all 40 comments

[–]Spikygrasspod 61 insightful - 3 fun61 insightful - 2 fun62 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

No one is asking you to ask for forgiveness, and there is no atheism requirement. You are welcome.

We will not refrain from critiquing misogynistic and sexist practices wherever we find them. You've probably noticed that much of our critique is focused on western culture and trans rights activism. Still. Sometimes we talk about other cultures and practices. Do you believe that this critique constitutes hate and vitriol, or are you referring to something else when you mention hate and vitriol?

Radical feminists are unlikely to agree that any enactment of gender norms is entirely 'free'. One of the main jobs of our feminist critique is to analyse the ways in which culture, violence, economics and politics result in systematic reductions in our physical and mental freedom. Not all GCs are radical feminists. However, there is significant overlap. You are likely to encounter people here who are deeply sceptical of any claim that we truly, freely engage in feminine gender norms that systematically disadvantage us, or that the approval and nice feelings we get from conforming with gender norms constitute any form of 'power'. That goes for western femininity, too, not just for women practicing Islam.

You can ignore any conversation or thread that is uncomfortable for you. You do not need to engage with any specific person. You can participate as much or as little as you want, in whatever topics interest you. Welcome and I hope you find something of value here.

[–]Terfenclaw 33 insightful - 1 fun33 insightful - 0 fun34 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It depends. There's such a wide range of ways to be a practicing muslim, from the secular to the more extreme. However, I think that any ideology that coerces women into a specific (usually subordinate) gender role and punishes them for deviating from it is fundamentally incompatible with radical feminism.

[–]lefterfield 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm Christian. There are arguments all the time that radfems can't be religious. You can ignore it and still participate, or try to understand where people are coming from when they say it. If neither is an option for you, there is also the possibility of creating a group for Muslim women who want to support radical feminism - but I would urge you to participate a bit here first. You're never going to find a group of people that agree with you 100% on everything(or anything), and being able to listen to opposing views without taking it personally or feeling that you need to change your own views is a good skill to have.

[–]Stormweather 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can be GC, but not feminist. Almost all religions (especially the abrahamic ones like christianity, islam and judaism) are based on male supremacy. Their misogyny is written as "god given" in all their holy books. It begins with bullshit like "Eve" as being a mere extention (as a body part) of Adam and (of course) being seduced by the devil. When I read shit like that I'm happy to be an atheist.

[–]_UngodlyFruit_ 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Non-religious GC woman here. I think you have every right to be in this community. What someone chooses to believe in is their own personal business, and provided they don't push their views onto others, I don't see why it should be an issue.

It makes sense to me why some practicing muslim women, and religious women in general, might relate more to GC thinking. There's more of an intrinsic understanding that men and women are indeed different, and that we have things like sex-segregated spaces for good reason. Women who practice a religion that places importance on limiting interaction between the sexes are disproportionately negatively affected by the erasure of women's spaces.

[–]Yayme 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hey. I'm Catholic. Welcome home :-)

Just ignore the anti-religious stuff, and you'll be fine. Or maybe even listen to it? I know I believe in a higher power, but I'm certain what it is. LOL. Maybe we should look in to Buddhism?

[–]Shinjin_Nana 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The Buddha had to be convinced that women could become nuns and achieve nirvana. He thought of women as temptresses that fouled men.,2666,0,0,1,0#.Xx3eqFVKiUk

The Eight Heavy Duties are:

  1. A nun, even if she has been ordained for 100 years, must respect, greet and bow in reverence to the feet of a monk, even if he has just been ordained that day. (Monks pay respect to each other according to their seniority, or the number of years they have been ordained.)

There is no Feminism in religion.

[–]Doobeedoo661 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was raised Russian orthodox and I’m fascinated by religion, everyone’s religion. Fortunately, religion wasn’t heavily imposed upon me while growing up, allowing my curiosity to explore other religions. Religion has not been good to women but can enrich a woman on a personal level.

If your faith is strong, there’s not a thing anyone in Gender Critical can say that would fracture your beliefs. Stay firm and be glad that there’s still a tiny little speck within the WWW that allows women, from all walks of life and faith, to express themselves freely, despite their personal differences.

[–]SharpTomorrow 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I don't think you can believe in what the Koran or the Hadith says about women and call yourself a feminist, no. It might not be an inclusive position but at some point, there is some amount of cognitive dissonance. Being a muslim means believing that the Koran is the perfect and final word of god. It's not subject to interpretation like the bible.

A good amount of the pervasive misogynistic and sexist practices today originate from the religions of the book.

[–]OrneryStruggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Unfortunately I think you're right, but I also feel like GC spaces should accommodate some level of "moral impurity" on feminist issues to really reach/help liberate the most women. It takes some women a long time to even start to understand their intrinsic worth as human beings and I don't want to discourage any woman from reading/participating here unless she is being abusive/misogynistic herself in her comments.

[–]SharpTomorrow 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Unfortunately I think you're right, but I also feel like GC spaces should accommodate some level of "moral impurity" on feminist issues to really reach/help liberate the most women.

Either GC is a radical movement or it isn't. That's all. Compromise led libfems to become Islam apologists and defend gender theory.

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I think radical feminism is a radical movement, but my impression of "gender critical" both on reddit and here is more that it is a discussion space which centers the tenets of radical feminism, not that it is a space exclusively for radical feminists. I'd be interested in such a space but I always viewed GC as being more of an anti-censorship women's sub than a strictly radfem sub.

That's why I don't have a problem with women participating who aren't knowledgeable about radical feminism, as long as they are participating broadly following the sub culture and rules.

[–]Marsupial 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nobody's forcing you to give up your belief, but you will have to deal with the fact that people won't make excuses for misogynic behavior just because it's done under a religous or cultural banner. If the way you practice your religion means you're supportive of misogynic practices then it may just be that no, it's not the right place for you. If you do not support misogynic practices, it may be. I also don't believed in washed-out choice feminism, just because a woman claims she does something of free will does not mean she's not oppressed, does not mean she actually does it of free will and does not mean that she's not propagating sexist beliefs that are harmful to other women. As for you personally I obviously have no idea how you practice or what you stand for so whether you fit in? Nobody here will be able to tell you.

I can't speak for everybody but personally I am not inclusive of misogynic behavior and not every community will welcome everybody, that's just something adults have to deal with- you won't get met by applause and participation trophies just for turning up and posting.

[–]PurpleAmathea 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can be gender critical and Muslim in the same way you can be gay and Muslim. That is, there's a contradiction, but people live with contradictions all the time.

I do not think the community needs to temper its criticism of misogyny in religion because of the feelings of religious members. I am religious, discussing the misogyny in my religion is uncomfortable, but that is what this space is for.

Would I be more devout and more "acceptable" to my religious community if I was willing to swallow the party line about how my religion isn't sexist, its actually very pro women's rights? Sure, but it's a lie.

Would I be a more pure GC feminist if I went atheist? Yes, but I'm not willing. My feminism is flawed. But as long as other people aren't shaming or harassing me for it, I am willing to simply acknowledge that, and leave room for others more feminist than I to speak.

[–]Amareldys 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You should speak up.

Also, I would venture almost no women live a life that is 100% gender critical all the time.

[–]Maeven 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Religious criticism will crop up. I'll say that I am very critical of patriarchal religion, which means basically all organized religions. I do not single anything out. There are harsh practices used against women in every culture and usually when that culture has a strong central religion, the religion itself adopts and encourages the practices.

I also understand that the women who are religious (or other things that we criticize) are really just trying to survive and live in a world hostile to women. In my own ways so have I.

There are always ways that we can find to incorporate pro-female sentiment into deeply held beliefs. I'm very proud of the Marian sect of Christianity in their wholehearted embrace of a female religious figures. I am not religious but I have spent time among women who are, and there is beauty in their beliefs too.

As you consider the arguments, I hope you can consider whether or not you see truth in it. If it has truth, let it help you reflect on your relationship with your creator and your faith and strengthen them. As this is only what truth can do. If it is untrue. Please forgive us, we are imperfect creatures and while our efforts here are well intended, we make many mistakes too.

[–]fuckingsealions 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You believe the lived experiences of ex-muslims, but won't believe women who say that they are practicing out of their free will.

I don't really know any religious people, and I wasn't raised in religion. I don't know anyone who was raised irreligiously who then converted and truly has faith, so it is hard for me to understand the idea of lifelong indoctrination going hand in hand with free will.

But I don't know if you were raised in it, or much about what your beliefs are based on this post. I think only you can answer these questions?

Is that empowering or supporting in your eyes?

Again, I'm answering this based on my own beliefs, because I don't know what you believe. I know very little about Islam due to a lack of interest in all religions. To me, individual religious communities are like any other in that they can be a supportive group that's good as a community for its members. I think community, however people find it, is positive.

So without knowing anything about what you personally believe, I'll say this. I do think ANY religion that dictates what its members (especially if it's different for female members) do with their bodies, is unfeminist. Whether that's related to sexuality, reproduction, appearance, or thought. Are you (generic you) as a member of any religion trying to enforce any tenets on others, especially as a means to control women? That's unfeminist.

[–]Shinjin_Nana 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Honestly I would be more shocked if a Muslim woman was TRA compliant and said TWAW, to be honest, instead of gender critical, just due to the facets of her faith.

I find that when you read comments that you don't agree with, that concern Islam, please remember that it's not a personal attack, but one on the belief system.

[–]IamWomanHearMeRoar 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Anyone can! Come join the fun and get ready to PAAARRRRTTTTTTAAAYYYY, for a few minutes and then get on to posting. : )

[–]Lyssa 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hi, welcome to GenderCritical!

While I personally am indeed an atheist I can be and was or am friends with a wide range of religious people and can and have been working/do work with all kinds of religious people (agnostics, Christian, Muslim, Mormon, neopagans, esoterics/"alternative" folks).

What I won't do is exempt any religion/set of ideas from criticism. And there is a lot to criticise about both the history and current practise of Islam... Especially regarding the treatment of girls, women and homosexuals.

However: This does not impact my opinion of any Muslim as a person. Just as I'm willing to point out the abuse and systematic rape of children by Catholic priests (AND point out how Catholic theology and the unquestioned belief of larger parts of the Catholic flok enabled those men....) without being hostile to individual Catholics who might be the most kind and wonderful people I have not yet met and gotten to know.

If that is something you can live with: Happy to share and discuss gender critical ideas! :-)

[–]JustAMom 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm late to your post..... We are all different whether religious, political, etc. Even with our differences we are all the same. Welcome sister.

[–]shveya 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m sorry that you feel alienated and disappointed.

[–]dandeliondynasty 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Of course, welcome friend!

[–]OrneryStruggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think anyone is "allowed" on this forum pretty much, as long as you're not misogynistic/promoting abuse of women etc. But you probably just have to be able to tolerate reading people be rude about your religion. I don't think there's anything wrong with people expressing vitriol against Islam, personally, but I get that it makes religious people uncomfortable to have their beliefs questioned. It's good to learn to live with that discomfort in order to have honest conversations.

If you can't handle hearing insults to your religion because it supersedes your respect for other women and their rights, maybe you don't really care very much about women's rights. Most religions are highly misogynistic and patriarchal, but not every woman is going to have the same negative or positive experiences of any given religion. You may find it difficult, but if you care about having integrity as a human being, it's worth confronting why your religion is so horrible and harmful for so many people, and whether you are complicit in that by practicing and defending it. Do you just excuse parts of your religious text and dogma and practice that denigrate other human beings because you feel they can be ignored, because you feel like it's just an old book, or because you actually think denigrating other human beings is OK? Or have you just had a much different experience of that religion than people in other countries, families or sects?

I can't answer these questions for you but they're worth asking yourself, in my opinion. It's up to you what you do. This shouldn't be a space where women have to shut up about women's issues to prevent offense to others, though - that's why we ended up here after being kicked off reddit.

[–]Fraeulein 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Atheist radfem here to say that I certainly believe you have every right to be here. I'm from an area that is overwhelmingly Baptist. I worked for a family of Muslims for awhile, and honestly, they are far more open-minded than most others around here. Everyone practices religion differently. It's wonderful to see women from different backgrounds being interested in feminism.