GC women: If you had been born male, and you felt unable to get the rest of the male community to behave better, wouldn't you be ashamed and embarassed too? Possibly to the point of wanting to hide it or make it ambiguous?

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[–]Chronicity 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I can understand feeling a sense of guilt and embarrassment mixed with frustration at my fellow man. It’s not easy being a member of a group known for fucked up things, and unfortunately, men have that reputation. (But they also are known for great things.)

What I don’t see myself doing is deluding myself that I’m not a man just because of these feelings. Self-deception of this type requires a level of distorted thinking that I don’t have.

There is something Shakespearean about a transwoman with internalized misandry, especially if they are AGP on top of it. To hate manhood because of masculine destructiveness so badly that it causes you to colonize women’s identities, invade their spaces, hijack their sociopolitical movements, take sports titles from them, fetishize them in broad daylight , and then attack them for not playing along has to be the height of masculine destructiveness, right? Imagine one day waking up and realizing what you’ve done. The self-loathing that must come with realizing your attempt to flee manhood has turned you into a textbook example of what you hate the most has to be unreal.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I unironically think that that sort of realisation is a contributor to suicide amongst transgender people and it’s scary af that we aren’t allowed to talk about it except niche online boards like this.

[–]Chronicity 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I do too.

Even the most delusional TW know they are men, at least subsconsciously. This deep awareness interacts with the internalized misandry also stewing in their psyche, causing them to exhibit the very behavior they hate the most to validate their own loathing towards men. They register this feeling as gender dysphoria and point to that as evidence that they are true trans. But it’s really a side effect of a maladaptive coping mechanism that is self-reinforcing: “I hate being a man—>I’m trans—>Look at how manly I just acted—>I hate being a man—>I’m trans—>Etc.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s a really sad cycle and it seems so obvious when it’s practically said verbatim by transgender women. It’s kinda upsetting, like..there’s this clear path out of the self hatred and depression but an entire social movement is based largely on supporting shying away from it at any cost.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'd be more ashamed if, in order to hide my hypothetical male sex, I engaged in the very same toxic and abusive behaviour I claim to be fleeing from. Every time I hear this kind of explantion about how someone cannot possibly be a man because they define a man as a kind of monster whithout any redeemabe quality, I want to ask them how genuine this feeling actually is if they are completely oblivious about how much havoc they wreck by forcing women to play along with this. To me it sounds more as if, because for whatever reason they feel like they are at the bottom of male hierarchy, either (1) they want to use women as disposable human shields or (2) they want to bully women because we are an easier target than men.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I engaged in the very same toxic and abusive behaviour I claim to be fleeing from

Y'all don't even know what we're like irl, like, a big number of people who feel this way are incredibly timid irl. I can barely go outside, let alone invade a woman's club or space. Ppl just make up caricatures of how trans women's self-hatred manifests. Maybe some people lash out but most of us are suffering in relative silence or physically or digitally self-harming

To me it sounds more as if, because for whatever reason they feel like they are at the bottom of male hierarchy

Every single male person is a waste of air and synapses even if we don't realize it. There's no "bottom" or hierarchy, every single one. It would be kinder to just kill us all. No, please, I'm begging you to do that. Please. If you have the choice please don't bring more people like this into the world. I want to die, I hate being like this, and there's never going to be any way out. I've never been brave enough to do it myself I've just had close calls. Please, I'm sorry

[–]Chronicity 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Look, there is a thing called reality. Everyone lives in it and we can see with our own eyes that “transwomen are just timid little shut-ins” is a laughable generalization. Just recently a 29 year old trans-identified male took first place in a women’s skateboarding event, and most of his competitors were teenaged girls. Trying to square this wastrel of a human being with your claim of innocent timidness doesn’t work, even if the majority of TW are indeed like what you say. Honestly, if I were a transwoman, I would feel more shame being associated with transwomen than men. At least I see men talking about acting honorably.

It is sad that you have such a low opinion of men. Why do you feel this way?

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Y'all don't even know what we're like irl, like, a big number of people who feel this way are incredibly timid irl. I can barely go outside, let alone invade a woman's club or space. Ppl just make up caricatures of how trans women's self-hatred manifests. Maybe some people lash out but most of us are suffering in relative silence or physically or digitally self-harming

Look, I do NOT know anything about you because I do NOT know you, and I do NOT care to discuss what you personally do or do not IRL. I do NOT care if you never leave your house because there IS plenty of OTHERS like you who DO engage in said behaviours, just like Chronicity pointed out.

However, because I can see it I can tell you how you act on this very sub. All you do care is about you and every discussion must be around you. You're constantly dismissing how women are being hurt or will be hurt because of transgenderims. And you're unable to understand why women may find insulting the fact that a male (speaking in general here) thinks he can be a woman either through self-declaration or through taking exogenous hormones or undergoing cosmetic surgeries. And you are unable understand why we take issue when you say that sex does not matter at all.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I implore you to seek help assessing and healthily breaking down these extremely unhealthy ideas about your sex making you supposedly undeserving of affection of love.

I’d suggest refraining from making statements like all of x group should be killed. From someone who claims to be at risk of genocide it’s an especially violent and extreme position to take.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most of the ones who want to "hide their sex or make it ambiguous" are not even trying to make the rest of the male community behave better.

But even if they were, most of those men "flee" the male community by engaging in misogyny, using women as shields and props, appropriating womanhood, spreading and legitimizing sexist stereotypes, changing the law to damage women and silencing/canceling/censoring women, so even if they were doing it for a somewhat understandable reason, it still isn' t something I am willing to justify.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you had been born male, and you felt unable to get the rest of the male community to behave better, wouldn't you be ashamed and embarrassed too? Possibly to the point of wanting to hide it or make it ambiguous?

The premise here is that males who attempt to hide their sex or make it appear more ambiguous by getting on the trans train - or by adopting a non-binary or other newfangled gender identity - all only do so after spending years devoting a great deal of their time, energy and effort into trying "to get the rest of t the male community to behave better." I believe this is a false, totally unfounded premise.

My observation is that males who've gotten on the gender identity bandwagon and identity as other than their sex generally have absolutely NO history of spending any time or energy whatsoever engaged in trying "to get the male community to behave better." This is true whether they are homosexuals who were or felt bullied and shamed for being insufficiently "manly" in their formative years, or they are heterosexual autogynephiles.

Sure, some might have attended an anti-war protest or BLM rally and used online hashtags protesting some kinds of male violence, such as police shootings... But none of them seem ever to have spent any time and energy whatsoever seriously trying "to get the rest of the male community to behavior better" in any way or any context.

In fact, prior to announcing that they are not men, a lot of males who say they "identify as" trans or non-binary engaged in a host of behaviors emblematic of "toxic masculinity" in its traditional forms. A majority of the MA and older heterosexual autogynephiles devoted their lives prior to "transition" to "manly" pursuits: trying to become top dog in boys' and men's sports; serving as soldiers and officers in all-male or almost entirely male military outfits; spending their every waking hour in the company of other males as they sought career success in male-dominated fields like IT, business, medicine, technology, journalism, academic philosophy; fathering children; "ruling the roost" and playing "king of the castle" at home; consuming pornography and exchanging porn with other blokes; chasing and sexually harassing women; and pursuing their own sexual pleasure and other selfish interests with no concern for the impact of their behaviors on others, such as their wives, children, their own mothers and sisters, and the female members of the communities they reside in and interact with.

A considerable portion of the younger heterosexual males who have gone trans today seem to have previously been openly and proudly misogynistic MRAs and incels who themselves have long behaved in abusive and bullying ways to others, especially women and girls (starting with their mothers and sisters). Some were neo-Nazis. Many are blatantly racist.

As for the homosexual ones, my impression is that - again generally speaking - most of them are way too wrapped up in themselves, too obsessed with their appearance, too steeped in the sex stereotypes they are enthralled with, and too preoccupied with activities like trying to look and act "girly," trying to attract and bed men, playing the victim and whining and complaining about how oppressed and vulnerable they are, and intruding upon and demonizing female people - whilst simultaneously expressing envy, covetousness and ire towards us - for any of them to ever have lifted a single solitary finger in an effort to try "to get other males to behave better."

In fact, my impression of males who say they want to become women because they loathe men and don't want to be associated with men is that it's never occurred to any of them to try to get other males to behave better - either to males like themselves or to members of the female sex. Which is why these males direct their demands for kindness, acceptance and "inclusion" almost exclusively at women and girls, and they have expectations of women and girls they'd never dare have of other males.

Regardless of their sexual orientation, the vast majority of males who have adopted trans or non-binary identities supposedly to escape being men and being associated with men seem to take it as a given that female humans must be forced to sacrifice our rights, spaces, sports, safety, privacy, dignity, comfort, convenience, mental wellbeing and self-esteem to make them and other males with similar gender identities feel good about themselves and feel safe and "at home" in the world - but they do not place any similar or equivalent expectations and demands on other males.

If anyone can provide examples which show that most males who now identify as trans or NB only adopted those identities after previously devoting their lives to trying "to get the rest of the male community to behave better" but found their efforts were in vain, please do. I will then edit or withdraw this post and admit my impressions are wrong.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems to me like the males who say that they want to flee manhood because men are scum do it more because they engage in that same behaviour but do not want to be held responsible for it like other men are.

They think that by being a "woman", they are excused for the same kind of attitudes and behaviour other men display, because after all women can' t be sexist against other women. Which is a stupid argument to begin with since internalized misogyny and women hating other women exist in huge number, so even if these males were actually women, it still wouldn' t make their sexist behaviour not sexist.

But yeah, I don' t really buy that these men have devoted themselves towards bettering their community and then giving up in frustration, anger and sadness after realizing that they can' t do it: it just seems like they don' t want to be called out on their own behaviour and still want to engage in all the sexist crap they like while having some sort of loophole for doing it in an "acceptable" way.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is such a weird way of thinking about it. Is this something you think motivates males to transition or is it something that motivated you? I’ve heard hatred towards men or maleness from people like Derrple and others a lot, but I don’t relate to that. The patriarchy exists, toxic masculinity exists, and many men behave badly, but I don’t think any of that has to with why I’m trans (obviously I can’t really know how I would have been in a world where feminine boys were treated better or felt like we fit, but dysphoria is real). I like men and don’t think they are all bad people just because they are male or think I am bad because I am male, even if I wish I wasn’t. I feel like this question says a lot about you…

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is such a weird way of thinking about it. Is this something you think motivates males to transition or is it something that motivated you? I’ve heard hatred towards men or maleness from people like Derrple and others a lot, but I don’t relate to that.

A lot of males who are heterosexual and bisexual say their urge to be women isn't rooted in autogynephilia, but rather stems from a desire to disassociate themselves from having anything to do with the male sex. I've personally heard this cited by quite a few teenagers and young adult males who've gotten caught up in trans mania in the past several years... But I've also heard it from much older ones too. But their experience will be very different to yours because they are NOT homosexual, and they did not have early-childhood-onset GD the way it sounds like you did.

For example, the very thoughtful detransitioning YouTuber Sam - who used to go by the name Maya - is in his 50s, but he has always maintained that he transitioned to escape maleness and masculinity, which he says he has only negative associations with. (A claim I doubt because other things Sam says make it clear he is very favorably inclined towards a lot of the men he tells anecdotes about - as does the way he behaves with the other men he's had convos with in YT videos, all of whom have similar gender identities and "trans histories" as Sam.) Interestingly, Sam, who grew up subjected to violent abuse by his father, turned to toxic and violent masculinity himself by joining a male criminal gang in his youth.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Shame over a group one belongs to us not a transformative process. That shame and actions to remove oneself from the group are both maladaptive.

One ought to recognise that an individual is not guilty of the crimes other members of a group they belong to. Male violence is not solved by saying “I’m not a man because I don’t want to hit women”.

Look at it from another perspective. Should I feel badly about myself because some Romani are criminals, and prefer girls remain uneducated? Should I take steps to alter or change myself because others who share a similarity with me are doing these things?

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly, that's never occurred to me. I do wish I had been born male. If I were male, I'd see myself as one of "the good ones," a provider and protector of those who are weaker. I don't think other men being predators would affect my self-concept. It would just strengthen my resolve to fight those bad actors.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. And you know how I know?

I live in a country that has done a shitty thing in the past. I do not see criticism of that nor my rejection and hatred of it as an affront on me as a person. I see it as a duty to push a community that I contribute to and partake in a better direction. I also don't see it as an affront to myself to hate white supremacism, nor do I feel I need to hide or pretend to be non-white in order to push back against white supremacism (even the one in my own head that I've been inadvertently raised with). Improvement in face of shitty societal influence is not an affront on my value as a person. Doubling down on shitty societal influence and pushing in favour of it is.

I don't see societal backwardness that is pushed onto my biology to be an intrinsic, biological part of who I am. I see it as a shitty ideology that needs to be fought against, regardless of who it is. Men who try to make themselves victimised and oppressed because they have to push back against the patriarchy are not allies. They believe that they're destined (and in a roundabout way, justified) to be fucked up because they're men, and that's simply how men should be. No man who sees violence and misogyny as an integral part of manhood is safe to be around.

[–]levoyageur718293 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That would be an unbelievably pathetic and shameful thing to do. As a male, you are a member of the Male Army. Maybe you're a low-ranking member of it, maybe you get shit on by the officers, maybe your life is a constant parade of misery, maybe you wish the whole thing would fall apart - doesn't matter. You're still part of the Male Army, and you're on the conquering end rather than the conquered end, and you can't ever take off your uniform. You can oppose the Male Army, you can join forces with its victims to fight against it, you can work within the system to try and change the Male Army's policies, you can repudiate everything the Male Army stands for... but you can't ever actually leave it, any more than you can leave the White Army or the Straight Army if you're members of those. You may hate us and oppose us - in fact, you should oppose us, because we're the bad guys - but you can never leave us.

[–]penelopekitty 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. What is shameful is pretending you are the opposite sex and fleeing your responsibility of addressing the harmful behaviors of the group to which you belong. That is cowardly and it is an individual solution to a class problem.