Men following GCF

submitted by woodrup from self.GenderCritical

I’m one of those men who never joined or commented on reddit GCF. I was asked to refrain, and I never felt like I had anything to say that was all that needed anyway. I totally got the “please don’t...” message. But I never missed a day of reading it, for about 2 years since I discovered it. It was an invaluable source of information and experiences that was found nowhere else. I probably won’t add much here in the future either. I’m ok just listening. But today I discussed this whole issue with a couple of young people (young men) I work with (I’m in my 60s, they’re 20s), and they are hook, line, sinker on the TRA bandwagon. I didn’t even bring the subject up, really. They were talking about how resistant right-wingers are to discussing issues reasonably, and I brought up the hounding of the WoLF talks (which I attended), and this latest reddit ban, and the myriad other examples of shouting down and deplatforming that comes primarily from the left. (And I’m an old unreconstructed lefty.) Well, that’s different. I have friends and family my age who are not in thrall to the new regime, but among young people I don’t think I know anyone willing to buck the trend. Young men or young women, they completely disagree with my views, and of course they’re right- I’m a grey old man, they must be right! I’m constantly reminded of Winston in 1984 being instructed on 2+2=5. It’s not enough to simply accept that 5 is the right answer, because you’re told it is, or to escape the pain of denying it. It’s vital that you actually believe that 2+2=5. It’s the only way that the whole house of cards can be maintained. I feel that my generation is largely in the “okay, whatever!”, acceptance phase. It’s not enough, but we’ll be gone soon enough. The younger generations are already far along in truly believing 2+2=5. Why not? It’s all they’re being taught. I’m amazed the usual suspect haven’t been able to pull down Magdalen Berns’s videos yet. I’m counting the days.

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[–]threefingersam 69 insightful - 1 fun69 insightful - 0 fun70 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

not disclosing my age, but this TRA stuff is why I generally feel alienated among my peers. i'd say i'm "politically homeless" these days. thanks for sharing ur experience

[–]StreetAcanthisitta55 19 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I say the exact same thing. Political vagrants for the win!

[–]FuriousPenguin 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And here I thought I was the only one!

[–]jelliknight 43 insightful - 1 fun43 insightful - 0 fun44 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

What's really sad is that one day one each of those people are going to have an experience - the young men will see a man in a dress and lipstick follow their young daughter into a bathroom, or the women will ask for a female doctor and be presented with a bearded man, and it will feel terribly wrong, but they won't have the language to articulate why and they will be taught to hate themselves for even feeling that way.

You're right about 1984. I've also been reading a book about the origins of heresy in Christianity in the middle ages. It wasn't enough to say that jesus is the son of god, or that jesus is god as a part of the holy trinity, you had to manage to believe and articulate BOTH mutually contradictory positions at the same time, otherwise you're a heretic and you'll be killed. Just the same as we're now being told to profess a belief that transwomen are female, except without female bodies and talking about female bodies is exclusionary because it upsets the female people who have the opposite sex of body. It's not about stereotypes, but don't you dare call them by their 'man' name because it will be so destabilizing they might kill themselves and so on. We must profess to believe all these contradictory things at the same time and believe that each of them in an absolute truth.

The thing about lies and truths; lies have to be repeated constantly while the truth only has to be spoken once to be known. This is why they will shout "TRANSWOMEN ARE WOMEN! TRANSWOMEN ARE WOMEN! TRANSWOMEN ARE WOMEN!" but have a total breakdown when someone says "that's literally the only thing a 'transwoman' can't be. by the basic definitions of those words." Speaking the truth just once shatters the illusion. That's why you will never find a case of a GC person who came to believe that 'gender identity' is a real innate thing, while /r/gendercritical had literally tens of thousands of people who stopped believing in gender identity.

Don't lose hope though, you may have done a lot more for those people than you think. Many, many times I've had someone vehemently disagree with me, then think about what i said later on, google the points, and come back a few weeks later to tell me they'd totally changed their view.

[–]cloudrabbit 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

I've also been reading a book about the origins of heresy in Christianity in the middle ages

What book?

[–]jelliknight 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

'The War On Heresy - Faith and Power in Medieval Europe' by R.I. Moore. I only read about half of it because it turns out it really didn't cover the area I was interested in - the persecution of witches, this book is more interested in christian-on-christian heresy

[–]lestratege 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That's because the witch hunts were not a medieval phenomenon, unlike what many believe, but took place from the Renaissance on, and especially in the 16th and 17th.

RI Moore's book is interesting because it details how violence started to be used as a normal tool to deal with heretics.

[–]jelliknight 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I've got other books on the subject, the witch trials really began at the start of the 1400s and gradually ramped up in number of deaths and expanded their focus up until the 17th century when you're talking about. Interestingly, the initial focus of the witch trials were VERY specific. They were targeting women of European indigenous groups and faiths, especially those with knowledge relating to women controlling fertility.

[–]lestratege 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

By the 1400s, the only faith in Europe was Catholicism in the West and Orthodoxy in the East. What indigenous faith was that book talking about? I'd be interested to read about it. Unfortunately too often, things about witchcraft often dwell into shoehorning New age practices that seem more like modern invention than actual history.

In Montaillou, Leroy-Ladurie actually uses the Inquisition records against the Cathars of the future pope Benedict XII, so early 1300s, and there's a brief mention of witchcraft but it's treated as nonsensical superstition by the Inquisitor. Witchcraft didn't become heretic until the end of the 1400s, so at the Renaissance.

Witch hunts were really not a medieval practice but a modern one. They peaked in the 1600s ...

[–]jelliknight 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

By the 1400s, the only faith in Europe was Catholicism in the West and Orthodoxy in the East

Not so. The Benandanti are one well recorded example of a 'shamanic fertility cult' in the 16th and 17th centuries.

The book The War On Heresy has nothing to say about persecution of indigenous faiths, that's why i didn't finish reading it. I'm interested in a VERY niche area of this topic - late 1300s to early 1400s womens indigenous, herbal, and non-christian spiritual practices in western switzerland and surrounds. The War on Heresy is mostly about how practicing and faithful Christians could find themselves accused of heresy.

Catholicism absorbed many local indigenous religions, converting their gods into local saints. The intent being to 'convert' the population without having to actually change any of their beliefs and practices. So, if i were to take the easy way out I could argue that many of the 'catholics' were in fact preserving their own indigenous religions and merely paying lipservice to catholicism.

History suffers from an obvious bias here. The church attempting to present itself as all powerful and the emissaries of god are of course not going to admit they haven't been successful (if they even knew), and most of your history books are the records of academics and religious people in cities. The groups I'm referring to are small isolated rural populations which, on paper, could be called catholic by authorities but in reality maintain their prechristian beliefs and practices. Outside of the benendanti it's more of a personal hypothesis I'm looking into than a historical fact. I believe they may have survived christianization for a time for the same reason they are not in the historical record - no one gave enough of a shit about them. So there's not a lot of record (the benendanti being one of the better recorded groups, surviving 200 years later than the time i'm talking about) but there are inferences. And while it's not explicitly in the historical record, it's not hard to imagine how a small rural population in the swiss alps could continue doing as they have always done and when asked simply reply "Oh yeah, we pray to jesus like ALL the time, no worries. Catholic as fuck around here. Got a little chapel and everything." and then continue to do as they pleased once the bishop left town.

The witch trials became more lethal over time, and broader in focus, peaking in the 1600s-1700s. Turns out, burning people alive is a really versatile political tool. But that's LOOONG after the period I'm interested in. In the time period I'm looking at the trials are beginning to heat up, and the target is specific. Women who know things women shouldn't know, and practice "devilish" rituals such as methods for bringing fertility back to farm land. Initially they were accused of doing EVIL, but useful things like increasing a cows milk yield, or making land fertile. This undermines the authority of the church and the priests. They want you to go an PRAY for your farmland, not listen to some weird old woman telling you how to fix it with some ritual involving cow dung and moonlight (which we would now call biodynamics). Then the accusations shifted - if she can make cows give milk, then she can STOP them too, so it's her fault if your cow isn't giving milk. That was a lot easier to whip the population up over.

The church were especially shitty with women knowing how to prevent pregnancy. There's a weird disconnect in the trial records of women charged with procuring miscarriages during this time, with the priests asking what evil demonic thing they could have been doing, and the rural women replying they just 'used the usual herbs and methods'. Eve's Herbs by John M Riddle is a great resource on this, he covers how in pre-christian Europe knowledge of herbs which are effective contraceptives or abortives was ubiquitous. The church was never really cool about women controlling their own bodies so over time these herbs were referred to by euphemisms like 'menstrual stimulators', and then eventually left out of the herbals altogether. Ironically, eventually that ended up working in favor of the women who used them because the doctors couldn't agree whether or not they were just a 'silly old wives tale'. The witches, in the initial, were accused of non just general devil-y things but also they keep repeating that witches kill babies in the mothers womb, make women barren and make men sterile. Midwives were one major target of the initial witch trials, and they were charged with helping women to end pregnancies. Conceiving and preventing conception should be up to god, and you should pray (and pay the church) if you want that. Taking it into your own hands is evil.

So there's a lot of inference and conjecture but we do know that:

  • pre christian beliefs and practices, both practical and spiritual, existed.

  • There were paganistic groups until the 1600s which the church discovered and then exterminated.

  • There were people practicing pre christian beliefs and practices along side, as part of, and in defiance of Christianity all through the medieval period. Some of this was a target for the initial witch trials.

[–]lestratege 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The reason there's few in the Middle Ages is that the Witch hunts is actually a consequence of the rise of the institutionalisation of science in the modern age.

While folk remedies and popular midwifery was perfectly acceptable in the Middle Ages, when the reign of reason started, anything that didn't fall into the category of a science started to be frown upon then completely condemned. The result is that the science held by groups of women became severely suspicious, hence the witchcraftery accusation.

The initial targets of witchcraft accusation were not of religious nature. As I mentioned about Montaillou, in the 1300s the Inquisitor didn't take such accusation seriously and brushed it aside as just something completely unimportant.

I have yet to find any serious trace of paganism in Western Europe at that time. We're talking about areas that had been christianized a thousand years before. Remnants of pagan cults did linger in the High Middle Ages, but aside from fiction, I've not seen any evidence of such surviving cults in the late medieval period in Western Europe.

[–]fuckingsealions 40 insightful - 3 fun40 insightful - 2 fun41 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I don't say this very often, and who am I to give out cookies, BUT. Sincerely, thank you for listening. Your post makes me definitely open to hearing you.

I really think this acceptance is a hangover from gay rights being legislated so spectacularly. Young people now grew up during that period and saw how positive gay marriage has been in the sense that, yes, gay people are just regular people living their lives.

What is so strange to me now is the feeling I get that women are being punched down to. I know some gay men don't care for women in general and that's fine. But I haven't seen massive organized hate coming into feminist spaces or at celebrities from queer people, blown up on social media and the news for all to see. I have never felt like gay people wanted to displace my sex. That doesn't even make sense to me.

OP it's interesting that you mention your workplace. I'm blue collar, and work with very few women. I live in a liberal West coast city and I never hear guys I work with even clocking what's going on wrt the, uh, terfwars. I do have one co-worker who has a daughter who's transitioned recently, but he only seems to talk to me about the situation since I ooze liberal feminist. He wonders if it's "just a phase" since he's heard that's possible. I just listen, since I'm not there. My kid's got a lot of new fangled Zoomer things happening, but she's sure she's also an old school lesbian. 😄

[–]ZeWombat 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I really think this acceptance is a hangover from gay rights being legislated so spectacularly. Young people now grew up during that period and saw how positive gay marriage has been in the sense that, yes, gay people are just regular people living their lives.

I've had this opinion for years now. I hate to say it, but at this point, I believe I'd give back some gay rights to have a do over on all the trans stuff.

The other reason for the relative quickness of trans acceptance (and even promotion?) is the internet/social media. Opinions and information can move around at a lightening pace. Back when I came out and started getting involved with some issues, just finding other gay people was a monumental task if you didn't know where to look.

[–]fuckingsealions 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I remember driving to my nearest large city and looking for gay local papers so I could know what was happening. New ideologies are formed in weeks now.

[–]woodrup[S] 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks, sealions, for your kind words. I’m also in a blue collar field (carpentry) in NYC. Many of us here got into the trades coming from art school (me), or music (my young colleagues), or that general stream. When I first went from art school to tool belt in the early 80s there were numerous young arty types getting into the carpentry field. There was tons of work for everyone, and lots of little pop-up (not a term back then) companies hiring all of us. We were staight, gay, lesbian, tough, femme, butch, ...but really, we were all just a bunch of art nerds. One of our crew (female) could walk up a few flights of stairs with two 94lb bags of cement on her shoulder while a lot of us struggled with just one. We were all over the place on that gender confirmation wheel. We probably should have spent all our time affirming each other’s gender choices, but we were too busy trying to figure out where Mary Boone was going to lead the gallery scene, and how much influence Leo Castelli still had. Sorry for the memory lane, but I can’t imagine a crew like we had back then existing now. Everything, everything seems to now revolve around these gender identity issues. I’ve worked under very strong women who took no shit from anyone, in a very male field, but these days I see strong young women suddenly declare themselves non-binary and adopt bland plural pronouns. I think of those kickass friends and bosses I had back then. I don’t know what would have become of them in this environment.

[–][deleted] 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In today's society they celebrate ideological inflexibility. It's the age old question of can you respect other's opinions or do you gain your moral superiority by shaming and silencing them if they don't agree with yours. A healthy democracy encourages debate. To me, women is sex-based, not an id to assume by males. Being male negates ever being a woman, though they are free to live as their idea of a woman. TRAs claim that they want to have a discussion but only if the starting point is that trans women are women. How is that any different than a religious cult saying that we can have a discussion about religion only if you believe their god is real? Does it make it better if it's not Scientology and is instead a more mainstream faith? Gender ideology is a religion dead set on burning nonbelievers.

[–][deleted] 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Welcome to the Great Tectonic Shift. I think John McWhorter (linguist at Columbia, I'm a fan of his podcasts) said it best when he described himself as a "cranky classic liberal" who now finds himself a centrist-verging-on-conservative, because the whole terrain shifted underneath him. I'm GenX and pretty staunchly independent, but I've experienced a similar sensation -- my basic ethos is the same, but I'm labeled very differently now by detractors.

I've been trying to put together some kind of mental narrative around how all of this changed so suddenly . . . some r/GC users helped fill in the blanks recently. Mini data-set:

  • Social media goes mainstream, 2008-ish

  • Obergefell v. Hodges (LGB marriage equality), 2015

  • Caitlyn Jenner comes out as trans, 2015

There seems to be a general feeling that 2015 (in the US) was the year that TRA and ideological purity really leapt to the fore in media and liberal online spaces. The alarming part, as you mention, is that critical thinking seems to have simultaneously gone down the shitter, and there's this naive sense that "only the Right can be authoritarian" (Stalin much?) and other baseless weirdness.

I'm hoping it's mostly a novel combination of social media saturation and righteous idealism. But as it's affecting health policy, research, and now (in a very visible way) women's rights and free speech and publishing and God knows what else, screw it.

[–]GenderCriticalOnly 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Not to go too ridiculous, but years ago back in the Harry Potter fandom we used to discuss whether you could have a Hufflepuff dystopia (imagining Voldemort being sorted into the different houses and still rising to power was very much the thing at the time), and what that would look like. A lot of people seemed to have the idea that you couldn’t have one: that values of equality and fairness and hard work and loyalty somehow couldn’t be corrupted this way. The power of friendship and niceness, right?

I not only disagreed, I was fairly sure it would be the hardest dystopia to fight against, and the most completely intrusive. If people value knowledge and reason, you can reason with them and find facts. If people value courage, you can impress them by standing up for something. If people value power and influence, you can convince them by appealing to their self-interest.

[–]Takseen 13 insightful - 7 fun13 insightful - 6 fun14 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

I always imagine Dolores Umbridge forcing Harry Potter to write "transwomen are women" instead of "I must not tell lies". Got that same authoritarian mantra feeling to it.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Brilliant! Wouldn't have thought of that, but yeah -- what better place to breed extremism than a group with a code of fairness, equality, hard work, loyalty? That's actually really creepy and plausible.

[–]Moirawr 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

For me, and maybe others, in 2014 Leelah Alcorn committed suicide in a very public and devastating way. It got my attention and pushed me to seek out trans stuff. It was (at least what I was hearing back then) exactly the same as gay rights rhetoric. It’s who they are, they can’t change it, denying it makes them suicidal. All very emotional reasons, it was a seamless transition (no pun intended). Problem is none of the logic came with it and the illusion fell apart pretty quick for me. I honestly don’t understand how people are still going along with it at this point... how it got this far when it all crumbles at a glance.

[–]hellamomzilla 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Money from transidentifying wealthy males. Rothblatt and Pritzer.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow. I just read about Leelah -- what a hideous mix of things to suffer as teen. I can see how that would create an unassailable narrative in support of trans issues.

[–]courage2courage 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Regarding social media, I think Tumblr especially has a lot to answer for.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've heard the same . . . was never on Tumblr, but I believe it.

[–]quickbeam 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a straight partnered Gen-X who has never cared about sports I never really encountered a situation where trans rights interfered with my rights so I figured what's the big deal. I think a lot of other X'ers might be in my boat. Just assuming they are for rights because rights are always good, right? But not taking into account that this is a somewhat different situation where one set of rights might be infringed upon by another. I also had no idea that there were people de-transitioning. It seemed like so much trouble to go to that I couldn't imagine people would get hormones or surgery unless they were 100% definitely transgender and had no other choice. Now seeing that some kids are regretting their decision and in some cases the process has been damaging to them, it's really heartbreaking. I'm not sure who in my network I can share this information with safely, but I am going to slowly begin that process. I think we jumped the gun on this as a society. I want to be as respectful as possible to trans-identified people, but this really needs to be reframed as a balancing of rights and trying to find a solution that works for everyone. If that's even still possible!

[–]Rationalmind 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m still pretty young and imo when older people tell me that young people are self-righteous (“they think they know everything”) and stubborn, it’s completely valid criticism. You gain wisdom with age, they don’t know more than you. I am also a classical liberal, which is why I can’t get behind the closed-minded woke-left.

[–]Delia 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am old now and I could be very self righteous, it is an age thing and it is good to hold strong opinions anyway..however I still listened too others and I never harrassed and got more right wing people sacked ever...unlike the activists who have got gender critical feminist sacked from their jobs.

[–]DogeWalker 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

But today I discussed this whole issue with a couple of young people (young men) I work with (I’m in my 60s, they’re 20s)...

Thank you for talking to them. Whether or not they were listening to your points, I think it is really admirable and important to discuss these issues, especially among men, and between generations. Who knows, maybe some of those young people will turn 25 or 30 and think, "Hmm, my coworker woodrup said something about this, and he was actually pretty cool and knew his stuff... maybe I should think about it some more."

[–]RoundFork 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The TRA coolaid started trending in my country’s “woke crowd” last December, thanks to JKR. Thanks to her fantastic reputation, I did an overnight research and went full-GC (cuz you don’t throw someone you love under the bus, just to hop on the bandwagon)

Got to chat with my closest friends before the woke squad got to them, and that was key. The others I haven’t spoken to ON TIME won’t respond to my questions anymore. Freaking social contagion.

[–]Apricot_Ibex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a great discussion.

I think the main problem is that most cultures are still very unaccepting of gender non-conformity. GNC people make others uneasy, and therefore they face a lot of bullying just for being different. People (mostly conservatives) lost their minds in the U.S. even when Target tried to eliminate “boy toy” and “girl toy” designations in their aisles, as if the world would end if a boy picked out a doll or a girl chose a dinosaur, and as if kids haven’t been doing that forever. They were calling it social engineering. Entire colors are off limits to kids if they’re the wrong sex. Many American men still get uncomfortable with pink shirts. “Real men don’t eat quiche.” So much insecurity about gender roles, mostly stemming from misogyny and homophobia.

Meanwhile, the “left” in America (and perhaps most Anglophone countries) is not really that progressive, when considering it is still heavily influenced by these same puritanically rigid/fragile views on gender roles. It takes a long time, generations, to abolish this archaic underlying framework in mainstream culture. Instead of rejecting it, the mainstream American left has taken the easy way (“virtue signaling”) and simply tried to work within it.

According to them: Makeup, dresses, the color pink, long hair, being a sex object, submissiveness, enjoying playing with dolls as a child- that’s for girls/women. They have “lady brains.” If a boy/man acts like this, then he has a “lady brain” and needs to become a girl/woman too. The color blue, no makeup, buzz cuts, dominance, objectifying others but not oneself, enjoying playing with a tool kit or trucks- that’s for boys/men. Girls/women who are into these things need to “transition” to become a man. All of this ideology is extremely regressive at its core. Many gender noncomforming people have spoken out against being “trans-ed.” It really is extremely offensive. Add in autogynophiles and other mentally ill narcissists, who may not even be gender noncomforming, and they will take advantage of all of this and get off on subjecting women to their demands and getting “validated.”

Combine all this with enduring homophobia and misogyny, even if it’s now more subtle to our contemporary sensibilities. How many decades has it taken for the most basic gay rights to be grudgingly accepted? Why does the mainstream American Left back openly, savagely misogynistic pornographers (google Hustled by the Left)? The virtue signaling thing is a shallow and easy way to get head pats for those who want to distance themselves from the negative aspects of the past without actually putting in the work to change things, exercising their brains with some critical thinking, or sticking their neck out by expressing truly controversial views. It’s trendy- porn is trendy, “transtrendering” is in vogue, etc. When we allow this, we get Emilia deCaudin, a white male identifying as a woman who has taken a spot in an election running as “female district leader” and “female state committee member.” Because of the virtue signaling ideology, it doesn’t matter that he is muscling out an African American woman for a chance at the spot. His being MtoF transgender means he is more important and it’s cool to support him at all costs.

Obviously there are tons of other examples, including their repeated dismissal of concerns over trans bathroom policies and women’s sports. I am not conservative at all, don’t give 2 shits if a guy wants to wear a dress, but he’s not a woman and he shouldn’t go into the women’s bathroom or play on a woman’s team. How ridiculous only conservatives and rad fems are saying this, if for very different ideological reasons.

[–]Shizuki79 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fellow male and long time lurker checking in. While never participating in discussions, I've been quietly reading along since basically its inception. There is hope. I know many people who, in private, share my feelings about the issue at hand. Not that I or they have any issues with the trans-folk, that's not it at all. But behind closed doors, we agree that "trans rights" coming at the expense of actual women is not okay in the least. Of course, such a thing can not be discussed out in the open, out of fear of censure, but you'd be surprised how many people are opening their eyes. I'm not sure what I was actually trying to say when I started writing this post. I guess it's that all hope for sanity is not lost yet. I give you an example of this, that happened recently:

I work for a decently large government corporation in Canada. The type of company that's in the public eye 24/7. Last year, as new management took over, in an attempt to be more "inclusive", every single female only space got converted into a PC "gender neutral" space. Bathrooms, change rooms, locker rooms, showers, the whole deal. It didn't take two weeks until there was such a shitstorm brewing that not only did we make it onto the local news, but also a good amount of female employees threatened to resign and leave over it. I'd post the news article, but I'd like to remain somewhat anonymous here. While a not insignificant amount of employees shrugged their shoulders over it, not seeing the big deal, the rest started open conversations about it sharing and expressing their opinions to management and everyone else. Why should only women be the ones to suffer from this ordeal? Why not take the male spaces? Anyways, I realized just how many people were NOT okay with such an incredibly dumb move on the companies behalf. Even my male coworkers agreed that it's not only dangerous, but also incredibly backwards. Long story short, after an insane amount of backlash, management reversed their decision (wow), and shortly thereafter construction on a third set of bathrooms, change rooms, locker rooms etc. began, so that those who don't conform to either gender can have their own space, which is the only sensible solution to such an issue.

I guess I'm trying to give you some hope. Not everyone drank the cool-aid. Approach this subject with a group of people, and for whatever reason, you get very different answers than trying talk to people one on one.

[–]woodrup[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That’s about the worst title for this thread... and I’m the one that wrote it. Sounds like an invitation to spoiling for a fight. Ah well... Just thought I’d share an interesting day.

[–]BraveAndStunningTERF 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m constantly reminded of Winston in 1984 being instructed on 2+2=5. It’s not enough to simply accept that 5 is the right answer, because you’re told it is, or to escape the pain of denying it. It’s vital that you actually believe that 2+2=5. It’s the only way that the whole house of cards can be maintained.

Chilling so say the least.

[–]AngryRadish 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This was a nice read.Thank you for your respect. It's important to remember that for young people, their social circles are often worth more to them than ideals. If all your friends say the sky is green and curse those who disagree, well you're left will little recourse if you aren't willing to socially transplant yourself and potentially lose your job. I know I've bitten my tongue more than a few times.

[–]respectmyidentity 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've met trans people IRL and I know others have commented they have too. That experience, along with the non-sensical reactions of some of my (now ex) friends made me wake up. I'm an assault survivor so for my "friends" to not get how their disregard for women's rights AND especially the TRA rhetoric being so anti-consent (genital preferences are transphobic) really made me understand viscerally how fucked up this all is. Most people are followers, that is not their fault and followers have a purpose too. It's up to us to lead them to the right conclusion. I think as more young people meet trans people and really understand how it makes them feel to be around those people they will start looking into it more and really thinking about it. It's not that I have a problem with trans people, it's more that I see a lot of trans people doing it for the special attention and affirmations they receive when they take on that persona. I'm talking wealthy, white, Harvard, Amherst, Smith educated trans folks here. They are not a disadvantaged group.

[–]Delia 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am in sixties, I was a second wave feminist, what I wanted more than anything those years was support for us from men.

[–]RestingWitchface 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly I feel happy when I hear that men are listening to us and standing up for us. I appreciate your support.

[–]1352DogwoodAvenue 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

One of the first things I did after GC went down was download all of Magdalen Bern's videos. If they ever go down I can put them back up somewhere.

[–]Smurfette 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How did you do this? I can’t figure out how so that it isn’t just a link back to the original.

[–]al-Amira 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can use jDownloader for instance, or one of numerous websites created for the purpose of downloading content from youtube and other various platforms.

[–]1352DogwoodAvenue 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just Google "YouTube to MP4".

[–]motionlessoracle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I honestly think being on saidit will be a blessing for GC feminism. We will encounter more males here on account of being less free to ban people simply for being male and having an opinion.

Males are the people who need to peak next, because they have the societal power to oppose the men-who-feel-like-women-inside. JKR won us the women of the world. Now the men need to see.

[–]Jont_K 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not an old man yet, but no longer a young man, I take solace in knowing that this younger generation will themselves get older and be replaced by a younger one that will hold them in similar contempt. This I know, the fun is guessing why they'll hold them in contempt, will the new generation be entirely reactionary or will they go even further down this rabbit hole? Either way I welcome the schadenfreude.