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[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (268 children)

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

Or someone who appears to be a trans woman?

Huh? These questions show you believe women can always, usually or frequently tell when males are in women's restrooms, no matter how those males identify or present. This stands in stark contrast to the standard QT party line, which is that none of us can ever tell.

The fact that you asked about

a trans woman in the women's restroom

And

someone who appears to be a trans woman

In the next breath also is an open acknowledgment that there's no way for women to know if a male is "genuinely trans" or not.

Genderbender, I hate to break it to you, but the questions you've posed would cause many to accuse you of transphobia.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You are so consistently the best

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (59 children)

The fact that you refer to trans women as "males" will more likely cause people to accuse you of transphobia.

Anyway, Keira Bell is a detransitioned woman and I can understand how how someone like her in appearance and voice could be mistaken for a trans woman.

Also I think its obvious I'm referring to trans women who don't pass.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you really think we care about being called "transphobic" when we know that anything and everything is "transphobic" for QT? Imo, the only real thing to worry about is what may follow to such ridiculous and meaningless accusations, e.g. death and rape threaths, doxxing, firing, violence. But the word itself? No, really.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

The fact that you refer to trans women as "males" will more likely cause people to accuse you of transphobia.

Yeah, so? I've been called worse; and I can take it. It's you I was talking about. I thought appearing transphobic is something you'd want to avoid at all costs, and being accused of transphobia is something you might be concerned about.

Tellingly, you didn't address any of my points. Instead, you immediately brought up Keira Bell and tried to make it seem like the issue you raised is whether

someone like her in appearance and voice could be mistaken for a trans woman.

Which is ridiculous. Look at Bell's face, hands, feet, body shape, bone structure and the way Bell moves and walks.

Keira Bell is also totally beside the point in this particular convo, which you started. Because you specifically asked

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

Or someone who appears to be a trans woman?

Now you say:

I think its obvious I'm referring to trans women who don't pass.

But I thought passing didn't matter? That trans people don't owe it to the world to do anything to change their appearance to try to pass as the opposite sex. Because everyone is just supposed to believe that trans people are whatever sex they say they are.

Also, since you brought up "passing": who decides who "passes"? Most males who identify as trans think and insist that they pass, but many female people like me disagree. Whose perception do you think should win out here?

The central point remains: the questions you raised are a tacit admission that you believe women (who are GC) can always, usually or frequently tell when males are in women's restrooms, no matter how those males identify or present. This goes against the fundamental part of the QT creed which says that none of us can ever tell because it's impossible for anyone to figure out if adult and post-pubescent males are actually male without "looking in their pants" and doing DNA tests.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

Yeah, so? I've been called worse; and I can take it. It's you I was talking about. I thought appearing transphobic is something you'd want to avoid at all costs, and being accused of transphobia is something you might be concerned about.

I have multiple reddit accounts and on one of them I used to regularly post on r/gendercynical a few years back and no one ever accused me of transphobia. I have never once been accused of transphobia in my life.

Which is ridiculous. Look at Bell's face, hands, feet, body shape, bone structure and the way Bell moves and walks.

There are people who are assigned male at birth with the same features.

But I thought passing didn't matter?

Passing ultimately doesn't matter but a passing trans woman will of course not be questioned in the woman's restroom so in this context it's relevant.

Also, since you brought up "passing": who decides who "passes"? Most males who identify as trans think and insist that they pass, but many female people like me disagree. Whose perception do you think should win out here?

My question is ultimately referring to anyone who is perceived by GC as a trans woman. Some trans woman do pass, like Jazz Jennings, Laverne Cox and MJ Rodriguez. Caitlyn Jenner doesn't pass but that's just my perception.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I saw Laverne Cox in person once. Seeing someone in 3 dimensions in the flesh is very different to seeing them in a still photo or on screen. IRL, I don't think Cox passes at all.

When photographed standing alone in a still shot, like in the famous TIME magazine cover, or when Cox is filmed or taped alone in a position where Cox isn't moving around too much, like in the recent video Cox did promoting a project on women's history, maybe a few people here and there might think Cox passes for a second or two. But when seen amongst other people, and especially when seen next to or near adult human females, Cox stands out like a proverbial sore thumb.

Cox is huge, with very broad shoulders, a very large head, giant hands and feet. Even when Cox is wearing the usually big head of store-bought, teased-up hair grown by impoverished, downtrodden girls and women in the third world, Cox's skull and the way Cox's head sits on Cox's neck are unmistakable tells that Cox is male - especially when Cox is seen in profile or partial profile rather than straight on from the front. Then when Cox gets moving on Cox's feet, there is no way anyone on earth would think that Cox has the gait, stride or foot plant of a female person.

I say none of this as diss on Cox. It's just that evolution has caused the males and females of our species to develop innumerable physical features that make it easy for most people to tell the sex of adolescents and adults pretty much instantly on first sight without any or much conscious thought. Due to evolution, our female socialization growing up, and years of lived experience always having to be on the alert, most women are really, really good at instantaneously sizing up and sussing out the sex of the adolescents and adults we encounter. Our safety depends on this skill.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

“Some trans women do pass, like Jazz Jennings, Laverne Cox and MJ Rodriquez.”

Have you never seen any of these people? None of them pass at all.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Jazz Jennings and Laverne cox do not pass in any situation.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (11 children)

If I didn't know they were trans I wouldn't be able to tell they are trans just by looking at them or hearing them.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Wait, but isn't Laverne Cox that huge dude who appears in a well-known picture where he is standing next to a short woman who is about half his height? If so, there is no way he "pass", even if he weren't a celebrity. And I know you'll point out that there are some very tall women too, but they are rare. Laverne Cox's height alone should draw enough attention to himself that anyone who met him would notice his other male features later.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Cox is 5′ 11 so she isn't super tall and tall cis women aren't rare. I know a few of them.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Let's use real data. According to this height percentile calculator, a 5 feet 11 inches man is taller than 77.07% of adult males from the US. In constranst a 5 feet 11 inches woman is taller than 99.88% of adult females from the US. So, I stand by what I said: Laverne Cox stands out because of his height.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

OK, but Cox uses she/her pronouns and everyone should respect that.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not just Cox's height, though. Cox is large all over. Large head, shoulders. Just a big person who tends to dwarf a lot of other people. Men as well as women, but especially the women.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/actress-laverne-cox-and-her-mother-gloria-cox-attend-the-news-photo/614477874

https://www.zimbio.com/photos/Laverne+Cox/Elliot+Page/LV9bDS2XqIA/25th+Annual+GLAAD+Media+Awards+Backstage

https://m.imdb.com/name/nm2914715/mediaviewer/rm2887365377?context=default

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-and-rita-moreno-attend-the-13th-annual-outfest-news-photo/865258976?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-and-rosario-dawson-attend-tribeca-tv-festivals-news-photo/1038129590?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/pictured-laverne-cox-and-rosanna-arquette-news-photo/1006191860?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/sarah-jessica-parker-and-laverne-cox-attend-the-planned-news-photo/953564194?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/trudie-styler-and-laverne-cox-attend-the-2017-outfest-los-news-photo/816110678?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-and-marlee-matlin-attend-the-academy-museum-of-news-photo/1345723686?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/lisa-kudrow-laverne-cox-and-dan-bucatinsky-attend-the-who-news-photo/968046890?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/adrienne-bailon-laverne-cox-and-jeannie-mai-attend-the-news-photo/854596658?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/actresses-elizabeth-mclaughlin-gabrielle-carteris-awkwafina-news-photo/1072209364?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/actresses-gabrielle-carteris-laverne-cox-and-awkwafina-news-photo/1072209258?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-and-maxine-waters-attend-families-belong-news-photo/988397030?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/todays-guest-include-laverne-cox-and-meghan-mccain-on-news-photo/457233328?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/cupp-and-jason-biggs-guest-co-host-kate-hudson-and-emmy-news-photo/452546272?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/netflix-chief-content-officer-and-co-ceo-ted-sarandos-and-news-photo/1392865875?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/co-ceo-and-chief-content-officer-at-netflix-ted-sarandos-news-photo/1392853807?adppopup=true

https://www.glaad.org/blog/listen-your-children-access-hollywood-speaks-laverne-coxs-mother-gloria-backstage-glaadawards

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwayne-johnson-and-laverne-cox-attend-the-peoples-choice-news-photo/1357819947?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-abd-jussie-smollett-attend-the-26th-annual-news-photo/472808126?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/co-ceo-and-chief-content-officer-at-netflix-ted-sarandos-news-photo/1392844906?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/jimmy-kimmel-live-airs-every-weeknight-at-11-35-p-m-est-and-news-photo/614699128?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/darren-criss-and-laverne-cox-attend-the-25th-annual-screen-news-photo/1090492998?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/actor-wilson-cruz-and-laverne-cox-celebrate-at-beverly-news-photo/965870886?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/news-photo/1095510162?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/if-it-aint-burke-dont-fix-it-episode-405-pictured-laverne-news-photo/514345636?adppopup=true

[–]Juniperius 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Have you watched Orange is the New Black? Laverne Cox towers over all the women, he isn't shaped at all like them, and he's got the voice and mannerisms of a "flaming" gay man. There is nothing the slightest bit woman-like about him.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And yet hundreds, thousands, of other people were able to at a glance.

How come you answer this but not me asking if you thought we’d be starting fights or attacking the men in question.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have multiple reddit accounts and on one of them I used to regularly post on r/gendercynical a few years back and no one ever accused me of transphobia. I have never once been accused of transphobia in my life.

So? If you posted points you've made on this thread on social media sites frequented by TRAs, I suspect they'd call you transphobic in a flash.

Passing ultimately doesn't matter

Then why are you making such a big deal about it? You seem to divide TW into two groups based on your own personal assessments of whether they pass, as you demonstrate here:

Some trans woman do pass, like Jazz Jennings, Laverne Cox and MJ Rodriguez. Caitlyn Jenner doesn't pass but that's just my perception.

Seems you view Jennings, Cox and Rodriguez as having a more valid and legitimate claim to call themselves TW than Jenner does. That's transphobic because it runs counter to the QT commandment that says trans people are whomever and whatever they say they are.

Why do you give your own perceptions more credence than Jenner's claims? Why do you count your own perceptions at all in the case of Jenner or any other TW? According QT and trans dogma, not to believe the claims made about themselves by anyone who calls themselves trans is transphobic.

Moreover, to continue to have and to place trust in your own perceptions of TW when those perceptions cause you to regard some TW in ways that aren't exactly in synch with how they see themselves and they have said they want to be seen by others is not just deeply transphobic - it's arrogant and oppressive.

Your assessments that certain TW pass and others don't are transphobic and oppressive also because you are judging TW based on whether their outward appearance as you perceive it lives up to superficial aesthetic standards that you hold, but which the TW you are being judgmental toward might not hew to. In fact, the TW whom you declare "doesn't pass" might not just disagree with and reject the aesthetic standards you are judging them by - they might experience those standards as harmful and negating of their identities. A true ally would not be so judgy. A true ally would pay no attention whatsoever to how any/all TW appear in any circumstance. A true ally would never, ever have the nerve to believe her own eyes if those eyes spot even a glimmer of evidence that flies in the face of the dogma that all trans people are exactly who/what they claim to be and all TW are women.

In case it's not crystal clear: I am not saying that in my opinion some of the views you have expressed on this thread are transphobic. I'm just pointing out that according to QT and gender dogma they are.

a passing trans woman will of course not be questioned in the woman's restroom

How on earth do you know this?

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have multiple reddit accounts and on one of them I used to regularly post on r/gendercynical a few years back and no one ever accused me of transphobia. I have never once been accused of transphobia in my life.

Sorry, but I find this very hard to believe. I mean, it's the internet: people argue for dumb stuff like the color of a dress, misunderstandings happens (and what someone intended to be an obvious sarcasm, others take it seriously), and sometimes people make stuff up for whatever reason, including just for trolling. But you are tellling me you are active in online groups surrounded by vindictive people who are quick to take offense at reality and who are changing the rules all the time, and yet you've never been told you said something "transphobic? And we know you hold some opinions that some QT would find deeply transphobic like the fact you would only date post-op "transmen", and yet you've never been told you hold some "problematic beliefs", really?

[–]penelopekitty 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Keira Bell would never be mistaken for a trans woman. She is very obviously a woman.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

How do you know? Even Ovatit can't always tell someone's birth sex. For instance, one thread Why are many gay men prominent TRAs?, Chase Strangio was listed as a gay man.

There's ACLU Lawyer Chase Strangio, currently dead set on ensuring males can play in women's sports, resolving the nonexistent epidemic of murders of trans women, promoting "sex work", and other such noble pursuits in the name of human rights.

OP edited her post after others pointed out Strangio is a trans man.

There is another post which I couldn't find but someone asked if Jeanette Jennings (Jazz's mom) was a trans woman. Another user replied no she just has a large nose.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

Don't you understand that meeting someone in person is a complete different experience than seeing them in a picture? And pictures can be filtered, being in taken in convenient angles and lighting, etcetera. Also, those users may have made a guess based in Chase Strangio and Jeanette Jennings's words or behaviour.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

Don't you understand that meeting someone in person is a complete different experience than seeing them in a picture? And pictures can be filtered, being in taken in convenient angles and lighting, etcetera.

Yes I understand. I still believe some trans people are indistuinguishable from cis people of the same gender.

Also, those users may have made a guess based in Chase Strangio and Jeanette Jennings's words or behaviour.

So you can tell someone's sex assigned at birth by their words and behavior? I thought GCs were against sex stereotypes?

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I thought GCs were against sex stereotypes?

No. Trends in a patriarchal society are measurable and provable. They are consistent with centuries of misogynistic tradition of stomping on women and treating them as subhuman. Pretending that everything is fair and peachy and egalitarian is a gaslighting load of horseshit.

Gendered socialisation that we are all subject to from birth and receive against our will based on our sex affects our words and behaviour. This shouldn't even be controversial, and has been established over and over and over again in studies. Pretending that this is not the case is, simply put, lying through your teeth. Or are you going to whine about this being misandrist, and then proceed to explain these discrepancies by the fact that men are simply biologically predisposed to beating, killing and oppressing women because lulz boys will be boys? (except trans men apparently)

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

No. Trends in a patriarchal society are measurable and provable.

I agree that trends are measurable and provable. It is proven from numerous studies that women are more supportive of trans rights than men.

According to a PPRI study, 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women. The same study found that 68% of women would feel somewhat or very comfortable with having a close friend who is transgender, compared to 57% of men. That's a significant difference! 52% of women say they would feel somewhat or very comfortable if their child came out as transgender, compared to 44% of men.

A poll found that 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared tp 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

There is a clear observable and provable trend that women are more likely to support the trans rights than men. Do any poll with equal numbers of random cis men and women and I will bet my life savings women will be more supportive of trans rights than men.

Trans men are men. While I hate the phrase "boys will be boys" because it is almost always used to excuse bad behavior, if I were to use that phrase, trans boys would be included under "boys" unless I specified "cis boys."

[–]Juniperius 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The polls you cite are invalid, because the people being polled are being lied to by omission. In order for any poll about trans issues to be valid, the people being polled must be informed that approximately 85% of transwomen choose to keep their penises and use them sexually, and that a large majority of transwomen are attracted to women. If the polls were honest about these facts, I can guarantee that the outcomes would be very different

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm sure even if all the participants were informed that 85% of trans women keep their penises and use them sexually, women would still be more likely to support trans rights than men. That's the point.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

So you can tell someone's sex assigned at birth by their words and behavior? I thought GCs were against sex stereotypes?

I cannot speak for others, I can only make guesses about what they may think, you know? You keep sharing random quotes from Ovarit and asking us to justify or explain them as if we all are a hivemind. But, anyway, some possible answers may be:

  1. Because people don't always live up to their own ideals.

  2. Because being against sex-based stereotypes doesn't mean you have to deny the reality that there are observable trends in how women and men behave. Humans make assumptions based on trends about all kind of things all the time. It's hard-wired on us because in order to survive in the distant past we had to decide in an instant if, for example, that big and scary lion over there was a threat. Getting right of generalizations may not be possible, but that doesn't mean we cannot strive for a fairer society or challenge plain baseless ideas like, for instance, "men are the rational ones, women are the emotional ones".

  3. Because some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism.

But speaking about sex-based stereotypes...

Yes I understand. I still believe some trans people are indistuinguishable from cis people of the same gender.

Could you explain what do you mean by this? What does make two people be the same "gender" if not sex-based stereotypes? If self-identification alone, as you have told us, makes a woman how "transwoman" can be indistinguishable from "cis women"? If self-identifation alone makes a woman, how can a "transwoman" "pass" or not?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

  1. Because people don't always live up to their own ideals.

  2. Because being against sex-based stereotypes doesn't mean you have to deny the reality that there are observable trends in how women and men behave. Humans make assumptions based on trends about all kind of things all the time. It's hard-wired on us because in order to survive in the distant past we had to decide in an instant if, for example, that big and scary lion over there was a threat. Getting right of generalizations may not be possible, but that doesn't mean we cannot strive for a fairer society or challenge plain baseless ideas like, for instance, "men are the rational ones, women are the emotional ones".

  3. Because some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism.

#1 I can understand. #3 I dont understand why some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism. Every study on trans issues finds that women are more supportive of transgenderism than men.

For instance a PPRI study found that 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women. According to a poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared tp 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

This brings us to point #2. The observable trends show that women are more supportive of transgenderism than men. So if they were acting on observable trends then they would know women are more likely to be advocates of transgenderism than men. But since they deny that they are obviously acting on stereotypes and their own ideas, not observable trends.

Last year my sister and I (both cis women) overheard our dad misgender Rachel Levine while talking on the phone with his brother. As soon as the conversation was finished, we called him out on it and insisted he use "she" for Rachel Levine. He kept telling us that Rachel Levine is a "he" and is a man. My dad is a white, straight, cis, able-bodied and middle class male, basically he fits the definition of "privileged" in the social justice context except for the fact that hes not Christian. We are Jewish. I am a disabled woman. My dad is not supportive of the trans community and its one reason I don't often interact with him.

Women, or people who were assigned female at birth can absolutely be fierce advocates of transgenderism, including those of other marginalized identities like POC or disabled women.

Could you explain what do you mean by this? What does make two people be the same "gender" if not sex-based stereotypes? If self-identification alone, as you have told us, makes a woman how "transwoman" can be indistinguishable from "cis women"? If self-identifation alone makes a woman, how can a "transwoman" "pass" or not?

Gender is how you identify yourself. My gender is female. I share a gender/sex with Oprah, Laverne Cox, Beyonce, MJ Rodriguez, Rihanna, Jazz Jennings, Kim Kardashian and Taylor Swift. I do not share a sex with Lebron James and Elliot Page.

Some trans women who take hormones and some pass to the point where you wouldn't be able to tell she is trans by looking or at her or hearing her voice. There is no need to use quotation marks.

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender is how you identify yourself. My gender is female. I share a gender/sex with Oprah, Laverne Cox, Beyonce, MJ Rodriguez, Rihanna, Jazz Jennings, Kim Kardashian and Taylor Swift. I do not share a sex with Lebron James and Elliot Page.

Wait, are you now claiming that gender and sex are the same thing?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For instance a PPRI study found that 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women.

LOL, that PPRI survey you keep trotting out is now three years out of date.

Since early June 2019 when that survey was done, a great deal of information about the negative consequences of opening up female spaces to males based on male gender identity claims has come to light. This information has caused many people who want to "be kind" to people who identify as trans to have second thoughts about the wisdom of throwing all caution to the winds and granting males unfettered access to female spaces so long as they claim to "identify as" or "feel like" women/girls. I don't know exactly where public opinion on the matter of restroom access is now, but I know that a poll from three years ago can't be relied to reflect current thinking.

According to a poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared tp 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

This second poll you cite is a Politico/Morning Consult online poll done March 6-8, 2021 - a full year before Lia Thomas won a women's NCAA national swimming title at the USA championships. Again, public opinion - and the views of sports policy makers - seem to have changed substantially since then.

A Gallup poll of Americans done two months later, in mid-May 2021, found that 72% of men and 53% of women thought that athletes should play in the sports category of their "birth gender," which presumably was taken to mean their sex.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/350174/mixed-views-among-americans-transgender-issues.aspx

Another poll conducted in June 2022 by The Washington Post and University of Maryland found only 3 in 10 Americans think males who identify as transgender should be allowed to participate in girls' and women's sports. A majority, 55%, said they were opposed to allowing males who identify as girls compete in girls' high school sports. Nearly 60% said they opposed to allowing males who identify as women compete in women's sports at the college and professional levels.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/madelinehalpert/2022/06/14/only-3-in-10-americans-support-trans-athletes-participation-in-female-sports-poll-finds/?sh=5fce3bab26cf

One of the reasons for the disparities in the figures is the way the questions are worded and framed/asked.

Women currently participating in elite-level sports are even more strongly opposed to allowing males to use gender identity claims to horn in on female competition.

In April 2022, the Cyclistes Professionnels Associés (CPA), which represents men’s and women’s professional bike riders, said it had sought the opinions of its female members before making representations to cycling’s governing body, the UCI, about "trans inclusion" policy.

“The CPA women ran a survey a few months ago and over 92 per cent did not agree with [male] trans athletes racing in the women’s peloton,” Marion Clignet, the French triple world champion track cyclist, is quoted as saying by The Telegraph.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nine-tenths-of-female-cyclists-dont-want-to-race-against-trans-women-according-to-survey-d2nhxkn9v

The new transgender and XY DSD inclusion policy recently released by FINA and its supporting documents show the views agreed upon by world-renowned experts that FINA assembled and consulted over the past year in the areas of sports performance, sports physiology, sports law and policy, and international human rights law and policy. FINA also consulted hundreds of swimmers, and paid particular attention to the views of female swimmers - a very different tack taken to the approach of the IOC, which has repeatedly frozen female athletes out of the involvement in decisions about opening up women's competition to males based on their gender identity claims.

I suggest you take the time watch FINA's video presentation explaining its new policy to find out more. It's an interesting presentation. From circa 1:46: https://youtu.be/tiujU5nUq6A?t=6399

As for this:

Last year my sister and I (both cis women) overheard our dad misgender Rachel Levine while talking on the phone with his brother. As soon as the conversation was finished, we called him out on it and insisted he use "she" for Rachel Levine. He kept telling us that Rachel Levine is a "he" and is a man. My dad is a white, straight, cis, able-bodied and middle class male, basically he fits the definition of "privileged" in the social justice context

Oh c'mon. That anecdote you have told several times on various threads about how you and your sister once overheard your father call Rachel Levine "he" and a man and then you bravely "called him out on it" and insisted he use language that you dictated is just pointless virtue signaling which simply goes tp show that you and your sister eavesdrop on your dad's private phone convos, then hector him like scolding busybodies and authoritarian, finger-wagging speech-controllers. Viewing this exchange from the perspective of a parent, I think it would have been reasonable and appropriate for your dad to have responded to your attempts to educate him and get him to "do better" by calling "time out" and telling you and your sister to STFU, MYOB, show some courtesy and respect and get off his back.

But anyways, even if there were a point to that story which could be interpreted as advancing and bolstering your arguments, it still would be totally beside the point on this particular thread.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You are the same sex as Elliot page, babes.

Both adult human females, no? Elliot did not testosterone herself into becoming male.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Elliot Page did testosterone himself into a male. He is becoming a gorgeous and handsome man.

Also, most trans men don't want to be classed with females and I respect that. I dont want to be classed with gender criticals even though I'm a cis woman. I understand GCs don't want to be classed with trans women but many cis women do. People in your sex category include J.K. Rowling, Julie Bindel and Sheila Jeffreys and I respect that.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I dont understand why some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism

Because QT seeks the erasure of women's rights for the benefict of men. Because they won't even allow we have a name for ourselves. And, yes, I know you think I'm being hiperbolic here, but just tell me this, genderbender. What have transactivists made for "cis" women? In what way"cis" women" benefit from transgenderism? But don't give me a generic and empty statemente like all women are better off by including everyone. Give me concrete and observable examples.

Moreover, giving recent developments in the US... Do you really American women have any chance about fighting for abortion when many are more worried about saying things like "not only women get pregnant" so not to the offend the "transmen"? Do you really American women have any chance about fighting for abortion when many are more worried about not pissing off the "transwomen" with so much talk about female reproductive organs? You may deny the importance of sex all you want here, but I'm sure you understand very well which sex category is the only that can get pregnant even if you don't won't it out loud. So, who do you think all this ofuscation and walking on eggs shells really benefit?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (206 children)

Where does asking the question assume anything about the frequency of how often people pass?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (205 children)

Genderbender asked GC people who use women's restrooms:

How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

Or someone who appears to be a trans woman?

Both these questions are based on the assumption that GC users of women's restrooms (who are presumably female) can tell just by looking that TW are TW sometimes, often or always. If TW always passed, how would anyone else be able to discern that a TW seen in the ladies' loo is a TW and not a W?

The second question is based on the further assumption that it's sometimes, often or always impossible for observers to tell the difference between a TW and a male who is dressed "like a woman" for reasons other than gender identity. Such as because he's a drag queen or performer who does British-style panto; he's dressed up for a costume party or stag night; he's simply exploring and expressing his "feminine" side; he's wearing a disguise because he's on the lam as in "Some Like It Hot;" he is an autogynephile but one who does not actually "identify as" the opposite sex, like Grayson Perry; he's an attention-seeking "character" who's a bit of an oddball like Corporal Klinger; he's an attention-seeking entertainer trying to get media coverage; or he's a sexual predator who's decided to dress "like a woman" due to nefarious motives much like the ones that caused the Big Bad Wolf to put on grandmother's clothing in the story of Little Red Riding Hood.

If Genderbender didn't think GC women could tell the difference between TW and W at least some of the time, why would she have asked these questions? Clearly, Genderbender posed these questions after imagining in her head a scenario in a women's restroom where GC women see a person we can clearly clock as a TW, or as someone who appears to be a TW.

If Genderbender truly believed what the holy writ of the gender ideology creed says - which is that no one can tell that males who "identify as" female are not actually female without "looking in their pants" and testing their DNA - she wouldn't be conjuring up these sorts of scenarios in her mind's eye in the first place, and she'd have no reason to ask GC women what we'd do in the situation she clearly has invested time and energy watching unfold in her head.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (204 children)

Both these questions are based on the assumption that GC users of women's restrooms (who are presumably female) can tell just by looking that TW are TW sometimes

It doesn't mean anything more than "sometimes", what?

If TW always passed,

That wasn't claimed so

he's an attention-seeking "character" who's a bit of an oddball like Corporal Klinger;

Just a total aside that I really hate that show because it was an insult my mom used against me.

Such as because he's a drag queen or performer who does British-style panto

Idk what to tell u if you can't tell the difference between drag or panto as a performance and trans people wearing normal clothes and makeup. I don't discount the possibility that someone who isn't trans somehow passes, uses the women's room and also has ulterior or suspicious motives, but that's a totally separate concern from passing trans people using the bathroom.

tell the difference between TW and W at least some of the time

Please stop putting words into the mouths of QT ppl asking questions. I think most trans people have no trouble saying that there are scenarios where trans women can be distinguished. Just that for passing trans people what would be required to make that distinction would violate our privacy and you don't have a right to do that. I obviously wouldn't pass if someone examines my genitalia, but no one has the right to do that without my consent

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (203 children)

Idk what to tell u if you can't tell the difference between drag or panto as a performance and trans people wearing normal clothes and makeup.

I didn't say I personally couldn't tell the difference. I just gave examples of situations where males might be dressing and trying to appear "as women" and there'd be no way for someone who casually encounters them briefly to tell what their motives and reasons are. A stranger could guess, but there'd be no way to know for sure without inquiring.

Also, the fact of the matter is, there's often a huge discrepancy between what many male "trans people" regard as "wearing normal clothes and makeup" and what the rest of the world thinks is "wearing normal clothes and makeup."

For example, lots of TW dress in OTT, hyper sexualized ways; they wear outfits and makeup that most women and girls would not wear, unless those women and girls are porn actors, strippers, street prostitutes, Only Fans workers, Kardashians or entertainers like the rap artists like Cardi B or singer and dancer Jennifer Lopez.

Similarly, many middle-aged and older TW dress in ways that actual female people the same age do not - that we'd never be caught dead in, in fact. I've seen lots of TW in their 50s, 60s and 70s out and about in very short mini skirts, thigh highs and revealing tops that the vast majority of women their age would never, ever wear because the stage in our lives when we could get away with such a look ended many years ago. Similarly, some older TW like Sophie Grace Chappell and that infamous Stephonknee person who "identifies as" a child of 6 wear the clothing, makeup and hairstyles of little girls - Mary Janes, ankle socks, pig tails, party dresses with puffy sleeves, and pouffed-out skirts with crinolines.

I think most trans people have no trouble saying that there are scenarios where trans women can be distinguished. Just that for passing trans people what would be required to make that distinction would violate our privacy and you don't have a right to do that.

Maybe some trans people say that, but a lot of of TP and other gender identity ideologues refuse to acknowledge that there are any scenarios where TW can be distinguished. In fact, many TP and their allies say it's transphobic to acknowledge that some TW are clockable as males - even when they are naked and waving their penises and balls in girls' and women's faces. That's what happened in the Wi Spa case. Women who objected to seeing a naked adult male with a semi-erect penis in the women-only area of the spa were told time and again that serial sex offender Darren Merragher is a woman and thus Merragher's semi-hard penis on display was/is a woman's penis, because Merragher "identifies as" a TW - and TWAW.

It's also happened in the case of the many TW whose mug shots and other photos have appeared in the press due to them being arrested or convicted of violent crimes like murder, attempted murder, assaults with axes, hammers and knives and sex crimes like rape, possession of images showing children being sexually abused, and indecent exposure. Trans people and allies constantly say that observing and declaring "that's not a woman" in the case of TPs convicted or accused of heinous crimes is just as bad an offense as the many murders, assaults, rapes and other sex crimes these TPs have committed. In fact, some TPs and their allies say that "misgendering" of TPs who've committed criminal acts against other people - including child sex abuse and the rape and murder of women - is a far worse offense than the horrible crimes they've committed.

Just that for passing trans people what would be required to make that distinction would violate our privacy and you don't have a right to do that.

But the scenario that Genderbender brought up was about a women's restroom. By going into such spaces, TW are violating the privacy - and jeopardizing the safety and denying the dignity - of female human beings. Where do you get the impression that you and other males like you have the right to do this?

That's a serious question. I think if you look into it, you'll find that the right that some males believe they have to use women's restrooms on account of their gender identity claims and gender presentation is a right that some males decided simply to declare and take for themselves, without ever bothering to ask women if it was okay with us. Now after the fact, males who arrogantly assumed that women's restrooms and other female spaces are theirs for the taking are finding out that lots of women are not okay with this kind of male interloping - and this discovery is causing you/them to feel outraged. It never occurred to you/them that women would push back and say "this is not your space, you do not belong here" because virtually none of you gave a moment's thought to the issue of how your actions would affect female people. In the calculations of most TW, the feelings and perspectives of actual women are never factored in, because most TW see us as objects, inferiors, and lowly service providers whose purpose in life is to center and cater to males - not as full-fledged human beings with needs and perspectives of our own who deserve rights as much as anyone else.

But even if TW had bothered to ask permission to horn in on female spaces, the fundamental problem is that especially as more and more people declare they are trans - and being trans has no concrete or fixed definition - it becomes harder and harder for the world to agree on exactly who counts as

passing trans people

Especially "passing trans women." However, the fact that you yourself use the phrase "passing trans people" shows that even you admit there are some who don't pass even in your own eyes. So the thorny issue at the heart of the matter remains: when people don't see eye to eye, whose perceptions count? Why should the idealized images that TW see when they gaze at themselves in their mirrors take precedence over what other people see when they encounter them out and about?

More to the point, why should the claims of male persons who say that they are now women be taken more seriously and given more weight and credence than the claims of actual women who say no they/you are not?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, the fact of the matter is, there's often a huge discrepancy between what many male "trans people" regard as "wearing normal clothes and makeup" and what the rest of the world thinks is "wearing normal clothes and makeup."

Genuinely don't see how this is relevant or how going off about what some people wear is somehow representative? Idk I should clarify that I'm only trying with my comments to represent a cohort of young adult trans people that I'm a part of and most familiar with. And you might not like people wearing "stripper" makeup but 1. Sex workers, prostitutes, etc, don't deserve any hate and 2. A lot of us have had to learn the norms and expectations of cosmetics as adults because it was forbidden to us as kids. I'd personally like to wear more makeup but I have very little confidence in my ability lol.

Anyway I wear jeans and tees and converse but idk what's supposed to be so wrong if I wore thigh highs and shorts instead. I don't because of the association.

lots of TW dress in OTT, hyper sexualized ways

Okay uhh so do plenty of women and I don't see you questioning their womanhood or speculating on their creepiness?

In fact, some TPs and their allies say that "misgendering" of TP convicted and accused criminals is a far worse offense

Tbh I can agree they're being really hyperbolic there. I'm on the fence on whether I care about misgendering r*pists and other criminals and it's certainly smaller magnitude than their crime. But if we're going to treat criminals as human beings to an extent that should probably include pronouns? Idk. They're still vile people.

By going into such spaces, TW are violating the privacy

In what way does us using the bathroom violate your or anyone else's privacy? Trans women have been using the women's room for decades, if someone is being a creep then it should be normalized to report that regardless of their gender.

I still have a ton of anxiety over this and once I spent almost an hour in a stall at the zoo because I didn't want anyone to see me leaving in case they clocked me. I'm tired of being irrational and stressing myself out over something that isn't even a problem.

So the thorny issue remains: when people don't see eye to eye, whose perceptions count?

No one's perception counts, otherwise you get butch women thrown out of bathrooms for looking "male" to some nobody. Even if someone doesn't pass they should be able to use the bathroom imo. They're allowed to personally evaluate whether they're comfortable doing that, like, ik I wouldn't be, but yeah

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (201 children)

Realized u edited after I replied, sorry!

It never occurred to you/them that women would push back and say "this is not your space" because none of you thought about how your actions w

No I actually think about it all the time to the point where it makes it difficult for me to do anything. Tell me, who am I supposed to ask for permission to be a woman? You? Sorry but I've spent years asking and the only answer I ever get is that I can't, I get told to just be a gnc man, etc--basically impossible answers that I can't hope to adhere to without hurting myself. The expectation for me from y'all is that I should be totally selfless and be a woman in my home but conform in public and I just won't do that, it's not a fair expectation to place. I care about whether other people are comfortable around me but I'm not going to flagellate myself to appease them. I know I'm a woman, if you think differently I'm sorry and I'll do my best to wash my hands as fast as possible so you don't have to look at my ugly mug too long

Why should the idealized images that TW see when they gaze at themselves in their mirrors

Lol when I look in the mirror I see a nasty goblin man, far from an idealized image of myself. I've had to reinforce to myself that I am never an accurate judge of my appearance and to rely on others, because no one around me ever sees me that way and it's just my dysphoric brain being how it is.

[–]Juniperius 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (70 children)

Tell me, who am I supposed to ask for permission to be a woman? You? Sorry but I've spent years asking and the only answer I ever get is that I can't, I get told to just be a gnc man, etc--basically impossible answers that I can't hope to adhere to without hurting myself.

Do you apply this logic to everything?

I've asked repeatedly for some of your French fries and you keep saying no, so I'm just going to take them anyway?

I've spent years asking the citizens of my town to put me on the city court, and they keep telling me no, so I'm just going to commit a coup?

I've spent years asking someone to have sex with me, and she keeps telling me that she doesn't want to, so I'm going to slip her a roofie?

Sometimes the answer is no. That doesn't mean you didn't ask enough times.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (69 children)

No, just in cases where it affects an identity I've had my entire life. Also idk it's gross to compare it to slipping someone something in their drink when there isn't any concrete person's autonomy being violated here. Who's hurt by me being a woman?

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (68 children)

Who is hurt by you pretending to be a woman? Everyone who is forced to play along or face backlash, everyone who has to ignore their instincts for social cohesion, everyone who has to give up their privacy to accommodate you, everyone who has to ignore reality for your benefit.

Your identity does not exist separate from society, and by claiming to be a woman, you negatively impact women and their female-specific rights and issues. Frankly, it's insulting to many of us who are actually female and socialized as girls in a sexist society our entire lives.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (67 children)

How am I making people do that when I don't tell anyone irl I'm trans? And what privacy would even be given up?

Why is it insulting just because I wasn't raised that way? How many years of living do I need to go through as an adult before it will matter more than the childhood I never chose? When I'm 37 can I say I'm a woman then?

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

Sorry but I've spent years asking and the only answer I ever get is that I can't, I get told to just be a gnc man, etc--basically impossible answers that I can't hope to adhere to without hurting myself. The expectation for me from y'all is that I should be totally selfless and be a woman in my home but conform in public and I just won't do that, it's not a fair expectation to place. I care about whether other people are comfortable around me but I'm not going to flagellate myself to appease them.

So, instead, you expect women be the ones who must disregard our own comfort and safety so to appease people like you. So you all keep accessing women's bathrooms, which you all have decided without asking women of course, you HAVE to use at all costs. It's women who must sacrifice themselves for the benefict of you all.

If you all don't want to use the men's bathrooms (and other sex-seggregated spaces), then you all can advocate for third spaces. But, no, you all do NOT want to use third spaces under any circunstance because that it's not "validating" enough or whatever. No, you all must use the women's bathrooms regardless of how women feel about this. And, of course, women are the ones who are being mean by standing up for their own boundaries and no you all for feeling entintled to use spaces that never were meant for you all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

you all have decided without asking women of course, you HAVE to use at all costs.

I'm just not going to put myself last at all costs anymore. Trans people don't have to sacrifice ourselves for you either.

Also still I don't understand what you mean by asking women, who exactly? Bc I've had women drag me into bathrooms before and tell me I was being silly.

But, no, you all do NOT want to use third spaces under any circunstance

Because I will not be told what I supposedly am and where I'm "supposed" to pee, yeah. And because a third space would be more likely to make someone question I'm trans and I have a right to live a private life. I'm going to stand up for myself and other trans people no matter how much I'm told to just give in. Would you use one regularly or would you feel you should be able to use the bathroom that's for you? Idk I will use it if nothing else is available but not if I've been forced to

A bathroom that you don't own and that trans people have been using for decades is not your boundary, you can't just declare things as being your boundary and expect everyone to accept your ownership?? Like, your person, your body, those are for you to set what you're comfortable with 100% but kicking an entire group out of a bathroom simply because you don't like some of us is just bigotry. Neither of us should get to decide how each other lives, if someone is harassing you or making you feel unsafe then ofc I support you, heck I'd probably support you if there were an incident and it were your word against theirs because women should be believed.

Like, wouldn't you say that women's bathrooms are for all women and girls regardless of race, creed, sexuality, etc? Bc if so that's exactly how I feel, you just do not include me in that. That doesn't mean I'm just going to assume you must be absolutely correct.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

I'm just not going to put myself last at all costs anymore. Trans people don't have to sacrifice ourselves for you either.

No one is asking you to sacrifice yourself. Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces. I doubt youwould find much oppossition to this solution besides yourselves.

Also still I don't understand what you mean by asking women, who exactly? Bc I've had women drag me into bathrooms before and tell me I was being silly.

The fact that your friends are okay with you using the women's bathrooms doesn't mean ALL women are fine with this. It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

Would you use one regularly or would you feel you should be able to use the bathroom that's for you?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

A bathroom that you don't own and that trans people have been using for decades is not your boundary, you can't just declare things as being your boundary and expect everyone to accept your ownership??

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them. The fact is they weren't meant for you all back then, either. If you all find more opposition for your actions right now is because your actions are not a secret anymore as there are way more males who claim to be "women" and because of the internet.

Like, your person, your body, those are for you to set what you're comfortable with 100% but kicking an entire group out of a bathroom simply because you don't like some of us is just bigotry.

Why do you think public bathrooms and other places where vulnerability is expected are sex-seggregated to begin with? It's not a social club. It's about and privacity because lots of women are not confortable sharing them with male strangers. It's about safety because men are physically stronger and are more likely to be violent and most sex predators are men. Women cannot know which males are safe or not, so the best prevention strategy is baryng ALL males from such places. You're taking our "no" too personally, but this is NOT about you. Allowing special exeptions for certains males because they feel like "women" defeats the purpose of sex-seggregation.

if someone is harassing you or making you feel unsafe then ofc I support you, heck I'd probably support you if there were an incident and it were your word against theirs because women should be believed.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces. It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily. You all insist you NEED to be away from the men for your own safety, but women must settle for your "support" after an avoidable incident happened.

Like, wouldn't you say that women's bathrooms are for all women and girls regardless of race, creed, sexuality, etc? Bc if so that's exactly how I feel, you just do not include me in that.

It's not about whether I want to include you or not. It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces

We aren't a third thing, we're men and women. I support third spaces for enbies but it should be up to them.

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

You can't actually believe that there could ever be such a vote, right? People assume I am a woman regardless of how you vote, I don't need permission for that any more than you do.

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them

Neither does it entitle you to say we can't use them though.

baryng ALL males from such places.

  1. I'm not a "male" or at least I won't be cast as such against my will
  2. This will do absolutely nothing to stop predatory men. They should be arrested for what they actually do wrong, not just being in a bathroom, banning trans women will not deter them to any significant effect, plus, banning trans women will hurt more trans women than there would be those potentially helped if that actually deterred a small minority of predators.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces

Trans women being in those spaces is not inherently harmful.

It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily.

It's funny how you all expect trans women to defer to your concerns no matter what and flagellate ourselves because you think we don't deserve to stand up for ourselves, aka exactly how misogynistic men treat women. I have empathy for anyone who suffers abuse in a bathroom but I do not see why means the vast majority should be excluded. All women including trans women deserve public space away from men.

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (85 children)

Tell me, who am I supposed to ask for permission to be a woman? You?

I know I'm a woman

Sorry, but even you don't sound convinced by your own rhetoric.

Being a woman isn't like gaining entry to a club. It's a matter of biology. Nature/evolution decided your sex when your mother's egg and your father's sperm merged. It had nothing whatsoever to do with me. Neither I nor any other woman or person on earth can grant you permission to be a woman just like none of us can wave a magic wand, say abracadabra and grant you three wishes.

Your sex and your unhappiness with your sex are not my problem. Nor are they the problem of the rest of the world's women and girls to deal with and solve for you. I am truly sorry for your suffering - I genuinely am - but the fact is, lots of people suffer with all sorts of psychological and physical problems that are just as bad or actually far worse than gender dysphoria.

If you genuinely want to find happiness, you've got to find a way to deal with your problems that doesn't require all of society be totally re-arranged just to suit you. You've got to find a way that doesn't demand that everyone else in the world help you feel feel better by constantly denying reality, denying our own perceptions, watching what we say and changing how we say it, biting our tongues, telling lies and forever walking on eggshells.

If you truly want to find happiness, you've got to find a way that doesn't require that the female half of the human forfeit our own safety, privacy, dignity, comfort and mental health for you.

Women and girls are not here on earth for your convenience and use. Women and girls need female-only spaces for ourselves for our own reasons.

The solution to your dilemmas as regards peeing goes is to campaign for additional spaces for people who don't want to use the single-sex spaces consistent with their/your own sex. The solution for your larger issues about social acceptance and other people being comfortable around you is to campaign for other members of your sex to be kinder and more tolerant toward nonconforming males.

I will support you in both campaigns. But women and girls have enough problems of our own to deal with. Moreover, the social changes and accommodations you and other gender identity ideologues are demanding create more problems for girls and women and make the material reality of our own lives much worse. It's unreasonable for males like yourself to ask and expect women and girls to give up the hard-won spaces, safeguards, services, sports and rights that generations of women fought tooth and nail for over hundreds years just because now in the 21st century some very entitled people with luxury beliefs have developed self-image and identity issues.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (84 children)

I am truly sorry for your suffering - I genuinely am

Doubt. I am not asking you to solve my problem! I am solving it myself, through various ways of transition. You say it's biology; so then I'll change my biology and in the meantime I will just live pretending as if I have. It's not perfect but it's enough to get by.

If you truly want to find happiness

I'll find happiness when I'm female or at least not male anymore, not trapped in this body, and not a second before

The solution to your dilemmas as regards peeing goes is to campaign for additional spaces for people who don't want to use the single-sex spaces consistent with their/your own sex

I don't want additional spaces because I'm not an "additional sex". I'm a woman and identify with women and yeah I'm going to try and be cognizant of my appearance and all but I shouldn't need to walk on eggshells in order so that someone will not be upset by my mere existence anymore than other women should.

But women and girls have enough problems of our own to deal with

A lot of those problems are also the problems of trans women and girls. Not biological ones, but the misogyny that's directed at everyone because of that biology or the assumption of it. We should be helping each other solve that and for the most part trans people are pro bodily autonomy unlike the religious right who so many GCs seem to be fine allying with.

very entitled people with luxury beliefs

It's far from a luxury, but idk if I should be surprised y'all like Rowling here. I'm not trans because I thought it'd be a fun thing to do, I am because it was the only thing I could do.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (83 children)

A lot of those problems are also the problems of trans women and girls. Not biological ones, but the misogyny that's directed at everyone because of that biology or the assumption of it. We should be helping each other solve that and for the most part trans people are pro bodily autonomy unlike the religious right who so many GCs seem to be fine allying with.

This is forced teaming. It's a tactic abusers use.

You and I share common interests as human beings, and I am sure we are aligned on various political and social issues. But because we are different sexes, there are many experiences we do not share - and many places where our interests diverge.

You belong to the sex that for millennia has oppressed and abused my sex. I interpret the kind of attitudes you display as just more of the same sort of arrogant, selfish, male supremacist male entitlement that men and boys have been displaying for tens of thousands of years to lord it over women and girls, intimidate us, dehumanize us, bully us, keep us down and let us know that in their/your eyes we don't matter nearly as much as males do. I experience the intrusive, sex-appropriating and colonizing behaviors you are engaging as more of the same sorts of abusiveness that your sex has been dishing out to my sex for millennia.

You can tell yourself that you are a victim of misogyny until you are blue in the face. It won't make it so. Nor will it change the fact that I and many others think the attitudes that most males who call themselves TW have towards women and girls, the way you see and treat us, and the demands you are making of us, epitomize misogyny.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (82 children)

This is forced teaming

It's not forced it's just how things are?? It's allyship, there are plenty of things I don't experience too but I still support you in solving those issues even if it doesn't affect me.

You belong to the sex that for millennia has oppressed and abused my sex

Why does that mean I'm a horrible person though? I'm so sorry if in any of our conversations I've made you feel scared or intimidated. Really I am, I am truly trying to live my life as a woman without hurting anyone. But tbh... you don't really know much about me or my relationships with others. How I see myself has nothing to do with how I see you or other women or girls. I don't like it when people act misogynistically towards me, if that's what you think. It's just that just like everyone else I shouldn't be required or expected to escape from being targeted by not appearing as a woman.

Of course you matter as much, because you're a human being.

Not sure how I can be a male supremacist when I hate being male and everything that comes with it and so I am trying to change and be better. I've just realized that shouldn't include being a total doormat because that's kinda how I am irl.

Idk, I have enough self-respect to say I don't really think there's a point in talking to someone who thinks I am an abuser for being stealth trans. What am I supposed to say to that anyway? "Ok I won't be trans anymore"? I can and will be a good person who happens to be trans, even if you don't agree. I wish you well though

[–]comradeconradical 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would leave and come back once the transwoman has left.

If that's not an option and the transwoman isn't acting obnoxiously, I would avoid all eye contact, do my business as quickly as possible, and leave. I would, however, be very stressed.

Though, at a bar once I saw a man in the women's washroom and had enough liquid confidence to inform him he was in the wrong place. He was apologetic and hadn't noticed in his drunkenness. I would be afraid to say this to a transwoman for fear of backlash, which is why I would leave or ignore.

Unfortunately it seems a transwoman's comfort in an intimate setting trumps that of women as a whole.

[–]penelopekitty 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I would leave. Most of the transwomen I've seen in public are obvious middle aged AGPs. I do not want to be in a confined space where I'm partially disrobed with a fetishist. I do not consent to participating in their fetish.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Cis women can also be fetishists. How do you know you haven't been partially disrobed next to a fetishist?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They might have a fetish, but they are extremely unlikely to have a fetish for watching other women undress, for presenting themselves as a woman, for being in a space they are not meant to be in, for planting cameras and uploading the footage to pornography sites, or for disrobing themselves and being seen by women.

Gotta say it’s very telling that you only answer some questions and refuse to engage with any that prove your arguments to be fallible.

[–]shveya 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True 100%, furthermore, if another woman comes ats me, I at least have a fighting chance of defending myself.

[–]penelopekitty 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have never been sexually harassed by another woman in all of my 50+ years. Not even once. I've lost count of how many men have been sexually inappropriate with me in my lifetime. Men do not belong in women's spaces. Especially not where we might be physically vulnerable or fully or partially undressed.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would leave.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don’t react unless they are doing something they shouldn’t be or loitering. I keep my displeasure to myself like a regular polite person does.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is how everyone should react.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think we’re all squaring up and starting a fight or something?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Before I moved this happened a few times. I felt uncomfortable each time. I usually left and came back once he got out of the bathroom. But one time I came out of a stall and a TW had entered while I was in the stall and of course I washed my hands before I left but it was awkward.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I use men's restrooms half the time anyway, so I wouldn't personally care. It's not outside my comfort zone, but I don't think I should get to speak for anyone other than myself.