Does anyone else think feminine guys/femboys are quite a powerful force against TRAs?

submitted by bigmeaniebutt from self.GenderCritical

It seems to me a lot of men transitioning are doing so for the sole reason of freedom to perform femininity. Toxic masculinity is leading men to appropriate womanhood... imo. Femboys sort of buck this trend by aspiring and embracing femininity without conflating it with women/outside of their sex. I find supporting them is one way of pushing back against the TRA narrative. Anyone agree?

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[–]jkfinn 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What to eff is “the freedom to perform femininity?” Is this like the freedom to perform in black face, or red face? Is it the freedom to mock women?

What is “toxic masculinity?” Does this imply a sort of exemption card for men who don’t look like Hell’s Angels, but who participate just as fully in male dominance--sometimes as spies and eunuchs within feminism?

What are “femmes?” and “femboys?” Is there any connection at all between them and women? Are they more pro-women and anti-sexist than typical males? Are they “a powerful voice against TRAS?” Or on the contrary, do they represent nothing more than puffery, or a lighter forum of female ridicule?

[–]Apricot_Ibex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I also dislike the phrase “perform femininity”. I only use it negatively, as in expectations set on women and only women to act submissive, attractive to men, pornified, etc.

I see non-“masculine” men as neutral. Men are men and wouldn’t trust any one type. Gender roles are stupid and hurt women the most, though.

No men seem to be “powerful voices” against TRAs, but are any men powerful voices for ANY issue on women’s rights? Not really...only up to the point it cuts into their privilege. They just want brownie points, whether they’re woke bros or good ole boys.

Toxic masculinity includes being a domineering, violent, obnoxious dick, even if the dude is in a dress. It holds the expectation that men and women not only look but also act a certain way. Plenty of TRAs exhibit toxic masculinity....in fact, I’ve yet to see one online who doesn’t, but then again, I’ve yet to see one who isn’t seriously mentally ill as well. And they may deny it, but their male socialization always shines through.

[–]bigmeaniebutt[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I dislike that phrase too but I sadly think that's why a lot of men want to become women. To "perform" these sexist stereotypes and continue to conflate womanhood with it.

[–]Apricot_Ibex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes! Womanface, like was said above. Definitely the case for autogynophiles, I think, which is what I think most of the aggressive, violent TRAs are....autogynophilic and narcissistic. They aren’t even gender noncomforming in any meaningful sense that I can see. They just have a fetish and want to act it out, and now they’re being enabled.

[–]Apricot_Ibex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I totally agree. I know lots of men, both LGB and straight, who are not stereotypical “manly man” types in a variety of ways, from style to personality, hobbies, relationship roles, etc. and they have gotten SO much shit for it, it’s ridiculous.

This is one of my many issues with the idea that conservatives and radfems can find much common ground on gender critical issues because they see gender roles as innately biological in nature and immutable. Conservatism shames gender-noncomforming men and women both, and makes them feel that something is wrong with them.

Being a “feminine” man is especially bad, since being a woman is “bad.” Pussy, mangina, “pull the tampon out”...men love to shame other men for being a “woman,” which they think is the ultimate insult (another would be to imply they are gay by using anti-gay slurs, since gay men’s maleness was always questioned regardless of what they looked like). As you said, toxic masculinity.

“Butch” or gender non-conforming women in general are not really treated any better. They commit the “crime” of not performing femininity and catering to the male gaze. Assertive women must “secretly have a dick,” or want to castrate men, have penis envy, and on and on.

The fact that libfems and TRAs are reinforcing such antiquated ideas on gender roles is incredibly dangerous for young people, and the only way fight back is to make GNC people feel accepted by the mainstream while railing against the TRAs to protect women’s spaces and rights and ban surgeries for underage kids, etc..

The “transbian” autogynophiles are a separate category, I think, which has been discussed here many times in reference to Blanchard’s typology, which I don’t know thoroughly, but something needs to be done to assess the number of young people identifying as trans because of being GNC, and how many are men with paraphilias who are not really GNC. Just making that distinction could keep so many GNC people from being “transed” and certainly do a lot to protect women.

[–]Literallyawoman 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My bf isn’t femme but pretty metrosexual-gets clear manicures, really well dressed, orders cocktails when I usually get a beer, likes to be little spoon, etc. Honestly never thought of it until all the gender politics because according to TRAs we aren’t a normal cis couple just because we aren’t stereotypes( or bc my man is androgenously super hawt whereas I’m a “low 8 with broad shoulders” according to an ex XD

I mean most men in relationships just open up more and can be their true selves because social circles for men suffer from toxic masculinity which to a TRA makes them “feminine” which is so sad and sexist.

We distance ourselves from the gender political crowd and don’t really associate with people who would curl into a suicidal ball of goo if we mispronouned them. Men can be men and still super femme or whatever as long as you don’t label yourself a genderspecial you’re fine by me.

If you introduce yourself with a monologue on your triggers you get a tight lipped grin and I quickly make my exit.

[–]Apricot_Ibex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Where I live, vocal TRAs are a non-entity so far (thank goodness) but even slightly gender role-divergent men (such as your BF) and women will get plenty of nasty comments from church going good ole boy types. It’s “not okay” to dress or act out of the norm for one’s biological sex, or to be gay (which are 2 totally different things, but they get all lumped together). It’s not even okay to be a married woman and keep your maiden name (that’s assertive and “masculine”) 🙄. Gay teens still get thrown out of their homes and I’m sure those same parents would have stricter ideas on gender roles as well. Local politicians still want to “pray it away” etc.

With the “help” of the internet, “transtrending” is taking off to the point that I know 3 TiFs (all butch lesbians) locally. One was thrown out of her home in high school for being gay and found her girlfriend online- now they’re both TiFs. If aggressive TRAs start to take off more here, it’s going to get worse, dogpiling on top of the conservative local culture to where GNC and/or gay teens are either told they’re sinful, unnatural and will burn in hell or that they’re “trapped in the wrong body” and need surgery...this is so fucked.

[–]fuckupaddams 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with you. They don't identify as trans women for a reason, they have some sense. Breaking stereotypes, being gender nonconforming, these are powerful things. They do not make you trans. They make you a person.

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No.

[–]DifferentAirGC 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

are doing so for the sole reason of freedom to perform femininity.

I don't think so. Some are doing it because of homophobia (internal and/or from society). And and a lot of men are doing it because of fetishes, just being able to wear dresses won't get them off, they need to be treated like women, or at least like a patriarchal version of one.

[–]dandeliondynasty 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see where you’re coming from. I know a few gay and bisexual men like this, who wear women’s clothes and whose mannerisms most people would consider effete. In my experience they are not so much fellow activists as another target of TRAs. They don’t stand up against TRAs for women’s rights, but they benefit from the activism of women like us who oppose gender roles & oppose TRA dogma that a man who likes to wear a dress now and then is a trans woman and must surgically alter his body.