all 94 comments

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I think better formulations might be:

How can a body & an identity be "mismatched" (what has one got to do with the other)?

or

How can gender be both an immutable identity & an ever-changing social construct?

Male biology begets male socialisation, which begets male behavioural trends, even within the population who claim to have a cross-sex identity. I guess you could distinguish the sexed body & the resulting cultural conformity to the role associated with it as male vs. masculine, respectively, but most people think of masculinity & femininity as being limited to the superficial (the way you dress, walk & talk), even within feminism, or gender theory.

Judith Butler for instance quotes Simone de Beauvoir when talking about femininity. So at first it seems like she is using Beauvoir's understanding of femininity: the conditioning received by girls, but Butler suggests that anyone can be feminine (implying that even people who haven't been conditioned the way that girls have can be feminine), which seems to suggest she is using a colloquial definition of femininity, making her interpretation as hamfisted as Bruce Jenner's.

What is femininity? Is it limited to a glittery exterior? Is it female socialisation? Is it both? Is it even more than that? What if we extended the definition of femininity to include all of the roles women are expected to embody? In that case this new stipulated definition of femininity would also refer to things like sexual objectification & the nurturing of children, the elderly, partners, each other & anyone else who happens to be passing by – two huge features closely associated with women, but almost never associated with femininity

So if you reduced femininity down to its root (using the word femininity to refer to how an androcentric society views womanhood) it would come down to five types of objectification for male use:

  1. a decorative status symbol for men
  2. a fetishised masturbation aid for men
  3. a de-clawed, domesticated, infantilised pet for men
  4. an indentured servant for men
  5. a vessel for men to perpetuate themselves

If that's the social construct, can it be an identity? Notice how female biology is also interwoven into femininity. If someone is inculcated with these ideas from birth, the same way men expect the above from women is the same way women expect it from themselves & each other. Every word is culturally contaminated, including woman. Within a scientific context woman is just a female adult within the human race, but dictionaries don't include connotation. If society is androcentric/patriarchal & therefore systemically sexist, then the people within it are at least implicitly sexist, which would include their view on womanhood. In this way being a normative woman & being normatively feminine are exactly the same thing.

We are all aware of sexist slurs, so there is no need for me to repeat them for clarification, but in a sexist society these are not slurs, but synonyms for 'woman'. 'Woman' is just a formal way of saying all those slurs. Some girls try to opt out of this by calling themselves non-binary & when that doesn't work they call themselves men. The word 'woman' is not the source of the sexist contamination, but as long as it is contaminated, it will continue to contribute to sexist ideas. Women have sexist notions of what being a woman means (which I have previously referred to collectively as femininity), so identifying themselves as a woman is like a positive feedback circuit of these sexist notions of femininity, influencing their identity.

The obligatory "but what about exceptions?"

Obviously almost no woman will perfectly conform to all five ways of objectification, but there is certainly a pattern of behaviour within the female population that conforms to femininity. So the questions are: are behavioural trends within a demographic the result of a shared social identity? And is identity the result of socialisation? If the answer is yes to both, then "woman" can be an identity.

DSDs:

The only way woman could be a cross-sex identity is if male biology is mistaken for female biology "from birth", by everyone including the child itself. Then the domino effect I outlined in my opening paragraph would go in the other direction. This is the case for women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. It could be argued that their biology can be said to be more female than male, but that would be ignoring the fact that nature produces organisms that can reproduce asexually. This "default setting" would look a lot more female to our eyes than male (even though it cannot be said to be female, confusingly, science usually refers to it as female nonetheless), bc if a human could asexually reproduce it would require primary & secondary sex characteristics that currently only exist in the female population.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I didn’t ask about the body part because honestly I don’t care about that part.

I believe dysphoria is an actual (mental) condition. I can accept the idea of feeling that type of discomfort and wishing you were the opposite sex.

What I don’t understand and am offended by is the insistence on gender identity or the whole idea that “woman” “man” “female” “male” are senses of identity that matter more than the actual concept and meaning of those words.

I could even understand someone saying “look, we know we aren’t women but we’d prefer it if people pretended we were” or “if people see us as women they will treat us better and we will be safer/discriminated against less so we pretend to be women when we can”

But that’s obviously not what’s being said. So I’m focused on the actual idea that a sexed state of being that you just are or aren’t by chance is an identity.

Im asking because they can’t ever actually explain why their identity is something we should support, accept or take seriously. They just seem to think that we should support it. accept it and take it seriously because they claim it. Even though it makes no sense and is a literal insult to the people they claim to identify as/with.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The gender-swap cult co-opt 'gender identity' to refer to a 'cross-gender identity' which is determined by simply having the "strong desire" to be the opposite sex.

I don't think gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. It's just a sign of latent homosexuality. It's not something that exists outside the modern day West, so it's not something anyone can be said to be born with. However, the transsexual is probably a homosexual throwback, as smaller populations in the past would have left gay people with little choice but to conform to heteronormativity in such a way that they could still have same-sex pairings.

Maybe pretending to be a woman works for the individual, temporarily, but any sort of movement should concern itself with the acceptance of feminine gay men (autogynaephiles can do one). Chandler's dad was a feminine gay man, so was Dill from the Crying Game. I feel like society is less accepting nowadays of people like Kai Decadence than they would have been without the trans movement advocating that "TWAW".

[–]censorshipment 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is something we butch lesbians discuss. It's really hard to relate to the majority of women... straight(+bisexual) women... because they're more gender conforming than we are and do shit specifically for male attention/affection/love/etc. So to us, "woman" (womanhood) is very connected to heterosexuality and femininity. And it tends to be other women saying we (butches, gnc women) are not women, even though we are obviously female human beings just like them, because our womanhood is connected to homosexuality and masculinity. Basically, homophobic women (including feminists) define womanhood and (socially) exclude us.

Example: me and at least 2 other lesbians were temporarily banned from a women's subreddit for how we answered questions asked by men. The mods are straight and accused us of misandry which just meant "you lesbians aren't nice enough to men... go away." We also got downvoted a lot. Just felt like the straight women didn't want us there.

I compare this to race... if you are constantly shunned for not having skin light enough to be seen as white (European), what are you going to believe? You must not be white like them. Constantly being shunned by women can make one believe I must not be a woman like them.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Being a woman or man or female or male is more than an identity, it’s a physical reality, but someone can still have or develop the identity I feel like.

When I was little, I felt really strongly that I was a girl inside and was supposed to be one. Looking back, it seems like it was because my behaviors and interests that were labeled as feminine and I felt closer to girls. They were always my friends and we usually liked the same things. My parents would try to create situations where I would become friends with boys, but I didn’t like it and the boy usually wouldn’t want to play with me either. It was more confusing later when I started having feelings towards boys. Like, as an adult you can look back and be like this was just a effeminate gay child, but when you are a child you don’t understand things like stereotypes and, if you aren’t shown ways to be yourself and be a boy, the way you see yourself to make sense of it would just get stronger and stronger. I feel like trans identity for children might be more likely to develop for children who are raised religious and/or with strict ideas about gender. By the time a parent gets that child to a therapist, even if, as in my case, the therapist didn’t affirm the identity, I feel like it’s too late to really have any chance of shaking the sense of self. Or maybe the stubborn ones become transsexuals and that’s why we do. Maybe there are 9 other boys who go through the same thing and just become gay men. I don’t know, I’m just thinking out loud about it. I don’t know all the answers. I think the trans adults are more confusing because adults know more, but I don’t feel like I can say because I’d really just be speculating.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

When I was little, I felt really strongly that I was a girl inside and was supposed to be one. Looking back, it seems like it was because my behaviors and interests that were labeled as feminine and I felt closer to girls. They were always my friends and we usually liked the same things.

But it wasn't that you "felt closer to girls" in general, was it? Sounds to me that you felt closer to the particular girls who were your friends and who "liked the same things." My hunch is that this means the girls you gravitated toward and became were friends with and "felt closer to" were precisely and solely those who had "behaviors and interests that were labeled as feminine" just as you did. Not any of the many girls who could be called "tomboys" or any of the the much greater number of other "regular girls" who might have been forced to wear "feminine" attire, play with "girl toys" and behave as "mummy's little helpers," but who amongst themselves away from adult supervision would express discomfort and disdain for the sexist expectations put on them - and who when left to their own devices did not necessarily play with dolls and other "girl toys" given to them in the kind, gentle, dainty and delicate "feminine" ways assumed of them.

Seems to me like big circle was operating in your life and psyche: as a little boy, you had interests and behaviors that the unfortunately sexist - and dare I say homophobic? - adults in your lives labeled "feminine"; and you were drawn towards and felt kinship with other children who had similar interests, behaviors and likes too, which is completely normal for kids. In your case, the kids you were drawn to and felt an affinity with happened to be girls. But not all girls - just the subset of girls who "liked the same things" as you, meaning things adults and you designated as feminine.

It sounds like something happened in your childhood that prevented you from recognizing that there are many types of girls, that girls can have all kinds of personalities and interests and behaviors. And from seeing that there are some boys who are "feminine," sensitive, delicate, fussy, timid, fragile, small and vulnerable - far more so than a lot of girls. Which is one of the big lessons in the way that in To Kill A Mockingbird Harper Lee depicts her own rough-and-tumble alter ego, Scout, and her more demure and, excuse the term, "wimpy" male playmate Dill, based on Lee's RL childhood best friend Truman Capote. Instead, for whatever reason you got the idea fixed in your mind that girls in general and in whole had/have the behaviors, interests and liking for what's "feminine" as you - in other words, that girls innately have/had the same sensibilities as you. From there, you somehow made the leap that having a "feminine" sensibility means having a female sense of self.

Sorry if I have made leaps here. I'm not trying to offend, just trying to get a sense of the reasoning that was at work. Coz like Sloane, I just don't get how people can jump from feeling an affinity for members of the opposite sex who fit the narrow stereotypes associated with that sex that they as children learned to place prime importance on to coming to believe that they themselves are that sex too, or have the mind, soul or "inner essence" of that sex - and to claim to be that sex later on in adolescence and adulthood.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It sounds like something happened in your childhood that prevented you from recognizing that there are many types of girls, that girls can have all kinds of personalities and interests and behaviors.

Socialization happened. We get taught that boys behave this way and like this and that and girls behave this other way and like these other things. If you aren’t socialized as a female, and are socialized as a male, the only thing you learn about the opposite sex is what you’re supposed to expect a girl/woman to be (and possibly how you’re “supposed” to treat her), you don’t learn that that’s just bullshit expectation.

It’s why terms like “tomboy” exist. To explain away a girl who has the audacity to not behave the way shes “supposed to”.

I can’t speak for peaking but I imagine most boys (dysphoric or not) assume that “all” girls like the things peaking gravitated to.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah, I know all about socialization. But even when I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s, the view of males and females I got (and other people I know of my age and several decades younger) was not as stereotypically and uniformly one-dimensional as the extremely narrow, shallow view that you and peaking seem to have gotten - and which you seem to think has always been the norm. Maybe it was because of bigger families back then, bigger school class sizes, the larger role that religion played in general society, the outsized presence of nuns in popular culture generally and in the particular the kind of education I got as a student at convent school, and the fact that kids spent so much time amongst one another unsupervised by adults and thus had the chance to let our true selves out ... I dunno what caused it, but most people I know who are over 45 or so did not get the idea when growing up that all boys were a certain very narrow way, and only that narrow way, and all girls were another kind of narrow way, and only that narrow way.

Also, in the milieu I was grew up "tomboy" wasn't much used. When not in our school uniforms or "Sunday best," most girls dressed and behaved in a wide range of ways, much of them not at all "girly" as it's defined today. Girls could be rough and tumble, sporty, feisty, nasty, loud, bossy, opinionated, obstinate, difficult, bratty, troublesome, adventurous, curious, challenging, irritable, selfish, tart-tongued, foul-mouthed, argumentative and so on just as much as they/we could be gentle, caring, docile, demure, dainty, patient, yielding, accommodating, obedient, considerate, soft-spoken, well-behaved etc. Girls in some milieus and situations might have been discouraged and shamed for certain behaviors that weren't stereotypically "feminine," but it wasn't like anyone thought that girls and women couldn't naturally have a whole range of personality traits that fall far outside the "good girl" or "ideal woman" box. Because we all knew girls who didn't fit those boxes, just as we knew women who didn't either.

When I was growing up, no one I knew seriously believed that girls were actually made of "sugar and spice, everything nice" because just as there were a lot of mean, fierce, powerful and terrifying mothers around, on every block, in every class room, and in the case of big families like mine, there were real live girls who were often mean, hard-edged and behaved in horrible ways. In fact, one of the poems that I heard most as a child was "There Was a Little Girl" by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:

There was a little girl,

Who had a little curl,

Right in the middle of her forehead.

When she was good,

She was very good indeed,

But when she was bad she was horrid.

Now perhaps this poem was meant to shame girls, but to me it was a clear acknowledgment that girls' behavior runs the whole gamut from good to bad - and when we behaved badly, it was in our nature and power to go whole hog rather than just be a little bit bad.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, I know all about socialization. But even when I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s, the view of males and females I got (and other people I know of my age and several decades younger) was not as stereotypically and uniformly one-dimensional as the extremely narrow, shallow view that you and peaking seem to have gotten

This is needlessly condescending lol, I’m not saying that people can’t and don’t understand that people don’t have to fit in gendered boxes, I’m saying that we are taught gender and all it’s roles and expectations. Socialization exists and a part of it is very much saying boys/men like/do this, girls/women like/do that. I can remember being told to not sit this way or dress that way or whatever because I was a girl.

Peaking and other trans people here have said that their parents or other adult figures tried to make them behave differently or play with different kids/toys because of their sex.

Obviously people of all ages behave differently, but the fact that you listed all those different types of behaviors and said that girls can be either or both should indicate that you understood what I meant when I said socialization played a part in what peaking said- otherwise why separate those lists of behaviors. So I guess I don’t get why you’re now dismissing it?

Gendered socialization and the understanding that not everyone is going to conform to it can exist simultaneously.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I didn't mean to be condescending. Sorry!

I am just so confounded by the whole "identify as" thing. It brings out the worst in me.

I also didn't mean to be dismissing socialization. Again, sorry!

It just seems that so many people who have fallen into gender ideology really took what they were told/taught as children totally to heart to a degree that stands out to me as unusual. And I am trying to put my finger on why this is. What changed in the culture between the time I was a kid and, say, the 1990s?

I had lots of strict traditional ideas about all sorts of things shoved down my throat as a kid. Everyone did. But I recall very distinctly being a child of 7-8 or so and thinking "this is BS" and rolling my eyes, and my siblings and friends all doing the same. For all the socialization and indoctrination that I recall happening - and there was a ton of it - amongst the kids I knew there was at a countervailing widespread skepticism, irreverence and a smart-alecky attitude of "of yeah, right, pull the other leg!"

Perhaps one reason is that I grew up in a neighborhood and community where a lot of people were very religious, but everyone practiced different religions - and so there was a lot of comparisons amongst us kids of the different religious lore, rites and rituals in each home, and in each different house of worship. Whatever the reason, we kids often discussed the stuff we all were being taught at home, in school and at church/temple - and something we agreed on from fairly early on - like 7 or so - was how we sometimes had to pretend to go along with stuff we were told by our parents/teachers/elders/priests/nuns, etc said so as to humor them and not distress them.

Again, sorry for sounding condescending and dismissive.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Nah I tend to get agitated when I go back and forth here a lot in one day. I was already frustrated, Took what you said the wrong way.

I do think there was a shift in the late 80’s/90’s. I can’t put my finger on what it was though. I just know the gender lines were drawn and then the early 2000’s was spent saying “fuck those lines” yet somehow we ended up here lol

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I imagine the emergence, spread & increasing popularity of cable TV, affordable home video players & tapes, in the 80s & 90s were a major factor, and with them the proliferation of often sexist & trite media and "children's programming" meant for little kids (by companies like Disney & Saban). And of course the introduction & popularity of home video games. Along with parents no longer setting any limits on the amount of time a day kids could spent staring at screens.

Used to be, there were only a handful of TV stations in any market, and kids at home could only watch the TV shows & movies that adults running the few stations/channels in their area decided to broadcast, and only at the time when that particular content actually aired. So kids would get to see their fave TV show for 30 minutes once a week, and their fave movie on TV once a year. Even kiddie fare that aired daily or most days, like cartoons or Romper Room, only aired for 30 minutes to an hour or two at one time or select times of the day. But in the 80s and 90s, more people got cable, the number of cable channels greatly expanded, and parents could also tape or buy their kids' fave movie and shows, park their tots in front of the TV set and let them watch the same material over & over. In such a situation, the imagery & messages of the mass-produced media consumed by young impressionable minds was bound to sink in deep, and to loom larger in their psyches than what those same little kids might have observed in and of the real world. If, that is, they had much chance to to observe in the real world - a big if because at that same juncture in history, kids became far more indoor-bound homebodies than ever before.

Which brings us to another huge shift that occurred in the 80s, in the US at least. The 80s marked the turning point when kids en masse stopped spending a lot of time, or any time, outside the home unsupervised and unchaperoned by adults. The highly-publicized and tragic cases of Etan Patz and Adam Walsh put and end to the sort of "free range childhoods" that kids of earlier generations had, when children in suburban, urban, small town & rural settings alike all spent a great deal of their/our free time on our own amongst other kids without any adult supervision & input - and when it was customary to walked to school or the bus stop on our own too starting in kindergarten.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was thinking about this, and I agree with what you’re saying.

I also noticed this, maybe it’s nothing lol

When I look at old photos of my parents and older family when they were kids, they have a lot of similar toys and stuff that I had as a kid, except the stuff I had was unnecessarily gendered. Meaning- i have a pic of my mom when she was 4/5, she’s in a dress sitting in a toy car, just a simple red little toy car (the kind you can sit in and drive). But when I was a kid I had a toy car that was various shades of pink and had hearts and flowers while my brother had one that was black and red and had flames on it lol. Same brand, same price, same exact design and function- but mine was ultra “girly” and my brother’s was “manly”.

Idk just something that was on my mind lol

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like this is a really good description. Thank you for taking the time to write it!!

The whole topic makes me sad to think about. I feel like you just grew up in environment where gender nonconformity was more recognized and accepted than I did. I know now as an adult that boys can be like I was and girls can like more rough and tumble things and none those things aren’t natural parts of being a boy or a girl, but I raised to believe they were before I can remember it. If someone wasn’t like that, they were wrong. Maybe it is mental illness to see yourself as another sex, but, if it developed, it wasn’t a conscious choice, and you don’t want to be wrong to the adults around you. You have to make sense of it somehow. You don’t know it’s sexism and homophobia. You think it’s just how the world is and believing your a girl in some metaphysical ways explains how you can exist when you can’t imagine a world outside the one your parents and community have laid out for you. I don’t know totally know what is caused me to be how I am, but it makes the most sense to me. Once I stopped believing that being “born in the wrong body” was real I’ve tried to explain it to myself. None of it matters I guess, but I wish I could know. I want little girls and boys to be taught from birth that they are fine just how they are and to not feel like they have to be one way.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

I think what I still don’t understand from your answer is how that equals a female identity. I understand feeling out of place or preferring female company and things considered feminine. I don’t understand thinking that means you’re actually a woman or supposed to be one, rather than thinking that you wished you were one

That’s my thing- I could absolutely understand a trans person saying they have dysphoria and or spent their whole life wishing they were the opposite sex/gender.

I will never understand the leap to claiming to actually be or identify as the opposite sex/gender.

It just seems incredibly egotistical/delusional (it’s one or the other, idk which one but it’s got to be one or the other imo) to tell yourself and others that you somehow are so enlightened and aware that despite not knowing what it is to inhabit the body and lived reality of the opposite sex/gender you somehow understand what it is to be the opposite sex/gender so thoroughly that you can claim it for yourself.

It’s not the wanting I don’t get, it’s the insisting you are something you have no actual understanding of outside of your own assumptions that are colored by a discomfort that the people of the opposite sex/gender don’t even experience. How can you claim to be/identify as something just because it’s the only alternative to what you are and you don’t like what you are?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m not sure if my identity is the same as a female identity or what that would be like. I can never experience the world as anything or anyone other than myself. When I talk about identity or sense of self, I mean how I see or think of myself. It’s not meant to be a factual statement about me being something (other than maybe a transsexual). It’s just trying to explain how that type of identity develops or could develop. I don’t think it can be totally explained logically because when/if I came to my sense of self, it wouldn’t be through any conscious logic, I was a child. I was hurting and struggling to fit into a world where it didn’t feel like I fit.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I get that, I think you articulate what it’s like to be trans very well. I just wish generally speaking it could be acknowledged that in actuality trans people are identifying as trans, not the opposite sex/gender. I feel like for me personally, a shift like that would make a huge difference in how I feel about a lot of the issues we discuss on this sub. I can understand and empathize with what you described, but I lose a lot of that empathy when what you described is followed by asserting that that means the trans person feeling that way is a wo/man, if that makes sense.

I didn’t mean to imply that you were egotistical/delusional at all, I meant that when people make the leap to claim to be the opposite sex/gender than they are that it seems to come from a place of ego/delusion. I know that’s not much better and I apologize for my wording.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

I can’t speak for peaking but as far as the feeling wrong it’s hard to articulate, I just knew.

Like when someone moves a piece of furniture after a decade and the next time you walk In the room it just feels wrong.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I guess what I don’t get is that, I get moving furniture and that throwing off the way the room feels- but your “furniture” wasn’t ever moved when you felt wrong. If you started out life as a female person, somehow changed to male and then felt out of place- I get that. But you started out in the place of discomfort without any frame of reference for how it feels to be in the other position (still using the furniture analogy, it’s not going well for me lol).

That’s what my thing always is- I absolutely understand feeling discomfort, I even understand wanting to be the opposite sex/gender, even understand the hormones and possible surgery to present as the opposite sex/gender- I do not and can not understand the leap to claiming to actually be or identify with/as something you just literally have not ever inhabited to understand in any real way. Even post transition, trans people will never know what it truly feels like to be the opposite sex/gender no matter how they are perceived/treated, because they will always factually be the sex they were born and will only be able to view life through that lens. Meaning, even if you (hypothetical you, not you) look female, you’re still a male person who looks female and that is what you’re experiencing- not actually being female and experiencing being female. That difference matters in a lot of ways and for a lot of reasons. And I think that the inability of TW to understand that significant difference is the root of a lot of the growing animosity and the drop in support.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I was just trying to communicate that feeing of wrongness. It’s that but 24/7 for whole pieces of your body. I’m not saying it’s caused the same way just that it’s the closest analogue I have for the feeing that I can express.

As to the rest, I know what feels bad and what feels right. I do think of myself as a woman but even if i didn’t, can you fathom the terrible self esteem required to define yourself as an imposter deserving of lesser treatment? That’s essentially what you are asking of us. Consider ourselves imposters and accept that we should treated as imposters. Surely you see how no person would want that for themselves.

[–]kwallio 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think for many people the feeling of wrongness that you feel doesn't necessarily mean that you are something else. Being or feeling wrong doesn't logically progress to "and that meant I'm something else". You can feel all sorts of feelings about your body without necessarily making the leap to "and therefore I'm something else". I don't get that leap also, like lovesloan says despite everything you don't really understand what its like to be a female.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Im not asking you to accept lesser treatment.

Im asking you to respect the needs and rights and differences of the people you found your sense of identity in. How can you mold yourself after a woman’s image and claim to identify as them and then undermine them at every turn?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You are demanding changes that lead to our lesser treatment then pretending we have the power to change that result.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Im demanding female people be respected and treated equally

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You are saying let’s take everything trans women have, then saying it’s our responsibility to build from the ground but also we can’t do anything we did before.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Not everything TW have, just the things they stole from women.

Literally every single marginalized group to ever exist had to build from the ground up. Including women. You absolutely should not be allowed to undo our rights that we actually had the tenacity to fight for for your benefit.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The modern understanding of identity through gender is literally a misinterpretation of the concept of identity in psychology.

Identity is ones perception of themselves but it was factual until gender wormed into it.

Nobody identified as a banker or a mother or a musician if they weren’t. Now, identity seems to refer to a collection of preferences in how one would like to be perceived, with no relationship with reality taking place.

It’s been mixed up with the sociological use of the term and is used to refer to a collection of groups an individual belongs to and presenting the group as a personality trait.

The modern idea of identity is literally a wrong answer to an ‘intro to psychology’ question and is being used as a weapon against women.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

It just is. Identity is complicated. How about this. I know you are a mother. That’s part of your identity.

But what about adoptive mothers, someone who takes a kid in for years but doesn’t adopt them, a close older friend who cares for someone for a while, the nice lady down the block who makes sure no one on the street goes hungry and has a ride to the doctor? All these people may consider themself a mother as part of their identity. It’s not just a woman who gives birth to everyone.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

So now you've decided to seize and redefine the word "mother" too? And you've decided to redefine it in a way meant to sever the connection to being biologically female like you've done with the word "woman"? And you've decided to redefine "mother" so it has nothing to do with human reproduction, the way on another thread you've argued that women's breasts play no part in procreation? Sheesh, talk about arrogance, grabbiness and appropriation - and male entitlement.

Adoptive mothers enter into a formal, legal arrangement to be responsible for raising, caring for and seeing to all the needs of a minor growing up. Adoptive mothers are not in the same category as the other people you list, and throwing them in with all those other people belittles adoptive mothers.

someone who takes a kid in for years but doesn’t adopt them, a close older friend who cares for someone for a while, the nice lady down the block who makes sure no one on the street goes hungry and has a ride to the doctor? All these people may consider themself a mother as part of their identity

I know many foster parents who call themselves foster parents, foster moms and foster dads. Some go by uncle and aunt, or just their names. But none of them call themselves just plain mothers and fathers - the foster is key to their role. No foster agency would work with people who don't make the distinction between foster parenting and being a blood parent or adoptive parent. Boundaries and clear definitions are very important in fostering - it's damaging to kids in foster care to ignore the boundaries and blur the definitions. Also, no man I know or have ever heard of who has taken in kids has used the word "mother" for himself.

I have never heard anyone of either sex "who cares for someone for a while" saying that makes them a mother. A nurse, a helper, a carer, a companion, a sister of mercy, a Florence Nightingale - yes. A mother, no. Persons who do care for other people's children typically call themselves nannies, baby sitters, child minders - not mothers.

The nice lady down the block who looks out for the people on her street might say she is a good neighbor, a humanitarian, someone who is "people oriented," a concerned, caring citizen. She might even call herself a saint. But unless she's the head of a religious order with the title "mother superior," I highly doubt any "nice lady" would see fit to call herself a mother of anyone she has not given birth to, adopted or had a hand in raising from childhood on as in the case of stepmothers.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is everything I’ve been trying to say. So perfectly put.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

We aren’t going to agree on that because i think the relationships we form and how we feel about them matter more than blood or a court order. Sounds like you disagree.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Which of the two holds up legally?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Who cares? Why should law define the way people are. It should be the opposite if anything.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lmao

So if a kid is outside of school waiting to be picked up, any one who claims to be their mother can just take them? Because it doesn’t matter who is actually their mother? As long as the person taking them identifies as their mother?

Do they even have to identify specifically as that particular child’s mother or just as a mother in general?

If you are actually someone’s mother does that mean you can just take whatever child you want and claim it as your own?

How far do you want to take this?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A mother doesn’t mean their mother and whether that kid thinks of them as their mother is just as big a part.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So you do understand that someone saying they are a mother doesn’t make them someone’s mother? Cool.

[–]kwallio 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why should law define the way people are

Says the person of the group demanding the law define intervene on their behalf.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Identity does not equal reality. A neighbor who watches the kids every now and then is not a mother. A babysitter is not a mother.

Identity is make believe, a personal fiction. Most drivers believe they are above average drivers, but that is impossible. Their identity does not match reality. Much in the same way a childless babysitter who identifies as a mother has a false identity. Or a man who identifies as a woman has a false identity that does not match reality.

Identities can be fairly accurate, but a lot of identities are false. Someone can identify as a great boss, but their employees would tell you otherwise. Someone can identify as a great singer and go on reality tv talent shows to blow people's minds and ears out with their complete lack of singing skills & mind boggling hubris. Identity no matter how much you want to believe it does, does not trump reality.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

An adoptive mother is literally a mother. Someone who behaves “motherly” but is not actually a mother through birth or adoption is literally not a mother, regardless of whether or not she does things people consider motherly.

Motherhood is a fact just as much as womanhood is.

A caretaker who didn’t adopt the child they care for is literally not that child’s parent, even if a bond is formed.

A close friend who cares for someone is just that- a close friend.

The nice lady down the block is just that- the nice lady down the block.

Susan Smith. Casey Anthony. Diane Downs. All literally mothers.

Hell, even Joan Crawford was literally a mother.

Not sure what your point is.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We have words to describe someone being like a mother but not actually being one.

You can call someone motherly or maternal, say they have “maternal instinct” etc.

Actual Motherhood is just as real and factual as actual womanhood.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

My point is that they think of themselves as mothers and people think of them as mothers.

And I think they are right. My birth mother disowned me when I transitioned. My best friends family welcomed me in. Her mother told me to call her mom. She’s more a mother to me than my birth mother. And that should matter.

And identity is like that. It’s not about a dictionary definition. It’s how you fit in the world and how you act and how people see you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Im confident that no one who is not actually a mother doesn’t understand that they are not actually a mother. Unless they are severely mentally ill or something.

Your best friend’s mother may be a mother figure to you- is she legally or biologically your mother? If you ended up in the hospital would she be covered when they say only immediate family can visit? Could she make next of kin decisions for you if you weren’t capable? Could you do those things for her?

It does matter. To you. And to her. On a personal level. It doesn’t matter beyond that. I’m glad you have that connection, I truly am, I can’t tell you how genuinely happy it made me to read that you have that type of relationship, so I’m not trying to diminish it’s importance for you, my point is just that it’s significant on a solely personal level, it’s not recognized in any real way. Which is why I always say your personal sense of self can be just that, it’s just odd and imo wrong to expect others to take it as seriously as you do or even to respect it.

And identity is like that. It’s not about a dictionary definition. It’s how you fit in the world and how you act and how people see you.

Again- the world may see someone as maternal or motherly, if she’s not actually a mother, everyone will understand that. That’s why we have terms like “motherly” “maternal” “mother figure”.

The concept of claiming a close loved one as family is common, everyone still understands the difference between an actual sister and someone close like a sister. Regardless of the quality of the relationship with the actual sister in comparison to the person that’s “like” a sister.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I just don’t see it that way. There’s more to the self than dictionary definitions and our interactions and feelings matter more. Sounds like you disagree and there’s no more bedrock to go.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

There is absolutely more to self than dictionary definitions.

But some senses of self exist solely because of fact and material reality.

Actual motherhood is literally a provable, verifiable fact.

You can claim the identity of a mother I suppose, you can claim any identity you choose, it’s still not going to ever make someone who is not a mother a mother.

I genuinely don’t get how you can’t acknowledge that. It’s just a basic truth.

Someon can absolutely be a mother figure, a stand in for a mother- that still doesn’t make them a mother if they don’t have their own children. And it doesn’t make them literally your mother unless they legally make it so or they birthed you.

I just don’t get why you always just go with “we see it differently” instead of actually addressing and debating what we say. You know what a mother is. I presume you’re intelligent enough to understand the concept of a mother figure. I don’t get why you’d choose to conflate the two for argument’s sake when you should see how flimsy it is.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I think you are so married to dictionary definitions that it keeps you from acknowledging how people actually live. When you reach a fundamental belief that’s different then someone changes or there’s nothing left to debate about. We have different beliefs about the nature of words and the nature of identity. That won’t change so why keep gnawing on that particular bone?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

explain the difference between a mother and a mother figure

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Explain the difference between a friend and a best friend.

It’s subjective and personal. Not quantifiable.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Lmao this is such bullshit

A friend is not the same as mother lol

A friend is someone you enjoy spending time with, someone whose presence you enjoy. A best friend is usually understood to be the friend you are closest to. Either way, a friend is friend and a mother is an obviously very specific and unrelated relationship.

So again- can you explain the difference between a mother and a mother figure?

Or at least explain why you are so reluctant to explain the difference?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

If an identity is taken to mean just the summation of what or who someone or something is, if one really sees their being the opposite sex as a fact, then they would just see it as a fact. I believe that can be the case, especially for children. But that would be maybe just the idea of identifying as something. To identify with something or someone, I would think it's just recognizing similarities or feeling connection or kinship or something like that, like noticing one has more traits that seem to be common with the opposite sex--that person doesn't genuinely believe themselves to be a member of that sex.

But I think that's part of the conclusion that dysphoric children reach that Peaking touched on: as a child, you might conclude you are the opposite sex because of the similarities you see between yourself and members of that sex, or all of the stereotypes and generalizations attributed to that sex. For me, it seemed like the whole world was constantly telling me in many ways that I was a girl or supposed to be one, so that's the conclusion I made.

Why should an adult or anyone who knows or knew better identify as the opposite sex? I'm not sure. For me, it is a fact still that I was supposed to be born a girl (or so I was repeatedly told), like a matter-of-fact medical fact which I find impossible to ignore. I took the idea that I was supposed to be born a girl to mean that I am supposed to be female. Maybe it isn't true for others, or it's too general to apply to most trans people, but somehow a person must be convinced in some way that they are or are supposed to be the opposite sex (or have no sex, or be both)--and it's easier to be convinced of something if everyone is telling you or demonstrating to you that it seemingly is the case.

Affirmation seems to be the key to perpetuating and strengthening any beliefs, so affirming 'woman' or 'man' as an identity that one has that might not match their sex makes sense how even someone who never believed such a thing about themselves would grow to see that as a fact. The whole concept of 'cracking eggs' is a great, albeit horrifying demonstration of that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

if one really sees their being the opposite sex as a fact, then they would just see it as a fact

But how though? Lol that’s what I’m trying to figure out. How can someone just believe something that the very fact of their body disproves?

I get what you’re saying in general, and you as usual make great points. I just don’t see how I could look at my female body and think I’m the opposite sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm with you Sloane in not being any closer to figuring out this "identify as" phenomenon so it makes more sense.

Another thing I have a hard time wrapping my head around is the notion that boys can grow up thinking they are girls when their male gonads and genitals are right there in their laps/crotches where they can see them just by looking down - and they handle their penises each time they pee. Whereas girls' genitals are tucked between our legs in such a way that we never see them really until we get older and look with a mirror, we don't touch and hold them with our hands each time we pee - and of course, we never see or touch our gonads, unlike guys who are always scratching and "adjusting" theirs.

Then when boys start puberty and their dicks and balls start growing, they get spontaneous erections, have wet dreams, and start masturbating and intentionally ejaculating. I can't imagine how when all that stuff is going on that boys hold on to the idea inculcated early in childhood that they're somehow really girls. It's not that I don't believe it happens - clearly it does, from what peaking and Fleurista say. It's just that my powers of imagination are too limited...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now that I'm really thinking about it, I kind of see a way to explain this that might make sense that both you and Sloane touched on: I feel like basically as a young child, I accidentally embodied QT. So, the conclusions that QT adolescents, teens and adults make and assert about sex and gender and stereotypes are conclusions naturally reached by a child who wouldn't know any other reality. That's sort of how I see it, because much of what QT espouses is in line with my thinking as a child. That would explain why I feel like those views are immature or 'childish', just because that's the kind of thinking I would have as a child. I think those beliefs only really hold (or hold as best as they can) if there is no other point of reference. So, to a child like that sex truly is just a blend of superficial and stereotypical things that have nothing to do with sex. Maybe that's not the case at all, though, but that thought struck me as I was driving home today.

ETA: OK so maybe QT was derived from the lived accounts told by adult transsexuals who grew up with dysphoria from childhood, and it's all been misappropriated by people who do not understand what this experience is like. So, it's the beliefs and accounts taken from transsexuals, but trying to apply them to people who have not lived with this confusion their whole lives--sort of akin to trying to sing a song of which you know the lyrics, but you don't know the melody. Obviously adults and older kids can become dysphoric, too, but I think the treatment and methodology of how to deal with it is just taken from what is standard for transsexuals who grew up this way.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I have a harder time understanding how older kids or teens or adults come to that conclusion, but I think it just has to be sort of a peer pressure by way of uninvited affirmation.

Like, many people have told me I have blonde hair, even though to me it is clearly brown. But so many people for so long have insisted that I have blonde hair that I can't help but conclude that I must have some kind of blonde hair, even though I still can't really see it... well, I think I can see it, because now I'm looking for whatever it is that others are seeing, and any bit of evidence supports that, I suppose. If I, in my heart of hearts, wanted to be a natural blonde, then I would maybe really lean into what others were telling me and be thrilled to tell the world I am a natural blonde and have that listed on my IDs and even join a 'blonde pride' social group, but it doesn't matter to me so I just don't care whether my hair is blonde or brown.

I would think the same would be the same for sex. Like, a person must already have some sort of doubts or feeling that they would be happier as the other sex or no sex or both sexes, that it would feel 'right' or better, so any affirmation would be fuel for the belief that you are that. There must have to be something that's 'off' for one to feel like that to begin with, in some way. Like, something or someone maybe puts that idea in someone's head and for some people they become fixated on it and the idea becomes more real.

Does that answer your question a bit more? People really seem to latch on to the 'identity' part of 'gender identity' and 'gender identity disorder', which makes me wonder if that's the common thread: that everyone who concludes they are the opposite sex (or they're trans, or have no sex, or are of both or more sexes) has some sort of malleability in their overall identification as a person, or just who they are.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I guess I just think- sex is so clearly visible allover. I don’t get how someone can look at their penis and think “woman” or their vagina and think “man”

My son knows he’s a boy and he knows girls have vaginas. Of course he’s not dysphoric or dealing with people telling him he was meant to be a girl- but I know too many small children (that sounds creepy, my husband has 4 siblings and they all have hella kids and my brother has three kids lol, we have a huge family with lots of kids. Just had to clarify) who understand the basics of sex and the differences between the two sexes to be able to understand how someone just thinks they are the opposite sex. Even if you think that as a very young child, you’d have to be sheltered from any fact of sex for your whole life to still think this by the time you’re like 6/7. Sex is just way too obvious. How can you even watch tv or read and not understand the truth of your body?

Like I get how light brown hair may be called blonde, I don’t see anyone saying “yeah my penis and lack of breasts or a period etc must mean Im a female”

I get thinking you should have been, I don’t get thinking you are

It took us a while to potty train my son. It took him a few minutes to understand why he had to stand when he peed but sit when he did the other lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Most kids can probably tell the difference that way if it's presented to them or they are somehow made aware of it, even just noticing. I indeed had a very isolated and sheltered childhood without other children around most of the time, so I didn't really have lots of opportunities where I could learn that difference. If my parents tried to teach me at some point, I have absolutely no memory of it, and based on what my mother has told me it doesn't sound like she or my father ever tried to make that clear. It's actually still surprising to me that children so young could recognize the difference between sexes and understand the physical differences between boys and girls, just because that was completely foreign to me.

You might be right then, maybe that is the only sort of scenario where one would genuinely believe they were they opposite sex, and it would probably be a very uncommon one. I haven't met anyone who came about that sort of conclusion in that way, but from experience I can say that it can indeed happen! lol

And that doesn't sound creepy at all lol just steer clear of ever using a Michael Scott-esque username like 'LittleKidLover' and you're golden!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I totally think, especially in today’s world, that some kids can grow up in an environment where they don’t get a clear understanding of sex because it’s either not being explained adequately or at all (or situations like yours). I just don’t think it’s the norm, not even for kids who will end up transitioning. I’d think it would be extremely rare, especially in the past when we were kids. So I’m thinking more kids struggling with gender/sex should have a pretty solid grasp on the concept of sex and their actual sex than don’t. But again I do accept there are situations where that’s not the case.

Sex was never made into a huge deal in my family, but we all understood it. I grew up in a more open household (like- zero boundaries lol) so maybe my brother and I had a more thorough explanation about sex before we started school, but even at school the other kids understood sex. I learned about periods from my classmate well before my mother intended to talk to me about them lmao. And my brother had a girl in his class explain that she had a vagina and babies came out of it. And then she showed her vagina. That kind of thing actually happens fairly often with younger kids. Most kids do understand that there are differences between boys and girls, even if they don’t understand with any nuance or detail.

And now I have to convince myself not to make my flair LittleKidLover lol

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I definitely don't think it's the norm, even among those who transition like you say. I would have thought there would be less chance of something like that happening in contemporary times because of the widespread availability of information and the ability to communicate with others, but maybe that's what you're getting at that would make it extra confusing for kids now... which is kind of depressing. Just having more information and people in my life to talk to or teach me things or learn from maybe would have been sufficient to prevent my belief from taking hold. But seeing all that stuff about multiple genders and sex and the differences between them and that sort of thing is even confusing for me as an adult, these poor kids today must be horribly confused and lost. What's weird is maybe both extremes could foster an identification like that, either being totally ignorant or being inundated with information (especially early on). It would have been nice and probably incredibly helpful to know about gender nonconformity and being gay and that sort of stuff, but having the dirge of LGBTQ+ 'information' be almost seemingly forced onto kids like it is now doesn't seem necessarily very helpful either by confusing or distressing them either.

Sex was never made into a huge deal in my family, but we all understood it. I grew up in a more open household (like- zero boundaries lol) so maybe my brother and I had a more thorough explanation about sex before we started school, but even at school the other kids understood sex. I learned about periods from my classmate well before my mother intended to talk to me about them lmao. And my brother had a girl in his class explain that she had a vagina and babies came out of it. And then she showed her vagina. That kind of thing actually happens fairly often with younger kids. Most kids do understand that there are differences between boys and girls, even if they don’t understand with any nuance or detail.

That's really interesting, I do wonder if I had siblings or older cousins if I would have learned more or been taught about that stuff. It sounds like you grew up in like the complete opposite sort of environment regarding that sort of stuff, that all sounds so strange and unthinkable to me! Was sex and peoples' sexes not a taboo subject in general, like even outside of your home? I can see kids being curious and exposing themselves like that, but were adults also relatively open? Obviously not exposing themselves (I hope!)

And now I have to convince myself not to make my flair LittleKidLover lol

Probably the best decision, although I secretly want you to because it really would be hilarious 😂

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

but maybe that's what you're getting at that would make it extra confusing for kids now... which is kind of depressing

Yes That’s exactly what I was getting at. I think it’s easier for me to accept the idea of a child (or rather more children in general) being confused about sex as an entire concept, but especially about their own sex. Particularly in today’s climate.

I am honestly expecting a lot of cases of people who are children now or were a few years ago suing over the blockers and all of that stuff. I think a lot of children and teens are getting sucked into the tra side of trans issues and are being influenced. It’s everywhere. I notice it a lot even with the shows I play for my oldest (that’s still so weird to me to say or type! Sorry lol it’s just funny to me), they’re talking about gender identity and sexuality in some of those shows.

I think kids with dysphoria obviously exist, but I think the idea of gender identity and being trans is something that people should maybe come to on their own instead of it being pushed and taught. I think the concept is accessible enough now that they could learn about it on their own and then look into talking to someone about it, if that makes sense. Like I’d think that’s the way to ensure that the people transitioning will actually be the ones who “need” it instead of people doing things because they were influenced at a vulnerable and impressionable age. Idk if that made any sense lol

Was sex and peoples' sexes not a taboo subject in general, like even outside of your home?

My mom worked with an lgbt center and we were always around lgbt people so I think maybe our parents just thought it best to be upfront. She would always invite the “lgbt orphans” for holidays and sometimes just dinners and stuff. They explained being trans to us specifically because she was (and still is) close friends with a TW and we spent a lot of time together and my mother wanted us to understand. Other than that, both of my parents explained when we asked (in an appropriate but honest way) or when it was necessary (like me coming home from school terrified because my classmate randomly informed me that I’d start bleeding out of my vagina lol). They have always been very open about anything from sex and sexuality to drugs and anything else. I think it’s why I lack any type of filter lol. They always made sure we knew we could ask them anything and be honest about how we felt and what we thought. It’s why when I knew I was bi I had no fear of telling them or dating whoever I wanted. But I acknowledge that I was very lucky to have that and not everyone does. Nobody was inappropriate.

That's really interesting, I do wonder if I had siblings or older cousins if I would have learned more or been taught about that stuff.

Oh yeah older cousins will tell you EVERYTHING about everything lol

Probably the best decision, although I secretly want you to because it really would be hilarious

Im gonna pick a random day and use it as a flair just to see if you notice lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's incredibly worrisome and angering that that sort of thing is being introduced and pushed onto children early on in their lives. It's intentionally confusing, cruel and I fear that it's like this mass manufactured transsexualism that these kids are being set up for. This is not a good experience, no child should grow up that way and have to deal with the ramifications of that for the rest of their lives. It makes life unnecessarily difficult and painful, and makes it harder for children (or anyone) to love and accept themselves exactly for all of who and what they are. I am sorry I see it that way, but to me it is incredibly cruel or irresponsible at best.

I think kids with dysphoria obviously exist, but I think the idea of gender identity and being trans is something that people should maybe come to on their own instead of it being pushed and taught. I think the concept is accessible enough now that they could learn about it on their own and then look into talking to someone about it, if that makes sense. Like I’d think that’s the way to ensure that the people transitioning will actually be the ones who “need” it instead of people doing things because they were influenced at a vulnerable and impressionable age. Idk if that made any sense lol

That makes complete sense! I would agree, we could even redirect the energy of this contemporary societal obsession with transgenderism and gender into figuring out early interventions to help kids better understand sex and sex-based roles, and prevent transsexualism and/or dysphoria from happening in the first place. I've grown more and more of the opinion that there has to be a way to avoid transitioning, I see transitioning is more like the calmative or antidepressant medication that is just intended to help a patient relax enough to attend therapy.

My mom worked with an lgbt center and we were always around lgbt people so I think maybe our parents just thought it best to be upfront. She would always invite the “lgbt orphans” for holidays and sometimes just dinners and stuff. They explained being trans to us specifically because she was (and still is) close friends with a TW and we spent a lot of time together and my mother wanted us to understand. Other than that, both of my parents explained when we asked (in an appropriate but honest way) or when it was necessary (like me coming home from school terrified because my classmate randomly informed me that I’d start bleeding out of my vagina lol). They have always been very open about anything from sex and sexuality to drugs and anything else. I think it’s why I lack any type of filter lol. They always made sure we knew we could ask them anything and be honest about how we felt and what we thought. It’s why when I knew I was bi I had no fear of telling them or dating whoever I wanted. But I acknowledge that I was very lucky to have that and not everyone does. Nobody was inappropriate.

Wow. Your experience growing up in this kind of environment with the parents and adults and kids you had in your life is really amazing to me! That sounds incredibly cool. I mean, maybe it wasn't totally cool for you, but from the opposite side of things it seems like a really great experience to have as a kid, especially growing up as a bisexual kid. Did you ever experience any confusion really at all regarding your sexuality or sex? It doesn't sound like it, but I don't want to just assume... it's just hard to comprehend!

Your experience growing up lends so much more credence to the idea that it's a matter of confusion or misunderstanding regarding sex and gender that is a huge factor in dysphoria or cross-sex identification from developing. You were surrounded by LGBT people and culture and were told about just sex, and you never developed dysphoria or believed you weren't female (assuming again, please correct me if I'm wrong!).

Oh yeah older cousins will tell you EVERYTHING about everything lol

I'm the oldest grandchild on both sides of my family, I hope I haven't corrupted my little cousins lol 😂 Definitely not the best teacher

Im gonna pick a random day and use it as a flair just to see if you notice lol

Challenge gladly accepted 😁

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see transitioning is more like the calmative or antidepressant medication that is just intended to help a patient relax enough to attend therapy

That’s such an interesting view. I think I agree with you, it just never occurred to me to phrase it that way. But it makes sense.

Did you ever experience any confusion really at all regarding your sexuality or sex?

I didn’t paste all of this part but I’m super lucky to have had the childhood I had. I was surrounded by lgbt and creative people and it was wonderful!

I didn’t have any confusion, I just remember I developed crushes on two siblings and felt guilty for that lol. I had a crush on my friend, and then her brother. I think at first I thought I was a lesbian because the first attraction I felt was for a female, but I never felt weird about realizing I was bi because nobody around me really cared as long as they knew who I was spending my time with. I told my parents I was a lesbian, then that I was bi, both times they were just like, “okay. Thanks for telling us.”

My parents were weird about my brother going vegan, oddly enough lol.

I didn’t develop any type of dysphoria or anything, but I was shy about girls because I had absolutely zero gaydar. I felt much more insecure when it came to girls/women.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I see transitioning is more like the calmative or antidepressant medication that is just intended to help a patient relax enough to attend therapy.

Now this is an idea to really gnaw on fleur! Gonna be thinking bout this for days

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see transitioning is more like the calmative or antidepressant medication that is just intended to help a patient relax enough to attend therapy.

Now this is an idea to really gnaw on fleur! Gonna be thinking bout this for days

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I can see how someone may come to the idea that they should have been the opposite sex. Or as I mentioned to Peaking, wishing that they were, but I just don’t understand the idea of thinking that you are. I’d think the fact that you felt you were told you should have been a girl- if that were me maybe it would make me begin to agree that I should have been, could even make me wish it were so, but it would also be a constant reminder to me that I am not what everyone thinks I was meant to be, if that makes sense?

I can get behind trans people saying they felt they should have been born the opposite sex, and even saying they transitioned to get as close to that as possible. I don’t get how anyone can come to conclusion that they somehow just are something they had to drastically alter themselves to even resemble.

I do agree that there’s a difference between identifying as and with something. But I think it would still be identifying with the things you associate with the opposite sex/gender.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It seems easy for a child to believe they genuinely are, though, but maybe that's just me. I didn't have a reference other than superficial appearances (clothes, hair, grooming) for the difference between girls and boys, women and men, so there was no real reminder for me or reinforcement other than some adults trying to remind me that I was a boy. Children are really ignorant of much of the world due to the nature of human development, so magical thinking and that sort of behavior are common. So since I held that magical, little kid belief from so early for so long, that eventually when I did learn the difference and how I was definitively male, I couldn't just accept that because it undermined what I had grown up believing about myself on a fundamental level.

I'm not sure how people who feel they need to go to great lengths to pass understand they are the sex they identify as. I had always thought the whole point of transitioning was so one didn't have to try so hard to just live life. Not needing to really change much about myself to always pass was precisely even more evidence to me that of course I am supposed to be a woman.

Since I'm not a woman, I don't identify as a woman. I do identify with women, though, due to maybe seemingly shared commonalities attributed to sex (even if stereotypes, admittedly). Maybe identifying with something or someone then does lead to identifying as said thing or person? Or is that what you were saying?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It seems easy for a child to believe they genuinely are, though, but maybe that's just me

If nobody ever explains sex to them, yes. But people- literally everyone in the kid’s life- would have to bend over backwards to hide any evidence of sex existing

So since I held that magical, little kid belief from so early for so long, that eventually when I did learn the difference and how I was definitively male, I couldn't just accept that because it undermined what I had grown up believing about myself on a fundamental level.

Nobody ever explained sex to you as a kid? Not even just about your own body? I’m honestly just interested in a convo not trying to make a point or anything lol

Since I'm not a woman, I don't identify as a woman. I do identify with women, though, due to maybe seemingly shared commonalities attributed to sex (even if stereotypes, admittedly). Maybe identifying with something or someone then does lead to identifying as said thing or person? Or is that what you were saying?

What I’m saying is I think TW can connect with some women on some things. Twaniac pointed out in a thread that one of the posters who said they connected with girls as a kid was actually connecting with specific girls (girls who had similar interests), not just girls in general. I think TW can connect with any woman (or man) who shares similar interests. And possibly admittedly it’s likely more women will share certain interests that TW seem to generally cite as things they knew meant they were women, worded that horribly sorry. Can try to articulate better lol

My point is that I think TW can identify with their understanding of the expectations/roles associated with women, and that in all fairness it’s likely those expectations and roles may help them find friendships and connections with women and other TW or some gay men more easy to form than with other males. But I don’t think there’s really anything exclusive between only TW and women. I do get how TW may convince themselves that this means they identify with or as women, but it truly means they have similarities with some people, of either sex. Which is normal lol except for the conclusion that that means they aren’t the sex/gender they are. I think what I’m saying is that I understand how some TW can think they identify with or as women, but what they are identifying with or as is not actually relevant to being a woman

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If nobody ever explains sex to them, yes. But people- literally everyone in the kid’s life- would have to bend over backwards to hide any evidence of sex existing

True, I would think you're mostly right about that for sure

Nobody ever explained sex to you as a kid? Not even just about your own body?

No, not that I'm aware of. Maybe that isn't true, but I genuinely am unaware if they did. For context, I grew up an only child in the 90s in a rural US Midwest home in a very socially conservative environment without many people, let alone children, around. We didn't have a computer or the internet until after I was like 10 or 11, and we never had cable TV so there wasn't much opportunity to be exposed to that kind of learning.

My point is that I think TW can identify with their understanding of the expectations/roles associated with women, and that in all fairness it’s likely those expectations and roles may help them find friendships and connections with women and other TW or some gay men more easy to form than with other males. But I don’t think there’s really anything exclusive between only TW and women. I do get how TW may convince themselves that this means they identify with or as women, but it truly means they have similarities with some people, of either sex. Which is normal lol except for the conclusion that that means they aren’t the sex/gender they are. I think what I’m saying is that I understand how some TW can think they identify with or as women, but what they are identifying with or as is not actually relevant to being a woman

Well said, that might be the most accurate way to elucidate this: issues women face directly as a result of their sex might resemble some issues that transwomen face as well, but it wouldn't be for the exact same reason. For women, it's because of their biology, their sex, and for transwomen it's because of homophobia or misplaced misogyny, and maybe many if not most transwomen draw the conclusion that we're receiving what appears to be similar treatment and share what appears to be similar experiences, but they aren't for the same reason, so that's where transwomen mistakenly believe it is. That lack of recognition might be requisite to developing gender dysphoria in the first place, maybe.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That lack of recognition might be requisite to developing gender dysphoria in the first place, maybe

See that’s a great point thst never occurred to me lol

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It would make sense why GC and QT butt heads so so much on this stuff. If most trans people were capable of seeing things from the GC perspective, I think the 'illusion' would cease to exist and it's hard to imagine they would stay trans, or at least think of themselves and others as belonging to another sex or being sexless. Gender dysphoria seems to thrive on the misunderstanding, which is what the previous diagnosis of gender identity disorder highlighted. Part of it is our inaccurate or incomplete understanding of sex, sex role stereotypes and our own sex. I say 'our' as in trans people, I guess that's generalizing, but from my own perspective which I see as very warped I feel like that's maybe the case. But maybe that's totally off, too lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've seen that brought up before, because it gets to the crux of the issue: how do you know you are supposed to be that sex if you aren't that sex? And it seems like, based on my experience and what I've read/heard from others, that the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning. Perhaps some people are just being intentionally combative when addressing that sort of question, but maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The thing is, when you and peaking respond, I do get it. I don’t always agree, but I understand what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. The responses you both offer always acknowledge what gc or even people who aren’t gc but aren’t tras are always pointing out and you seem to be able to take women and our concerns/needs/feelings/differences into account. And that makes a huge difference in the quality of discussion as well as the ability to actually discuss anything at all.

But- and I don’t say this to disrespect any other posters here- you both come across as significantly more self aware and less ego driven (using ego in every sense of the word) than the other transwomen on the sub and the loudest of the online trans community. There’s a self awareness and societal awareness you both have that, in my experience a lot of transwomen from before (that “before” when this wasn’t a prevalent social and political discussion and TW and TM were allowed to be acknowledged as trans and not the sex/gender they transitioned to appear as) have that the woke trans community lacks. (I’m not trying to call either of you old lol, I always assumed the three of us are relatively close in age)

I understand why the woke trans community gets upset, but I think it’s because they know their logic is faulty and they’re defying fact. There’s hostility because you can’t convince everyone of something that just isn’t true. I know my comments can be cold and I can come across as if I don’t care (or apparently that I hate trans people…) but I do appreciate that if qt feels oppressed and rejected or invalidated by society it can’t feel good to constantly feel like you have to justify your sense of self to others, so I get the combativeness. The problem is that the issue is bigger than just a sense of self. It is impacting other people and their rights and safety, so they kind of do owe us (general society) an explanation that we can understand.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning.

Jane Clare Jones pointed out that the basic misunderstanding between genderists and the rest of society, particularly GC, is that for most people the words man, women, boy and girl refer to the physical sex of the body - but for genderists those same words refer to the sex stereotypes and sexist expectations associated with each sex - aka gender - and the ideas & "identity" that exist in the mind.

Unpicking "gender identity" even more, kids who develop gender dysphoria seem to grow up in settings where they are given the idea that there are two boxes of stereotypes - one labelled "girl," the other labelled "boy" - and that a fundamental task of childhood development & personality formation means deciding which box of stereotypes they as individuals prefer & feel most drawn to & in synch with. For whatever reason, they don't realize that most grownups don't fit either box, that they can pick & choose from the two boxes, or that the two boxes themselves can be ignored altogether - or smashed, stomped, set on fire and/or laughed at.

maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

I think you're getting to something profound by adding in the word "confusion" there. My sense is that a core issue for a lot of kids who develop "gender dysphoria" is that they've been raised without an understanding of sex, biology and human bodies in general, and through no fault of their own they are unfamiliar with and uncertain about what used to be called "the facts of life," "the birds & the bees" and just "the basics." I think this deprives kids of a grasp of, and solid grounding, in reality, including their own material reality - and leads to a sense of self that is both disembodied and shaky. And a core bewilderment.

IMO, a further disservice has been done to people with gender dysphoria is labelling it "gender dysphoria." Coz in that word pairing, no one knows what either "gender" or "dysphoria" really means, and when you put the two words together the meaning of each one becomes even more obscure. Rather than elucidate and clarify, the term "gender dysphoria" seems intended to mystify and muddy.

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this. Kids & young people are desperately trying to make sense of themselves & the world - and everyone yearns for a worldview based on as firm a foundation as possible. But maybe at some level, kids with GD have a niggling sense that something is off, that it doesn't compute, as it were. And this leads to a great deal of anxiety borne of, as you said, confusion. Indeed, borne of perplexity and bewilderment.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry, Mark--this is obviously beyond a late response, but something about what you wrote has been bugging me for a while:

Why do kids who mistake gender for sex feel compelled to make such a choice? Is it because they don't recognize themselves or see themselves in members of the same sex that they see being a girl, boy, woman or man as just roles that one can choose? It seems like that would make sense if a child didn't understand the concept of biological sex. But then I go back to wondering why they feel compelled to make a choice at all.

Something I was wondering about, too, is whether all or most children first understand the concept of sex only through gender, so they only see 'girl', 'boy', 'woman' and 'man' as roles. I'm thinking that that might be true for most young children at first, but then I'm wondering if the only reason most kids don't end up conflating sex and gender the way the ones who go on to believe they're supposed to be or they are the opposite sex, is because they just can relate to members of their own sex. Even if a child wasn't aware of the concept of biological sex for an extended time and only differentiated males and females based on gender (stereotypes, expectations), they still probably would not develop gender dysphoria or that sort of confusion if they were more gender conforming.

Do all kids make such a choice? Or just dysphoric/confused ones?

Is it just gender nonconformity and lack of understanding of sex as opposed to gender that makes these kids feel like they have to recognize themselves as the opposite sex?

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this

I think you might be right. There shouldn't be any reason for kids to continue to believe they are or are supposed to be the other sex once they are made aware of and understand sex because that undermines the recognition of the sexes only through gender and gender roles. Why would children hold on to such a shaky idea? Is it that they feel their world just doesn't make sense unless they do? It really does seem like a decision made out of some kind of desperation, and wow does that make me sad.

(Again, sorry, I know this is so late, but I just couldn't help but ask/share)