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[–]cinnaflo 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transgenderism is unnatural because gender is a social construct and hating your body to the point of wanting to chop parts of it off is a mental disorder. You need to remember that right wing people don’t like transgenderism for reasons different from ours. Their arguments range from their Christian beliefs (“God doesn’t make mistakes/Mutilating your body is an act against God” to traditional sexism, “women are supposed to like feminine things, men are supposed to want to be masculine”). Of course there are some reasons that overlap with gender critical ideas like “people being GNC doesn’t make them the opposite sex”. But that doesn’t make radical feminism right wing, not one bit.

Currently within the trans movement, there are tucutes and transmeds, both of which hate each other, but both are for transgenderism for different reasons. Tucutes think being GNC, women wanting to be masculine and men wanting to be feminine is all it takes to make someone trans/non-binary. That there’s no need for gender dysphoria, and that as long as you get ””gender euphoria”” for being GNC, you are trans. It’s stupid as hell. Transmeds argue that you need gender dysphoria to be trans. These people, I believe have some kind of mental disorder (and I don’t mean that as an insult, I mean that these people actually need serious attention and care). If you are a bio female, and you feel like you should have a male body, a penis instead, and wish to remove your breasts, then you are trans. They also believe in sexist gender roles the same way that tucutes do, such as playing barbie dolls as a young boy makes you a girl inside, and having stereotypical “boy hobbies” as a girl makes you a boy inside. Transmeds argue that you actually have to want to go through surgeries and have a desire to pass to be trans. For tucutes, transgenderism is a purely a cosmetic thing, while for transmeds, it’s about getting rid of gender dysphoria (a mental disorder).

[–]lefterfield 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What you want to ask yourself: Does your discomfort with gender lead you to want to hurt people who accept it? Do you view them as committing some kind of offense?

Because while homophobes and racists may feel discomfort being around people who have the characteristics they dislike, that's not the only kind of discomfort humans are capable of feeling. Sometimes we (especially if we're women) feel uneasy being around violent, dangerous men. Sometimes we feel discomfort at being asked to say things that aren't true. Watch, if you can, psychological experiment videos of peer pressure - the subject of the experiment is asked easy questions (what color is this line), and the research assistants give incorrect answers. The first couple times the subject gives the right answer. But after several rounds of this, they start to doubt themselves. Eventually, most people go along with the group and start giving the wrong answers, too. You can see the discomfort in their eyes, their body language, their speech. That's quite obviously not "phobia" against anyone, but it's still a form of unease. They know something is wrong.

Same as we're experiencing with people who screech TWAW or claim that gender is real, it's important. You might go along with it to adapt to the group, but you know it's a lie. It's cognitive dissonance.

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok yes I think you are right. I’ve tried to “go over to the other side” because my now ex gf (has some bpd) was playing around with being trans. I came out strongly gc once I had my own revelations about internalized homophobia and misogyny. She wasn’t having it and kept saying “I have no problem with women, I’m just not one”. Which I had a problem with... as the more masculine one of the pair to begin with. It was like “then what does that make me?”.

Anyway I tried to see their point that GC is hateful and wrong... well, no matter how much I tried to “embrace trans identities”, it just didn’t feel right at a core level. And it didn’t feel right calling her (or anyone else) “they”.

[–]Metis 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

For me being gender critical and not believing in trans ideology isn't so much about whether gender dysphoria is innate or natural. I have no problem believing that some people suffer from it and are happier presenting as the other gender. Whether they are born with it or it's due to social contagion or a mixture of both I can't say for sure. However, being male or female is still a matter of biology as much as your skin color, hair color or whatever else is coded in your DNA is. What I'm sceptical of is the claim that sex is somehow the only biological catagory where the concept that people are born in a wrong body is valid and the only course of action is to alter your body accordingly. Transitioning to another race for example is completely unacceptable and I've seen people claiming to feel like they belong to another race made fun of. The same goes for people with Body Integrity disorder (a mental condition where people want to be amputees, they refer to themselves as transabled). Let's see what wikipedia has to say about treatment for BID: “There is no evidence-based treatment for BID; there are reports of the use of cognitive behavioral therapy and antidepressants.“ Somehow no one is denying these people's existence or literally killing them by denying their wish to mutilate their bodies and live as their “authentic self“. Even though they would actually become amputees if we applied the same treatment as we did with gender dysphoria and therefore they wouldn't have to force people to believe they were actual amputees. And don't get me started on trans species which is becoming more acceptable than people wanting to get rid of their limbs? It's all completely arbitrary and it sounds highly illogical to me that one person claiming to be born in the wrong body should be believed and supported while the other is made fun of when both are solely based on feelings that are not verifiable parameters in reality.

Now, let's assume some people indeed are born in the wrong body and accept that the best course of action is to let them transition. Why does believing that one can help these people by letting them transition necessarily mean that one must also believe that trans people are really and have always been the sex they claim to be? Because that's what I have a massive problem with - forcing others to share their belief that they actually can change sex and become the other sex and are no different from the sex they claim to be. I can verify whether someone is male or female because it is a biological reality whereas the other is only a mental reality of some people. Why does the mental reality of some people believing they really are the opposite sex trump biological reality? Why am I considered hateful and transphobic if I don't share their belief and pretend that our realities are not only completely the same but also support the erasure of my sex in everything that is related to female biology. And why is no one concerned with renaming men as ejaculators and penis-havers, why are only females and female spaces targeted? Furthermore, the sex segregated spaces we have are exactly that - sex segregated because it makes sense in terms of anatomy and biology. Abolishing these spaces in order to come off as politically correct should not be more important than protecting the people for whom they were made and who need them.

I think GC people don't have a problem with trans people but the ideology that comes with it that is misogynistic and based on outdated gender roles. I've grown really tired of people claiming their desire for wearing pink tutus is as much evidence of their womanhood as women menstruating or giving birth and therefore they should be included in spaces that are dedicated to functions of the female bodies (breastfeeding groups etc.)

Also, I am not an expert but have been very interested in the Lakota from an early age and I just want to add that a winkte was never considered a woman. They had a completely seperate role from women and no woman could have ever become a winkte and vice versa. So it's not really the same thing as being a trans woman today because no one forced anyone to believe that winktes were actually women.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Now, let's assume some people indeed are born in the wrong body

But why assume this even for the sake of argument? How on earth can someone be born in the wrong body?

This daft idea of being born in the wrong body only make sense to those who have no clue about how human conception occurs and what happens afterwards during implantation in the uterine wall, followed by all the various stages of embryonic and fetal development over the next 40 weeks, followed by all the millions of things that happen during the long course of infant and child development, puberty and adolescence. How babies are made and what happens to infants, children and adolescents as they grow into adulthood are not mysteries. It's all been well studied and well documented.

The human brain, neurological system and reproductive organs develop along with all the rest of the body. Development of brain, mind and body are all of a piece. Coz we are our bodies. We don't exist as disembodied minds apart from our bodies. And every one of the cells in our bodies from the time we are conceived until after we die contains our sex chromosomes. If we are buried and our bones are dug up centuries later, our sex will be still be clear from the shape of the pelvis and our DNA.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah i think this is the underlying thing that gets me. I am a bodyworker-in-training (cranial osteopathy/BCST and somatic therapy for repairing early/developmental trauma and attachment dysfunction). No matter how accepting I try to be, at the end of the day there is something I just can’t let go: mind/body split.

There is nothing inherent about it. It is a mental illness, a wounding. Having numerous “mental illnesses” myself (as you’ve probably intuited from my posts haha). I don’t think the term is actually beneficial or accurate when describing these compensatory patterns of suffering. “Mental illness” in itself implies a mind/body split. Kathy Kain describes this psyche/soma split as a foundational wound in our culture.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok yes! ESP about that winke point. I actually had a phase of being highly interested and self-studying Native American and tribal indigenous cultures in general. I read extensively from the Native American Renaissance and played around with learning a bit of Inuit and Lakota. These alternative cultures in tune with the sacred feminine really gave me hope that we can return to that type of way... a world in which women can literally be naked and it’s fine. I recently went to verify this as well, the bugis and some other cultures that I briefly skimmed over... first off I haven’t ever seen a culture that had a role for “lesbian” mtfs or “gay” ftms. There is no precedence for this.

Secondly, like you said, I saw no precedent for any of these “trans” roles actually being considered the opposite sex: a winkte is not a woman, neither is a calalai, etc. Buck Angel hit the nail on the head in a recent tweet “a transgender woman is a transgender woman”.

Thirdly, most cultures with more “gender” roles have a role for a feminine homosexual male... this includes the Lakota, please correct me if I’m wrong but I never heard of ftms in Lakota culture. Far fewer also have a separate role for masculine homosexual females. In many cultures this ftm role is a way women can get around limitations and oppression (calabai can go out at night and take “man” jobs).

Lastly, until very recently any tribal culture with any “extra genders” had no access to medical transition whatsoever. That must have really changed the whole game, as our modern trans movement has sprung entirely from our plastic surgery technology. I feel like that is a big thing people are taking for granted.

My personal assessment of many native cultures is that the goal was the actualización of the individual. Some things were separated by sex, but “gender” wasn’t a limitation for people the way it is in our patriarchal culture. The culture existed to facilitate the actualización of each individuals unique gifts. Even if it was a backwards person who does everything backwards. They understood that if everyone is bringing their gifts, the groups has abundance.

I feel like when genderists are looking at these cultures they are doing it from our consciousness, not the consciousness that was actually present in these cultures. Considering that in these cultures, people were so connected to the sacred feminine and embodied, hunters could sense a seal was killed when it was too far away to even see.

Anyway a bunch of good points you have. There is an erasure of women/females going on, and honestly I think the biggest reason men aren’t having the same this, is because women hate being seen as women. It’s really women pushing this tbh. It’s sad.

A lot of trans men are showing up in my dating apps. Hell, I wish I could flip a switch and live as a man. But yeah I’ve been trying to connect to my poom and have been reading this book “Pussy”. It’s been quite emotional accepting this feminine part of myself that I’ve been ashamed of so long. I’m trying to do the work of undoing the effects of patriarchy, which involves opening up and feeling a lot of really painful stuff. It involves... embracing the (sacred) feminine! gasp. Here I am emphasizing my masculine parts and not wanting anything to do with “femininity”. I just feel that TIFs have shut off from that, which is totally ok because it’s really difficult and overwhelming... but sad, and it’s no wonder women feel betrayed by trans men.

[–]SweetBabyCheeses 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

“Alice Dreger and others who research autogynephillia have shown that it is more than an erotic paraphillia, it also contains a romantic type of love. So we can’t write it off as a fetish.” What does this mean please? A romantic type of love for what? Of being the the opposite sex?

“there is a group of people who feel a desperate need to socially and medically transition and whose lives are improved by transition”. I feel like these people are living in a fantasy world. They’d be better off accepting and learning to love themselves as they are. There’s no such thing as socially transitioning unless you mean acting out enough gender stereotypes (eg for men, long hair, make-up, high heels) that some people start to try to address them as female out of politeness. Any kind of delusion that they’re “passing” is just that, a delusion. Medically transitioning is even more problematic. I don’t know how any ethical surgeon can mutilate healthy bodies. Again, it also make a mockery of female stereotypes. Even without the surgery it’s not a transition from a to b, it’s still a lifetime of daily medication?

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

“Alice Dreger and others who research autogynephillia have shown that it is more than an erotic paraphillia, it also contains a romantic type of love. So we can’t write it off as a fetish.” What does this mean please? A romantic type of love for what? Of being the the opposite sex?

Saying "it is more than an erotic paraphilia" doesn't mean it's no longer an erotic paraphilia. A cake without frosting on it is still a cake.

The romantic love these men have is love of their own selves imagined as female. Romantic and erotic feelings are closely intertwined, particularly in men.

AGP is at once a male erotic paraphilia, an expression of male narcissism and a form of usually obsessive, all-consuming romantic love of a man for himself imagined as female. AGPs either have full-blown narcissistic personality disorder, or very pronounced narcissistic traits that run deep.

Ray Blanchard has pointed out that AGPs' anger toward women and their sense of entitlement comes from their narcissism, not just from misogyny and their status as males in patriarchy. Here's another sexologist Anne Lawrence, who is an AGP "transwoman," on narcissistic rage in AGPs:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5420510_Shame_and_Narcissistic_Rage_in_Autogynephilic_Transsexualism

An illuminating twitter thread by another AGP: https://twitter.com/PeanutButterRo2/status/1083654785910427649

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A romantic love of oneself as a woman. She says it’s essentially a sexual orientation, immutable.. and similar to James cantor, she says pedophilia is a sexual orientation.

My suspicion is that these things are currently as immutable as sexual orientations because we don’t yet have the tools to heal the underlying dysregulation/disorder that caused them.

“I don’t know how any ethical surgeon can multilate healthy bodies” um... literally every plastic surgeon? Lol. I honestly feel like plastic surgery and body mod in general is out of control in our culture. I feel like it’s a way for people to exercise control over their bodies, and often points to a mind/body split.

Overall I agree with you. Thanks for your response

[–]threefingersam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I used to think of myself as open-minded. Then I realized I was being empty headed and gullible. I used to accept trans ideology without even considering the implications or consequences for women's rights. It isn't evil to question movements that have appeared so quickly and suspiciously. It also isn't hateful to state facts, although I know today's political climate is pretty shitty for telling the truth. Not to mention that "hateful" these days basically means "something I disgree with" in woke circles.

"Transphobe" is just a convenient word to shut down discussion and marks a person as a target for "cancelling" - social punishment, legal punishment and so on. If Trans people were so oppressed, why can destroy ordinary people's livelihoods so easily? Why do we have to bow down to them like they're royalty?