Trans women face potential women’s rugby ban over safety concerns

submitted by Echoofmiles from theguardian.com

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[–]greenish 76 insightful - 2 fun76 insightful - 1 fun77 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

This is good, I hope it goes through, in this and other sports.

But notice how they refer to females as "ciswomen" and males as "males".

[–]Killer_Danish 49 insightful - 3 fun49 insightful - 2 fun50 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Truth. Men don't get called "penis-havers" or "ejaculators" or "testicle-owners"... Almost like men don't have to kowtow to the trans-cult or something...

[–]Aquadog 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

PoP-People of Penis.

[–]catoboros 33 insightful - 3 fun33 insightful - 2 fun34 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

In the last paragraph, the article inconsistently refers to trans men as trans males in comparison to males. Trans men are female, of course. This confusion is another consequence of the linguistic muddle promoted by TRAs in an attempt erase any language that might contradict them. Newspeak, anyone?

[–]yishengqingwa666 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They have stolen women's words, the words we use to define ourselves.

[–]Veneficca 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And notice the headline. Not "Women face safety concerns" but "Trans women face potential ban." Shows what's more important - hurt trans feelings compared to broken bones and ruptured spleens.

[–]inneedofspace 70 insightful - 2 fun70 insightful - 1 fun71 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

"The Guardian can reveal that in a 38-page draft document produced by its transgender working group, it is acknowledged that there is likely to be “at least a 20-30% greater risk” of injury when a female player is tackled by someone who has gone through male puberty. The document also says the latest science shows that trans women retain “significant” physical advantages over biological women even after they take medication to lower their testosterone."

If only the olympics would stop pandering and admit they also have the science to ban transwomen from women's sports.

Edit: As expected transwomen are crying and whining because what about all the tall fat muscular women aren't they just as manly without the bone density, bone structure, cardiovascular structure/system of men and natural female advantages. According to that logic we'd also have to create a new class for men who are muscular, taller and larger? Doesn't make sense the fittest are supposed to be there, it still isn't fair to force women to play against men.

[–]unexpectedly_local 31 insightful - 10 fun31 insightful - 9 fun32 insightful - 10 fun -  (1 child)

The Guardian can reveal

So what can't they reveal?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Advertisers? So much for relying on their user base to fund their journalism.

[–]GConly 45 insightful - 2 fun45 insightful - 1 fun46 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

For an example, H Mouncey managed to break a woman's leg in a tackle in Australian rules football. Totally unrepentant.

Callum has already been involved in a tackling with a woman called Jo who had her leg broken when he and her legs were tangled up in the tackle . She was playing for a Canberra team Ainslie. She had to retire from the game because of it he will again no doubt be the cause of injuries with the fact of his weight and size

I've seen it somewhere that it was as her femur but don't quote me on it.

Of course it's dangerous having a bloody great lump of man ploughing into women.

My favourite quote from another TIM rugby player described a female opponent 'folding like a deckchair' when he tackled her. Asshole.

[–]LilianH 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And in relation to the Mouncey story, there was a media article that included that fact and then later edited their story to remove it to make the article more sympathetic towards him.

[–]bellatrixbells 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that's H Mousey, not Mouncey, no ?

[–]au_dela 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Another example: Fallon Fox gloating over "smacking up TERFs".

[–]RadioSilence 43 insightful - 3 fun43 insightful - 2 fun44 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Shocker, playing a contact sport with men is dangerous for women.

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Is this the report? Where are the other 37.99 pages?

[–]RadioSilence 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a draft of the report, let's see how much is published in the end.

[–]madderthanhell 30 insightful - 2 fun30 insightful - 1 fun31 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Earth-shattering news: common sense prevails (for now)

[–]XxwomanxX 28 insightful - 2 fun28 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, you mean all those anime loving, sissy porn watching, choker wearing folx with prostates still retain their anatomical privilege....

pretends to be shocked

[–]MezozoicGay 27 insightful - 3 fun27 insightful - 2 fun28 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I am not sure why women are tested for testosterone in sports and not allowed to have more than 5.0 nm/liter (on average it is 1.2-2.0 for women athletes who are not heavily taking testosterone), as it is counted as steroid and doping, but transwomen are fine with their 7.0-10.0 or more. And that is not speaking about bigger lungs, bigger heart, different bone and muscles structure (it is not a coincidence that 16 years old school boys can beat women olympic records with only a bit of training in most types of sport).

[–]wicklesnarf 18 insightful - 4 fun18 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

Comments from the thread on r/transgender. They're claiming this is anti-science.

Also, last time I checked, the 'latest science' was very much on the side of trans inclusion and how someone identifies, not on biological sex.

It sounds like junk science dressed up as science. We can call it the science of convenience.

Surprise, Guardian at it again with rubbing their quack science bollocks in our faces. It's all out bigotry.

Yeah that sounds like some serious junk science... is it peer reviewed? What’s their methodology?

On why someone asking about skeletal structure is being downvoted:

skeletal structure has long been used to support bogus and transphobic claims.

Also, anthropology has actually changed a lot and now anthropologists say that they can't tell the difference between men and women skeletons anymore

There are no transwomen with a skeletal structure that cannot be found in a cis woman (somewhere)

It's cracking me up they're using the fact that they as individuals are out of shape to say transwomen are more delicate than women:

my stepdaughter is 6 inches shorter, weighs 30 pounds less, but is stronger than I am

I need scissors to open packages I used to be able to tear open. I've struggled opening jars.

Meanwhile here I am never having been able to do a single pull-up in my life.

There's also a lot of personal anecdotes and some studies posted about decreased performance after transitioning...and they're all about running speed.

They compare transwomen's natural advantages to the natural athletic advantages of black people (?) to try to poke holes:

By these standards we should also ban black people from sports.

Pretty sure anyone playing against Shaq had a 20-30% higher risk of injury. We should have banned Shaq. His genes were unfair.

[–]Aquadog 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

A lot of people are pulling the height card. "I've read a lot of studies on how men are stronger due to a height advantage, but I'd be curious to see what it would be with people of the same height."

Yes, height is the ONLY possible advantage.

[–]LasagnaRossa 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Someone has missed many anatomy classes. I guess they don't know men and women have a different fat distribution and muscle percentage.

But nooo, the sex is all in your head, sure.

[–]luckystar 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

skeletal structure has long been used to support bogus and transphobic claims.

"Your doctor is a TERF"

[–]EnnuiOz 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

FFS, here is that opening jars argument again. My hands are so small that I can't even reach an octave on a piano which also means that I can't get a good grip on large jars. This has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with hand size....and, I can open that jar of gherkins. I turn it upside down, use a butter knife to 'pop' the seals and then turn it up the right way and bingo!

Maybe when TIMs talk about being weak they are actually just referring to being feeble minded.

E: Just to add 'even anthropologists can't tell the difference'. Bullshit, just bullshit. I studied Anthropology for a while as an undergrad and the female pelvic structure is obviously visibly different to the males. This argument sounds just like the 'even gynos can't tell the difference' bullshit.

[–]kwallio 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course they're racist. WTF. Also basketball is in theory anyway a non-contact sport. You're not supposed to tackle people in basketball.

[–]ladyreason 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've seen those. Such eyeroll.

Dude. The fact that you, personally, are a badly out of shape unusually short overweight weakling of a biological male does not mean that your average transwoman would-be professional women's sports playing athlete is.

[–]bellatrixbells 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Also, anthropology has actually changed a lot and now anthropologists say that they can't tell the difference between men and women skeletons anymore" Well, given that they're saying males can be women and females can be men it kind of makes sense that science couldn't tell, but isn't that like a textbook definition of a circular reasoning ? "There are no transwomen with a skeletal structure that cannot be found in a cis woman (somewhere)" "Somewhere" as in like this one woman in that village by the Rockies ?

As for the rest, wow. Your comments are on point too.

[–]bellatrixbells 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well duh.
I have to say, though, despite the forcibly inclusive language that reduces us to "cis" again, this is a step in the right direction. Those are good news and reassuring to me.

[–]Doobeedoo661 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Good news! Transmen eligible to play full contact rugby amongst cismales. My only concern is whether they forget they’re transmen once sports induced brain injury compromises their memory. I bet transwomen are happy for their transbrethren or is this news story all about the transwomen.....again?

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The next olympics will be the cherry on top.

[–]Finnegan7921 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There is a Brazilian volleyball player who is a TIM. When the world gets a load of this guy spiking the ball onto women's heads and they cannot stop it, I think that will peak a large amount of people. Tiffany Abreu is his name. He was mediocre at best in a lower level men's league, transitions and starts to dominate the Brazilian women's league. The pictures are terrifying. It is like a teenager playing with small children and giving zero fucks how hard he goes at them.

[–]wicklesnarf 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

He was mediocre at best in a lower level men's league, transitions and starts to dominate

Huh, funny how that seems to be a trend. Just a coincidence, I'm sure...

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow just watched some clips and he's a beast. I think about how much effort athletes put into getting tiny advantages, like Lance Armstrong with the epo and all this guy had to do was get some bolt-ons and drop his T.

The rugby decision will have ripple effects. Please let common sense prevail over narcissism.

[–]denverkris 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is great news, although they still use a lot of bullshit terms in the article like "assigned sex at birth", ffs.

[–]BarleySammich 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good!

[–]Overdrive 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is one of those "no shit sherlock" things that I for the life of me can't wrap my head around. We really need to do extensive studies that take months or years for this?

Have you seen some of these athletes? Have you seen what some TiM fighters have done to woman fighters? We've been right here this whole time going, uuuuuh she sure looks stronger doc.

And they're like. Let them in until we have proven otherwise! It's frustrating. I get the need for studies. It's still frustrating and it's going to continue to be frustrating for ALL of us as we are just absolutely bombared with stuff we already kinda knew.

[–]EnnuiOz 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Rugby Union and League are very popular sports in Australia. I am more of an Australian Rules fan (hence Callum Mouncey being my usual point of reference) however, I do have a passing interest in both of the other codes.

I think what really gets my goat is when TRAs bring up examples of some South Pacific Islander women as examples of women who are taller and more muscular than the average caucasian women. Yes, they are sometimes bigger and stronger but they are still women and, as such, don't have the other underlying biological advantages as men (lung size, bone density- you know the drill). In addition these women have often sacrificed speed over bulk (much like in the mens' code,) so the smaller, more agile women are often nimble (not sure thst's the word I am looking for) enough to avoid or outpace their tackles.

I don't think I am putting my point across as strongly as I could but, to take my partner and myself as examples. She is smaller lighter and far more agile than me. In a hypothetical situation I would probably be in the ruck with the other larger, heavier, stronger women whilst she would be skipping down the sidelines laughing at us as the ruck broke up knowing there was no way that we would e able to catch her. However, in the case of a man, he would also likely be in the ruck and be able to push and flatten all of us larger females and therefore win the ball for his team - along with potentially injuring others in the scrum.

I'm hoping that someone with more experience in the codes can chip in and explain things better. I know nothing about American football so I can't really relate the danger in terms of game play with regards to that code.

E: There are also always going to be outliers, look up Jonah Lomu (sp?) playing against England. But, at least they were all still males.

[–]Doobeedoo661 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You’re absolutely right. There’s a rather unhinged transwoman called Kirsti Miller from Broken Hill, a former athlete, who’s constantly posting images of Dame Valerie Kasanita Adams to suggest she’s no different to a biological man who’s suppressed his testosterone levels.

I’m often staggered by the blatant racism and misogyny Miller spews about Dame Valerie Adams. Miller never addresses who Dame Valerie Adams is, or her incredible achievements in his feed, I’m assuming to avoid the barrage of hate it may attract from Adams fans.

Kirsti is so vehemently poisonous, even Mouncey blocked him on Twitter so I guess that’s saying something. I’d love to report Miller for racism and misogyny but I don’t use Twitter. Perhaps it’s better to allow others to see just how transwomen view Pacific Islanders.

[–]Overdrive 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's just it. There's going to be outliers, and freaks of nature within both females and males. Sports aren't inherently fair in that way. We still make it our job to keep the playing field as level as possible, and any male has that automatic oomph on any female in multiple ways. Are there women who could wipe the board with certain male athletes? Sure. Yet I don't see how we can fairly be like "Oh this one here, he was a real wimp when he played as a male he can play." The matter is that in general, there are risks and advantages. A lot of trans women athletes were actually male competitors before as well. Not trying to be mean, just fair we can't consider the outliers as a means to open up the ring to everybody.

[–]bellatrixbells 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like that the trans men can be allowed in the dangerous male division IF THEY SIGN A CONSENT FORM. Indicating that they are agreeing to be put in danger by the MALES in the team.
Are the women on the women's team signing a consent form to indicate that they agree to be put in danger by the MALE who demands entry in the team ?