My 60 y.o. aunt has a TIM at her golf club. He's using the women's change rooms and registering in the women's tournament.

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[–]MezozoicGay 49 insightful - 1 fun49 insightful - 0 fun50 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Why almost always when I am reading about transwomen - they are attacking some vulnureable group of people or minors?

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 34 insightful - 1 fun34 insightful - 0 fun35 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They see it as setting their place in the pecking order, though they feel they should be at the top and want to be treated special because they have it “the worst“ and are simultaneously at the bottom (to themselves and their allies)

[–]MarkTwainiac 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Why almost always when I am reading about transwomen - they are attacking some vulnureable group of people or minors?

Coz men using the con of trans identity to horn in on and stomp all over women's spaces, sports and rights - and to dismantle and ride roughshod over safeguarding of children and people with a wide range of vulnerabilities and disabilities - is the new form of colonization.

Most men nowadays aren't as interested in invading each other's countries and trying to take over the world as so many men customarily were for most of human history. Humans have already been there, done that too many times over the course of millennia for men to get the thrill out of it they once did. And a main lesson of the modern age is that military conquests and colonization usually work out badly for the colonizers in the end.

Also, there are no new lands and cultures to "discover" any more - all the far corners of the earth have been explored, mapped and are now connected. Males can no longer entertain fantasies of finding Shangri-la over the next mountain, or beauties on that island on the far horizon. Nor can they even prove their manliness by scaling mountain ranges like the Himalayas; Everest base camp has become a trash dump teeming with people - and on days that it's possible to summit, people stand for hours in a single-file line coz there's a massive traffic jam to get to the top.

At the same time, there's no longer big enthusiasm for space travel the way there once was back in the 1950s and early 1960s. Elon Musk aside, the idea of doing things like colonizing Mars and exploring the moon lost their appeal amongst the general public quite a long time ago. By the time of the first moon landing in 1969, many earthlings - even many patriotic Americans - were no longer thrilled and wowed by the feat as most everyone was just a decade earlier. When the moon landing occurred, many people didn't even bother to watch it on TV...

So men whose lives once would've been all about seeking adventure, power and glory by taking up arms and using technology to try to take over other people's territories nowadays have little or no desire to participate in that kind of warfare IRL any more. They'd rather put on wigs, lipstick, fishnets and heels to invade and take over female spaces and sports. Much easier - & much more sexually arousing too. Nowadays, the exotic foreign lands "modern males" fantasize about and seek to enter and mark as their territory are ladies loos, female changing rooms, rape refuges, women's shelters, female prisons, girls and women's sports, etc.

But the core impulse is the same as the one that drove colonization throughout history. And that impulse, in turn, is very much related to the nature of male sexual functioning, which evolution unfortunately has arranged to be invasive, penetrative, piercing, overbearing and domineering.

[–]missdaisycan 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow, excellent take on the matter! Cynically, our words and spaces versus men's sexual arousal and conquest- boy, are women screwed.

[–]chrysthefeminist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

evolution unfortunately has arranged to be invasive, penetrative, piercing, overbearing and domineering

I look at it differently. I don't think men are doing what evolution "arranged" for them to do. I think men just veered off into freakhood, become addicted to it, and that's why the world's such a mess and men are so miserable.

[–]BEB 45 insightful - 1 fun45 insightful - 0 fun46 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

A friend of mine, a conservative, has a TIM at her posh country club. She is about as far away from liberal activism as one could get, but she, and other women at the club, have had it, and she's ready to raise hell.

I don't know why women put up with this. I raise hell. I don't want to be judgemental, but if we don't all raise hell, women are going to be inched back into second class citizenship, one tiny step like this at a time.

RAISE HELL.

[–]MarkTwainiac 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Jenner now uses the women's locker room & shower facilities at his conservative golf club in CA. A golf club that IIRC did not admit women at all until relatively recently. And which, like many private golf clubs, probably still has rules that discriminate against women - such as not allowing women to play at all during certain weekend hours when male players are most likely to want to hit the course, and/or to allowing women to play during the most popular hours only if they are playing as part of a foursome that has at least two men.

[–]BEB 29 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 0 fun30 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Don't get me started on Bruce "The Hardest Part of Being A Woman is Figuring Out What to Wear" Jenner... grrrrrrr.

The only good thing "Caitlyn" has done is single-handedly Peak Trans half the world.

BTW: I heard that his lady parts still include a dick. Maybe we could ask the poor women who now have to share a shower with her if she still has a penis?

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, after telling the world that we can't ask a TIM whether he's had "the operation" and claiming he did get the snip, he's since admitted that he didn't remove his dick, he just "retired it."

[–]LesbiSilly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Make that third-class. Because it's Men> Transwomen >Transmen and women.

[–]jelliknight 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

They absolutely should! keep us updated, i want to know how they go.

I suggest taking a page out of Man Friday's book. Have the ladies all walk into the mens room at once when they know it's full, "identify as men" for the day, and get as undressed as they're comfortable to (while hogging all the stalls etc).

Make older white men pay the price and watch how fast the rules change.

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think they'll just complain to the management together, and a lot of these women are very wealthy and powerful in the state so the management will bend over backwards. This is in a "Red" state, so there are a considerable amount of people the gender madness hasn't reached yet, and I don't think men in ladies' locker rooms is legal yet either.

I'm not kidding that I am going to request an escort in public bathrooms and locker rooms. Not that it matters, but I have been victimized in a single-sex space before, so am completely justified in my fear of men in women's spaces - and I will tell the company that.

Also, if other Americans want to join me and request an escort into women's spaces, please mention the huge liability risks they face if something happens because a man has been allowed into a women's space. AFAIK, In the US you can get serious money if the company endangers you.

Let's make $$$ off this madness! JK

[–]jelliknight 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Get the husbands to complain too, if they're members as well. Men could get away with some old school bigotry "I don't want no nancy queer looking at my wife undressing!"

Absolutely you should demand it. Hell, everyone else gets to make INSANE demands based on their feelings while your needs are perfectly reasonable, so demand whatever you want. I like the idea of hiring old timey bathroom attendants to monitor the trans and make sure they toe the line.

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If we all demand an escort into former women's sex-segregated spaces it would eventually cost corporations so much that they would demand the government revert back to biological females only.

So let's all do it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I just wanted to share that it's not just teenagers and young women who are having their sports taken away from them. This is a retired woman who just wants to get amazing at golf and now knows that this guy will likely take a top three spot by the end of the season.

Actually, a lot of the male incursion into female sports under the guise of "trans rights" has been occurring at the masters and senior levels all along. Ragehell McKinnon, for example, competes in masters track cycling.

In fact, since the majority of males have transitioned and continue to transition when they are already well into adulthood - many during or well beyond middle-age like Jenner - they don't have the option of trying to horn in on girls' and young women's sports the way Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood have done in HS track in CT, and CeCe Telfer and June Eastwood have done at the college/university and NCAA level.

Fencer Greg Kocab began competing in women's events as Elizabeth in 2010 at age 58. A lackluster fencer in the male division, in the female division Kocab immediately started cleaning up. Kocab won the gold medal in 2010 at the North American Cup (veteran’s, 50-59), numerous US and international gold medals in 2011 and 2012, and took the world gold medal for veteran women in 2011, the bronze in 2012, and gold again in 2013.

Kirsti Miller, Caroline Layt, Lana Lawless, Lauren Jeska, Janet Furman Bowman, Joanna Harper are just some of the males into or well past middle-age who have been competing in adult and senior level women's sports for many years.

Here's Caroline Layt, a once "totally macho" male built like a proverbial brick outhouse, who now in his mid-50s is competing in at the most elite level for his age group - the World Masters - in women's track/athletics, after successfully playing women's rugby in Australia & being a finalist for "woman player of the year."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3784883/I-totally-macho-Former-rugby-player-talks-life-transitioning-woman-reveals-used-dress-secret.html

https://savewomenssports.com/the-males-in-female-sport

[–]MezozoicGay 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Someone linked me this nice site recently: http://boysvswomen.com/#/

Boys from school versus women olympic finalists and champions.

[–]oofreesouloo 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow. Just wow. I keep peaking.

[–]Baileyscheesecakes 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just curious, when he goes into the changing room or if women come in when he is already there, do the women leave or do they just put up with it?

As for the tournament, maybe women could quietly arrange their own, private contest.

I keep hoping this whole mess will blow over!

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Organize a charity golf tourney for a period supply nonprofit, :)

[–]soundsituation 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I'm somewhat surprised that the women of that age and generation are putting up with such an intrusion. I'm a longtime competitive runner and these stories infuriate me - and I hate to say it but I don't think the sports' governing bodies are going to intervene on our behalf. I think it's going to take some organized passive resistance to end this - something like every woman withdrawing from the competition and/or, as another poster mentioned, regrouping to holding their own. It's terrible that the onus has been placed on us in the first place, but women need to stop being so nice.

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I'm somewhat surprised that the women of that age and generation are putting up with such an intrusion.

I dunno if it's fair to say that all "women of that age and generation are putting up with" this shit. Many have been actively fighting it for years and decades, others just swallowing their rage and distress - like Chris Jenner did when Bruce went trans.

Fact is, tons of "women of that age and generation" have been dealing with autogynephilia and the MtF trans phenomenon because so many such women have been married to AGPs or know them in other contexts - eg their brothers, co-workers, fathers, sons, neighbors were/are AGP cross-dressers. I honestly don't know a woman in her 50s, 60s or 70s whose life has not been affected by male cross-dressers and who've never encountered any.

Amy Bloom wrote her article on male cross-dressers and their wives, "Conservative Men in Conservative Dresses" in 2002. Most of the couples featured, IIRC, were in their 40s and 50s - so they'd be in their 60s and 70s today. This type of male behavior is not new. All that's new is the boldness and social acceptance of it, and the preposterous idea that these men were "born in the wrong body," have been female all along, are actually women, and now constitute the most vulnerable, oppressed and important minority group in our culture and society.

[–]SameOldBS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, once they'd have been seen as deviant, now they're seen as heroic.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yup, guys with these proclivities have always been around. Now they've just been rebranded as "stunning and brave" and "the most vulnerable and oppressed" - as if.

These men have pulled off one of the most successful long cons and propaganda campaigns in history. Mao had his "little red book." The new Mao is a TIM in his "little black dress" with a "strong red lip."

[–]soundsituation 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

That's a really interesting point, but I don't think it's accurate to call it an equivalent problem. Cross-dressing and gatecrashing women's sports are not even remotely the same thing even if they're sometimes perpetrated by the same types.

I can't say it's ever happened to me or anyone I know, but I imagine that having a loved one come out as AGP would be a very emotionally ambivalent experience, for a woman of any generation. It doesn't necessarily violate anyone's rights, although I realize it very easily can and often does. Men in women's sports is a lot less emotionally fraught and a lot more cut-and-dry, ethically. Believing that a man can be born in the wrong body, and that by right of gender identity he now should have access to sex-segregated female spaces and sports where he'll have a host of physical advantages...yeah this seems like more of a Millennial/Gen Z ultrawoke stance, not something I would expect many Boomers to entertain.

Then again, this is just one anecdote, and as you said, certainly not all people of a given demographic will hold the same beliefs.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I can't say it's ever happened to me or anyone I know, but I imagine that having a loved one come out as AGP would be a very emotionally ambivalent experience, for a woman of any generation. It doesn't necessarily violate anyone's rights, although I realize it very easily can and often does.

If it's not happened to you or anyone you know, please don't make blanket claims that when a male "loved one come(s) out as AGP, it would be a very emotionally ambivalent experience" - for whom do you mean exactly, his mother, his gran, his aunts, his sisters, his female partner(s), his kids? - and "it doesn't necessarily violate anyone's rights" - by which I suspect you mean "anyone else's rights."

Please study up on AGP, and how it always starts with adolescent males violating the privacy and personal boundaries of female relatives and/or household members so these boys can steal/borrow the underwear and other intimate items (hose, menstrual products, nighties) belonging to their moms, grans, aunts, sisters, etc to use them as masturbatory aids. How is that you can't see that males who sneak into their female relatives rooms and drawers to steal/"borrow" their personal items to jerk off in/into are violating the rights of these girls and women?

Please read about the the experiences of "trans widows" and kids - partners and children of AGP men who eventually demanded to be seen as women and fucked over their families in the process - as well as the experiences of AGP males who decided not to claim to be trans and are honest about the boundary, privacy and dignity violations they committed against the girls and women in their lives when they indulged their paraphilia.

You really think Bruce Jenner's experiences of sneaking into his pubescent daughters' bedroom when they were out to try on their underwear coz it gave him a hard-on did not violate their rights? And that what he did to the older stepdaughter who caught him but whom he forced into secrecy "coz it will destroy your mom and our marriage" was not a violation of her and her rights? And that what he was doing wasn't a violation of his wife Chris's and his other wives' boundaries, dignity and rights?

this seems like more of a Millennial/Gen Z ultrawoke stance, not something I would expect many Boomers to entertain.

Fencer Greg Kocab began competing in women's events as Elizabeth in 2010 at age 58. A lackluster fencer in the male division, in the female division Kocab immediately started cleaning up. Kocab won the gold medal in 2010 at the North American Cup (veteran’s, 50-59), numerous US and international gold medals in 2011 and 2012, and took the world gold medal for veteran women in 2011, the bronze in 2012, and gold again in 2013.

Born in 1952, Kocab most definitely was a boomer. Kirsti Miller, Lana Lawless, Lauren Jeska, Janet Furman Bowman, Joanna Harper are just some of the males boomers who have been competing in adult and senior level women's sports for many years.

Here's Caroline Layt, a once "totally macho" male built like a proverbial brick outhouse, who now in his mid-50s is competing in at the most elite level for his age group - the World Masters - in women's track/athletics, after successfully playing women's rugby in Australia & being a finalist for "woman player of the year." Layton was born in 1966, just two years outside the baby boomer generation - officially generation X.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3784883/I-totally-macho-Former-rugby-player-talks-life-transitioning-woman-reveals-used-dress-secret.html

Kirsti Miller, Lana Lawless, Lauren Jeska, Janet Furman Bowman, Joanna Harper are just some of the many males boomers and generation X members who have been competing in adult and senior level women's sports for many years. These men are the ones who came up with the con of

Believing that a man can be born in the wrong body, and that by right of gender identity he now should have access to sex-segregated female spaces and sports where he'll have a host of physical advantages...yeah this seems like more of a Millennial/Gen Z ultrawoke stance...

Your contention that this is mainly "a Millennial/Gen Z ultrawoke stance" and phenomenon is not supported by the evidence.

[–]soundsituation 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

If it's not happened to you or anyone you know, please don't make blanket claims that when a male "loved one come(s) out as AGP, it would be a very emotionally ambivalent experience" - for whom do you mean exactly, his mother, his gran, his aunts, his sisters, his female partner(s), his kids?

Yes, potentially all of the above, or anyone in a close relationship with the person with the paraphilia. Typically, when someone you love and have known for years, perhaps decades, reveals something disturbing about themselves, it causes cognitive dissonance and emotional ambivalence. You're forced to reconcile the person you thought you knew and cared deeply for with the person he's revealed himself to be. That's painful - I don't need to have experienced it personally to understand that. Contrast that with seeing some dude roll up to the starting line of your local women's 5k - not the same thing. No conflicting emotions warring with each other, unless you really do buy into the TRA fantasy of gender superseding sex. Easier to feel anger and only anger.

How is that you can't see that males who sneak into their female relatives rooms and drawers to steal/"borrow" their personal items to jerk off in/into are violating the rights of these girls and women?

You're right, this is a clear violation. What I meant before, and stand by, is that crossdressing in and of itself doesn't violate anyone's rights. Stealing someone else's property to fulfill your fetish is on another level. I still don't think this is as cut and dry as men in women's sports, however, for the simple fact that's it's not easy (perhaps impossible) to effectively legislate against. What recourse do you really have if your husband steals your underwear? On the other hand, the NCAA/IOC/etc. could easily ban male participation in female sports. Whether or not they do so, of course, is another matter, but the directive itself is uncomplicated and easy to enforce. As a wronged party, it's easier to "not put up with something" (my original statement in response to the OP) when it can be governed by realistically enforceable rules, and when there's little to no emotional compromise.

As for your historical examples of trans-identified males in female athletics, that's incredibly sad and disheartening, and I stand corrected. These days we're seeing it at all levels, from high school to college to the Olympics. Is is safe to say that that is a new phenomenon? I'm an older Millennial who played sports from grade school through college and never once did I see or hear about a post-pubescent male participating in women's events; it seems to be comparatively rampant today.

[–]whateverneverpine 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What I meant before, and stand by, is that crossdressing in and of itself doesn't violate anyone's rights.

Has anyone met a cross-dresser in real life who was NOT involved in violating the boundaries of others, especially women? Gaslighting, etc. Because I haven't.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, I've met male cross-dressers who were not involved in violating others' boundaries, particularly those of women. In the 1970s and 80s when androgyny was all the rage, there were quite a few of those blokes about, such as Marilyn Peter Robinson.

[–]whateverneverpine 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In the 70s and 80s? Irrelevant to the current situation.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In the 70s and 80s? Irrelevant to the current situation.

Why is it irrelevant? You think basic human behavior changes so quickly that what happened 40-50 years ago is irrelevant? You really don't believe history matters? You've never heard the ancient proverb "coming events casts their shadows before"? Or "the past is prologue"?

Also, as a point of fact, I was replying to the following question of yours, in which you did not put a time-maker or give any indication that it was restricted to a particular period:

Has anyone met a cross-dresser in real life who was NOT involved in violating the boundaries of others, especially women? Gaslighting, etc.

Finally, you might want to reconsider responding to people by saying "irrelevant!" This seems to be a new knee-jerk rhetorical device employed by younger people for the purpose of writing off/blocking out info and POVs that don't fit with the pre-arranged narrative(s) in your head(s). Like calling people Nazis and saying "you're trash!"

[–]whateverneverpine 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's simply irrelevant to the people who are dealing with narcissistic TIMs who don't respect boundaries, manipulate, lie, and bully, RIGHT NOW. We've got Trump on the right and TIMs and their supporters on the left. Exhausting.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you for your thoughtful, kind response. Perhaps I overreacted to your claim that having a loved one come out as AGP would only cause "a very emotionally ambivalent experience." This seemed (in my view) to overlook, minimize, delegitimize and erase the experiences of all the people I know who felt shocked, betrayed, lied to, deeply hurt, exploited, gaslighted, disappointed - and yes, a great deal of anger - when their fathers, sons, brothers, uncles, co-workers announced they were women and demanded they be seen, treated and referred to as such.

If you're "an older Millennial who played sports from grade school through college," I guess you're around 40? If so, please talk to some women who grew up prior to US Title IX and who paved the way for you to participate in female sports from a young age on a fairly equal footing to males. Even after Title IX was passed in 1972, women had to fight for years to obtain equal funding, locker rooms, coaches, court & rink & pool & track time.

[–]soundsituation 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I appreciate this - I'm glad I was able to clarify my thoughts.

I'm mid-30s, and I wish I could talk to some of the pre-Title IX trailblazers but sadly I don't think I know any. The women in my life either graduated high school prior to 1972 or are around my age. I'll keep it in mind though should an opportunity present itself.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I hope you won't wait until an opportunity presents itself. Go find some older women & talk to them. Like you're doing here with me. Just email 'em, DM them, call them on the phone or engage online. It's not hard. British Olympian swimmer and feminist Sharron Davies is very approachable; when I've reached out to her, she's gotten back to me within hours.

Beth Seltzer, the woman who started the US org Save Women's Sports, is your age, and she has become friends and allies with a wide array of women of all ages (and a wide variety of races/ethnicities, political ideologies, classes, nationalities) through her activism. Including me. All I did was reach out to her and volunteer to help - and now we are fast friends.

Also, when I spoke of "women who grew up prior to US Title IX and who paved the way" I wasn't referring only to women who were "trailblazers." Sorry I didn't make that clearer. I meant ordinary women too. You see, Title IX affected & involved all girls & women, not just women into competitive sports or on the front lines of the women's liberation movement.

One of the most fundamental changes it brought was giving girls equal access to school PE. Perhaps you're not aware of this, but in the old days a lot of publicly-funded schools in the US provided boys with PE starting in early primary school, but girls didn't get PE until 9th or 10th grade - or not at all. What's more, prior to Title IX, girls' PE was mostly calisthenics & exercises to preserve our figures & fight fat - we weren't taught athletic skills.

Many women who graduated HS prior to 1972 & weren't athletic nonetheless supported & were thrilled by the passage of Title IX. It took many years prior to 1972 to get the legislation written, sponsored by Congress members, taken up by the appropriate committees, ushered through the House-Senate conferences & finally passed by the House & Senate.

Also, large numbers of women who graduated HS prior to 1972 were involved in the building of girls & women's sports during the phase-in and implementation period and afterwards.

Again, please don't passively wait for opportunities to present themselves. Carpe diem and all that. Best wishes.

[–]Delia 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe they are intimidated like everyone else is. Women over seventy had difficult lives in that it was even more constrained than women like me in our sixties. They tend to use underground means to get what they want, they are not so out front. I do see the trans ideology movement as disrespectful of age as well, all part of the moral deterioration.

[–]denverkris 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Is the golf club private? If so, I don't understand how "gender identity" could be protected at a private club? Ask your aunt to talk to the club manager/director and suggest that the men's division be made open, and that the women's division be restricted to females only. That way he isn't being denied entry to anything.

If that doesn't work, tell your aunt to try to have a meeting with the other women at the club and if they can, do not sign up for any tournaments where this guy has signed up in a woman's spot.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If this in the US, private clubs like golf clubs are allowed to have membership policies & rules that discriminate against certain members based on sex. So long as membership in the clubs is voluntary. As employers, clubs have to abide by federal, state and local anti-discrimination laws, but when it comes to the club membership, it's permitted to discriminate based on sex so long as that's what the club membership wants. Hence, the continued existence of all-male clubs, and of such features as "the men's grill" and "men's smoking lounge" in mixed-sex clubs.

Also, private club managers/directors don't make the rules in such clubs. Rules are made by rules committees made up of members, and agreed to by the board (of trustees, overseers, whatever the name). In some clubs, the entire membership votes on rule changes. In other clubs, it's done at the committee and board level.

Women who are members of such a club need to organize with other female members, and with male members. Especially those with clout and $$$. A factor to consider is whether the women became members of the club on their own, and pay their dues from their own funds, or they obtained membership because they are or were married to men who were the primary applicants and will be considered the real members.

[–]MezozoicGay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

existence of all-male clubs

And no all-female clubs, I suppose?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In the city where I spent most of my adult life, NYC, there were a number of longstanding, establishment all-female clubs like the hoity-toity Colony Club. But in NYC & everywhere else, there were, and are, many more all-male clubs. Same as it ever was.

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

there were

So not anymore?

[–]SanityIsGC 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

suggest that the men's division be made open, and that the women's division be restricted to females only.

That sounds like a great idea.

[–]yishengqingwa666 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They should all refuse to enter the tournament with him.

[–]our_team_is_winning 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

All of the women need to end their memberships and stop going, and make it clear to management this is why. It might be illegal for management to do anything at this time, but if they lose ALL of their members, it will hurt them financially. THEN they will lobby their politicians. Do you want thriving businesses that pay taxes or should we just close up shop? THEN a totally private, by invite ONLY rival golf club needs to start up so the women have a place to go. That's a LOT of steps, I know, but we need to show how serious we are. Men in women's spaces is NOT ok.

[–]missdaisycan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But that's not how it works. No one will care if the women walk out; men would prefer them to. Women had to fight hard to gain access to these clubs, and you suggest just shoulder shrugging, and walk away? Any idea what it costs to build a golf course? A golf club isn't just a group of people, it means the facilities, greens, clubhouse, pro shop, etc., with all the supporting staff, you know.

[–]our_team_is_winning 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I get that, but if the law says you can't kick the TiM out, which would make the most sense, then what is your legal option? If politicians are going to come up with these laws that make men "women," undoing these laws is all we can do. And that could take decades, if it happens at all. Maybe a millionaire should buy and donate a private golf course. I don't know. I feel trapped by this insanity.

[–]LesbiSilly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

YES! Money talks!

[–]AdultFemaleHuman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Really, really awful. I feel despair and horror on reading these stories.

[–]woodrup 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There’s long been a joke among male golfers having to do with declaring yourself trans so you can play from the forward (“Ladies”) tees. There you have it. So now he can shower with the women and beat a bunch of his male competitors. Win-win.

[–]LesbiSilly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In all honesty, the one hope I see in saving our same-sex spaces is that orthodox religions won't stand for this crap.

[–]luckystar 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are there change rooms at a golf club? I didn't know that. Sounds like an awful situation for your aunt.

[–]missdaisycan 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oooh, you've never seen the 1980 movie "CaddyShack"! Dumb, but it was a big hit. Bill Murray, Chevy Chase, Rodney Dangerfield, cute animatronic gopher.

[–]LesbiSilly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am so sorry for your Aunt. It sucks. Let her know she's not alone. Hugs

[–]jelliknight 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Can you go to a newspaper and do it anonymously?

Its sucks for your Aunt. In most places, we still do have legal SEX protections under the law, and the 'gender identity' guidelines haven't been legally challenged yet. There may be a women's group near you that you can get advice from.