all 38 comments

[–]transwoman 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (22 children)

I'm not GC myself but I am transgender so I suppose I could shed some light on this distinction between being transgender and being transracial. I know this is a space for GC views and people so if I'm overstepping, please remove my post, I don't mean to invade this safe space.

So I think where GC and QT agree is that there is a distinction between the concepts of sex and gender, where sex represents the biological distinction between those who are male and those who are female, and gender is a culturally and societally influenced concept of expectations, roles, and expressions that are arbitrarily forced upon the 2 sexes through socialization and other environmental factors.

I think the same thing applies to skin color vs race. Skin color is a biological reality, and race is a concept that's culturally and societally influenced and is forced upon people usually based on an arbitrary distinction of a person's skin color and other environmental factors.

That being said, I'm not really aware of the surgical or medical processes by which someone can change their skin color, my mind goes to melanin levels but I have no clue if melatonin levels can be influenced forcibly like that. But assuming that it's possible for someone to change their natural skin color, I don't really see an issue with it. It would be like if someone dyed their hair from naturally brunette to blond. Socially speaking, that person might be regarded as white or black or whatever artificial category created around by the concept of race, and I don't particularly see a problem with this either, as race is ambiguous to begin with anyway.

I think the truth is that we are more hesitant to accept the idea of transracial people due to the massive amount of historical oppression that have been placed on people of color for centuries through imperialism, slavery, segregation, and overall, systemtic racism. But in reality, presuming there are ways to change your skin color through some kind of medical process, I don't necessarily see an issue, since skin color should be an inconsequential part of a person; it's just like someone's hair or eye color. It's a part of that person, and in our racist society it may have shaped how they grew up and lived, but ultimately it's something that in an ideal world shouldn't be something used to oppress people.

I don't know, what are everyone else's thoughts? Sorry this is kinda long 😬

[–]Astrid2448 39 insightful - 4 fun39 insightful - 3 fun40 insightful - 4 fun -  (9 children)

First of all, I largely agree with your reasoning. But isn’t it interesting how when it comes to non-white people, we can stop and say “hey, given our racist past and present, shouldn’t we be careful about this?” but even suggesting that we do that for women is unacceptable. Black people were literal slaves, considered 3/5 human, and they still got the right to vote before women did. There is so much sexism in our society even today.

Additionally, there is the issue that “should be” isnt the same as “is”. It would be nice if skin color meant nothing. In reality, racism (both conscious and subconscious) is a serious problem and has been for all of human history. When some white person claims to be black and uses that to, for example, speak on behalf of blacks people, take positions in black organizations, win black scholarships, police the speech of black people, and so on, that seems gross.

[–]MarkTwainiac 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Black people were literal slaves, considered 3/5 human, and they still got the right to vote before women did.

In the USA, black men got the vote before women of all races did.

And throughout the world, female people of all races have been slaves of all sorts too; most of the slaves on earth today are female sex, domestic and sweat shop slaves.

In most cultures, girls and women have always been considered less human than boys and men. In many, this has been to a far lesser degree than the 3/5s rule put into place in the US in the 18th century to determine who counts in terms of political representation in the House of Representatives, and for taxation purposes.

[–]transwoman 14 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

Yeah I definitely think it's problematic (kinda overused word but that pretty much encompasses the issue). Natal women should be able to talk about issues that affect them, and it's extremely messed up that much of the trans movement (especially online) seems to shut down people for talking about the basics of biology and oppression of those who are female. It's understandable that many natal women are hesitant about the idea of trans people (trans women especially), given the history of societal, political, and economic oppression they've faced. Honestly, I think the idea of a transracial person is more convincing than the idea of a transgender person.

But I overall believe that my line of thought for transracial people follows through with transgender people, specifically for those of us who undergo medical treatment or surgical processes. While our natal or "natural" sex might not be the one we wish it was, if socially speaking a trans women is regarded as a woman or a trans man is regarded as a man, I don't see a particular issue with this since gender is largely ambiguous anyway, and a person's sex should be considered an inconsequential part of a person.

Edit: I just noticed you added more to your response, so I'll respond to the second part below:

Yeah I agree that the distinction of "should be" and "is" is very important. I do still stand by my points here however, given the ambiguity of the concepts of race and gender in the social and cultural context.

[–]Astrid2448 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Transracial is more convincing because “race” doesn’t really even exist. Obviously there is a difference between a white person and a Nigerian but there isn’t some moment where a person goes from being say, asian to European, genetically.

Again, should be isnt the same as is. Sex is not treated inconsequentially at all, and it often comes with privilege that is made invisible by transitioning in the same way that Donald trump identifying as a black man would make his privilege invisible. And great, I’m happy that women are allowed to talk about their issues according to (some) trans people, but that doesn’t change that trans women are speaking on behalf of women, taking spots in women’s organizations and leadership, telling women how to speak, and taking awards and scholarships designated for women. All of these things were created in the first place because women (as in the female sex, not trans women) have historically been seen as property for sexual gratification and babymaking.

[–]transwoman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

From what I understand, the concept of "gender" doesn't really exist either. Both race and gender are ideas only very loosely based on something real (skin color and sex) and then taken to an extreme set of stereotypes that isn't based in reality. I still stand by the points I made here because of this cultural and social ambiguity that exists for both gender and race.

And again, it's truly an unfortunate reality that we live in a world where much of the trans movement has become a problem, and I agree with much of what you are saying. Trans women shouldn't be speaking on behalf of natal women's issues, and it's absolutely fair to be frustrated with the fact that so many of them feel like they are entitled to doing so. I stand by with you on those issues. There is certainly a lot of overlap to our perspectives.

Because this isn't the debate Saidit community, I think I've probably have overstayed my welcome at this point. I appreciate you considering my line of thought in good faith, this was a really good discussion ☺️

[–]Astrid2448 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender doesn’t exist, but sex does. Trans people are not just trying to change gender-related conversations. Nearly all sex-based protections, interest groups, scholarships, awards, competitions, and so on have been opened to trans women as well. Even sexualities, doctors, sports, the prison system and biology as a whole are under attack by people who insist there is no meaningful difference, that sex is fluid, or that penises can be female organs. This is absolutely a conversation about both, because the community at large is insisting that gender identity should be the deciding factor on everything. I don’t think many people would have an issue with someone simply saying they’d like to socially addressed as a woman but don’t expect to be included in single-sex spaces, women’s organizations, winni women’s awards, etc.

I appreciate talking to you too, and wish there was more of this kind of discussion going on. I agree that we overlap on several things. Have a good day!

[–]BEB 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sir, you revealed your maleness in this sentence:

"a person's sex should be considered an inconsequential part of a person. "

You will never get it. We WOMEN go through all sorts of hell solely because of our female bodies.

To dismiss our sex, and our experiences as the result of our biology, not to mention our experiences because of society's expectation of us because we are female, means you have ZERO idea of what we are, how we feel, or what are LIVED EXPERIENCES are.

Because while women are each very different, and our bodily experiences vary, I guarantee that another women and I could bond over periods, or menopause, or ovarian cysts, or being chased down a dark street, or cornered in an office after work hours, in a way you never can, and your statement just proves it.

The entitlement...

[–]transwoman 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I was saying that a person's sex should not lead one to be treated differently or othered in society. I was not in any way trying to undermine the lived experiences and oppression of natal women. That sentence highlights an end goal of what should be, that sex should be inconsequential, not that it actually is inconsequential when we're discussing sex-based oppression.

I've had a couple of great discussions in this thread with people who took my views at face value and in good faith, rather than extrapolating them into something they aren't, as you have done. I'm not interested in conversations with those unwilling to have an honest discussion. Take care.

[–]anonymale 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was not in any way trying to undermine the lived experiences and oppression of natal women.

That's right, you do it without trying, without understanding that's what you're doing even when told clearly and repeatedly.

[–]transwoman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'll repeat it again:

I've had a couple of great discussions in this thread with people who took my views at face value and in good faith, rather than extrapolating them into something they aren't

In a discussion about transracialism, outlining the historical oppression of people of color does not undermine the highly apparent historical oppression of females. Talking about one does not mean I'm ignoring the other. So much extrapolation.

[–]MarkTwainiac 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the truth is that we are more hesitant to accept the idea of transracial people due to the massive amount of historical oppression that have been placed on people of color for centuries through imperialism, slavery, segregation, and overall, systemtic racism.

You are ignoring, or are oblivious to, the fact that across all cultures in all places on earth over the course of human history "a massive amount of historical oppression has been placed on people of the female sex" through male supremacy; sex and reproductive slavery as well as slavery for labour of other sorts; segregation (purdah; banishment during menstruation; being forced to wear burkas and other forms of mandatory veiling; confinement to home and harems and places like the Magdelene laundries, etc); sex discrimination of all sorts; refusal of all societies until very recently to grant females a vast array of basic human rights (such as the right to vote, own property, obtain an education, apply for certain jobs, enter the professions, to keep one's wages when employed, to make decisions for one's self, to be seen as a person rather than the property of father, husband, brother or other male). In other words, systemic misogyny and sexism.

Skin color is a biological reality

Sex is a biological reality too. For those who are female, sex has far wider reaching ramifications than skin color does. Sexist oppression of, and hatred towards, girls and women simply for being female has been a central feature of every society on earth, no matter the skin colors, ethnicities and racial characteristics of the people in those societies. There's a reason for the expression "only skin deep."

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

That being said, I'm not really aware of the surgical or medical processes by which someone can change their skin color, my mind goes to melatonin levels but I have no clue if melatonin levels can be influenced forcibly like that.

It's melanin, not melatonin. Melatonin is a hormone primarily released by the pineal gland that regulates the sleep–wake cycle. Melatonin tablets and creams are widely available.

[–]transwoman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Whoops. That was a bad typo on my end. Just edited it for clarity's sake. Thank you.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That is correct. Race has no basis in biology. I have Irish and Scottish ancestry as an example, but I have more in common genetically with people from Africa than I do people from Ireland and Scotland. That would take a novel to explain (science, Biology, how we all came to be, etc).

The thing is, you as one trans person do not represent the whole. That is logically fallacious. That is like Blaire White saying only TRA harass and threaten lesbians. Total lies. I have been stalked and worse by your people 100%. Never ever one good experience, not one. You would probably chase me too if you saw me. Because I validate you. I digress.

Have female not been through historically massive oppression? We still are. I am a lesbian, but to the male, I am meat. I am a slave. I am nothing but a vessel for a seed. Baby maker. I am a flesh vase for a dick flower. No different for trans. I am seen as a fetish, a prop, and several hundred times I have been messaged as such.

I am highly offended you would post here. I certainly never posted in MtF in reddit, even though I could call out specifically which of your users stalked me in person who saw me on dating apps--call out your crimes.

It is disgusting you think larping me is't oppressive, abrasive, or an insult to my entire existence, my experiences, as if, a dress means what?

Again, you are logically fallacious and quite arrogant of you to presume your thoughts, identifying yourself as trans, means you hold light on any of this. Unreal.

[–]transwoman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Never did I say that I represented the trans community, in fact I emphasized throughout my comments here that the majority of the trans community is a problem. I expressed my solidarity for the oppression people who are female have experienced for centuries upon centuries, and by emphasizing the significance of systemic racism I did not mean to undermine the experiences of and systemic oppression experienced by natal women, nor make it appear as of lesser importance.

Being trans, I felt I could offer something in this discussion about transgender vs transracial. I respect what GC is doing and had a good discussion with a few people on here, but clearly whatever I say to you will never be good enough, so you will not be one of those people I'm willing to have an open discussion with.

I did not mean to overstep any bounds, and I stated at the start that if I'm not welcome here, that the mods can remove the comment, or ban me from posting. I understand why you lashed out in anger to this, however, and I hope you are able to find peace.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If one tg would not stalk me thinking I was the holy grail because you all can "finally wear heels" and "be the little spoon" and think we are getting married tomorrow, I would (have peace). I am seen by tg as a prop, as a disposable wash cloth. As a fetish. As a character of the story in your head, of you wanting to be with someone of larger stature, to make you feel more valid, to ease your dysphoria and increase your euphoria. I have been flat out told, I am chased for this. By many, not just in one country either. I have been asked to be a domme, a giantess to step on you, to hit you.

I have only been seen as a piece of meat fetish by any transgender who has contacted me on any dating app, or at events I have been to--several hundred. Some have "transitioned" and are business owners, and work in professional areas.

Why would your people treat me like that when the largest complaint of any transgender on a dating app is being seen as a fetish?

If you are single and on a dating app, I bet all the money I have--you probably saw me and wanted to match with me because of my heights, my looks, my hobbies, who I am, and you see me as some playing card to collect. People think because they have degrees and had surgeries their behaviors are OK. NOT OK. I am not here to ask for pity. Psychology is one of my degrees. I am here to share personal experiences, as a warning to women. Several hundred trans stalking me in person and attacking me for rejecting them, politely, is a statistically valid sample of the population. In a statistics class, we would call,this, p<.0005 and statistically significant. It might be convenience sampling, but so be it. I have had to relocate, change my phone, and more. I supported you. I marched with you. I participated in fundraisers, and you know what? For a time I thought, I would date you. I am a lesbian and there was a time, I became friends with, very close with a few even. And I was drinking that koolaid. Until, people snapped on me weekly, because of their withdrawals from estradiol injection not being "enough".

You are ALL the same. You have all talked to me the same, every time, using the same phrases. Taking estradiol for you, was going from black and white to color, was it not?

I was asked to do weird things, and call you "the woman" and "make you my woman" and wear heels, and not to wear makeup so you could be more valid.

NO standard male has abused me in the way trans has, and that is saying something.

I have no empathy for you.

I have no friendship for you.

Once I did, and I helped you, and I had serious friendships, and I thought, yeah, could I date you?

I do not have a phobia. A phobia is an irrational fear.

I have so many lived experiences.

Peace for me would look lke trans having their own bathrooms.

Peace for me looks like you having your own sports.

Peace for me looks like you not being a whiny NPD DSM V terrible rotten person who stalks.

Peace for me is you leaving everyone else alone.

Gay people just wanted to live their own lives, away from others, in peace.

Trans wants to rape the world, politically, economically, socially, emotionally, and violently so.

I am literally relocating to a Republican stronghold conservative area to escape the likes of you.

I am not even republican! I would rather deal with hillbilly men than trans.

[–]brink 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wish you hadn't deleted your account, because your comment resonated really strongly with me. The most abusive relationship I have ever had was with a man who identified internally as a woman. Never again.

[–]pertinaste 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think the same thing applies to skin color vs race. Skin color is a biological reality, and race is a concept that's culturally and societally influenced

This would be very clear to people if Americans just started calling what they're talking about "ethnicity", as the rest of the world does, rather than "race".

That being said, I'm not really aware of the surgical or medical processes by which someone can change their skin color

Two points here.

  1. Skin color doesn't matter. DNA doesn't even matter. Virtually all African-Americans have European admixture in their genome. The average is probably 40-50%, and it can reach 90% or more. So in terms of skin color and genetics, this population would be more correctly characterized as "Afro-European Americans". And yet, they're still a cohesive and coherent demographic group, precisely because skin color and DNA don't matter. It's all about how people classify each other, and in the US, the one-drop rule still operates, among both Blacks and Whites. In Brasil, these two populations would be more like a dozen different ones, which just reinforces the idea that this is cultural and not genetic.

  2. Skin color can indeed be changed. Michael Jackson is the most famous example. John Howard Griffin is another.

I think the truth is that we are more hesitant to accept the idea of transracial people due to the massive amount of historical oppression that have been placed on people of color for centuries through imperialism, slavery, segregation, and overall, systemtic racism.

It's now common when you bring out the transgenderism=transracialism point for one or more people claiming to be Black to say that you have no right to make this comparison, that you're a racist for doing it, and so on. In fact, I strongly suspect the people who say this are trans activists, simply because there is nothing offensive in making such a comparison, and --most importantly-- the transracialism argument is the silver bullet that destroy all trans arguments, so no efforts must be spared to take it out of circulation.

[–]transwoman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree, ethnicity is probably a better word to use. I think the term race is so prevalent simply due to the fact that the United States was built on imperialism and racism, so the language becomes a little unclear.

Thank you for the info regarding skin color as well as examples of those who have. You're right to say that skin color itself shouldn't matter, but it's the arbitrary classifications of ethnicity/race that are the source of the problem.

I also agree that the people who accept transgenderism but not transracislism are probably being intellectually dishonest and inconsistent logically speaking. Both ideas are highly similar, and one cannot be considered without the other, in my mind.

Thank you for reacting kindly to my comment by the way. I appreciate those who are willing to have open discussions, and I think that more discussion like this are needed. People such as yourself who respond in a good faith manner have really changed how I perceive GC as a whole.

[–]Criticalofgender 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hi! First of all, thank you for taking the time to reply this question from your point of view. I don't really agree with your opinion because reality is not based on one's individual perceptions and/or feelings but on material proof that exists whether or not we want to believe it. I think wanting to be part of the oppressed class it's an invention created by the West and privileged individuals that don't understand these daily struggles, and tbh, they will never be able to understand it. Maybe you're not very comfortable being here and I totally understand if you don't want to, but I think maybe it would be interesting if you created a new post here like an "ask me anything". Anyways, appreciate your contribution to this debate!

[–]transwoman 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hi. I appreciate your kind response! I feel like I might be overstepping with an AMA on a GC forum, I've already offended a few people just by commenting here, so it's probably for the best that I don't do that. But I'm grateful for your respectful response regardless of our disagreements, it means quite a lot ☺️

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm happy to see a diversity of views, though I think so long as it's understood this is first and foremost a woman's space, and that they will be given priority / it has its own mores that need to be respected.

THAT SAID - Have you been here?

The people there are desperately seeking trans Susans (If that makes sense). It's a wonderful forum and I would love to see you there.

[–]divingrightintowork 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I would give this a read, "In Defense of Transracialism," it showed up in Hypatia -

And look up the reaction to it, much of it bullshit - TIMs saying things like "Rachel Dolezal can just wash her blackness off, I Can't wash off my transness," (clearly timmy never heard of 'boymode' ).

[–]BEB 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I absolutely agree that the TIM "argument" about not being able to "wash off their transness" is bullshit. More than bullshit it's DARVO

Because women, no matter how we dress, no matter how we change our appearance (unless we pass as men, which is pretty much never, even TIFs don't usually pass in person), can never identify out of our oppression. Neither can Black men.

Guess who can? Guess who can simply change their appearance and their "oppression" disappears?

What happened to the author of that piece "In Defense of Transracialism" is shameful - the academic pile on, Hypatia's reaction - whereas most normies would think that the piece was spot on - what is the difference between claiming to be a different sex versus claiming to be a different race? The former is based on hard science whereas race is truly based on perception.

It's Clown World now.

[–]anonymale 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

From the article:

I suggest that Dolezal offers an important opportunity for us to think seriously about how society should treat individuals who claim a strongly felt sense of identification with a certain race. When confronted with such an individual, how should we respond?

The Lakota nation declared war on them, after decades of their and other nations' polite requests to new agers and hippies to leave them alone went unheard. The resulting howls of narcissistic rage should be very familiar to GCers. (NAFPS stands for New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans, a long-running project dedicated to documenting and combatting cultural appropriation).

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The parallels are uncanny, that's for sure..

You could just as easily paint that as a bunch of Tim's mocking Vancouver rape relief shelter

[–]anonymale 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The para-esoteric Indianess of Plastic Shamanism creates a neocolonial miniature with multilayered implications. First and foremost, it is suggested that the passé Injun elder is incapable of forwarding their knowledge to the rest of the white world. Their former white trainee, once thoroughly briefed in Indian spirituality, represents the truly erudite expert to pass on wisdom. This rationale, once again, reinforces nature-culture dualisms. The Indian stays the doomed barbaric pet, the Indianized is the eloquent and sophisticated medium to the outer, white world. Silenced and visually annihilated like that, the Indian retreats to prehistory, while the Plastic Shaman can monopolize their culture.

Dagmar Wernitzig, Europe's Indians, University Press of America, 2007, cited in Wikipedia's article on plastic shamanism

[–]lunarenergy8[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am actually working my way through it right now! Super interesting and definitely forcing me to think a lot and continue learning and I also wanted to get an idea of what people here think abou it. I have read so many backlashes to this article, and to transracial in general that are either just super weak (ie it sort of offends me as an individual so therefore its wrong) or are the exact same things we are saying and could apply to Transfolk.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Jesse singal wrote a great response to it here -

Basically everything people say about it is dumb and wrong or they need to really decontextualize things, and obviously do not hold theirselves to the same standards

[–]moody_ape 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

it makes no sense that TRAs invalidate the transracial argument because gender isn't biological. what happened to the female brain in a male body? isn't that about biology?

the thing TRAs love the most in the world is colonizing language. AMAB and AFAB are terms used by the intersex community to define the violence intersex babies suffer when doctors assign them male or female based not on their biological sex (which, although ambiguous, is binary), but on their own standards (a boy with a small penis is assigned female at birth, which means his penis is removed and he'll be raised as a girl).

another argument i've seen is "well, it's not the same thing. you don't see transracial people as much as you see trans poeple. trans gender/trans sexual people have existed since ever, it's a thing. transracial isn't". i think thereare two reasons for that:

  • no one really cares about women. the black movement has men and women in it, but feminism is about women. gay spaces aren't as colonized by "gay trans men" as lesbian spaces are by "lesbian trans women". it's very clear to me that if a social movement has no men in it, no one takes it seriously.
  • femininity is performative aand it is in and of itself a fetish. it is a male fantasy. of course there are some elements that some women enjoy, but that doesn't mean such elements are inherently feminine. both men and women have feminine and masculine traits. society sees men as the standard human being and women as this forced fetishized thing that needs high maintenance. now if you look at race, blackness isn't performative or a fetish. it might be in some contexts (like porn or when there is cultural appropriation), but it isn't in itself a fetish. it's not something people need to work hard to achieve. black people are born black and that's it. they don'tneed to "act black" to be accepted as black. and if someone who's not black tries to emulate black people, it's blackface, it's disrespectful (and it is recognized as such by TRAs). now if a man tried to emulate women through stereotypes, it's not considered offensive to women. it's funny and entertaining (drag), brave and beautiful (trans) - again, i'm talking about TRAs. anyone who doesn't follow gender norms is subject to discrimination by society in general.

i might be wrong, but that is my perception of things.

[–]tuesday 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

femininity is performative and it is in and of itself a fetish.

good way to describe that!

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Maybe you should post this to GCdebatesQT?

My sense is simply that there haven't been a lot of people claiming to be transracial, and the few who have don't seem to pursue any life-changing procedures because of it. Even if not all transgender people do that, at least some of them did, which gave it a level of seriousness that has now been extended to anyone who identifies themselves with the word - which not all trans people are happy about, either.

[–]Astrid2448 12 insightful - 9 fun12 insightful - 8 fun13 insightful - 9 fun -  (1 child)

Weeaboos would jump on the chance to be transracial if they could.

[–]emptiedriver 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

well, probably many of them are already aiming to be young girls so they've got a mission established, and they were able to take over a previously legitimized diagnosis by adopting the name of "transgender", which had been originally filled by people who were physically or mentally suffering and trying to get treatments and surgeries to deal with it in some way [whether a good way or not], rather than people who were just fantasizing.

I don't think there are many people who are actually suffering due to a dissociation with their race - perhaps some, but gender is an easier place to have problems dealing with your body, due to sexual abuse, non-conforming issues, orientation acceptance, basic puberty/change stuff... for those who are fantasizing, it's easier to follow those who were really willing to put up with hardship. Maybe someday race-transition could "follow" gender, but it wouldn't follow seriously suffering race-dysphoria patients.

[–]lunarenergy8[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have now - I actually for some reason didn't really think of this as a debate until you pointed it out, I just was looking for some clarity ... clearly I am a little naive. Thanks for pointing this out (:

[–]Terfenclaw 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Personally, I believe that there is an element of biological hard coding in one's sense of sex identity. Evolutionarily speaking, having an internal sense of your own sex is important for a number of different mating behaviors. Also, in cases were intersex people were reassigned sex at birth, there is an extremely large number of people who end up rejecting their assigned sex and identifying with their biological sex.

However, there's no such biological hard wiring when it comes to race and culture. That is 100% an environmentally based identity. Nurture, not nature.

[–]tuesday 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Evolutionarily speaking, having an internal sense of your own sex is important for a number of different mating behaviors.

"having a idea in your head of what kind of body you should have".

Transactivists LOVE to shift words around and then too often even people who are gc will repeat those phrases instead of thinking critically. When people have a idea in their head of what kind of body they should have, and their idea doesn't match the material reality of their actual body, we used to call that mental illness. To call it an "internal sense of sex identity" is just using their propaganda.

Also, in cases were intersex people were reassigned sex at birth, there is an extremely large number of people who end up rejecting their assigned sex and identifying with their biological sex.

In pretty much every case where an intersex baby was "assigned a sex at birth", the baby was a male DSD with abnormal genitalia and was then "assigned" to be female because the doctors figured it was 'easier to make a hole than a pole'. So it shouldn't surprise any of us when that kid grows up, realizes how badly women are treated compared to men -- and then "decides" they'd rather be in the more privileged class.

Which is why I must politely disagree with your belief that there is an element of biological hard coding regarding one's sense of sex identity. Unfortunately, that is exactly what transactivists say.