to that, did not reflect the zeitgeist of the time. Just as even today, the gibberish-filled, obscurant writings and pretentious, performative, material-reality-denying ideas of Judith Butler do not represent the way most people who live in the real world speak, communicate and think even though aspects of Butler's jargon and half-baked theories float through and have wormed their way into the collective consciousness and wider culture like dust motes or virus particles.

If you want an idea about everyday speech, go to a library and look up the style guides used by English-language journalists and editors in the 60s, 70s and 80s. All the major news outlets had them - AP, NY Times, Newsweek, TIME, the networks, the BBC. You won't find any one recommending that "gender" be used instead of "sex."

Also, to get an idea of how people actually spoke back then, listen to/watch press interviews and radio & TV reports from the era.

I don't accept that it was 2nd wave feminists who made the distinction between gender & sex, or that Judith Butler popularised the replacement of sex with gender, or that John Money was the one who started using gender to replace sex. Do you know of a 2nd wave feminist work that defines gender as not sex, but sex stereotypes?

I think you have reading comprehension issues. I said gender was not a term widely used by second-wave feminists. I said most of us never used the word at all. We made a distinction between sex and the sex stereotypes, sex roles and sexist expectations that culture/society impose upon the two sexes - or what is now known as "gender" because that's the terminology that has come into use in the past 30 years. But second-wave feminists discussed these issues without resorting to the word "gender."

Also, I don't care that you "don't accept" what I am saying about the 60s, 70s and 80s and second-wave feminism. You weren't there. I was.

What I find remarkable is that you seem to think you are an/the authority on issues you don't seem very well informed about - and that you apparently believe your views have more validity than mine or anyone else who sees things differently to you just because your views belong to/come from you. I wonder why that is?

You play into the trans cult's hands by saying "sex" in place of "gender", by helping them make biology obscene.

What? That hangup/neurosis is theirs and yours, not mine. I've never depicted biology as obscene. That's on you & the POV you're defending.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If the word "gender" serves no purpose in describing sex stereotypes, since you say feminists never even used the word (since the term 'sex stereotypes' made it redundant), then why should it matter that I use the word 'gender' to refer to sex, in order to a) better differentiate biological sex from sexual intercourse, b) speak the same language as everyone else, whether colloquial or academic?

There is a chapter in the Female Eunuch called 'Gender', & it's not on "sex stereotypes", but like the OED, Germaine Greer isn't American, so it doesn't count, I guess?

Anyway, I did a Google Scholar search, customising the range from 1919-1985, confining the search to: "gender" -transsexual -identity -masculinity -linguistics resulting in about 76,800 results, as far as I could tell, gender was not referring to grammar or sex stereotypes in the majority of cases, but biological sex instead.

I asked you whether there are any American 2nd wave feminists who make the distinction between gender & sex, defining the former as "sex stereotypes". You didn't answer the question. However, I looked up Kate Millet's Sexual Politics, bc I remembered she had a useful glossary at the end of the book. She quotes Robert Stoller directly, using his distinction between gender (masculinity & femininity) & sex (male & female). So you could have used that example, except that, she says she agrees with Stoller & Money on gender identity being the result of gendered conditioning, which might have made the example too inconvenient for you to mention, presuming you still reject the aforementioned notion. So Stoller really seems to be the originator of the distinction you're referring to. It turns out Dworkin quotes Money on gender identity too.

What? That hangup/neurosis is theirs and yours, not mine. I've never depicted biology as obscene. That's on you & the POV you're defending.

Tsk, tsk, reading comprehension issues. Sex (the word, the connotation, the definition used in the majority of cases to mean intercourse) is obscene to the mainstream, biological sex (male & female) is taboo to the trans cult. Saying "sex" in place of "gender" helps the trans cult make biological sex obscene to the general public. I'm saying this for the third time in a row now.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

There are studies that show men and women have different brain sizes

You follow this by linking to an article whose title is:

Massive study reveals few differences between men's and women's brains - Neuroscientists conduct meta-synthesis of three decades of research

And which starts out with this:

How different are men and women's brains? The question has been explored for decades, but a new study led by Rosalind Franklin University neuroscientist Lise Eliot is the first to coalesce this wide-ranging research into a single mega-synthesis. And the answer is: hardly at all.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm

The article in the second link doesn't give enough detail to be able to make heads or tails of it. For example, it doesn't say how big the study it's describing was, meaning how many persons' brain scans were compared. Moreover, all the adolescents who were identified as trans were on GnRH agonists (development blockers). Finally, the results of the study hadn't been published & subjected to peer review at the time - the article was just about a a presentation given at a conference. It's not clear if the paper has been published & peer reviewed yet. I have done a search but can't find it. If you have a link, please provide it.

Here's the link to the description of the study presentation from the conference: https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/1506/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

Someone on Mumsnet says the abstract says.

"In conclusion, we found that boys with GD overall showed neither a typically male – nor female pattern of white matter microstructure, whereas girls with GD predominantly had sex-typical white matter diffusion characteristics with only slight masculinization in fiber organization. Our findings provide new preliminary evidence for the hypothesis that natal boys with GD may have undergone atypical neuronal sexual differentiation and possess certain neurobiological characteristics of their experienced gender."

But the poster didn't give a link. Someone else noted on Mumsnet:

This study found no difference in brains of pre-teens who identified as trans compared to those who did not. But did find there was a measurable difference in the brains of adolescents who were taking the drug triptorelin and those who were not. The abstract ascribes this to the fact those taking triptorelin identified as trans not because they were taking triptorelin - a drug known to impact the brain. Indeed, it is strangely silent on the fact the ‘trans’ participants were taking anything at all...

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3534028-brain-scans-show-differences-in-trans-youth

There's more in the Mumsnet threat. I'm saying they're correct. I have no idea. I just don't think things are as B&W as you think.

Also, many people on your side, including influential experts at WPATH, pooh-poohed the study. Here's just one example:

https://thinkprogress.org/transgender-brain-scan-study-68f9ba4b1c43/

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

1- Are you going to ever define the words male, female, man and woman? Also begins identifying? I though QT said "transwomen" have always been women and likewise for "transmen".

2- So, according to the first link I'm more man than women... Weren't you against sex stereotypes? Are you aware the second link is about biological sex and not "gender identity"?

3- How? Why not other mental health issue is treated in the same way? Why aren't doctors given anorexic people liposuctions?

5- What do "transwomen" and women have in common? What do "transmen" and men have in common?

7- Nobody is assigned a sex at birth. Sex is determined at conception and observed at birth or earlier. Why do GC gets acussed of reducing people to their genitals by insisting on a biological definition of woman and man, but terms like "bodies with vagina" or "menstruators" are considered "inclusive"?

8- Earlier in your post you said that presenting as the other sex alleviates dysphoria, and here you're saying "transwomen" are female. How is that possible. If they are "female", how can they present as the other sex.

9a- Social "transition" encourages further steps, though.

9b- QT is always "transing" the dead and questioning if people who break sex stereotypes aren't really "trans".

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

  1. Male and female people are people who have a sense of being male or female. With gender dysphoria, your mind tells you that you were ment to be a different sex. Gender euphoria is the opposite. You are happy with your sex and possibly recoil at being another sex. That is your gender identity.

  2. Yes I am aware that the 2nd link is about biology and I just skimmed through the links. Thanks for pointing that out.

  3. As of this time, transition is the only cure for dysphoria.

  4. The phrase "trans women and women" is a misnomer because trans women are women and trans men are men. I'm assuming you mean trans women and cis women. They're both women. Trans men and cis men are both men. Trans women who pass are treated like women by society and vice versa. Trans women who pass look like cis women and trans men who pass look like cis men. Trans men on hormones have beards and facial hair, and skin typical of men.

  5. People are assigned male, female or intersex. We use phrases like "people with vaginas" because it's not only women who have vaginas.

  6. I really meant to say presenting as the sex you identify with alleviates dysphoria.

9a. If the kid later decides to get hormones as an adult, they are responsible for their decision. No one is forcing them to take hormones, change their names and tell people their pronouns are so-and-so.

9b. I personally don't trans dead people unless they have indicated they are trans themselves. Brandon Teena identified as a male in his senior year of HS, took hormones, changed his name and even told people he was intersex when asked by his girlfriend why he was housed in the female section of the prison. If he identified as a woman he would have simply stated he is a woman, or maybe this wouldn't be a question at all as he wouldn't have been on hormones. His mother was not supportive of his transition and refused to accept his male identity, continuing to refer to Teena as her "daughter." I do believe trans people have existed as long as humans have, but unless the person personally identified as a gender different from the one assigned at birth, I don't trans them.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

As of this time, transition is the only cure for dysphoria.

That's a lie. Transition does NOT cure dysphoria. Not transitioning & accepting yourself for what you are is the only cure, it's called desistance & is defined by the lack of dysphoria.

People are assigned male, female or intersex

People are identified as male or female (is intersex a gender identity to you?) Some people assign themselves as the opposite sex in later life.

I do believe trans people have existed as long as humans have

This is a faith based belief. There have always been people (usually temporarily) who wished to be the opposite sex, but the current version of "transgender" is supposed to mean this mere wish to be the opposite sex is evidence that they are the opposite sex on some level – such people have never existed.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's a lie. Transition does NOT cure dysphoria. Not transitioning & accepting yourself for what you are is the only cure, it's called desistance & is defined by the lack of dysphoria.

It's not a lie. Very few people are disasters, and those are people who aren't trans and stop identifying with the community. Most people report physical transition helps and people can be trans for many years. Amelio Robles Ávila and Alan Hart were trans for life.

People are identified as male or female (is intersex a gender identity to you?) Some people assign themselves as the opposite sex in later life.

Most intersex people are either male or female. Very few intersex people are neither male or female, and they personally identify that way. Pidgeon Pagonis is a known intersex activist who identifies as non-binary and their birth sex is unknown.

This is a faith based belief. There have always been people (usually temporarily) who wished to be the opposite sex, but the current version of "transgender" is supposed to mean this mere wish to be the opposite sex is evidence that they are the opposite sex on some level – such people have never existed.

I know you don't believe trans people existed throughout history. You also don't believe gay and lesbian people existed throughout history.

https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/7ze2/qt_if_all_these_third_genders_around_the_world/

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course it's a lie, the fact that you back-pedalled from "cure" to "help" is your own admission to having lied.

Point is "assigned intersex" makes no sense, since "sex assignment" as either male or female is what happens to infants with DSDs. If a child's DSD is recognised & not "corrected" in any way or categorised incorrectly, then it's not "assigned", in fact it's the exact opposite. Anyway, stop bringing up DSDs bc they are never relevant. Anyway, conception determines someone as male or female, it's not assigned. Some people role-play the opposite sex & claim it makes them the opposite sex. This "transgender" identity has yet to be substantiated.

In that you post you linked I made the claim that it's homophobic erasure & appropriation for the trans cult to misgender all historical & non-Western gay male populations as women. No idea how you think a lack of the mythical transgender people negatively affects gay people.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pidgeon Pagonis is a known intersex activist who identifies as non-binary and their birth sex is unknown.

No one said people with DSDs aren't allowed to adopt a "gender identity" or to "identify as non-binary" or whatever. They have just as much right to ascribe to gender ideology and adopt identity badges as anyone else does.

What others said is that a DSD, aka an "intersex" condition, is not an "identity." It's a diagnosable medical condition that's a matter of material reality. A DSD is a fact of human biology that involves verifiable differences of physical development that affect reproductive and urinary anatomy and often aspects of physiology such as endocrine function too.

When Pagonis was born in 1986, Pagonis was found to be 46, XY and diagnosed as having AIS, a disorder/difference of male sex development. XY PAIS can result in external genitalia that varies considerably from the norm in a wide range of ways. It usually means undescended testes, undeveloped or absent penis, hypospadias, and scrotal skin that because the testes didn't descend doesn't look like a ball sac, but instead looks flattened and empty/floppy and perhaps like (fused) labia. But AIS also can result in what looks somewhat like a vulva, with a shallow indented skin pouch that is mistaken for a vaginal opening.

Pagonis says that early childhood medical records describe Pagonis as a "XY pseudohermaphrodite" (a term no longer used). In childhood, Pagonis's parents decided to raise the child as a girl and Pagonis was wrongly subjected to several surgeries as a young child to "feminize" the genitals.

But it turns out Pagonis was misdiagnosed in infancy and instead has a mutation of the NR5A1 gene. More than 50 varying mutations of this gene have been found, leading to a range of effects.

NR5A1 variants have been identified in people with 46,XY disorder of sex development, also known as partial gonadal dysgenesis. Affected individuals may have external genitalia that do not look clearly male-typical or clearly female-typical (ambiguous genitalia) or other abnormalities of the genitals and reproductive organs. Affected individuals may also have abnormalities of the adrenal glands, which may cause hormone deficiencies, resulting in a variety of health problems.

NR5A1 gene variants that cause 46,XY disorder of sex development impair the function of steroidogenic factor 1, though likely to a lesser extent than variants that cause Swyer syndrome.

NR5A1 gene variants that affect gonadal development and function have also been identified in people whose gonads do not produce reproductive cells (eggs or sperm). These conditions, which are called spermatogenic failure in men and primary ovarian insufficiency in women, result in an inability to conceive children (infertility).

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/gene/nr5a1/#conditions

It's not clear exactly exactly what was done to Pagonis in the childhood surgeries, which IMO should never have been done; and it appears that Pagonis got poor health care and advice, and was lied to outright about their medical condition and sex, until Pagonis was in college.

Pagonis has a memoir coming out in 2022; perhaps that will reveal more of the story in detail. But it's erroneous to say that "their birth sex is unknown." Also, when Pagonis was born Chicago in 1986, I don't believe that Illinois offered the option of being identified as "intersex" on its BCs. I believe the option of getting an "X" designation, or having a BC changed to X, only became available in Illinois in 2020.

BTW, my impression is that the Pagonis story undermines the claims of gender identity ideologues as much as the David Reimer case does. But at any rate, persons with DSDs, whether or not they undergo the trauma of early childhood "corrective" surgeries and are gaslighted their whole lives the way Pagonis was, are entirely separate to those who identify as trans. People with trans identities do not have DSDs, though it's a fairly common ploy for some of them to claim to have a DSD when they think it might benefit them. -like Jessica Yaniv (now Simpson).

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People are assigned male, female or intersex.

Please leave persons with DSDs/VSCs out of this. Your use of them is an exploitative cheap trick, one that others them and adds to the stigma of having a DSD, and to public misunderstanding of what DSDs are and how they manifest.

Having a DSD is not an identity. Persons with DSDs do not constitute a third sex, nor are they in between the two sexes or a combination of the two sexes. Persons with DSDs still are either male or female. Most DSD conditions are sex-specific, occurring only in persons who are either male or female.

Please also stop with "assigned" BS. Human sex is determined long before birth, and in most cases the sex of babies are known many months before they are born. When you spout this "assigned" nonsense you are simply showing that you know nothing about conception and the development of embryos and fetuses in utero; you've never attended or been involved in a human birth other than your own; and you're not familiar with the processes by which human births are registered with governments and birth certificates are issued/obtained.

We use phrases like "people with vaginas" because it's not only women who have vaginas.

Actually, your crowd uses such phrases, as well as "birthing bodies" and "bodies with vaginas," coz you're misogynists and authoritarians too.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

1- So, what does having a sense of being male of female even means? If you think "transwomen" are women and female, what do you mean by they people with gender dysphoria were meant to be a different sex?

2- If you're going to define women and men by "gender identity", then it doesn't make sense to list biological differences.

So, are you against sex stereotypes or not? Do you believe men are the logical and rational sex as your first link argued? If you believe in ladybrain, then can you explain to me why brain scans are not used to diagnose gender dysphoria?

3- How do you define "to cure"? Because it think it's self-evident the distress doesn't go away even after doing a full "medical transition" and can be triggered by anyone mentioning the sex of the trans identified person. At most, "medical transition" works as a placebo. A placebo, with many side effects and that still requires everyone else to accomodate their actions and words so not to remind trans identified people of their sex... Maybe that is why doctors aren't giving anorexic patients liposuctions...?

4- If "trans men" are treated as men by society, why the Media talks mostly about them when they get pregnant? If "transwomen" are treated as women by society, how is possible they are ones leading the "trans movement"?

5- Even if you want to insist that sex is "assigned" rather than observed, in modern times this "assigment" often takes places before the baby is born... Look, I doubt very much you haven't heard of stuff like ultrasounds, so you saying "sex assigned at birth" tells me you are likely repeating what you have been told in places like reddit or everyday feminism because you are a "good ally" and you haven't sit down to analize any of this makes any sense (because doing so would be "transphobic", I guees).

As for intersex, people with disorders of sex development (DSD) are not an intermediate sex. They are still either male or femlale. DSD is an umbrella term that includes many different medical conditions, most of which are sex-specific, affecting the development of the reproductive system and that can be diagnosed after doing a bunch of studies. Trans issues have little in common with DSDs and most trans identified people are unambiguosly 46, XY males or 46, XX females.

By the way, I think you should know the term "assigned sex at birth" comes originally from the practice of assigning a sex of rearing to babies with ambiguos sex characteristics. Speaking of which, maybe it would be a good idea to read on the story of David Reimer, who lost his penis after a failed circumcision and was "assigned female" by John Money.

6- It sitll doesn't make sense. You are using the word sex to talk about biological features you're born with or the way someone "identify as" depending on what is more convenient for you at the moment. Can you tell me what you think sex is?

9a- How do you know nobody is forcing them? Do you really think a 2-year-old kid has an appropriate understanding of sex and gender to be able to decide what their "true self" really is? Kids will pretend to be many things when they are playing. If a 4-year-old boy says he is Superman, should the parents "affirm" his new found identity"? If a 3-year-old girl says she is really a dog, should their parents "affirm" her new identity and take her to the veterinarian rather than the paediatrician?

Furthermore, currently children are getting hormones and surgeries way before they turn 18 years old.

Scottish doctors approved breast removal for 51 trans teenagers

Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults

Eligible youth were 13 to 25 years old, had been assigned female at birth, and had an identified gender as something other than female. Recruitment occurred during clinical visits and via telephone between June 2016 and December 2016. Surveys were collected from participants who had undergone chest surgery at the time of survey collection and an equal number of youth who had not undergone surgery.

2 participants in this survey had a bilacteral mastectomy at age 13, 5 had one at age 14, 9 at age 15, 9 at age 16, and 8 at age 17.

A summary of "gender affirmative treatmen" for adolescents can be found here.

And I think the practice of binding, which "trans boys" do as part of "social transition" to hide their breasts, deserves a mention, too.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So, what does having a sense of being male of female even means? If you think "transwomen" are women and female, what do you mean by they people with gender dysphoria were meant to be a different sex?

I meant people with gender dysphoria were meant to be a different sex than the one that was assigned to them biologically.

If you're going to define women and men by "gender identity", then it doesn't make sense to list biological differences.

These are differences typically seen in men and women. They don't apply to everyone, even among cis people.

So, are you against sex stereotypes or not? Do you believe men are the logical and rational sex as your first link argued? If you believe in ladybrain, then can you explain to me why brain scans are not used to diagnose gender dysphoria?

I am against sex stereotypes. Studies show men and women have different brain sizes, and I'm strictly referring to size and nothing else. Studies also show trans people have brain sizes corresponding to the sex they identify with.

How do you define "to cure"? Because it think it's self-evident the distress doesn't go away even after doing a full "medical transition" and can be triggered by anyone mentioning the sex of the trans identified person. At most, "medical transition" works as a placebo. A placebo, with many side effects and that still requires everyone else to accomodate their actions and words so not to remind trans identified people of their sex... Maybe that is why doctors aren't giving anorexic patients liposuctions...?

Many trans people say transition alleviates dysphoria. It's only a placebo to GCs. Also it's not hard to use people's preferred pronouns. My co-worker who hasn't physically transitioned goes by she/her pronouns and I use them 100%. If she was a stranger and I didn't know her pronouns I would use he until told otherwise. I always use the pronouns a person indicates they prefer.

If "trans men" are treated as men by society, why the Media talks mostly about them when they get pregnant? If "transwomen" are treated as women by society, how is possible they are ones leading the "trans movement"?

There is no need to put trans men in quotes.

I said trans men are treated as men by society, not the media. My own trans male friends told me once they started passing, they were no longer sexually harassed and were treated as competent by other men instead of being dismissed as if they don't know about the subject. Trans people largely do not control how the media portrays them. Trans men are absolutely leading the trans movement. Chase Strangio, Elliot Page, Gavin Grimm, Buck Angel. The problem is 1. GCs think trans men are largely incapable of activism 2. GCs usually get upset when they see trans male representation. For instance, language like "people with vaginas" is meant to include people who have vaginas but aren't female, and these are the people pushing for this language. Yet GCs blame trans women pushing for this language because AFAB people are "socialized female" and thus are incapable of demanding change. Not everyone who is AFAB is female but yes women are capable of demanding change and claiming they aren't is perpetuating the same sex stereotypes they claim to be against. Why do women have the right to vote? Because women demanded change. Why are women allowed to work the same jobs men are? Because women demanded change. Why is it now socially acceptable for women to wear pants? Because women demanded change. GCs are the ones who usually (not always) overlook trans male activists.

2nd, I said GCs usually don't like trans male visibility. If their favorite show suddenly included a trans male character, someone will make a post on Ovarit about how they will stop watching the show. They've already made posts like that. They were upset trans men are including in Ru Paul's drag race. When Elliot Page came out as trans Ovarit users made all kind of nasty comments like calling page narcissistic, or "shattered by her deeply misogynistic and lesbophobic move." or "This is literal conversion therapy." These are actual comments taken from this thread. Now if someone is a narcissist, they were always a narcissist. But GCs never called Page a narcissist until he came out. Looking through [Reddit archives](https://camas.github.io/reddit-search/#{%22subreddit%22:%22gendercritical%22,%22searchFor%22:1,%22resultSize%22:100,%22query%22:%22ellen%20page%22}) (r/GenderCritical was banned before Page came out) they never called him a narcissist, but there was a post where they were displeased when page talked about trans women of color when discussing his experience with sexual harassment, and they were made Page was on board with the trans stuff, but they never called him a narcissist. He was only a narcissist when he came out. On Ovarit they called Page lesbophobic, even though page was once a lesbian and I can't recall her making negative comments about lesbians. Being trans itself is not lesbophobic.

As for intersex, people with disorders of sex development (DSD) are not an intermediate sex. They are still either male or femlale.

Most intersex people are either male or female at birth, but very few aren't. Pidgeon Pagonis is an intersex activist who uses they/them pronouns. Their birth sex is unclear. Pagonis advocates for intersex human rights and against nonconsensual intersex medical interventions.

By the way, I think you should know the term "assigned sex at birth" comes originally from the practice of assigning a sex of rearing to babies with ambiguos sex characteristics.

I can't find any source indicating that's where the term originated.

Speaking of which, maybe it would be a good idea to read on the story of David Reimer, who lost his penis after a failed circumcision and was "assigned female" by John Money.

He was coercively reassigned female.

It sitll doesn't make sense. You are using the word sex to talk about biological features you're born with or the way someone "identify as" depending on what is more convenient for you at the moment. Can you tell me what you think sex is?

If I was talking about biological sex I would use the term "birth sex" or "assigned fe/male at birth".

How do you know nobody is forcing them? Do you really think a 2-year-old kid has an appropriate understanding of sex and gender to be able to decide what their "true self" really is? Kids will pretend to be many things when they are playing. If a 4-year-old boy says he is Superman, should the parents "affirm" his new found identity"? If a 3-year-old girl says she is really a dog, should their parents "affirm" her new identity and take her to the veterinarian rather than the paediatrician?

If you read my original comment it says "If the kid later decides to get hormones as an adult" so if someone decides they are trans at 12, and everyone respects the boy's identity and use his pronouns. Then this person turns 18 and decides to go on hormones and have top surgery, they will be the ones responsible for their decision.

Furthermore, currently children are getting hormones and surgeries way before they turn 18 years old.

Your own link "Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults" says most people who got top surgery as teens do not regret it. "Self-reported regret was near 0."

And I think the practice of binding, which "trans boys" do as part of "social transition" to hide their breasts, deserves a mention, too.

If chest binding is done properly there are no risks. And it's not permanent like a double mastectomy.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your own link "Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults" says most people who got top surgery as teens do not regret it. "Self-reported regret was near 0."

But that paper was about a 10-minute-long survey of girls & young women who had double mastectomies relatively soon after their surgeries; it wasn't an in-depth study that followed up patients long term. Of the 68 trans-identified double mastectomy patients surveyed, 59 had their breasts removed less than two years before they were surveyed. Moreover, 28% of the clinic patients who had double mastectomies and were intended to be included in the study did not participate - 24 because they "could not be contacted" and two because they "refused the survey." That's a lot of patients left out.

Nearly half (49%) of the 68 patients surveyed had been under 18 at the time they had their breasts removed, and nearly half (48%) of the ones under 18 were 15 or under when they had their double mastectomies. It's unrealistic to think that teenage girls and young women who have been through this sort of surgical trauma, and caught up in gender identity ideology for years beforehand, will be in touch with all their feelings about the surgery 12-24 months afterwards, and it's even more unrealistic to think traumatized girls & young women will honestly and forthrightly reveal all their feelings when someone from the clinic that caused to the trauma happens to call them on the phone for a brief survey. At the same time, there's good reason to believe that the clinic workers who called the surgery patients might not have been open to hearing and recording the responses of girls & women who tried to regrets or mixed feelings.

Also, it's telling that the paper doesn't provide a copy of the 10-minute-long survey showing exactly what it involved. We just know that it consisted of statements that the participants were asked whether they agreed or disagreed with and how often. About surgical regret, the paper simply says

All postsurgical participants (68 of 68; 100%) affirmed the statement, “It was a good decision to undergo chest reconstruction.” Sixty-seven of 68 postsurgical respondents reported no regret about undergoing the procedure. Only 1 participant (who was older than 18 years at the time of surgery) reported experiencing regret “sometimes.”

Seems to me such a format is intentionally aimed at not exploring any of the participants feelings except in the most cursory way without delving below the most surface level or allowing for the respondents to expound further.

If chest binding is done properly there are no risks. And it's not permanent like a double mastectomy.

A survey 1800 females who bind about the health effects found that negative health consequences were "nearly universal." And this was among a population where only 51.5% said they bound their breasts every day.

97.2% of participants reporting at least one negative outcome they attributed to binding. The most commonly reported outcomes were

  • back pain (53.8%),
  • overheating(53.5%),
  • chest pain (48.8%),
  • shortness of breath (46.6%),
  • itching (44.9%),
  • bad posture (40.3%), and
  • shoulder pain (38.9%) (Table 3).

Of the categories examined, skin/soft tissue and pain symptoms were most common with 76.3% of respondents reporting any skin/tissue concern and 74.0% reporting any pain-related concern.

Abstract: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13691058.2016.1191675?journalCode=tchs20

Full text: https://queerdoc.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Binding-Health-Project-Results.pdf

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

You forgot to add "because I think so" to the ends of a lot of your answers

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What’s the difference between men & women?

https://relationship-institute.com/differences-between-men-and-women/

That link is to an article that says men and women all have personality traits that fit a bunch of regressively sexist stereotypes that went out of fashion in the 1950s.

A woman’s sense of self is defined through their feelings and the quality of their relationships. They spend much time supporting, nurturing and helping each other. They experience fulfillment through sharing and relating.

Personal expression, in clothes and feelings, is very important [to women, not to men]. Communication is important. Talking, sharing and relating is how a woman feels good about herself.

Women are very concerned about issues relating to physical attractiveness; changes in this area can be as difficult for women as changes in a man’s financial status.

When men are preoccupied with work or money, women interpret it as rejection.

OTHER DIFFERENCES

Men are more logical, analytical, rational.

Men have a much more difficult time relating to their own feelings, and may feel very threatened by the expression of feelings in their presence.

But at the same time:

Men are more at ease with their own angry feelings than women are.

Women are in touch with a much wider range of feelings than men, and the intensity of those feelings is usually much greater for women than men.

Men tend to be more functional in approaching problem-solving; women are aesthetically-oriented in addition to being functional.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (82 children)

  1. Sure. A nondisphoric male who doesn’t transition or identify as a woman but wishes he was a woman is possible.

  2. Largely a combination of identity and social interaction.

  3. Because their gender dysphoria is because their gender doesn’t match their sex. There’s nothing contradictory.

  4. They aren’t.

  5. Are they trans or a cross dresser? Because if they aren’t trans there is your answer. Otherwise they are living as a non passing trans woman. A type of woman.

  6. No.

  7. “adult members of the female sex” or you know ci* women and afab trans people.

  8. The question presupposes coopting which I fight thing is what is happening.

  9. No. You aren’t seeking to change attraction or torturing people so it isn’t close to conversion therapy. And it’s awful to imply a connection.

    1 (b) desistance doesn’t cure dysphoria, it’s the result of dysphoria stopping or social pressure being weighted over dysphoria. Something being natural doesn’t make it superior. And because encouraging desistance kills trans people and encourages extreme suffering.

2(b) No. Though it certainly can be tied to transphobic beliefs. For instance if you are attracted to a trans man but consider him a woman the attraction is not transphobic but the belief he is a woman still is.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (81 children)

1- isn't gender incongruence defined as a strong desire to be the opposite sex?

2- what's the difference between men & women though?

3- but you said gender is just identity & social interaction, what has their sex got to do with it?

4- where are the female ones?

5- again, you said being a woman is a matter of "identity & social interaction", if you're not passing as a woman, but passing as a cross-dresser in your social interactions then how are you "living as a woman"?

6- No what?

7- Incoherent & inaccurate since "AFAB people" would include girls & I asked for a WORD for ADULT members of the female sex. The only reason I'm using "adult members of the female sex" for this question is bc if I say women, or female women lol, you'll pretend not to know what I'm talking about.

8- How is making every single-sex term unisex in order to affirm some men's cross-sex role-play not coopting?

9a- hello? transition offers gay kids the opportunity to identify as straight. Transition is literally a synonym of conversion.

9b- If desistance is "dysphoria stopping" & transition doesn't result in desistance then we need to find out what does & do that, instead of transition. I'm sure if former minstrels can survive without blackening up, then male dysphorics can manage without pinkening up.

10- Pretty sure trans-men want to be considered women, hence the 'trans' part. A transgender man is a man who identifies as the opposite sex. Why is it so offensive to be called a man or woman if you don't identify as such when there is no real difference between men & women? If the only difference is identity & social interaction then how can a "belief" that someone is one or the other be transphobic? Surely the reverse is true, if you consider a man a woman purely for embodying stereotypes then that would be a sexist belief, regardless of how committed the man is to his full-time cross-sex cosplay.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (80 children)

  1. No. That’s not how it’s defined. That’s one of several criteria that could meet the test.

  2. They’re people of different genders.

  3. No I didn’t. I said that was largely the difference between men and women. Sex and gender aren’t dependent. But dysphoria comes when sex and gender don’t match.

  4. Offhand the trans man who was charged with rape by deception for using a strap on on the girl he was dating. There’s at least one. Your premise then is false.

  5. You aren’t passing as a cross dresser because cross dressers and trans women aren’t the same thing. They are passing as a natal woman or passing as a trans women. Both types of women.

  6. No is the answer to the question you asked in 6. It’s a complete answer.

  7. It’s fully coherent. You are being obtuse. I said afab trans people and natal women. If you must add adult to afab trans to fill out then so be it. If you say women I don’t know what you mean. Does that include trans men? Trans women? Non-binary people? Women is an incomplete term for what you ask.

  8. Because that’s not what’s happening and not what coopting is.

9a. Comparing transition to literally torturing children into pretending they aren’t attracted to who they are attracted to is inaccurate and wildly insensitive.

9b desistance isn’t dysphoria stopping. It’s cessation of cross gender behavior. That’s what a trans person desisting is. It’s detransition not just no more dysphoria because otherwise transition counts as desistance and you don’t want that. Death is better than living as a man. You don’t agree? Well congrats you aren’t trans.

  1. Well you are wrong. Talk to any trans man ever. They don’t want to be considered women. Oh you mean trans women? Well there’s your problem you are using the wrong definitions of words. Men are disgusting monsters. The idea of being thought of as one of them is viscerally nauseating. I would be less insulted to be dehumanized to “it” than called “he”. Being considered a woman is nice. I feel it’s accurate personally and it is the way I generally seek to interact with people. But it’s not essential. However not being a man is essential. What they are coached to be, how they are meant to act, disgusting. Now the bodily dysphoria was mountains worse than the social for me, but still yet I can’t stomach being thought of as a man or treated like one.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Surely the mere presence of gender is a difference, considering most women do not have a gender identity to speak of.

It’s hardly a commonality between transwomen and women when women typically don’t experience the concept of gender as an internal identity that does not match material reality.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (78 children)

Comparing transition to literally torturing children into pretending they aren’t attracted to who they are attracted to is inaccurate and wildly insensitive.

It seems like the issue is that it doesn't appear torturous because those kids might be very happy to transition, so it looks positive that way the way that LGB affirmation looks, but LGB kids don't undergo the procedures and permanent alterations to their bodies and lives the way that children who undergo transition do, just to be themselves. Given the rate at which kids desist, and looking at how many people detransition, it does seem a bit cruel to assume that these kids won't desist and push them through transitioning.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (77 children)

Detransition Is vanishingly rare and noting irreversible is dibd before adolescence and I have never seen gc cite any statistics on adolescent desistance

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (29 children)

Suicide is vanishingly rare, so how can it be used to warrant encouraging transition, but detransition can't be used to warrant encouraging desistance?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

Suicide attempts absolutely aren’t vanishingly rare.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

They are nowhere near the detransition rates, which are between 2-8%. Suicide rates are well-under 1%.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

Suicide attempt rates for trans people who can’t access care have been measured at over 40 percent.

And so you have a source in 8 percent detransition? Because I’ve never seen anything over one percent.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Suicide attempt rates for trans people who can’t access care have been measured at over 40 percent.

Evidence please. And by evidence I mean reports from impartial health authorities and researchers based on substantiated medical records, police reports, ER visits, etc. Not self-reports made by supposedly trans people responding to anonymous online surveys done by campaign groups that put out propaganda like the Williams Institute, HRC, Trevor Project, Mermaids.

And not the anonymous National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) from 2014 that the much-contested 41% figure originally came from.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Self-reported, attempted suicide rates (which is 29% among male dysphorics) are not suicide rates. 100% of the sample in the study you are quoting was alive. Those rates go down with age, & are literally exactly the same percentage for LGB people, which makes sense since early-onset dysphorics are almost exclusively male homosexuals.

The suicide rate among male cross-sex role-players is 0.8% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/?fbclid=IwAR0KyMfRJG50rPKZOId8nhH27eXQJiBr-vX7_LkZ5-k2HtmQF1A9wnUFooA

8% detransition https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Teens are given cross-sex hormones and female teens are getting bilateral mastectomies, don't you think that qualify as irreversible? The effect of GnRH agonists (aka "puberty blockers) on children with gender dysphoria is still largely unknown and what we do know is not encouraging. Detransition is an area that needs more research, but trans activists will do as much as possible to ban any research on this topic, along anything else that question the official narrative. Is detransition is so rare, why are QT is so afraid that people research it?

A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder

Detransition-Related Needs and Support: A Cross-Sectional Online Survey

Psychotherapist blocked from studying ‘trans regret’ takes case to the European Court

Scottish doctors approved breast removal for 51 trans teenagers

Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults

Eligible youth were 13 to 25 years old, had been assigned female at birth, and had an identified gender as something other than female. Recruitment occurred during clinical visits and via telephone between June 2016 and December 2016. Surveys were collected from participants who had undergone chest surgery at the time of survey collection and an equal number of youth who had not undergone surgery.

2 participants in this survey had a bilacteral mastectomy at age 13, 5 had one at age 14, 9 at age 15, 9 at age 16, and 8 at age 17.

AAP 'Silencing Debate' on Gender Dysphoria, Says Doctor Group

Evidence for puberty blockers use very low, says NICE

All Six of Sweden's Pediatric Clinics Meet to Discuss a Cautious Stance Toward Pediatric Gender Transitions

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

Again. I’ve never seen statistics on teens. The studies you all always point to are on preadolescent children who have weaker identities than adolescents. Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest. There’s a difference between an 8 year old and a 16 year old when you are talking about identity and autonomy.

No one is objecting to an ethical demographic study on detransition. Or denying it’s a thing that happens. But it is a tiny percentage of people who transition. Anecdotally I helped organize a trans support group. I have met literally hundreds of trans people. I know of exactly 1 who detransitioned. Who it’s worth noting is still trans supportive and pro access to transition care.

Like I’m not even for transition before 16 but the evidence you are citing doesn’t actually support your assertions.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think an issue here is the imprecise wording (and sometimes indecipherable spelling) of your posts, which often make it hard to figure out exactly what you are saying and what info you're asking for. Such as this statement of yours a couple of posts up:

Detransition Is vanishingly rare and noting irreversible is dibd before adolescence and I have never seen gc cite any statistics on adolescent desistance

When you say you've "never seen GC cite any statistics on adolescent desistance," do you mean stats regarding persons who had childhood GD (onset well before puberty) and who desisted during adolescence? Or do you mean persons who developed GD during or just prior to adolescence, and who desisted at a later stage of adolescence?

I believe GC has provided many sources showing that the vast majority of kids with childhood GD desist during the course of adolescence.

But it might be that you and other posters here are using the word "adolescent" to mean different things. Could you say what you mean exactly so to eliminate further confusion?

Finally, is "dibd" a typo or an acronym for some new gender term? Genuine question- it's not clear to me.

You say that

Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest.

Again, please state what you mean by "mid to late teens." There are 7 different, long years between 13 and 19; it's best to be specific.

My impression is that you think adolescence = teens, or is roughly equivalent to the teenage years. When, in fact, adolescence usually starts well before the teen years. Puberty is only precocious if it starts before 8 in girls, and before 9 in boys. Most girls start developing breasts and begin menstruating well before they turn 13, often several years before. Similarly, most boys begin experiencing wet dreams and genital changes and growth, and engage in masturbation resulting in orgasm, well before they turn 13 too.

If my impression that you're conflating being an adolescent with being a teen is incorrect, I apologize ahead of time.

Another issue adding to the confusion here is that is that puberty/adolescence unfolds very differently in children depending on sex - and thus boys and girls of the exact same age are often at very different stages of adolescence. Not only do different processes occur in female and male bodies during puberty and the rest of adolescence , but these phases of development occur at a different pace in the two sexes, and where common events occur - such as the growth spurt that leads to adult height, adult shape and increased bone density - the sequence is different depending on children's sex. For example, girls go through our big skeletal growth spurt at the beginning-middle of puberty and usually achieve our adult height by 14, whereas boys do so towards the end of puberty or even during adolescence after puberty is over, achieving their adult height at or after 16. Though this varies in individuals. For example, I reached my adult height at 12, but my brother didn't reach his until 17.

But however you personally define what you mean when you speak of "the mid-late teens" and "adolescents," it remains the case that your claim that "Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest," is simply not true. Nowadays, and for a number of years now, kids with gender dysphoria are indeed being placed on "hormones" in their early teens, and some before their teens even start.

A paper published in 2019 by Johanna Olson-Kennedy MD et al reported on a study funded by USA's NIH that began in 2016 that attempted to assess the impact of early medical interventions on "transgender youth." It says:

Regarding age, the minimum age in the inclusion criteria for the gender-affirming hormone cohort was decreased from 13 years (as stated in the original grant proposal) to 8 years in order to ensure that potential participants who might be eligible for hormones based on their Tanner stage would not be excluded due to age alone. Additionally, considerations were made for youth who were found to have very low bone density in the screening, which occurs with youths initiating blockers. Only 7 youths under the age of 13 years at the time of enrollment were enrolled into the cross-sex hormone cohort.[ "only 7" - WTF?]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6647755/

Another study published in 2018 by Olson-Kennedy et al of 59 patients who presented for treatment at a youth gender clinic from 2011-13 and received "hormone therapy" states that the youths

ranged in age from 12 to 23 years at initiation of [exogenous estrogen or testosterone] therapy, with a mean age of 18 years. Thirteen (22%) youth started [cross-sex] hormones younger than age 16 years.

Transfeminine youth were started on hormone protocols that usually included a testosterone blocking agent and feminizing medications. Spironolactone (100–200 mg orally per day) or a GnRH analog was used for testosterone blocking and induction of feminizing features with 17 β estradiol, and in some cases, the addition of progesterone. At the time of this study, spironolactone and GnRH analogs were not covered by most insurance plans; therefore, seven (28%) of these youth did not have their endogenous testosterone blocked specifically in the first two years of treatment. One transfeminine young person was on GnRH analogs since early puberty. Eighteen participants used an escalating dose of oral estradiol ranging from 1 to 6 mg each day; four switched to injectable estradiol over the course of treatment, and one was off of hormones at the follow-up visit. Six participants initially started, and continued using injectable estradiol at doses ranging from 20 to 30 mg delivered intramuscularly every 14 days.

Transmasculine youth were all treated with testosterone cypionate via subcutaneous delivery at escalating doses ranging from 12.5 mg to 75 mg weekly. At follow-up, most youth were at a dose of 50–75 mg weekly. Two transmasculine youth were on simultaneous GnRH analogs that were started earlier in adolescence. Doses for both cohorts were adjusted based on clinical response and circulating levels of sex steroids.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7050572/

Jazz Jennings started both "puberty blockers" and exogenous estrogen when Jazz was 11. Since Jazz turns 21 in a few days, that was a decade ago.

Jackie Green of the UK, child of Mermaids' CEO Susie Green, started both "puberty blockers" and exogenous estrogen at 12. Jackie is now 30, so that was 18 years ago, in 2003.

Helen Webberley the UK physician who operates Gender GP, an unlicensed online clinic, has been prescribing cross-sex hormones to children as young as 12 for at least several years now. This first came out in the investigations in 2018 that followed the suicide of one of Webberley's teenage female patients for whom Webberley prescribed testosterone, and more info about other patients has come out in the formal proceedings against Webberley by medical licensing authorities that have been held over the past couple of months.

Trinity Neal, the first child in the US state of Delaware to undergo "childhood gender transition" paid for by Medicaid, started exogenous estrogen in 2016 when Trinity was 13 and at 16 became "one of the youngest people" to undergo surgery to remove Trinity's testicles and reconfigure Trinity's genitals in "gender affirming" fashion.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/transgender-teen-trinity-neal-pictured-with-her-mother-news-photo/1190172556

Speaking of surgery, an intervention that is not reversible, another study by Olson-Kennedy et al published in 2018 showed that girls in the US as young as 13 are being given double mastectomies for gender dysphoria. In the sample studied, 49% of those who had double mastectomy for GD and "chest dysphoria" were younger than 18 years at the time their breasts were removed.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2674039

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I’m referring to adolescence in the social sense as in the life stage between childhood and adulthood, not simply the onset of puberty.

I think Jazz was given estrogen too early though I would have supported blockers. But still yet. The studies on desistance rates gc likes to tout is on 8 year olds. It’s not sound to protect that onto someone who is during their teenage years expressing that they are trans. It’s an unsupported comparison.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for answering. But I still am not clear on what you mean. You think adolescence is simply a social stage? Not one when development of myriad kinds occurs - physical, sexual, social, psychological, cognitive?

Also, I wasn't talking about onset of puberty. I was talking about puberty as a multi-year developmental process and pointing out that puberty and adolescence are not the same, nor does adolescence mean the teen years. Whereas in my reading of your posts, you seem to use these terms loosely and interchangeably.

When puberty begins, adolescence begins - but adolescence continues after puberty is finished. Similarly, by the time a person becomes a teenager, puberty is usually well underway and sometimes mostly over - depending on the person's sex and individual developmental clock. My point was that in these convos about boys and girls growing up, the different stages of development and life phases - childhood, puberty, adolescence, teens, early adulthood, adulthood, etc - need to be spoken of very precisely. Whereas no offense, you seem to speak of these matters loosely and in ways that IMO are confusing and hard for others to follow.

The studies on desistance rates gc likes to tout is on 8 year olds.

Can you link to these studies that GC supposedly uses, or at least give the authors' names, so I can look them up? I have no idea what studies you mean - and I'm someone who's definitely GC who's been looking into this area for many years now.

It’s not sound to protect that onto someone who is during their teenage years expressing that they are trans. It’s an unsupported comparison.

So does this mean your focus really is on, and all along you have been speaking of, persons who develop(ed) GD solely in their teenage years - meaning they have adolescent-onset GD begun after puberty has started, not childhood GD? Coz that's how it comes across, and that's what I've been trying to get you to clarify.

I agree with you 100% that childhood GD is entirely different to adolescent-onset and adult-onset GD. But GC is not the group that's been trying to obscure the distinctions between those with childhood-onset GD and those with GD that develops in adolescence or adulthood. The people who are projecting are the adults, usually males, who say that because they and other adult males who are trans now wish they didn't undergo some of masculinization of appearance that occurs as a result of male puberty and adolescence, then kids with childhood GD should have their puberties blocked so they don't develop those characteristics themselves.

The QT and pro-trans adults are also the ones who have come up with the harmful myth of being "born in the wrong body," a narrative they not only project onto the stories of their own pasts and the pasts of other adults who now identify as trans, but which they foist upon - and tell to - little kids with childhood GD too.

The GC side are the ones who warn against "unsupported comparison(s)" in these convos. Such as the unsupported comparison between adolescent and adult males with AGP and teenage girls with ROGD. And the unsupported comparison between the discrimination and abuse that some males go through growing up and in adulthood because others see them as "sissies" and suspect them of being gay and the discrimination and abuse that females experience because of our sexed bodies and the misogyny and sexism we face. And the unsupported comparison between what happened in the childhoods and adolescence of adults who grew up and matured many years or even decades ago and what's gone on, or is going on, in the childhoods and adolescence of young people today or in recent years.

The child abuse and human rights violations done to youngsters like Jazz Jennings, Trinity Neal, Kai Shappley, Mack Beggs and all the young girls getting their breasts amputated in the name of "gender affirmation" nowadays haven't come about because of GC people projecting our issues onto kids, or us making unsupported comparisons. It's because adult genderists have done and are doing that.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

So, you'd rather hide your head in the sand and keep repeating the same lies about how no irreversible procedures are being given to minors? Do you think all the evidence to the contrary will vanish by just saying this doesn't happen? If you are going to tell me my assertions are baseless, then justify your claims.

I can't produce research that hasn't been done. It's only recently that teenagers whose gender dysporia began at adolescense have been going to gender clinics for "transition". The change in the sex ratio where female patients are outnumbering male ones, that trans activists are keen on not looking for an explanation, is also a new fenomenon. It's also new that children and teenagers who identify as "trans" are being cheering on their cross-sex identitiies not only by the medical and psychological establishment, but also the Media and schools. There is anecdotical evidence by detransitioners that suggest they don't often don't go back to their doctors. As I said, desistence and detransition is an area that needs more research, but transactivists are trying their best to not allow it.

It's unbeliable you had the nerve that no one is objecting to study detransition when I showed you the case of a psychotherapist who is going to court about this very issue. What exactly is unethical about what he was trying to research? How is this more unethical than chemically castrating children? Why are you all so scared of people researching this topic if you all are so secure on your own chosen "identities" as you all claim? And what about the AAP not wanting to allow the debate on the treatment of trans identified minors? Again, what are you all so afraid of?

And what about this paper I linked, very much pro-"transition" for minors and using ofuscating "inclusive language", which outright admitted that females who identify as "trans" have gotten their breast removed as young as 13 years old? What have you to say about it? Are you going to try to dismiss it as "transphobic" propaganda? And what about the girls in Scotland that were aprroved for the same surgery? Are you going to ignore it too?

What have you to say about Finland and Sweden reversing course when in comes to "transition" of minors? What have you to say about even one of the authors of the Dutch protocol admitting that this is being applied for a population that it was not designed for? What have you to say that in spite of GnRH agonists being sold as a "pause button", virtually all children progress to cross-sex hormones? Tavistock's own data support this, you know? Are you going to argue the doctors have gotten very good on detecting who is a "true trans" at the same time when it's became "transphobic" to question someone's identity in any way?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

I’m not hiding my head in the sand I’m just not acknowledging your obvious sleight of hand comparing stats on 8 year olds to try to justify denying care to teens twice that age. Puberty blockers are reversible so don’t pretend that Is some grand permanent treatment.

Trans people aren’t new. People being able to access care early enough to prevent the wrong puberty ruining their bodies is a good thing.

No one is objecting to fair demographic studies. But that’s not what is being done. If someone wanted to contact detransitioners without culling from anti trans sites (like that laughable rogd “study”) to ask about why they transitioned , why they detransitioned, and what services they need, literally no trans person would care. That researcher was blocked by the university not any kind of trans action. A business engaging in conservative oversight is hardly our responsibility.

That aap article is about one organization not a general research topic. No one cares about fair research. But we do object to blatant anti trans agenda groups funding bad studies.

That study you linked shows a trend toward effective reduction in dysphoria with top surgery and self reported regret was near zero. Hardly a ringing endorsement for your side.

And that article on the Scottish group was specifically 16 and 17 year olds. They are mature enough to have bodily autonomy and know who they are as far as I’m concerned. And again you still haven’t shown me data suggesting large desistance rates from 16 and 17 year olds who are dysphoric.

The Swedish group seems to be a pause until administrative guidance. The Finnish change I don’t really have any thoughts on. Surgery before 18 doesn’t seem particularly dire. Moving away from puberty blockers is going to hurt a lot of trans kids probably but it’s not the end of the world.

What have you to say that in spite of GnRH agonists being sold as a "pause button", virtually all children progress to cross-sex hormones? Tavistock's own data support this, you know?

Seems like they are working to help prevent the wrong puberty in those that need it who then get the right one? What’s your point here? If most who get paused eventually go on hormones that’s evidence it’s being applied to people who decide to transition. That’s a mark in favor.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

I said you're hiding your head in the sand because that is exactly all what you've been doing: trying to twist my points to suit your position and ignoring the unconvenient parts that you don't know how to misrepresent. Just like you keep not adressing the evidence that 13 years old girls have gotten their breasts amputated, which is something irreversible being done to teens, exactly what you claimed it didn't happen. And speaking of harmful practices trans identified girls are encouraged to do, I forgot to mention the horros of breast binding. But of course, you don't give a dam about what happen to young trans identified females, just like you don't give a dam about women being told to use de-humanizing "inclusive" terms to talk about themselves and female anatomy, or how women are being harmed because of males claiming to be "women" are invading (formerly) women-only spaces like bathrooms, refuges, sports, hospital wards, prissons, etcetera. Just like you don't give a dam about TRA policies distorting statistics and lying about women getting more violent. Just like you don't give a dam about dissenting women receiving death and rape threats, being smeared, getting fired, or getting physically assaulted for stating the obvious fact that men are not and will never be women regardless of how many hormones they take, or how many surgeries they undergone, or how many sexist stereotypes they try to live up to.

You call yourself a "woman", yet you have zero sympathy for actual women. We're nothing more than human shields for you. Let's be real, deep down you likely know that you will never been anything but what you hate the most. Why else, do you throw a tantrum every time people refuse to play along with the obvious lies about who you are? You need to be honest with yourself and learn to be comfortable on your own skin rather than live vicariously through trans identified children and teens.

Nobody goes through the wrong puberty as nobody is born in the wrong body. Who does enjoy puberty, anyway? Do you think that being unconfortable with your changing body is an exclusive experience of trans identified people? I wasn't exactly happy when my breasts started to develope or when I got my first periods or when I was told I have to shave because I was a girl. Was I a "trans boy" or "non-binary person" or whatever else? I mean, I don't wear dresses or make-up, so I must not be a woman, right? That is the obvious conclusion if I were to follow QT logic, right?

Listen, gonadotrophin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues, more commonly known as "puberty blockers" are NOT reversible. Anyone who knows something about pharmacology would recognize the phrase of them being "reversible" as the red flag that it is. No drug is reversible, that is why you need to weight the benefits and the risks of using them. Why do you think in literally any other area of medicine self-medication is frowned upon? TRA's only basis to say they are "reversible" is by extrapolating from their use in the treatment of central precocious puberty. However, central precocious puberty and gender dysphoria are very different conditions and GnRH agonists are used for different reasons in them. In the former, the aim to dealy the kid's puberty until the typical onset of puberty. Meanwhile, in the latter, children whose puberty started at typical ages are getting their sex hormones shut down to made "passing" easier.

But the human body is too complex to be able to stop the clock as if were nothing. Sex hormones are important for developing bones and brains. Even if their secretion is later resumed, we can't be sure on the impact of temporaly shutting them down. Moreover, we can't know the sociopsychological impact of teens, who are likely uncorfortable with their bodies, being kept in a child-like state while all their peers are growing up normally. Why wouldn't they jump on taking exogenous hormones, especially when everyone is cheering them on being, or being able to become, the opposite sex? Keira Bell's treatment started at 16 years old and undergone a bilateral mastectomy at 20 years old. Yet she later regreted all of this. How can you say children and teens are mature enough to consent to any of this? How can they consent when they are being groomed by adult activists that tell them their only options are "transition" or suicide? How can they consent when they are not told the actual risks and doctors employ anatomical unaccurate terms like "male chest reconstruction", "neovagina", "sex assigned at birth", "front hole" or "transition"? Especially when many doctors are keen on ignoring the skyrocketing increase on cases, the change on the sex ratios in favour of teen girls, the many co-morbities that many of the patients have, or the increasing numbers of de-transitioners? Not to mention the obvious question: why are trans identified people are offered hormones and surgeries to "transition", but no one thinks on giving anorexic patients a liposuction?

And you have the nerve to complaining that I or others can't provide you with the data you ask for when it's trans activists who are doing the very best not to allow any debate or research that may contradicts their dogmas? It's trans activists who don't want people researching detransition or recent changes in the demographis of young patients with gender dysphoria. It's transactivists who seek to punish anyone raising safeguarding concerns or just get a more a cautios position. All of this under excuse that it's anti-"trans" propaganda. What a joke! Anything it's "transphobic" for you all, starting with reality itself.

You all would rather support doctors who can't keep basic patient's data or disregard any safeguarding. You all would rather support people who try to ban alternative treatments for gender dysphoria through bad science. You all would rather keep denying the importance of sex even if get's your life in danger. You all would rather support an English proffessor who advocate for stealing and burning a book he doesn't like. You all would rather support the lawyers who advice you to keep your goals secret. You all would rather support the lawyers who don't want people to know how many trans identified males there are in the female state.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Reddit has a lot of problems, but this is a really interesting, well-compiled database of desistance, detransition and puberty-blocker effect studies: https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/wiki/studies

I've been going through it this evening as it's pretty new to me too, and one of the best studies where I could see the statistics is a follow-up study from 2008 of girls with GID: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2007-19851-005

This study provided information on the natural histories of 25 girls with gender identity disorder (GID). Standardized assessment data in childhood (mean age, 8.88 years; range, 3-12 years) and at follow-up (mean age, 23.24 years; range, 15-36 years) were used to evaluate gender identity and sexual orientation. At the assessment in childhood, 60% of the girls met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for GID, and 40% were subthreshold for the diagnosis. At follow-up, 3 participants (12%) were judged to have GID or gender dysphoria

I'm actually still going through it all, but I'll bring up better/more links. The synopsis of each study in that database is quite helpful and succinct, though.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That’s actually in line with my point. No one is getting treatment at 8 so whether they desist is pretty much irrelevant. The relevant statistics would be desistance from adolescence to adulthood. And I’ve never seen anyone produce data on that.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But the study that Fleurista linked to shows that all but 3 of the 25 girls - or 88% - diagnosed with childhood GID had desisted when seen at follow-up, at which point they ranged in age from 15-36 years old. So it very clearly shows, as other studies on boys do, that the vast majority of kids diagnosed with childhood GID in the past (what today would be called childhood GD) grew out of it as they went through adolescence and approached/entered adulthood - if, that is, they were allowed to just be, their opposite-sex gender identity was not affirmed but also not condemned or shamed, they weren't "socially transitioned," and their natural body and brain development was not impeded/interfered with by administration of the development-blocking drugs and exogenous cross-sex hormones in wide use for such kids today.

Again, there's confusion here because you seem to be lumping together childhood-onset GID/GD with adolescent-onset GID/GD. When the reality is that childhood-onset and adolescent-onset GID/GD are very different to one another even when they occur in the same sex, and when they occur in males and females adolescent-onset GID/GD are two completely, entirely, utterly different phenomena.

Moreover, a paper published in 2008 like the one Fleurista cited is unfortunately no longer relevant to what's going on now, or has been going on in recent years. At the time that study was completed, the subjects were 15-36, meaning they'd now range in age from 29 to 50. Born from 1971 to/through 1992, these girls/women are of entirely different generations and grew up in totally different worlds than today's "trans kids" and young adults. When they were growing up, it's true as you say that no one was getting medical interventions at 8 - or at 12, either. But since that study was done, there's been a sea change. Nowadays as in the past 5-10 years, kids are indeed being given blockers and CSH as young as 8, and girls are getting surgeries to remove their breasts as young as 13 (and now 12 in some cases).

The other thing is, at the time the girls in that study were assessed and diagnosed with GID, they had a mean age of 8.88 years, but an actual age range, 3-12 years. Which IMO means they should NOT have been lumped together as one group and all assumed to have childhood GID. Fact is, girls age 9-12 are usually entering or well into adolescence. It's common for girls begin to breast development at 9-10, and many have large breasts by 11-12. Same goes for periods, which many girls get at 10-11. For example, I got mine shortly after I turned 11 - which was completely normal. A girl of 3-8 who says she wants to be a boy will almost always be doing so for very, very different reasons than a girl of 9-12.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But the study that Fleurista linked to shows that all but 3 of the 25 girls - or 88% - diagnosed with childhood GID had desisted when seen at follow-up, at which point they ranged in age from 15-36 years old.

My point is that’s not the relevant statistic. Childhood desistance doesn’t demonstrate that adolescent dysphorics will desist in any number. And since that’s when anything not simply reversible is even on the table.

I would argue that social transition would at least potentially be useful regardless as an exploratory measure for the dysphoric person. If living as you wish doesn’t help you know that isn’t your solution.

I’m not referring to onset time. I’m saying they haven’t produced anything on desistance rates for adolescents who are dysphoric whether it’s new or old at that time. And that’s the relevant data that is needed for this discussion.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're continuing to conflate different terms and groups, posting in what appears to be an intentionally confusing way. My hunch is that this is to cover up the fact that you really don't have much to contribute to the convo except complaints about the info you say others haven't provided - and gripes about research you whinge that others haven't done, in part because activists and ideologues on your side would scream bloody murder if they tried.

The study Fleurista linked to is about females who had been assessed between ages 3-12 and diagnosed at that time with what clinicians called childhood GID/GD, and who desisted later on during adolescence. You say this is "not the relevant statistic" - but that's because the only group you seem to think matters in the debate over youth with gender issues are males who develop GD during adolescence (and adulthood too?). Then you say

Childhood desistance doesn’t demonstrate that adolescent dysphorics will desist in any number.

When, LOL, the study at issue was not about "childhood desistance." It was about desistance in adolescence, FFS. Then you say

And since that’s [adolescence] when anything not simply reversible is even on the table.

WTF? How can you make such a claim after you've just been given ample evidence by me and others that children of both sexes are being put on medications (development blockers and CSH) that have irreversible effects as young as 8, and that girls are getting their breasts amputated as young as 13. Once a girl has her breasts cut off, there's no way to get them back. That's the definition of irreversible.

Also, when children are put on development blockers at 11-12 like Jazz, Jackie and Trinity, then they go on to take CSH, their gonads never mature, so these children end up sterile. Irreversibly sterile.

Since you seem only to care about males, then it should be of interest to you that the use of development blockers starting at 11-12 in males like Jackie, Jazz and Trinity, followed by CSH, left them with the penises and testicles of little boys - and with undeveloped sexual function and capacity too. This means impaired or no ability to orgasm (and in the case of Jazz, no sexual function, ability to orgasm or any libido either) AND it meant they didn't have enough penile and scrotal skin to use customary techniques when they had their "gender affirming" genital surgeries at age 16 (in Jackie's and Trinity's cases), and at 17 in Jazz's. Not having enough material to work with means these young males had to have surgeries using tissues from other parts of the body, which in the case of Jazz we know didn't turn out well. How this is supposed to help these young males "pass" better is beyond me.

As for young people who develop GD during adolescence, I agree more research is needed. But again, these kids are not a monolith, and they are developing adolescent GD for very different reasons. The females are generally fleeing from sexual objectification, whilst the males are generally pursuing what the females are running from. A lot of females who develop GD in adolescence do seem to desist from it later in adolescence or in early adulthood. But in males, adolescent-onset GD is a thornier problem that might well turn out to be more permanent because in males, adolescent GD is usually caused by AGP - and AGP is driven by two incredibly powerful forces: the human male sex drive and narcissism. Moreover, when indulged instead of being treated in other ways, AGP seems to be a progressive disorder that overtakes the lives of those who develop it.