all 35 comments

[–]Camberian 41 insightful - 2 fun41 insightful - 1 fun42 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

The casual acceptance of visual violence by women per se is what horrifies me much more. I recently witnessed a discussion amongst authors where a suggested cover contained casual extreme violence/harm of a woman (think something similar to dumping acid on a woman) and several women found it hilarious. We are talking of a romance. There were a few contrarian voices, but in general people thought it was so incongruous that it was laughable. A joke.

I don't get that.

[–]firebird 24 insightful - 2 fun24 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Reminds me of that X-men billboard a couple of years ago. Sure, you already know beforehand that there's going to be violence in a movie like that, but why put up a massive billboard of a woman being strangled? If violence continues to be portrayed that casually all around us, society as a whole is just going to be numb to it. We're already down that path and it scares me to be honest.

[–]Camberian 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. And the case I refer to was worse than that. The violence on the cover was entirely removed from the content of the book. It was picked because the author thought it's funny, not for any intrinsic relation to plot or characters. And no one found any of this noteworthy. Sometimes I wonder just in which cloud-cuckoo-land these women live that they are not aware that what they think is incongruous is something many, many women experience first-hand.

[–]VioletRemi 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (13 children) haven't seen japanese media yet.

[–]Camberian 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

I have. No problem with that. It's something you expect there.

It's the fact that there are educated women, who don't realise that such an activity is something which is being done to other women and hence horrific, that kills me. It's as if they live in sort of a la-di-da-land, where everything is just peachy and fine, and don't anymore notice reality.

[–]VioletRemi 21 insightful - 4 fun21 insightful - 3 fun22 insightful - 4 fun -  (11 children)

Kills me there is that they are developed country, but living like 3rd world muslim countries society-wise, and in all media women are depicted as a piece of meat, and there even whole genres of media/art/games about humiliating women. Misogyny at it finest.

expect there

Expected should not be a norm, thought.

[–]Camberian 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

Kills me there is that they are developed country, but living like 3rd world muslim countries society-wise

You lost me there. What do you mean by that?

Expected should not be a norm, thought.

I wouldn't say Manga are the norm, and Japan definitely is a culture one can't compare to Western cultures just like that. So, when I read Manga I know what to expect. It stuns me when women of my own general cultural sphere show that they don't even know that assault and battery of women is still very much a thing.

[–]VioletRemi 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

If you grow up in this culture, you are thinking it is norm. In Iraq (or Iran, I dont remember) there were times when women were asking to beat themselves as they "did something wrong" like showed face or so. Same is here as well, people grown up in this misogyny and thinking it is a norm. There were a lot of women who were fighting against suffregettes as well. Casual people need a big kick (or advertisements) to become active.

What do you mean by that?

Well, how society treat women, how they treat gay people, lesbians (and trans). In manga they all time sexualized and drawn, but in real life gay men can be pushed to sterilyzing themselves, lesbians can be separated or even pushed to straight marriages, trans people pushed to be sterilized as well. It is very hard for women to get anywhere or get any good treatment comparable to men. And if you check their goverment, when man is speaking - everyone silent and listening, when woman is speaking - everyone just ignoring her and talk with each other.

[–]VioletRemi 34 insightful - 3 fun34 insightful - 2 fun35 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Not sure why liberal feminism is called "feminism" at all. Because "it is for everyone and individual equal rights for everyone". And in general it is looking only at middle class white women (plus what is in trend, like transwomen nowadays) who are fine with patriarchical family values and practices. It should be called "everyonism".

[–][deleted] 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Agree completely. Liberal feminism does not represent me or speak for me at all.

Reddit actually did us a favor by kicking GC out. Pissed off women is how you start a movement.

[–]VioletRemi 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Liberal feminism does not represent me

It is because when they try to represent everyone - they representing no one.

[–]materialrealityplz 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think they just follow the trend. It was trendy to hate on Twilight for whatever reason. Now it's trendy to be pro porn.

Actual feminism is really tough (some people won't even quit Reddit, lmao).

[–]yousaythosethings 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Still waiting for the black trans lives matter feminists to publicly recognize the connection to prostitution. I will be waiting a long time, I think. . . .

Honestly, I hated Twilight a lot in the day and a little while ago I reflected on why that was. Because it came to symbolize something that foolish and silly young girls and women were into and I was above that shit. That was the liberal feminist influence: hate on the interests of young girls and women. In reality, Twilight was not a great literary work but it was mostly harmless good fun for the girls and women who followed it and to denigrate them for that is pathetic. Mea culpa!

[–]DifferentAirGC 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

mostly harmless good fun

Edward is like 100 years older than Bella and the werewolf dude falls in love with a baby.

[–]yousaythosethings 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've seen the first movie and haven't read any of the books in full. I'm judging based on how I heard those who I know who have read the books discuss it as well as those who vehemently despite it discussed it. I also like the ASOIAF books where Sansa is 11 and Daenerys is 14 (though admittedly GRRM wished he had aged up the characters). I don't think they or Twilight are making the world more pedophilic when despite the cannon age differences the fans aren't thinking of the characters are literally the ages they are supposed to be. I heard about the werewolf imprint on a baby thing and I heard people say it was weird, but again I don't see real world consequences resulting from that. Is it weird and bad writing? Sure. Societally harmful? Not really seeing it.

[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've never understood the double standard of policing the fictional content that women tend to enjoy (romance novels, tv shows like 13 Reasons Why, fanfiction, etc.), while giving a pass to porn and the real violence and human trafficking behind it. It's almost as if finding new woke ways to mock women's interests is more important than condemning abuse.

[–]meranii 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's a different generation now and gen z is honestly FUCKED. Young women now are so brainwashed by the patriarchy in the extremely sexist new media (youtube, insta, twitter, tiktok, onlyfans) where any semblance of real feminism has been pushed out in favor of choice feminism, it's all been set up by fake-liberal (actual alt-right libertarian) tech bros (=men) with ads and sponsorships run by exactly the same men. Equality for women has been eroded in the last 10 years, not by women but by a manipulative system still run almost entirely by men.

Every girl wants to be a fucking Kardashian clone with 5 pounds of make up on her face, fake lashes, a big cleavage and ass while spouting brain dead slogans that seek to find empowerment in selling themselves, so of course they think men looking and acting like that is also normal. They think a toothless feminism that "doesn't demonize men" is the height of fairness because that's what men say is acceptable as they don't feel threatened by it (unlike by radfem ideas), while these guys jerk off to braindead bimbo women and hate them at the same time. Misogyny doesn't stop even when you turn yourself into the willing "cool girl" fuckdoll men say they desire, they'll just call you a thot and hate you anyway.

You can't blame Twilight too much for it, it was one Mormon woman's masturbatory (but still G-rated) fantasy and of course men made fun of it because it wasn't by them or for them, but it was also just really bad plot- and quality-wise. Still, it was extremely tame and at least woman-centered compared to all the male-written fantasy of the '80s, '90s and aughts, where women were basically flesh prizes for the main characters to win. Romanticizing abuse is something men have wanted women to do for centuries now and somehow progress has been turned into "women now do the same thing men have always done, which is to put down extraordinary and outspoken women" (verbally while men also do it physically), instead of "women fight for women's voices to be heard". The root of all evil is women still working under patriarchy to seek approval from and cater to men that just happen to come in all shapes and genders now, yet in the end they're still the same old horny & hateful men that want you to shut up and look pretty.

[–]StrictlyDykely 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I just wish they would take photos where their tongues are in their mouths and they don’t look stoned.

[–]throwawayanylogic 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

They've injected so much filler in their lips I think it's impossible for them to do so.

[–]StrictlyDykely 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It makes me so sad, I work with a woman who is about 23 and she’s already has done floofing up of her lips and other fillers on her face and minor Botox. At 23. She’s not out there living her life, she’s taking photos of herself and thinking about her body all day, and directing a lot of money toward it, yikes.

[–]Cat13 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Still a better love story than fifty shades of grey.

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

That is considered as love story? Wow.

[–]throwawayanylogic 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The irony being that 50 Shades began as Twilight fan-fiction.

[–]-thedarkhorse- 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I really really miss Twilight, sparkly vampires are so much easier to deal with. On the bright side Twilight has completely faded away and so will the trans trend.

[–]Finnegan7921 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

"They were worried that girls who read the book would grow up to think the way Edward acted was normal and that these girls would end up in abusive relationships."

I guess they also thought that the girls reading the book were too stupid to realize that a)it was fiction, and b)they'd never grow up to date a vampire.

[–]spinningIntelligence 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fiction impacts the way we see the world; that is the point of it. Yes, it's nowhere near the nightmarescape of porn, but it should still be evaluated critically.

[–]Thatstealthygal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tbh I would have adored the first book as a teen, I know it. The sequels probably not so much. It has the same mopey gothic vibe of a lot of romantic fiction that was around in the 70s.

[–]Anna_Nym 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The criticism of 50 Shades of Grey seemed similar to me, too. It seemed to be more about being Not Like Other Girls and crapping all over what other women liked than about genuine content concerns. People who recommend Secretary or Story of O as alternatives are not people seriously concerned about the conflation of abuse and consensual BDSM.

Current progressive critiques of art and policy seem to be very rigid and mostly interested in dividing art into Good and Bad. I've seen a lot of liberal critics compare it to fundamentalist approaches. Once something is slotted as Good, it can't be realistically critiqued... at most it may get the occasional "your fave is problematic" type comment. Once something is Bad, it needs to be cancelled.

Because sex workers and sex work are classified as Good (SWERF is also a slur, although not one with the widespread use or power of TERF), porn must also be Good, regardless of what it actually consists of.

[–]Veneficca 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Friend and I were just talking about past furors over the lyrics of Blurred Lines and Baby, It's Cold Outside. Liberal feminists were so concerned with consent and boundaries then! Now, a man can tell a lesbian to take his girldick and crickets

[–]WhyDoesHeDoThat[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not a coincidence that the whole girldick and bathroom debate really started gaining traction after MeToo. That was a huge movement of woman banding together and standing up for their boundaries and men reacted with a movement to tear them down.

Now libfems are occupied with being liked by men or in other words, making sure men don't think they're TERFs.