all 34 comments

[–]Penultimate_Penance 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness if it is so strong that it cripples the person who has it. Trans identity is a belief system. Like being a Christian or a Scientologist. A person can have crippling gender dysphoria and not subscribe to transgenderism.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for sharing! That makes sense about gender dysphoria. I guess I probably see trans as more separate from gender ideology or beliefs about transgenderism. Do you think the identity could be because of a mental illness, or do people choose that identity/belief system?

[–]Penultimate_Penance 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Mental illness can definitely have a strong influence on identity. There is an element of choice in it as well. There are a lot of teenage girls who feel the same way I did about their bodies who believe, because of that they must be trans and subscribe to gender ideology. There are others who understand that being a woman is just a fact about you, like being a natural brunette, x inches tall or brown eyed.

The people you associate with also have a profound influence on identity. If a teenage girl is surrounded by gender identitarians she is much more likely to identify as trans and pursue physical transition. People who grow up in a Muslim family are unsurprisingly more likely to be Muslim, Christian families to be Christian and so on.

What you believe about yourself and your sex will also strongly influence whether you identify as trans or gender nonconforming. Despite being exposed to so much sexism in life and from books I refused to believe that women were in any way inferior to men. I had no desire to be a man, since I did not see them as superior to me in any way. Quite a few genderists have an extremely sexist view of men and women which feeds into their gender identity. They often have negative beliefs about their own sex and positive beliefs about the opposite sex.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Adding to my response I see 3 main beliefs someone could potentially subscribe to if they have gender dysphoria:

  1. I have some traits that are stereotypically associated with the opposite sex therefore I'm a tomboy/gender nonconforming not like other girls/boys

  2. I have some traits that are stereotypically associated with the opposite sex therefore those beliefs about my sex are wrong and women/men can be masculine or feminine. Masculinity and femininity are bullshit and are not innate.

  3. I have some traits that are stereotypically associated with the opposite sex therefore I have the opposite sex gender identity and I am really a woman/man or neither on the the inside.

Then there is sex dysmorphia. People seem to go 2 routes belief wise. 1. Transexuals, they transitioned to be more comfortable with their bodies, but accept the reality of their sex.

  1. Transgenderists, they transitioned to be more comfortable with their bodies, but believe they are the opposite sex and/or they have an opposite sex soul/identity.

[–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Gender dysphoria is an insecurity. Transgender is gender nonconformity with a twist.

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transgender is gender nonconformity with a twist

This is my new favorite definition of transgender

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Goddamn lol

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I’d say dysphoria is a mental illness

Being trans-

It’s just literally physically having "transitioned"

I think Gender Identity and maybe some other term I can’t think of is the belief system. I’m hesitant to say that being trans is the belief system because not all trans people view being trans the same way.

I do however think that the ideology surrounding gender identity is very cult like. So maybe not a mental illness on its own but a mentality/ideology that seems to only be held by mentally ill people.

Id separate the mental health state of people who understand they are the sex they were born and have just altered their appearance drastically to resemble the opposite sex from people who believe transwomen are women/transmen are men/non binary is real. But both of those types of people can and do transition.

Basically, I think anyone who transitions has some level of mental illness, but I think the ones who believe TWAW or believe in sex spectrums and gender identity are more deeply mentally ill.

I know some people think you can be trans without transitioning or because you want to, I don’t agree. That’s why I separate the state of physically being trans from the mental stuff.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Being trans-

It’s just literally physically having "transitioned"

But what is "physically having transitioned"? Taking testosterone, getting your breasts removed, wearing your hair short and putting "he/him" on your social media and emails? Taking estrogen, growing your hair long, getting FFS, having factory-made sacs of silicone gel or saline solution surgically placed in the chest, demanding that others call you she/her?

Also, as I am sure you know, your definition of what being "trans" is has nothing in common with the position of all the trans/LGBTQ lobby organizations, gender therapists, medical practitioners, trans activists and many trans-identified people nowadays. They say that being trans "is just literally" the following: "identifying as" the opposite sex, claiming to be of neither sex or a combo of both sexes, or having a "gender identity" different to one's sex.

They say further that being trans is entirely internal and requires making no physical changes, lifestyle changes, costume changes, changes to identity documents, changes in relationships, etc - whether temporary or permanent. They say the only thing that should be needed for a person to be recognized as legitimately trans by others and by society, and for them to acquire the protected characteristic of trans legally where such exists, is a verbal self-declaration that the person is trans. Today, the belief that person must change anything about themselves in order to be trans is considered transphobic "gatekeeping."

I know some people think you can be trans without transitioning or because you want to, I don’t agree. That’s why I separate the state of physically being trans from the mental stuff.

I get your POV, but in turn I think we need to engage the positions that gender ideology proponents are widely in agreement with and are putting forward. Your personal definition of trans is not the definition being used as the basis for the profound changes that have occurred, and are occurring, in law, public policy, sports regulations, school regulations and social customs. It's also not what is being taught to children and adolescents.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don’t know how to explain the difference between someone saying they want to/intend to transition and someone who has begun or "completed" transition. Or between either of those people and someone who does neither. Like I feel like it’s pretty self explanatory so I don’t know how else to word it?

I think trans people can have any hair style and even people who aren’t trans can put pronouns in bios so Im referring to actually altering your body. To me- Im not going to take some dude who just says he trans as seriously as like- Blaire White or someone else. Clearly there will be people mid transition where it’s not apparent yet- if they are actively taking cross sex hormones and are on track to "medically transition"- yeah, to me, they’re trans.

Also, as I am sure you know, your definition of what being "trans" is has nothing in common with the position of all the trans/LGBTQ lobby organizations, gender therapists, medical practitioners, trans activists and many trans-identified people nowadays. They say that being trans "is just literally" the following: "identifying as" the opposite sex, claiming to be of neither sex or a combo of both sexes, or having a "gender identity" different to one's sex

Sure… but I dont take anything they say seriously so why would I take this seriously? I’m not basing it on identity any more than I would base who a woman is on identity. There’s criteria for what makes a woman a woman. Why shouldn’t there be for what makes someone actually trans, as opposed to someone who wants to transition? People who call themselves "cis" acknowledge a gender identity. They clearly aren’t trans. Gender identity isn’t enough to make someone trans. Per their own logic.

They say further that being trans is entirely internal and requires making no physical changes, lifestyle changes, costume changes, changes to identity documents, changes in relationships, etc - whether temporary or permanent. They say the only thing that should be needed for a person to be recognized as legitimately trans by others and by society, and for them to acquire the protected characteristic of trans legally where such exists, is a verbal self-declaration that the person is trans. Today, the belief that person must change anything about themselves in order to be trans is considered transphobic "gatekeeping."

And I disagree. Because that doesn’t make any sense. I’m not basing my understanding of a mental illness on what the mentally ill people and the people who coddle them want us to think and want to be true for personal reasons.

I get your POV, but in turn I think we need to engage the positions that gender ideology proponents are widely in agreement with and are putting forward. Your personal definition of trans is not the definition being used as the basis for the profound changes that have occurred, and are occurring, in law, public policy, sports regulations, school regulations and social customs. It's also not what is being taught to children and adolescents

The thing is, those changes shouldn’t be based on what they think it means to be trans- it should be based on actual transition. (Eta for clarity- Im not saying any changes should be made, I’m saying they shouldn’t even be allowed to just include anyone who claims "trans!" To be included in these proposed laws/policies to begin with). I do not think anyone should accept their wide ass umbrella of who is and can be considered trans. That’s a huge part of the problem today. Trans should be clear, woman should be clear, man should be clear, sex should be clear. And the only way to make it all clear is to actually be clear on what everything means.

The question wasn’t even about this- it was if we thought being trans was a mental illness or not and I said no because to me being trans is not mental, it’s (sometimes) the result of a mentality, but that you can have the mentality and not be trans. And some trans people can hold different beliefs and still be trans. (And that that mentality seems to be held almost exclusively by mentally ill people). Nothing you said disproves that? It just seems like you’re saying I should use their language and definitions even though accepting their bullshit in the first place is what caused all of these issues.

Eta- I understand that irl we have to deal with "trans" referring to this "umbrella" that includes anyone who doesn’t consider themselves "cis", Im just answering the post, and to me, regardless of who the trans community considers trans (again- they consider men women, why are we listening to them?), that’s my answer.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

To me- Im not going to take some dude who just says he trans as seriously as like- Blaire White or someone else.

The thing is, those changes [to law, public policy, social custom, etc] shouldn’t be based on what they think it means to be trans- it should be based on actual transition.

So do you think that someone like Blaire White should be in girls'/women's change rooms, loos locker rooms, hospital wards, refuges, prisons, sports? That if/when Blaire is ever in a dorm, shelter, nursing home, rehab facility, recovery program, hospital with double rooms, someone like Blaire should be placed with a woman as a roommate?

What if someone like Blaire became a home health aide or nurse, should girls or women requesting a female for intimate care have to accept such from the Blaire-like person because that person has factory-made spherical implants in the chest and is good at enacting stereotypes of "femininity"?

Trans should be clear, woman should be clear, man should be clear, sex should be clear. And the only way to make it all clear is to actually be clear on what everything means.

So what is your clear definition of "trans" then? Since you mentioned Blaire White as an example of someone whom you seem to think is sufficiently "trans," I can only assume you mean someone who tries to give the outward appearance of being the opposite sex by aping the most superficial, regressive, sexist, offensive stereotypes of the sex they say they desire to be, and who has extensive cosmetic surgeries to alter certain aspects of their appearance, yet nevertheless chooses to keep his dick and balls. Coz that's Blaire.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t think Blaire White should be in womens bathrooms lol

I wasn’t answering in reference to laws or anything like that.

I think a trans person is a person who transitions physically to present as the opposite sex, something I clearly stated in my first comment on this post. you’re assumption of what I meant by trans is correct and Im obviously well aware that White is trans since I used him as my example- in comparison to some random dude who hasn’t done anything to transition but claims to be trans. I do not think someone who just says they’re trans is trans anymore than I think a man who says he’s a woman is a woman.

A question was posed, I gave my answer and explained. I only answered what I considered mental illness. Why you’re dragging all of this into my answer- I don’t quite understand.

In my response to you, I was saying I think the policies they push for should be on the basis of people who are actually trans*, these other people shouldn’t be considered trans or included in these bills/policies whatever because they literally aren’t. They may be dysphoric, they may have a fetish, they may have some other mental illness. That doesn’t mean they are trans. How, logically, can someone be trans without transitioning? Not how they feel, how can they BE?

*That doesn’t mean I think the policies should be passed. It means I think those policies should only include actual people who have transitioned, not self ID "trans" people. I did not articulate that clearly perhaps, but I think you should know by now I dont want any men in female spaces regardless of whether they transitioned or not.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also- just because I don’t think Blaire White should be in female spaces doesn’t mean he won’t be allowed to be.

So… if BW is going to be allowed in regardless of how I or any other woman or girl may feel, I’d for sure like to at least know that at the very least, most men won’t be allowed that access.

This is why the distinction I’m making (and that tras want to erase) matters.

If you’re willing to accept the idea that anyone who cries trans is trans, how do you justify not accepting when TW claim to be women, or TM claim to be men?

Again, the beliefs that these people who haven’t and won’t transition have that allows them to actually think of themselves as trans are the same beliefs that many people who have/will/are in the process of transitioning accept and that many people who call themselves cis accept. So it’s not the being trans thats the mental illness. It’s the mentality. That’s my point.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It’s just literally physically having "transitioned"

Not all trans people transition.

I think the ones who believe TWAW or believe in sex spectrums and gender identity are more deeply mentally ill.

I am a surgically transitioned nonbinary person. I have an opinion from an old-school senior consultant psychiatrist that I have no signs of any mental disorder. You are welcome to believe what you like, but I offer myself as a data point in refutation of your views. It is worth noting that autism spectrum disorders are highly overrepresented in the trans community, perhaps at the level of 25%(?) of the trans population.

I think sex is binary* and immutable. *Except for intersex people, who comprise around 0.018% of the population, according to Leonard Sax.

Cult-like leftist trans activists can be fanatical ideologues, but I would hesitate to call them mentally ill. Would we call the deeply religious or political ideologues mentally ill? QAnon? Anyone else who disagrees with me? No doubt there is some correlation with mental disorders or abuse history but correlation does not prove causation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Somebody who doesn’t transition* but calls themselves trans still literally hasn’t transitioned…

That’s my point. There are many people who are mentally ill enough (or "woke" enough) to buy into the current mainstream trans rhetoric while not actually transitioning, some of whom consider themselves trans- Im saying just like a TW considers himself a woman but isn’t one, I don’t think someone who hasn’t done anything to transition is actually trans. I think being trans is the literal physical state and that’s why the dsm doesn’t classify it as a mental illness- it’s a physical, not mental, state. A technicality for sure, but I still think it’s a relevant difference.

I would absolutely call anyone who vehemently believes in multiple falsehoods even when there’s ample proof that their beliefs are false, and then tried to force those beliefs on everyone else, mentally ill. It’s not about agreement or disagreement- it’s about the refusal to accept fact based reality and the desperate "logic" offered to justify clinging to something that is obviously not true.

Eta- we can prove sex. We can prove non binary isn’t real, that TW aren’t women, and transmen aren’t men. Nobody can really prove the existence or lack of existence of any religious deity. So I’d say that people who buy into gender ideology are even more mentally ill than your examples. Because they deny proven reality.

If You believe a man can turn into a woman or just is one somehow because he says so- if you truly believe this, and aren’t just saying it to be woke, inclusive, or on "the right side of history", if you’ve had biology and anatomy explained to you and you still buy the BS, I do think there’s mental illness there somewhere.

I also think most allies and even most trans and NB people know their ideology is bogus.

*i dont mean full on bottom surgery transition, I mean at least hormones and whatever attempts at presenting as the opposite sex

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And frankly the fact that you actually think you’re non binary to me tells me you do in fact have a mental illness.

If You call yourself non binary because you like the label, I’d think differently. If You genuinely think you’re "non binary" then your therapist is incorrect in their assessment of you.

I honestly think anyone who "surgically transitions" ie alters a perfectly healthy body because their brain tells them it’s wrong (not just cosmetic surgery, but like trying to look like the opposite sex or eliminate your sexed traits- idk what you mean you’ve done) is mentally ill.

I also think a lot of mental health professionals are afraid to acknowledge that truth.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

DSM-IV certainly defined Gender Identity Disorder (and Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified for us nonbinary types) as mental disorders, and I was fine with that. DSM-5 unifies many of the concepts into Gender Dysphoria. There are still people who describe homosexuality as a mental illness; it was removed in DSM-II.

No one should be forcing their beliefs on anyone. I oppose ideology and encourage everyone to examine their beliefs.

The concept of gender identity seems to simplify explanations of various types of gender incongruence, as distinct from biological sex which we can measure. That said, everyone must remember that it is only a model, and just because it seems to explain things does not mean that it is a "real" thing. I have a physics background, and think of luminiferous aether as an example of a discarded model, and zero-point energy and dark matter where there is still no consensus.

My theory is that there is something like gender identity, analogous to sexual orientation, and both have strong roots in sexual dimorphism and evolutionary biology: the benefit of having these and them being strong is more important than their "accurate" alignment with reproductive goals in every case. A homosexuality and transgender identity could be described as spandrels.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t really know what point youre making with the DSM? My understanding is that being trans is not in the DSM- that’s all I said about it. Im not trying to be rude at all lol, honesty just wasn’t sure what point you’re making and I want to understand so I can respond. What I was inferring is that being trans is not in the DSM, but the mental health issues that most trans people seem to have are. Which is why I said being trans is not in and of itself a mental illness, but that the people who are trans are mentally ill.

IMO, Gender identity is stereotypes or the rejection of stereotypes or it’s just a phrase people seem to throw out when they can’t explain or answer how they identify as something they physically aren’t. I have never been given an explanation that wasn’t either "IDK I just know" or " insert gender stereotypes/associations/expectations"

My whole thing is just- gender identity is meaningless to anyone but the person who has it. Sex doesn’t change or go away because someone identifies as something other than their sex. Sex is what actually matters. Sex is what should be protected and considered over any gender identity.

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I pretty much agree with you. I was going to say that all forms of gender dysphoria are a mental illness, but thinking about adolescent and teen girls who are trying to escape oppressive, sexist expectations and treatment--is it an illness to be so distraught as to want to escape that? Or is it only pathological if one would see and seek transition as the solution to that problem? I sort of feel like it both is and isn't an illness, or it's a kind of distress masquerading as transsexualism or transgenderism, so it's labeled as gender dysphoria.

Since people can be trans in so many different ways, I wouldn't think it's necessarily a mental illness. Like Mark pointed out, a person just could say they are trans because they are bored or it seems fun or they want to be silly or cool or just try something new, so being trans in a scenario like that doesn't seem like it would be a mental illness necessarily, though perhaps one might wonder why anyone would jump to being/becoming trans for uncomplicated reasons. Or I might, at least.

Some manifestations of being trans seem outright pathological, but some don't. Being trans because one experiences gender dysphoria of any degree seems like that would mean that manifestation of being trans is pathological, whether very mildly expressed or more extreme.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Idk the best way to word this, but i wonder if maybe all of the examples you gave wouldn’t be indicative of some type of mental health issue, even if not a specific mental illness?

Meaning the woman/girl who wants to transition to avoid misogyny: maybe she doesn’t have dysphoria or actually "identify as a male/man", but maybe she has some type of trauma or PTSD or something? Otherwise why go to such lengths when there are less extreme routes?

The people who think it would be fun or silly- idk. It just seems hard to believe that anyone mentally sound would think that being trans is fun or silly lol

I do think some people claim to be trans or some part of thaw TQ+ as a way to find a community for themselves or to feel special- and maybe loneliness/low self esteem aren’t mental illnesses but they certainly take a toll on overall mental health. And again, anyone going to the extreme of transition to gain a sense of community or feel special about themselves doesn’t come across as mentally healthy lol

I also think it’s "trendy" and in people’s faces more than ever. I think mentally impressionable or vulnerable people (particularly, it seems, adolescents and people on the spectrum-the autism spectrum to be clear, etc) are also the ones that seem to be identifying as trans a lot more lately. I don’t know that I think that’s mental illness so much as impressionable/vulnerable minds getting sucked into something they don’t fully understand.

Like even if there’s not a mental illness to diagnose, there’s still people dealing with homophobia (internal and external) that transition- Im exhausted and actually forgot where I was going with this lmao but basically I guess I just can’t think of a scenario where someone would transition or want to transition without there being some factor heavily impacting their mental health- aside from impressionable and or vulnerable people who are influenced or find some sort of comfort or something from identifying with the trans community. Although- not every adolescent or autistic person who is exposed to (no negative connotation intended) to trans ideology finds an identity within it or even agrees with it, so what’s going on in the lives of the ones who do? Maybe there’s no commonality, maybe there is? Idk.

I know my comment maybe seems like I disagree but I think I agree? Idk. I had a point to make but it lost me. But since I already typed all of this, here ya go lol

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry to be so slow to respond, ugh what a week...

You know, I think that's a really good overall point (I think I got what you were getting at! Or I'm telling myself so lol), like even reasons that don't appear directly related to a specific mental health issue are reasons borne of psychological distress or dysfunction. Maybe incomplete understanding is like the one unifying reason not necessarily due to mental dysfunction or distress, like you mention about impressionable and vulnerable populations.

Maybe this will seem like I'm reversing what I said (and maybe I am) but if it isn't borne of mental illness, but rather just erroneous and ill-informed conclusions, then would it ever become a mental illness? Or at what point would it become a mental illness?

Like being a child or adolescent who makes that sort of conclusion, and it's not derived from mental illness but ignorance, then would it only become a mental illness if the child or adolescent eventually learned the truth but still felt the way they felt, just because that's all they knew? I suppose it's a psychological dysfunction of some kind still, right?

Sorry, I'm asking way more questions than answering!! I just originally thought the answer was more clear, but you and others bring up a lot of good points making me reevaluate how I am seeing things. So I'm really glad you shared everything you typed, thank you! 😉

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like the point where an adult commits to transition is when it becomes a mental illness? Like once someone explains biology and reality and you refuse to accept it or you do accept it but still choose to transition- you’ve chosen to step past reality and fact to transition or you are so dysphoric that despite accepting the truth you still know you need to transition?

(To be clear- there is no judgment or anything when I say mental illness, it’s just the wording that feels accurate to me)

As far as the kids stuff- it seems like child abuse to not properly inform kids about biology and what it really means to transition. Idk if for children it’s mental illness or "programming" (that sounds so conspiracy tin foil of me lol). I don’t mean intentionally programming but it’s being pushed and spread so much that it feels like programming for lack of a better word. Like if you instill in a kid that gender identity is real and you may have to transition because of yours, are they mentally ill or are they brain washed?

I didn’t word this well because I wanted to reply before the day got away from me lol.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, the distress experienced by someone with a mismatch between gender identity and biological sex. Transgender identity is part of normal human variation, analogous to homosexual orientation or lefthandedness.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

How is homosexuality or left handedness an identity? They’re descriptors. Is a woman who has no sexual attraction to females still homosexual if she says she identifies as homosexual?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Clearly most of us are only right handed because we identify as such.

I personally identify as ambidextrous.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Tried identifying as left handed to sew..attached finger to seam. Now I identify as a sweater.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I am saying that these things are not choices. Sexual orientation and handedness seem to be innate. I think gender identity is similar in that people are not choosing it, they are identifying the thing they already have but that no one else can see.

[–]HouseplantMaybe women who are afraid of men should stay home? #feminist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How can someone identify with something they are not though? How do they have the ‘woman/man gender’ if they are not given it via socialisation, and it’s not physically real?

Also, why don’t most other people have any gender identity? What causes one in the first place, let alone one that doesn’t correspond to any experience or to the physical self?

What is your understanding of identity beyond gender?

[–]Penultimate_Penance 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some people believe they have psychic powers. Some people believe they are the next coming of Christ. Some people believe they have souls. Some men believe they are women. Why should I take any of these people seriously? What evidence do you have that gender identity is real other than self declaration?

Also how on earth would it be possible for a man have an inkling of a clue what it feels like to be a woman? God and every religion on earth is more plausible than a man experiencing what it is literally impossible for him to experience.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

My understanding is what I call the "dynamic component model." That's how I navigate it.

"Mental illness" can be sort of another way of side stepping what exactly is going on. It depends on what you mean by mental illness.

By component I mean aspects of gendered behaviour like expression, body image and attraction.

By dynamic I mean the different combinations have dynamic results rather than perfect averages.

[–]nausicaa 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I gotta say, I think your perspective is really interesting & it's certainly given me food for thought. Thank you.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks. It's not a settled topic so everyone gets to comment and have a take.

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It took a bit for me to understand what you are saying, but I think maybe now I do (sorry, I'm often a bit dense!)

Is mental illness included in your dynamic component model? I think I understand what you mean by that, like what the concept is that you are formulating, and it seems like it would be, but you're saying not always and not entirely--Is that what you are saying? I'm really sorry, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I just want to be sure I understand you

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ha yeah no my ideas, are just my ideas and theories. I don't think "sex" "gender" are settled topics so we can all speculate. I'd probably need to write an essay to explain all my thoughts.

I'd relate gender issues to homosexual issues. At least the appearance in societies is similar. A constant pattern, of a small percentage, that relates to gender norms.

I think "gender divergence" and "homosexuality" are related. An extension of "gender" and "sexuality" are deeply related.

How do we categorize homosexuality?

I don't think it's completely a spandrel.

It's so common, so pervasive, so regular in pattern in nature I think it might be more like a basic DNA error checking function of sexual reproduction. More like a side product of the code that keeps the code healthy, in a population.

It would be interesting to see what the lives of mammals that have no homosexuality are like.

It might also be repurposed by evolution in different ways. Nature is like that.

Would that be called a mental illness?

Psychopathy is a recurrent pattern in human behaviour, sometimes it is advantage, sometimes it is a hindrance. It appears in a competitive equilibrium with other behaviours. Is it a disorder? Only when it becomes a problem for an individual or a society.

Regarding gender "component." Possibly breaking down gender into components like gender expression, orientation, physical aspects.

I know that sounds like the dreaded ginger bread person of GC nightmares but the components seem to manifest in society. They are there. We are only debating what they mean.

How many components are there? I don't know. Does that sound like a weak aspect? Yes. But they patterns remain even if I can't name them all. I'd limit to as few as possible.

For instance gender expression covers lots of things. It varies by society but the pattern remains. I think gender expression is likely to effectively be "sexual display in humans." Sexual display is super common in animals. Especially where both sides exhibit sexual choice. Both sexes "peacock."

If someone has one cross gender component they are more likely to have others.

Regarding the "dynamic." I mean that the mix of cross gender elements does not create a perfect average.

So attraction to men is a natural component in women. The same component can appear in men. However males have a component that makes them more sexually driven than women. On average. So the androphilia does not express, on average, in exactly the same way.

There are women that are as sexually driven as men but it's rarer in women. But straight women are a larger percentage.

Similarly the female gender expression component in a man might be expressed differently than in a woman. Even if there is some overlap. The mixture of components creates non average forms.

lol but I would say that as a crossdresser. I have to rationalise things somehow, everyone does.

Here's another component. Romantic feelings. People really do report a difference between sexual feelings for a sex and romantic feelings for a sex. It exists outside of trans theory. Again a small minority but it does appear.

Does that make sense?